the aunerent Doctors of the Church he laboureth and enforceth himselfe if he can relieue it through the ayde and helpe of the holy Scripture and taketh for his first defence and weapons the second booke of the Marchabees by occasion whereoff is intreated the difference which ought to be put betweene the bookes that are Canonicall those that are Apocryph And it is in like manner declared in what authoritie reputation that booke ought to be among the Christians Afterwards although peraduenture there shal be some matters which may seeme somewhat curious vnto some men yet neuertheles shall be spokē of the Limbes as wel of the auncient fathers as of the young children that are borne dead dead without circumcision baptisme of the difference which may be betweene thē which haue ben vnder the new old testamēt as wel little as great as wel quick as dead of their condition estate We do entreate of those things very amply bicause that many do moue questions that there is good prositable necessary points to be vnderstanded for to correct many errors abuses false opinions thuching those matters which are come among the Christians Ther shal be in like manner spoken of baptisine administred by womē declared by liuely plain reasons how Iesus Christ is the onely health satisfaction of all the elect children of God how the vertue efficacie of his death pasion extendeth it selfe frō the beginning of the world vnto the ende of the same Item what is the true baptisme of Iesus Christ the remission of sinnes the satisfaction worthy of the righteousnesse of god To what ende the god woorkes doe profit the Christian What is the iudgement of God vpon the good and euill and by what means some are deliuered and other some doe abide subiect Furthermore how the iudgement is alredy done vpon euery one and whether we ought yet to attend loke for it And how Hel and Paradise doe begin already in this world when their full and whole consumation shal bee It shal be in like manner declared how the place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all to proue the Purgatory And there shall be also declared of the manner by which the auncient people of God haue prayed for the dead and for the comming of Iesus Christ and wherein the Christians may follow it without speaking against the word of god It shal be also touched how in our time and by what meanes Sathan endeuoured himselfe to establish his Purgatory and the prayers for the dead and what maske instrument he hath chosen for to do that Wee doe call this Dialogue the Hels bicause that wee doe declare how many hel 's the Papisticall doctrine hath forged for vs and the lodgings and chambers that it hath there builded ¶ THE FIFTH DIALOGVE which is called the Hels EVsebius For as much as Thomas hath reserued for himselfe one part of this day for to make his Narration and of hys owne accord hath graunted vnto mée the greatest parte therefore it is good reason that hée do begin first Wherfore I giue him the choice whether he will go before or behinde Hillarius I desire for my part that Thomas doe rehearse first the cause of his enterprise and voyage For I doe much desire to heare it and vnderstand it Thomas Thou oughtest not to be much desirous of it For thou canst not heare of me any thing which is much worth Wherefore I am well content to holde my peace if you wyll For I feare greatly that after that you haue heard mée you will mocke me chiefly Hillarius who is so expert in that occupation I beléeue that it is the chiefest cause wherefore hée so greatlye desireth to heare my wordes Wherefore I thinke it best Eusebius that thou doe procéede-forwarde and prosecute thy intent For the matters that you haue to intreat off are better then those which you can heare of mée And in hearing you I may profite but in speaking I can but spende the time the which you wil employ and best nine to a better ende And therefore beginne and after if there be any spare time I will sée what I shal do Theophilus I beleeue that we shal haue time inough Feare not thē to begin sith y thou hast alredy told vs y thou wilt not be ouer long But thou wilt make vs finde the thing good For that cause dost loue to be entreated so much knowing that the more thou refusest to tel vnto vs that we demaund so much y more we desire it Thomas I haue regard vnto another thing I consider y which Salomon hath writtē saying if a foole do hold his tongue he shal be counted wise For he compareth man to a loohing glasse or a bell y which one doth know by the sounde whether they be broken or whole So in like manner may one iudge of man in hearing him speake whether hée be wise or foolish For one perceiueth the spirit of man in his word As his figure in a glasse and one may beholde in the same the nature of him as the complection of the body in his water vrine by which it is easie to iudge what drogues hee hath in the shoppe of his braine Hillarius Thou wilt that one should saye of thée that which a Philosopher once said of a certeine man y he did sée sit at a banket which spake not a word although y all the others did put foorth certeine questiōs gaue vnto him matter inough for to speake in his course If that man saith he be a wise man hée playeth the part of a foole if he be a foole he playeth the part of a wise man. Thomas I cannot well vnderstand that matter For me thinketh that it conteineth implyeth contradiction Hillarius He giueth therby to vnderstand that euen as too much speaking apperteineth vnto fooles ideots so alwaies to holde ones peace agréeth to beasts and not vnto men Wherfore ther must be a meane kept in all things Thomas That is the same to the which I pretend And I doe thinke that I speak ynough according to the place men with whom I am And bicause y I am not wise for to speak wel I wil at the leastwise thorow silence thorow silence counterfet the wise For it is cōmonly said it is euil to speak Latin before learned men When I am with ignoraunt men as my selfe I doe speake as a Doctor especially if I thinke that I haue the moytie of a dragme or scruple more of knowledge then they But when I come before you I doe loose by and by all my babling Hillarius Thou wouldest héere very gladly make an ende But thou must first declare vnto vs that thou hast promised Thomas Sith y thou vrgest mée so much thou shalt haue it But if thou doest mocke mée bée assured that I shall haue as good matter agaynst thee for
wée sée it by experience in young children merchants gentlemen damoisels and courtiers who after that they haue tasted of such bookes are cleane out of taste cannot away with all other which are not like vnto them Wherfore I would gladly counsaile such men of so good a minde and spirite which giue themselues to make such bookes and I desire and pray them in the name of Iesus Christe and so much as they loue his honour and theirs to applie that goodly wit and vnderstanding which GOD hath giuen vnto them and that rhetoricke and gift of eloquence wherewith they are indued into some better study matter more profitable to the ende they bée not rebuked and blamed to haue abused the gyft of God against his honour and glorie For that cause I haue purposed to write after a sort which peraduenture will séeme very euilly to agrée with a Theologian to wit vnto one which wil speake of diuine letters But I thincke that when men shal vnderstand my reasons they will take my aduice and deliberation in good parte and I will leaue vnto none any iuste occasion to accuse and rebuke mée in that I rebuke others except that men loue rather to serue to their affections and to vse slaunders then to iudge of thinges accordinge to truth and equitie I haue already touched some reasons which haue induced mée to do that besides yet I wyl adde too many others The first is that I would assay to make those learne by my example which haue a better wyt then I to doe that which I my selfe cannot the whiche thinge ought not to séeme to straunge For a whetstone a whéele doe sharpen well the Iron and maketh it to cut and yet neuerthelesse it is not sharpe nor cutteth of it selfe And at the least wise I indeuour my selfe to shewe vnto those good wittes and spirites which delyght themselues in pleasaunt thinges and which occupie themselues to such vanities and matters in the which they maye exercise their vnderstanding and cloquence more to their honour before GOD and good people and to more greater profit then they doe if they will not apply themselues vnto matters to high and waightie as many haue done as well amonge the olde as the newe And if I my selfe cannot doe that which I would teach vnto others at the leaste wise I will serue them in stéede of a patterne wherein they may finde some thing for to followe Or at the leaste wise the fault y they shal finde in my manner of procéeding wyll admonishe them of the vices that they ought to auoyde in their writinges the which if they finde in my stile or in my inuention or disposition I am sure that they shall not finde in the sentence and substaunce of the matters any thing vnworthy for a Christian man For whatsoeuer thinge that it bée I beléeue that one shall finde nothing which may induce to heresie except those who of themselues doe pretende therevnto and who as the Spiders doe drawe the venym from all places and heresies out of the holy Scriptures which are gyuen vnto vs to kéepe vs from all heresie Although that I doe mocke and iest at the abuses errours heresies superstitions and Idolatryes of the Churche of Antechriste Yet neuerthelesse whosoeuer shal wel marke and consider the matter and shall haue patience to reade all the tenoure of the sentence and of the Argument vnto the ende excepte hée be of a peruerse iudgement shall bée constrayned and compelled to acknowledge and confesse that I doe not mocke or scorne of thinges which are worthy not onely of mockery but also of hatred and abhomination of all mankinde And that I doe not onely vncouer the abuses without shewing by and by the true vse of y thinges nor I doe not condempne the errours and the lyinges without shewinge the trueth that wée muste followe and wherein the faithfull ought to stay themselues And I doe not manifest Antechrist for to auoyde and to flée from him without shewing Iesus Christe for to followe him Wherefore me thinckes that those which haue their eares so delicate and cannot onely abide one lyttle woorde against the Idolatry superstition the great abuses which leade all the worlde into ruine are not rightfull Iudges but of a corrupt and peruerse iudgement For what iudgement is this to heare and sée the name of God the death and passion of Iesus Christ to bée blasphemed dayly so horribly and not to speake a woorde And to bée such an vniust and sharpe rebuker and seuere Iudge agaynst those who onely in scoffing and iesting will admonish rebuke such blasphemers They doe willingly suffer that suche men doe mocke God openly that they doe blaspheme hym without any shame That they doe tourne vpside downe all Religion the truth of Iesus Christ That they make frustrate and of none effect the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion That they doe eate vp and deuoure his poore shéepe before their eyes That they doe leade the poore soules vnto perdition eternall dampnation doe holde all the world in errour Idolatry for to destroie them altogether And cannot we suffer that vnto such mockers blasphemers of God and of men one should onely giue a little holy water of the court and that one should sprinckle them with the least thing of y world onely with some little word or saying or with some pleasant word the which can hurt no man and which is no dishonour vnto God but serueth to discouer the abuses and to bring the mouths of y faithful out of fast with the idolatry and superstition and to manifest vnto them the seducers for the health of their soules I dóe greatly meruaile of those great louers of the honour of Hipocrites Sedusers false Prophets rauishers deuourers of the poore widdowes and fatherlesse mockers contemners blasphemers of the word of God haue so little regard or care of the honour of God of Iesus Christ our Lord whom they sée daily to be crucified before their eyes and to bée spurned and trodden vnderfoote the bloud of his testament and couenaunt and yet dare not speak a woord But which is worse they wil not yet suffer that others vnto whom God hath giuen the meanes and boldneess should speake and rebuke such abuses and sacrileges importable to all good Christian hearts Mée thinkes that such people haue no iust occasion to condempne vs in that behalfe For if they are too wise and doe thincke that such things agrée not with the grauitie of their persons then let them leaue them to be spoken of the fooles sith that as men doe say they haue the priuiledge to speake all things For as for my part I would be very well contented that God would giue me the grace that I might say vnto them as the Apostles sayd vnto the Corinthians Ye are wise and we are fooles for the loue of Christ If
of the holy Scriptures is sufficient for vs yet this ought further to moue vs to confound the Infidlls when we doe see the vertue of the truth to be so puissaunt and of such force that it constrayneth Philosophers Poets and others who haue bene ignorant of the knowledge of God to confesse it and to beare witnesse thereoff Thomas But me thinkes that our Priests and Monks do much differ from Plato Virgile in y they do lodge y richest people and the great Princes and Lords sooner in Purgatory then in Hel. Hillarius Do you not know the cause There came no profite vnto Plato nor Virgile of the Purgatory as commeth vnto those beléeue that although they had any profite they were of a better conscience and that for their owne perticuler gayne they would not haue so seduced the poore ignorant people For they do shew foorth by their writings that they had a certeyne feare and knowledge of God more then we may acknowledge in these our priestes For they watche after the deade bodyes as the Rauens doe vppon carrion And if they can méete with any dead man that hath his purse well stuffed with money wherewith hée is able to paye his raunsome they will be sure to make him tell who hath eaten the fat they will put him in such a place from whence hee cannot come out before they haue taken some fat from him For they are the tyrants of tyrants and the pillers of the great pillers and Vsurers whom they will not suffer to be broiled and tormented of the Diuells but they will be their hangmen themselues take away that office from them to whom God hath giuen it Thomas They shal be theÌ„ much tormeÌ„ted by this accompt For they shal be cruelly handled in this world and also in the other after their death as they haue vexed b tormented y worlde whilst they were alyue And suffer them not notwithstanding to fall into y hands of the Diuells But I would gladly know what payne the other haue that haue committed smaller sinnes Hillarius Plato and Virgile do lodge these in Purgatory especially the simple people which haue not bene of great credite and authoritie Wherefore they could not haue so great lycence to doe euill as the others And if they had committed any fault they had not the power so much to hurt the people as the others had For the sinnes of the Princes doe not hurt onely themselues But as well by them as by their euill example they doe hurte and destroye all the worlde where the simple people doe hurt but themselues And therefore they did thinke that their sins were sanable and that they might be purged For that cause they condemned them not vnto eternall dampuation For they thought y they had not committed euils inough for to be damned that ther was some remedie to be healed Also they lodged them not at y first dash in y fields of bliseas as the other great and vertuous men who thorowe their vertue haue merited to be incontinently receiued into blessednesse and toye or in the number of Gods. Thomas Those then which were good people and which had not the power to doe so euill as the other doe go into Purgatory against their wils Neuertheles I am sure that God will not held them excused therfore For â—e regardeth the heart will and the affections and not onely the workes as the Philosophers doe Our priests differ not much from that opinion For they Cannonise lodge among the Saints those whome they doe iudge to haue bene most vertuous and holyest and the soules perfectly good the which doe fly straight into heauen and haue no néede of our good déedes Hillarius That is to wéete the most greatest Hypocrites superstitious and Idolaters those which haue done most for them and that haue best nourished and fed their fat bellyes Thomas They doe lodge in Purgatory those who haue not accomplished héere their penaunce which neuerthelesse dyed confessed and repentaunt or which do not carry deadly sinne with them but onely veniall sinnes the which may be purged by the fire For there is some remedy for those Hillarius Such is their doctrine But notwithstanding when it commeth to triall they neyther haue regarde to mortall nor yet veniall sinnes but sooner to the riches or to the pouertie It is all one with them whether the sinnes be mortall or veniall sanable or insanable so that the dead hath wherewith to paye their drougs medicines money for his raunsome and letters of grace that they make for them by their buls and pardons And as touching the poore of whome they haue no profite it is to them all one whether they go be it into Paradise Hell or Purgatory For they haue no care of the soules but onely of their purses Thomas I haue yet one thing to demaunde of thée Doe they say that there is fire in y Poets Purgatory as there is in y of the priests Hillarius It séemeth to mée that y Poets are a lyttle more reasonable and more merciful then the priests and Monks For they make not such broyling and rosting of the poore soules Thomas How then Hillarius Bicause that they haue assigned the payne a little easier and lyghter according to euery ones misdéedes For they condempne not all generally to y fire But they do make thrée differences according to the greatnesse and smalnesse of sinnes Those that haue sinned most grieuously and which are most full and stuffeâ— with sinnes and which are most earthly and most hardest to be purged béeing so harde glewed and tyed to the soule that it cannot be pluckt away nor made cleane by no meanes but thorow the fire are put and cast into the hot furnace For they must be melted all new agayne The other that are not altogether so filthy vile and that haue not their sinnes so glewed in the soule that one cannot pul them away are holden for a certeine time within the great goulfes of water for to be there washed and made cleane Ther are yet others y are lesse faultie and guyltie which haue committed but certeyne small sins that hath no neede of such strong purgation And therefore they are hanged but a lyttle in the ayre for to winde them For they néede but to haue a lytle winde for to blowe away the dust that cleaueth fast to the soule bicause of the coniunction that it hath with his body and his fleshe Thomas As farre as I perceiue they doe with the soules in that Purgatorye as we doe with our apparayle sheetes vessell and mettall For when we haue any clothes or shéetes that are dustie or whereof we doubt the Moths and Wormes we stretch them abroad and hang them vppon a pearch in the ayre for to winde and cleane them And if ther be any spot or staine that will not easely come out we wash them with water
carried to the earth vpon a goodly Béere with great magnificence and pomp the which the Satyrical Poet hath comprised in a few verses speaking of those which through their excesse and for that they follow not the counsayle of the Phisitian and kéepe not good dyet doe kill themselues saying With such like train they march before with trōpe torches bright To guyde the rich man to his graue a goodly gorgeous sight Who on a curious coffin lyes mourners beare his beere And all his friends bewayle his death with sad mourning cheere On the contrary parte if there doe dye any poore man or anye younge childe or man of small callynge they doe bring him simply with a lyttle procession and a small company and the most times in the night for the causes which already before haue bene touched and they hadde but one lyttle Flute Of which among others the Poet Statius doth witnesse it wryting of Archanorus after this manner But when poore men or children dye their buriall is not braue A lyttle Flute doth serue their tourne to bring them to their graue Sith that we are fallen into the talke of the Flute I doe remember an history that Plinie maketh mencion off of a Rauen that was at Rome who had learned to speake insomuch that euery morning he went into the open stréets and saluted the Caesars to wytte Tiberius Germanicus Drusius by their proper names and also the people of Rome For which cause he was so wel beloued that when he was dead the people of Rome put him to deathe that had killed him and made such great sorrow and lamentations that they celebrated funeralls and pompes for him so that he was carryed to the graue vppon a goodly beere very trimly decked adorned the which two Aethiopians or black Moores did beare vpon their shoulders with a great number of garlāds crowns of flowers a Fluter which played vpon the Flute before vntil they came to his graue Thomas Is it possible that the Romaynes who haue ben so greatly estéemed thorow out the whole worlde to haue bene so foolish Hillarius They witnesse it themselues by their owne historyes and you must vnderstand bicause that the deade body was blacke it was carryed by two Aethiopians or blacke Moores as he was But if they had had of lacopins Augustines or Moonkes of the order of Saint Bennet they had bene a great deale fitter for that office and so the Rauens should haue carryed the Rauen to the graue and should haue put him in the Paradise of the Rauens And doubte not that if the Rauens Dogs and Asses had wherewith to bury them and that the Priestes might get so much money from them as they doe from the rich men that they woulde spare them no more then they doe the rich and would haue no more pittie and compassion of their soules then of the soules of men I doe meruayle of nothing but of this that the Romaynes vsed rather the Flute in those funeralls of the Rauen then the Trompette sith that in all the rest he was buryed as solemly as the rich men be And what doe our Priestes If any great Usurer be dead they runne by and by to the great bell There is not a Church nor parishe but that all the belles are walking insomuch that they make a greater noyse then the Cyclopes doe with their Hammers and Mallets I would counsell them to doe as the women of the Lacedemonians did when their king was dead who did runne about the country sounding and tinging of fire pannes pots and basins as men doe after Bées when they swarme for to declare the death of their king After that the belles are once set in order a ringing behold frō all quarters do come Moonks Priests white gray blacke smokid of al colours as Owles and Shrichowles Rauens Eagles Wolues and Dogges doe after carren and they haue no néede to shaue themselues as the Panims doe for to lament and be sorrowfull For they are already shauen of themselues as the Priestes of the Babilonians Aegyptians and the Priestes of Isis are and are clothed wyth lynnen white shirts as they are They doe serue for all In stéede of Minstrells singers wéepers and lamenters And euen as those Panim Minstrells did sing pittifull and lamentable songs and the euill fortunes of men for to comfort the parents euen so haue these our Priestes and Moonkes turned the booke of Iob into suche lamentacions and complaynts Theophilus Neuerthelesse it is concluded in the counsell of Tholet that those which are called of the Lorde from this worlde ought to be carryed to their graue onely with singing of Psalmes the rather to witnesse and declare that they doe not so mourne and lament as the Panims doe then for any other thing and also to declare the hope of the resurrection Hillarius There was more appearaunce in that which the Idolaters did for they did sing in a language vnderstanded of all men if the songs did not serue any thinge to the dead yet at the least they serued somewhat to those that were alyue But the roaring and bellowing of our Priests and Moonkes doe serue neyther for the one nor the other but onely to accroche and gette to them money and to cause it to come as the Birdes to the call except peraduenture they woulde alleadge the reason of Macrobius which sayth the men do accōpany the dead to the graue with singing bicause the panims beléeue after the the soules are seperated from y bodies they doe follow that swéet harmony wyth the same goe vp to Heauen For monye were of the opinion of Herophilus Dicearchus and Aristoxenus of whom Cicero maketh mention who sayd that the soule was not altogether nothing or onely a harmony the which taketh pleasure with that pleasaunt singinge and melody and goeth wyth it And God graunt that these héere doe beléeue the soules to be immortall and that they may haue a better opinion then those had And also as touchinge the torches that the Panims carried ther was some honest cause wherfore For they carried them partly for to kindle woode that was prepared for to burne the dead bodyes withall bicause that when they were come to the place appointed ordained for the same the néerest of kin did take one of those torches and kindeled the fire as Virgile hath sufficiently declared it speaking of the burying of Misenus after this manner In mourning sort some heaue on shoulders hye the mightie beere A dolefull seruice sad as children doe their fathers deere Behinde them holding bronds thē flame vprising broad doth spred And oyles and dayntyes cast and Frankensens the fire doth seede Also in some places they haue néede of them bycause that they doe bury them in the night after the law of Demetrius Phalereus who hath so ordayned it for to correct the superstuous pompe and
only exhortatioÌ„n admâ—nitions consclatioÌ„s for the health and saluation of those that be aliue After that manner ought we to vnderstand that whiche the auncient Ecclesiasticall doctors haue written of the faythfull that dye and of the care that we ought to haue of them And if peraduenture it be so that Sainct Ambrose Crisostome Cyprian Hierome Augustine or any other the like doe séeme to haue written otherwise yet neuerthelesse they will not allow such superstition as is at this day amonge the Christians And although they should haue done it yet we are not bound to belâ—eue them without the authoritye of the Scripture We are most certaine of our side that there is no place in all the holy scripture by which one can proue that manner of dooing except one will marre and peruert the sence thereof And for to declare the same more playnly I demaund of thée what the Priestes do in the name of the dead doe they it for those whiche are in hell Eusebius Thou mayst well perceiue they doe it not For they themselues do sing that in hell there is no redemption as it is playnly declared vnto vs by the aunswer that Abraham made vnto the wicked ryche man saying that there is a greate space betwéene those whiche are in the places of blessednesse and those whiche are in hell fire vnto whom the riche cannot haue somuch only as one droppe of water for to put vpon his toungue for to coole it Theophilus Haue those who are alreadye in Paradise with the blessed any profit of their suffrages and prayers Eusebius They haue no more néede of them Theophilus And yet neuerthelesse they pray not but for those that be there and I will take none other witnes then themselues to proue it I pray thée consider and examine wel the Epistle taken out of the Reuclation of S. Iohn which they sing in their Masse for the dead marke viligently howe it agréeth with their Lugentibus in Purgatorio And how is it possible that the faithfull that dye should be rosted and tormented in Purgatorye and that they should be at rest as they sing both the one and the other speaking against themselues They sing Blessed are those which hereafter dye in our Lorde euen so saith the spirite that they do rest from their laboures But theyr workes shall follow them First they say Blessed are they which dye in the lord And who be those that dye in the Lord but the good faithfull and the Christians If they then are blessed all the other which do not dye in the fayth of our Lord are cursed Eusebius I denie it not Theophilus Wherein consisteth that blessednesse and felicitie doth not Sainct Iohn giue the reason alleaging not his authority but the authority of he spirite of God that he himselfe hath heard saying hereafter they rest from their laboures Thou doest well perceiue that they are called blessed bicause that by death they go and depart from the trauayles and wickednesse of this world and after the same doe go into eternall rest and ioy Syth then that it is so what neede they anye longer to sing Requiem eternam dona eis domine O Lord giue them eternall rest syth that they haue it alreadye For they doe not pray but for those which are dead in our Lord. Eusebius Thou interpretest the scripture for thine aduauntage and as it pleaseth thée Hillarius Eusebius is always a good Gregorianist But I do greatly feare y he shall not escape Purgatory in the ende Eusebius You shall not yet plucke it out of my handes for all that For Sainct Iohn speaketh there properly of the faithfull which haue suffred and which haue bene killed for the witnes of the truth For those haue suffred sufficiently in this world and haue had their Purgatorie and accomplisned their penaunce He speaketh not generally of all the Christians but only of the Martirs whom the greate beast hath persecuted Theophilus I agree vnto thee that the holy spirit speaketh that chiefely for the consolation of the poore that be afflicted whiche suffer persecution for the name of Iesus promising vnto them rest after the trauayles and wickednesse of this mortall life for to fortefie and strengthen them in the crosse to that end they may be more patient in tribulation and that they shoulde perseuer and continue boldlye and stedfastly vnto the ende But you can not denye but y the sentence is generall and that it comprehendeth all the faithfull For they cannot bee faithfull without bearing rightly the crosse of Iesus Christ and without hauing great paine and trauayle after whiche they looke for rest And least thou shouldest thinke that I haue alledged that place euill to the purpose I will tell thée yet farther that it maketh not onelye Purgatorie to fall downe but also the inuocation of Saincts For sith that rost from their labours is promised vnto the Saincts and that the prayers whiche the holy men make for their neighboures whilest they are in this life are comprised and contayned amongst the laboures of the sainctes we may conclude that â—fter that they haue ended the course of this mortall life and finished their combat that they rest them that laboure as well as the other For they haue no more neede but to prayse God and to giue him thankes and oughte no more to be occupied for to serue men sith that they are out of all necessitie and that they haue ended the ministry that they had amonge menne At the leastwise althoughe that it bee wée haue not in all the holy scripture example nor yét authority for to endure and léad vs to inuâ—cate them But we haue not now to debate vpon that poynt I haue onelye desired to touche the same by the waye As to the other matter touch 〈◊〉 Purgatory for to take front thee that fantasie whiche thou haue againstâ— my interpretation I will confyrme it vnto thée by the verye interpretatyou of the Priestes taken from the chiefest of the Canon of theyr Masse Marke well the Memento that they saye when they sing Masse for the dead Hillarius Peraduenture hoe will not heare thée bicause he is altayd to be excommunicatod And also helâ— daâ—e you recyte itâ— For you know verye well that it is forbidden vnder paine of excommunication to all those that bée not Priestes to reade the Canon and to recyte it Theophilus Aswell is the Alcoran of Mahomet vnder paine of death But I will not be a frayd to read it for all that if I had it For I buylde my selfe vpon S. Paul which sayth Cramine all things and kéepe that whiche is good Thomas But it is otherwise of the Canon of the Masse for it is to be feared that if the lay people shoulde heare the sacramentall wordes pronounced they woulde doe as the Priest and that thereby would come greate hurte As Clythoueus doth declare and witnes moste euidently in his Clucidatory by the example
ende that by them you shoulde satisfie for your sinnes or that you shoulde merite the kingdome of heauen and bée iustyfied For the faythfull man hath obteyned alreadye all that by the fayth of Iesus Christe whiche is our wisedome ryghteousnesse sanctification thorowe whose merite Paradise is gyuen vnto vs For that cause the holye Apostle calleth the eternall lyfe the gift of god Wherefore wée maye vnderstande that we meryte it not thorowe our good déedes but it is gyuen vs froelye thorowe Gods lyberalytie Euen as the Fathers enheritaunce is gyuen vnto the sonne not for that he hath deserued it but bycause that hée pleased hym so for that hee loued him and that hée is hys chylde and wyll gyue hym his goodes fróely Otherwyse grace shoulde bée no more grace but debte On the contrary when Saynct Paul did speako of the eternall death hée calleth it the wages of sinne declaringe thereby that man hathe well deserued it and that hée can deserue none other thinge but that that wages is due vnto hym for a recompence of the seruice that hée hathe done vnto the Diuell the Prince of this worlde euen as the wages which is payde vnto a souldyer for bearynge of weapons vnder hys Capitayne Wee 〈◊〉 then sée that the woorkes done by the chyldren of God and the seruice that the Angelles dooâ— vnto hym doe tende all vnto one ende to witte to glorifie GOD and to sanctyfie his name Euen as then the Angelles serue not GOD for to merite Paradyse of whiche they are alreadye in possession neyther for satisfaction of theire sinnes of whithe they are not entangled But onelye for the loue that they haue in GOD and the desyre of hys glorye so Gods electe doe regarde none other thinge for they are alreadye washed and purged from theire sinnes by the bloudâ— of Iesus Christ and they re hearte puryfied by the faythe in hym and thorowe the woorde that they haue hearde of hym And are already possessors of the kingdome of heaueÌ„ in hope the which is no lesse sure and certeine then if the thinge were present and that the Angels are assured of that that they haue Therefore the holy Apostle sayth that wee are saued thorowe hope and that Iesus Christ doth make vs sitte in the heauenly places And therefore when God doth chastise and cortect vs in this worlde that is as the Apostle also writeth vnto the Corinthians for to correct and chastise vs that we should not be damned wyth the worlde and the Infidels bicause that we are yet in the waye and capable of chastisment and ainendement But there is an other reason after thys lyfe héere when wee are out of the waye and néede and that wee cannot any more empayre nor amend And therefore the Lorde doth chasten vs héere as the good Father who beateth not his sonne for to haue any recompence thereby for the faulte that hée hath committed For the paine of the childe bringeth no profite vnto the Father Also he doth not beat him through rigor nor throughe mallice that hée hath to take vengeaunce of him For hée loueth him as his childe and the fatherly affection maketh him soone forget the faultes and iniuries that he hath done vnto him As it is cleerely shewed vnto vs in the Father of the prodigall childe Eusebius What hath the father then to do to chastise him Theophilus If hée knewe that he woulde neuer doe any more fault he would soone pardon him without any punishment But fearing least thorow his great patience â— gentlenesse shoulde fall agayne hee is constrained to beate and chastise him although that he doe it not willingly but it to that ende to make hym more prudent and wyse and to better aduise himselfe in time to come and that he take diligent heede not to sall againe in y fault or in any other greater The which is no more to be feared in those whome GOD hath called from this worlde Wherefore they cannot anye more rectius punishment whiche shoulde be to câ—nâ—en them as is y same of the father towards his child for to amend him But if there hée a punishment it is rather to declare the iudgement the seuerity of God towards the wicked and reprobates and to manyfest his goodnes and mercy towardes his elect As the Iudge doth condemne the traytor murtherer and other malefactors that haue deserued death not for to haue any recompence nor those vnto whom they haue done wronge and iniury For what recompence can they haue by their deathes neyther do they it for to cause them to walke in time to come more vprightly sith that they take from them their life But for to satisfie righteousnes and to mayntaine it to that end that other may take example and that they may know how auayleable it is to haue followed vertue and eschewed vice Eusebius To what purpose then doth Sainct Iohn in his reuelation say Their works do follow them what workes do follow them but the good déedes that men doe for them after their death For those that they haue done whilest they lyued went before not after Wherefore it followeth that there are some other which do profit them Theophilus Sainct Iohn speaketh it bycause that their workes do beare witnes that they are the children of god He sayth not other mens workes but theyr owne workes For as man lyueth of his owne soule and not of the soule of an other mans euen so doth the righteous man of his faith And as the righteous man lyueth of his faith not of the faith of an other euen so shal euery one be iudged according to his workes and not after those that other men shall doe For it is written Euery one shall beare his owne burthen And therefore Iesus Christ sayth by thy worde thou shalt bee iustified and by thy wordes thou shalt be condemned That is so saye thy wordes and thy workes shal beare witnes of thy heart and by them thou shalt bée iuslified that is to saye absolued declared and pronounced iust and righteous Oâ— by them thou shalt be condemâ—ned knowen and iudged worthy of death and condemnation Not that God néedeth any witnes of our workes for to know whether we are worthy of absolution or condeÌ„nation For he knoweth y hearts néedeth none other witnes but his owne But y scripture vseth such maÌ„ner of speaking for to apply it to our capacitie for to manifest declare vnto vs better the Iust IudgemeÌ„t of god which wil shew foorth y hâ—pecriâ—e of maÌ„ heart For maÌ„ how wicked soeuer his heart be he wold alwaies hide it if one put it to his own coÌ„â—câ—éce although y he do condemne it he wil not for y leaue off to aduasice brag he y le an honest man vntil such time as he he také with his wicked déed as y theefe with his steaâ—ing For he is so peruers wicked
fall into hell Or if they vnderstand it not so wherefore do they sing in the offertory of the Masse for the dead Domine Iesu Christi c. That is to say O Lord Iesu Christ king of glory deliuer the soules of all the faithfull that dye from the paines of hell and from the déepe lake Deliuer theÌ„ from the Lions mouth least the in hell he deuour theÌ„ lest the they fal not in the obscure dark places but the S. Michel the standard bearer do represent theÌ„ into the holy light which of late thou diddest promise vnto Abraham and to his seed Thomas Mee thinkes that this is repugnant vnto that which Eusebius hath spoken before and to that which the Priests do sing saying that in hell there is no raunsome nor delyuerance And yet nenerthelesse they pray here in that oâ—fertory vnto Iesus Christ that he wil deliuer them from the paines of hell It must then needes follow that eyther their prayer is vaiue and that they demaunde a thing of God which they do very well knew to be impossible and contrary vnto his will or that there is aswel deliuerance in hell as in Purgatory and that they speake against themselues or els that hell Purgatory be al one thing Eusebius Thy disiunetiue is not good For not withstanding the commonly men take hell for the hell fire and the place of the dampned yet neuerthelesse it may bee vnderstanded more amply for that low places and cositries the estate condicion of the dead after this manner his signification shall comprehende contrine also the Purgatory as it doth in this place here Hillarius We muste then expounde it of the paines of hell that is to say of the paines of Purgatory Eusebius It cannot be vnderstanded otherwise Thomas And what shall we vnderstand by the deepe lake Eusebius The very same Thomas There is then also a lake in Purgatory Hillarius You do well Thomas to be affrayd Did you neuer here before how the priests did pay the seriage for to haue the dead passe ouer It is then necessarye the they haue their fery man Charon for to let passe repasse the soules aswel as the Panims Poets had Now if there be a Charon a fery man he caÌ„not carry ouer soules without the there is seas lakes or ryuers for to caryhis boats scyfes ships barkes gallies Thomas But I am greatly abashed wherfore wée do call those that dye in the french tongue trespasses Thinke that it was bicause that they were already passed from this life in the other But as farre as I can perceiue it is rather bicause that they haue passed ouer those infernall lakes and reuers Hillarius I doe beléeue that the Christians and true faithfull people haue called their dead trespasses signifiyng by that same that the death of the faithfull is no death but only a passage for to enter into life those which are dead in the faith of Iesus Christ according to his promises are passed from death to life And therfore they are rightly called trespasses bicause the they are already passed ouer are come vnto the port of health in which they rest in ioy and consolation w Iesus Christ their Lorde hauing escaped all the dauÌ„gers the great gculfes of the sea of this world of sinne death hell But sithence the the pope hath begun to reign in stéed of Iesus Christ the he hath take the office of Pluto the god of hel of Eacus Minos Rhadamantus and Neoptolemus the infernal iudges as a newe king hée would chauÌ„ge the laws estates habitations maÌ„ners of huing of his subiects the be dead aswel as of those y be aliue endeuoreth himselfe w all his power strength to abolish put out the laws ordinances institutions holy CanoÌ„s inuiolated decrées which Iesus Christ hath giuen aswel to the liuing as to the dead by his prophets apostles passed confirmed ratefied sealed by the arrest of the celestiall beauenly court by the great counsell wisedome of god of the holy trinitie of the father the sonne the holy ghost of all the angels archangels Saincts Sainctes patriarkes apostles Euangelists Martirs Confessors Mirgins to the end y the faithful without any other should haue place in heauen in earth in hell Theophilus He woulde do vnto Iesus Christ as the Romaine Emperors the Popes haue done many times the one against the other making frustrate boyd the which their predecessors haue made ordeined For in asmuch as they haue made Iesus Christ the first pope S. Peter the seconde I thinke the it seemeth good vnto theÌ„ the aswell they maye abrogate make boide their ordinances as they haue done those of other Popes their predecessors changing most ofceÌ„ times the that the first haue ordeyned making frustrate their counsels decrées especially sithence the time of pope Stephen who made boide al the which Formosus his predecessor had don But they do in that great wrong vnto Iesus Christ that sitheÌ„ce he is risen againe there are so many popes risen vp in his place For they wil not suffer that one should choose another whilst they are aliue or if that be done they call him antipope the is chosen in spite of their bearde and hold for scisinaticks aswel him as those that haue chosen him which are Ioyned w him They call him antipope who setteth himself against him wheÌ„ they estéeme to be the true pope eue as we set antichrist against Christ Sith theÌ„ the Iesus Christ is rise froÌ„ death he is immortal shall dye no more but shal abiee dwel eternally with his churche of which he is the only head according to y promise y hee hath made to his disciples saying beld I am with you vntill the ende of the world For asmuch also as that great heaâ—â—nly father of whom proceedeth all fatherly loue y is called y olde aged of whom Daniel speaketh off he hath giuen vnto him al iudgment power seigniory both in heauen in earth hath made him to be called by his prophet the father of the world to come Prince of peace willing y in y name of Iesus should euery knee how both of things in heauen things in earth and thinges vnder the earth I am greatly abashed froÌ„ whence this ouer boldnes rashnes should proceed to create those other popes then he sith y he is alwayes aliue y he is the Lord of y quick and of the dead and his kingdome hath nene ende Hillarius They cannot denie but that they are al Antipopes That is to say contrary and enemies to the true Hope so consequently heritickes and schismatickes For sith y Iesus Christ is the true Christ true Pope that is to say the father of y Christian Church it followeth that they are Antichrists
vnder the name and title of them euen as Saul worshiped him vnder the name of Samuel by the meanes of his old witche Is not that a great blasphemy and sacriledge to offer consecrate vnto the diuell the bodies of men whom Iesus Christ hath dedicated and consecrated to God thorow his bloud for to bee the Temple of the holy Ghost not for to be Idols that men shoulde worship them in stede of God we may very well say that these bodyes of which Sathan is serued vnder the tytle of the relyckes of saints after the manner as he was ierued before of the Images and Idolls of the panims haue not bene well coniured by the charmes witchings crosse candells encense and holy water for to driue the Diuell from them or els the all those things were nothing worth sith that Sathan hath had such power vpon them that hée hath letted them to retourne vnto the place which God hath assigned them to wyt into the earthe out of which they came and that he hath done that that hée pretended to do about the body of Moses the which he desired to set vp for an Idoll among the people of Israel knowing that God hath forbidden Images and Idolls And there is no doubt but that he had brought it to passe if God by the ministring of his Angells had not letted him and shewed his vertue and power not thorow materiall crosses holy water candells and torches encense and lyghts and other like supersticions the which Moses had not at his buryall nor all the Patriarches Pruphetes and Apostles nor yet of Prayers Suffrages nor Sacrifices after their death and yet they were neuerthelesse delyuered from the power of the serpent Hillarius You forgette the principall you speake not of the habite of Saint Fraunces which hath yet more vertue then all that which you haue declared and spoken off if we will beléeue and giue any credite vnto the Cordeliers and Nonnes For it doth not onely driue away the diuells which are about the bodye but also it quencheth the fire of Purgatory and mitigateth the paynes especially if that he which hath clad himselfe with it doe dye vpon Saint Fraunces daye But which is more it delyuereth from eternall death as the Cordeliers doe witnesse of the king of Castilia which was delyuered bicause that being ready to dye he did put on him that holy garment dyed in the same and aswell of other Kings Quéenes of whom mention is made of them in the booke of the conformities Whrfore I esteeme the lice the most happiest creatures of all others according to the Theologie of the Cordeliers For there dyeth a great number of them within that holy habite Wherefore Fryer Lewes did no wrong in callyng them the pearles of the poore But I doe much meruayle of one thing that the Lyce are more bolder then the Diuells sith that the Diuells doe so much feare that holy habite that they dare not approche and come nighe and the Lyce lodge there at their ease I should well beléeue that if the Diuells were as fearefull as the young children that they shoulde be greatly afrayde of that habite and maske at the beginning when they did see men so wildely disguysed And I thinke that if Ortis the kings Moore had bene the firste that had dyed in that habite that they woulde haue had great feare For he was as blacke as a Diuell disguysed as a Cordelier wherefore they would haue founde the same very straunge Thomas But I am wonderfully abashed wherfore they put rather a crosse in the handes of those which dye in the habite of Saynt Fraunces then in the hands of poore simple people who are buried onely in a shéete Hillarius I can giue vnto thée none other reason but that I thinke that the same is done by the permission and prouidence of God which will that men should doe vnto them honour as they customally doe vnto the euill and wicked men when they are executed thorow Iustice vnto which in many places and countryes they make him to beare a crosse in his handes chiefely the Sorcerers and Heretickes Wherefore men doe not very great wrong vnto those Idolaters which doe put theyr affiaunce and trust in an olde rotten garment to compare them vnto the Sorcerers and Heretickes rather then to the poore simple people sith that they haue declared themselues more Infidells then the other and that they haue lesse fayth and hope in the merite of the death and passion of Iesus Christ Eusebius Wherefore doest thou speake so outragiously sith that the most honeste and wise men and which are most estéemed in this worlde haue desired to dye in that habite Theophilus So much the more oughte wée to feare moste seeing that the efficacie and strengthe of Sathan hath béene so greate that the most wysest men of the worlde and those which are accompted for good and vertuous men haue bene deceyued thorowe such opinions and are fallen into such blasphemyes the which yet those wicked Moonkes are not ashamed to vpholde and maynteyne For what blasphemy was euer greater vppon the earthe as to to attribute vnto suche a Maske the healthe and saluation of soules and to make an Idoll and newe Christ not onely of Saynt Fraunces but also of his hoode and habite Whereas in déede I doe not thinke that he was euer disguysed in such sorte and that he hath bene the author of those blasphemyes of which vnder his name and tytle all the worlde hath bene filled and poysoned thorowe the meanes and practise of those false bretheren the Cordeliers which haue bene the Trompette and Bagpipe of sathan throughout all Christendome together with theire other companions But to what ende doth that habite profite the deade It maye serue for those that bee lyuing for a gowne hose bonet and hoode for to couer and keepe them from the colde Hillarius You doe yet forgette the chiefest For it serueth also vnto the Moonkes for to shewe that they are effeminated and worthye to bee taken for woemen although that by their workes they sufficiently declare themselues not to be woemen and that men doe not call them father without good cause Yet neuerthelesse mée thinkes they are repugnaunt to the Scripture which forbiddeth men to putte on woemens rayment nor the woeman that which pertayneth vnto the man And yet neuerthelesse hée which shall consider and marke well their apparayle they are lyker woemens apparayle then mens aswell those which they commonly weare as the vestements which they doe vse in their Masses Theophilus I graunt vnto thée all that but to what ende serueth it to the dead First of all what profite can it bring vnto the soule For it cannot touch it cloathe nor couer it nor yet descende into Purgatory with it The body also goeth neither into purgatory nor into hell but is buryed in the earth vntill the day of
with the bodyes of great Princes Wherein it appeareth wherevnto Sayncte Ambrose pretended For leste vs not thinke that he hath bene of an other mynde and opinion then the other Doctors which haue written both in his time before him And to this ende that you should the better knowe that I speake not so wythout reason gyue eare and marlie what other Doctors sayes which is contayned in the Decrées themselues and adioyned immediately after that which yon declared of Saynt Ambrose the which wyll serue vs for the declaration of the same and consormation of nsy worbes First you haue Saynt Gyprian who declareth vnto the Christians that they oughte not to bee sorrowfull and sadde neyther for their death nor yet for that of others saying Is it not a strainge and a peruerse thing to require that Gods wyll be done and that we doe not obey the same when he calleth vs out of this world but doe repugne and resist it and as peruerso and rebellyous seruaunts wée are brought before our Lorde with sorow and mourning and béeing colistrayned thorow the bonde of necessitie not willyngly and with a good hearte And we woulde bée honoured with heauenly rewardes by him vnto whome wée doe come maugre our selues And how many times is it reuealed vnto me and commaunded of GOD that I doe protest dayly and preath openly that we ought not to lament and mourne for our bretheren which are called and delyuered from this worlde by the Lorde sith that we know that they are not lost but are onely sent before going for to ouer goe vs euen as those doe who doe walke and swimme Vnto this also agreeth Saynt Iohn Chrisostome who in many places hath rebuked and coereted the immoderate mourninge of the Christians saying amonge other thinges I doe not forbid that we should not mourne for those which are departed out of this worlde Lette vs lament and bewayle them but not undecently and unhonestly not in tearing our haires uncouering of our armes cutting our eyes not in wearyng blacke gownes but onely in our hearte sheading foorth inwardely bytter teares Also lice doth cleerelye shewe that to lament and mourne for the deade proceeded but of wealtenesse and for wante of fayth saying In whatsoeuer place wée bee buryed in the earthe is the Lords and all things that therem is That that hée oughte to doe doth But to lament mourne and wéepe for those which are departed out of this lyfe commeth of weaknesse and for want of heart and courage And it must not be vnderstanded that it procéedeth from any other thing then of a despayre of the resurrection to come Therefore the Apostle spade not simply we would not haue you ignoraunt concerning them that are fallen a sléepe that ye sorrow not but he addeth moreouer as other doe which haue no hope It is not then forbidden vs to mourne and bewayle the deade through a compassion and affection of pietie and a regarde of humanitie as wée doe reade that some Saynts and holy men haue bewailed after Gods lawe the funeralls of others Therefore Anastacius in the same place hath sayd Those which know not nor looke for any other life haue no trust the from this world there is a place for to go vnto a better estate haue peraduenture iust excuse of their long griefe and sorrowe But we which doe beléeue and teach the same ought not to be sorry for those which dye to the ende that the same which towards other hath appearaunce of pietie and compassion be in the greater fault For that is a kinde of distrust agaynst that that euery one doth preach And immediately after is alleadged the example of Iesus Christ who bewailed not the death of Lazarus but bewailed him when he would rayse him agayne for to retourne vnto the miseryes of this world Hillarius Certeynly if we did well consider the euills which are in this miserable world and the fragilytic and misery of mans nature and if we had true sayth to the Gospell of Iesus Christ and true hope of our resurrection and of the eternall lyfe we shoulde haue more occasion to follow the custome of the Thracians then of other Danims and for a more iust occasion For if they which had not a certeyne hope nor assurance that there is an other lyfe then this héere dyd bury their friends that were dead with ioy gladnes saying that they wer bery glad that thei were deliuered from the euils and wickednesse of of this lyfe And on the contrary did wéepe and lament at the birth of their children lamenting them bicause of the euills to the which they did nâ—â— comminge into this worlde Haue not wée more 〈◊〉 cause to reioyce when that the Lord calleth us our friendes and draweth them from that darke prison for to lodge them in his celestiall Places And to desire with the holy Apostle to be dissouled so to be with Christ If we wil not followe the doctrine and examples of the holy Scriptures at the leastwise let vs not doe worse then the Panims And if we will follow them let vs follow the most reasonable and not the most maddest those of Mirsellea in the time that they were yet Panims we a great deale more modest and sober and lesse supersticious and Idolaters in their burialls and about their dead then those are now at this present time which doe follow the papisticall doctrine For the auncient massilians did bury their dead without great sorrow and lamentation The sorrow and mourning of their furenalls continued but one day without adding too any other ceremony but a domestical sacrifice and in making a banket not for the Priests but for their parents and friends But now I warrant you that the Priests will not acquite them for the price Beholde what they haue gained with the papistical doctrine which hath lesse reason then the costomes of their auncient predecessors although that they were Idolaters Wherefore it should séeme vnto them yet more honest a great deale more profitable to bring again in vse their auncient fashions maners then to follow the papistical maners But amongst others they can not finde better nor more necessary to all Christians then that which they had of late to shut the gates of their towne agaynst all Hipocrites Cagots Caphards Seducers who vnder the shadow tytle of holy Religion would lyue idelly and cate and deuoure other mens substaunce without doing any thing Their gate was not opened to such gluttons belly gods they would not admit any Religion new supersticion If the Christians had done so the world not haue ben so spoyled and deuoured by the Priestes Poonkes and caphards But for to returne vnto mourning In the manner also Seneca hath written that the auncient Romaynes haue not pressed nor determined any certeyne time vnto for to weepe and lament bicause it hath no honestie for as the himselfe witnesseth
Sainct Cyprian hath well vnderstanded of whom the witnes is alleged by the maister of the sentences For although all the deathes and forments that all men haue euer suffred Patriarkes Prophets and Apostles Martirs and confessors should be put together they should not be sufficient for to put out the least sinne in the world For God doth not take onlye for satisfaction the torment but regardeth the worthynes of the person of which he receaueth the raunsome the whiche was not found sufficient but in Iesus Christ Or otherwise if the torment which man doth suffer were approued and allowed of God for satisfaction and cause to auoyd the paines of Purgatory there shoulde bee no men more happier and blessed then the théeues murtherers brigandes and other malefactors which are executed by Iustice And there would bee none which would not but become a théese or murtherer or to coÌ„mit some fault wor thy of death for to be executed thorow Iustice to auoide the paines of Purgatory For if the doctrine of your diuines be true the fire of Purgatory surmounteth al the paine that a man can suffer in this life and it is so hot and burning that the visible and materiall fire of this world is but as a painted fire in comparison of that same Hillarius I cannot vnderstand in what place of the holy scripture they haue séene that I woulde rather beleeue that they haue learned it of Plutarch who hath witten that the dolors and paines of Purgatory are so great and so cruell that there is asmuche difference betwéene them and those that wee do suffer in our body and in the flesh as there is difference betwéene that which happeneth vnto vs in dreaming and that which happeneth vnto vs waking In somuch that all that whiche we doe suffer in this worlde is but as a dreame in the respecte of the same Wherfore if the fable that the Theologians haue rehersed of Sainct Gregory be true I shal not be abashed that hee had rather choose when the Aungell did giue vnto him the choyce of two things to be in paine and sickenes all his life then two daies in Purgatory bicause that hée prayed for Traianus and deliuered him from hell For although that he complained in his Epistles that hée is so much gréeuid with diseases and so great dolours that his life is vnto him nothing but paine yet neuertheles it is verye casle in comparison to be a quarter of an houre in Purgatory Thomas To what purpose hath the Angell giuen vnto him to choose one of those two paines By doing good ought euill to happen vnto him Hath hée fetched out Traianus from hell against Gods will If our Priestes had such a payment for to drawe soules out of Purgatorye I belaue that they would not be very much hotte after their masses Hillarius It were necessary that sithens they haue begunne the fable to ende it for to make it accorde and agrée with that of Theseus and Pyrothus who as the Poetes do witnes are punished in the hells bicause that they woulde take awaye Proserpina maugre the God Pluto Theophilus That is yet nothing in comparison to that that I haue said They do kindle that fire more For they do affirme that the same of Purgatory and that of hell is al one and that there is none other difference but that the same of hell is eternall touching his office but the same of Purgatory is not but as touching his substaunce bicause that the soules go out some time Wherefore they do conclude that not onely the paine of Purgatorye is the moste gréenous that euer was but whiche is more Thomas of Aquin hath written that that paine excéedeth and surmounteth the dolours torments which Iesus Christ hath suffred in his death and passion What blasphemy can be more greater For what hell can be more truell then that which Iesus Christe hath suffred for vs when hee take vpon him the cursse due for our sinnes for to deliuer vs Thomas Do they not alledge some place of the holye Scripture for to proue that Hillarius Where shal they finde it their probatien is an example which they do commonly put foorth and propounde taken out of the chronicles of the Iacobins of a Frier of that order who appeared vnto a very friende of his by whom beeing asked of the paines of Purgatorye aunswered that if all the world and all the visible things were on fire and did burne yet it could not be compared to the paine and beate of Purgatorye bost thou not thinke that the probation is worthy of such Theologians Eusebius Although that there were no Scripture that we had but our naturall sence the which God hath giuen vnto vs yet wee might well iudge that it is conuenient and necessarie that there be a Purgatorye in whiche the sinful men may he punished for those sinnes of which they haue not ended their penaunce For it is not written with out cause Nullum malum impunitum Nullum bonum irrenumeratum That is ther is none euil which shal not be vnpanished nor no goodnes which shal not be vnrewarded Theophilus Although that those wordes are not reryted in the scripture after that manner as thou doost receyte them yet neuertheles I am content to allow it to be true I doe not deny but that God is as iust as he is merciful For otherwise he could not be god But we ought to consider by what meanes he doth exercise his iustice mercie towards vs There is no doubt but the our sinnes do deserue great punishmeÌ„t And therfore hath he giueÌ„ vnto vs Iesus Christ his sonne hath deliuered him to death for vs that our misdéeds should be punished in him that he do satisfie for vs to his souereigne iustice for to obteine of him grace mercy in his name Thou seest theÌ„ that there is none euil which is not vnpunished for to satisfie the rightousnes iustice of god but ther is differeÌ„ce in the maÌ„ner of punishing Forâ—â— he that hath bâ—ne the euil beleeueth in Iesus Christ and hath full hope and trust that thorow his death passion he hath obtayned of God pardon and remission of his sinnes thorow that saith he is the true member of Iesus Christ and adopted for the sonne of god If hee bee a true member of Iesus Christ and a true childe of God hée his sinnes are punished in Iesus Christe who for that cense hath borne the iudgement and tursse of God for all the elect But if the sinner bee an Infidell and whiche hath no parte with Iesus Christ the wrath of God falleth vppon him and he cannot escape the Iudgement of God but that his sinne be punished in himselfe in hell fire And euen as our euill deedes are punished in Iesus Christ so are our good déedes rewarded in him and by him allowed of the celestiall Father which crowneth his good
you but the opinions of the Doctors Wherfore I would gladly Eusebius that you would follow that matter and I desire that thou wouldest proue by the holy Scriptures that which thou affirmest of the yoūg children dead without circumcision baptisme Eusebius Doest thou thinke that I speake without the Scripture the which I wil not yet alledge with my gloses and expositions But for to giue more weight and credite vnto my probations I would thou shouldest beare the witnesse of them by the mouth of the auncient Doctors namely of the worshipful Beda speaking after this manner Hée which now cryeth terribly healthfully by his Gopell except a man be borne of water the holy spirite he cannot enter into the kingdome of god The very same he cryed by his lawe the soule of him whose foreskinne of his flesh is not circumcifed shal perish from his people bicause he hath broken my testament Beholde a cléere probation as wel for the children of the Iewes as for those of the Christians Theophilus How vnderstandest thou that threatning against those which were not circumcised For God hath prefired eight dayes for to circumcise the young children Nowe if they doe dye before the eight day and the terme prescribed of God doest thou thinke that the saluation of those children be in daunger Eusebius The word of God excepteth neither little nor great but speaketh generally to all men Theophilus But there could haue bene no fault but in the transgressiō of the cōmaundement of god Sith then that God had determined for them the viij day wherefore ought the young children to perish which died before that terme For sith that God had lymitted the day I doubte not but that those who should haue circumcised them before the day prefired should do contrary vnto the cōmaundement of God. Eusebius I accorde vnto thée therein in those which should haue done that without necessitie and without the daunger of the death of the young childe But I beléeue that when there should haue bene any daunger they might circumeise them before that terme Theophilus And I beléeue the contrary For I can proue my reason by the Scripture the which thou canst not doo thine If it were so then as y sayst it should follow y god was not well aduised when he made that ordinaunce and that the Isralites shoulde be wiser by right and that hée should doe great wrong vnto them sith that he hath not aduertised them of that doing and that he gaue none exception It followeth in lyke manner if the circumcision had bene so necessary vnto saluation that all the woemen children and woemen should perish fith that they dyed all without circumcision the which yet neuerthelesse no man dareth to affirme sith that there hath bene so many holy women of whom the holy Scripture beareth vs witnes Eusebius It is easie to reproue thy consequence For in the institution of the circumcision it is spoken expressely of the males not of the females Theophilus The law yet neuerthelesse sayth euery soule euery person Wherefore if we must take the wordes by rigor without a fitte interpretation wée must comprehend the females if there had bene none other places which doe giue vnto vs the intelligence vnderstanding of the lawe besides that the institution of the same doth sufficiently declare that it extendeth not vnto the women Thē if the womē be exempt bicause that the lawe bindeth them not so are the Infants which dye before the eight day For they are not bound by the law before the terme or otherwise God would not haue held his peace sooner then of ther thinges which were not of so great importance But when the eight day was come I doubt not that if thorow contempning negligence and dispising the circumcision had bene omitted but y the Lord would haue bene greatlye offended not by reason of the signe but thorowe the rebellion and dispisinge of his woorde the which hee taketh in greate displeasure as he hath shewed the example of him that gathered sticks on the sabboth day It seemed that y fault was not great nor such as though he had committed a murther And yet neuertheles god punished him with a cruel death as though he had cōmitted the greatest crime in the world It is then an other thing to haue omitted any ceremony cōmanded of God thorow negligence dispising rebellion or to haue left it vndone thorow necessitie or bicause that it was not possible For when there is let such that man cannot auoyde it and that this minde and will was good and hath trauayled as much as hée can for to execute it I doe not beléene that god imputeth the fault vnto him vnto whom hée was not bounde For the saluation of men consisteth in the alliaunce which the Lord hath made with vs by the which doth the small and greate are receiued and ioyned together in the company and fellowshippe of the people of god We doe not denye but that that alliaunce is signed and sealed by the sacramēts and that the baptisme is but the signe and seals among the Christians as the circumcision was amonge the Iewes But it followeth not therefore that it is firme and certeine inough without that signe and seale Wherfore there is no doubt but that those which do shut vp the kingdome of heauen vnto the infants for want and lack of the signe do vnto them great wrong and do béely the promises of God which by them haue pronounced them to be his before y they were borne saying that he is our God and the God of our children And therfore those which do make that outward baptisme so necessary vnto saluation what other thing do they make of it but a witchcraft and Magical enchauntments attributing vnto the material corruptible elements that which apperteineth vnto the only vertue of God wherto serueth it Wherefore we may wel know the error and ignorance of the scholastical doctors which haue iudged that baptisme necessary vnto saluation For which cause they haue also permitted and establyshed that the woemen might and ought to baptise in tyme of necessitie But the auncient Patriarches an holy Prophetes were not in that superstition and were not ignoraunt of the vertue and efficacie of gods promise and allyaunce nor of the reasons by mée alledged or otherwise the Israelites should haue greatly fayled and chiefely Moses which was the Prophet and conductor of the people of God to haue dwelled at the least the space of fourty yeres sithens the departing from Aegypt vntil the entring into the land of Chanaan without circumcising y children Yet it is to be beléeued that during that time many dyed without being circumcysed and although none had dyed did it not séeme rightly that Moses and all the other Israelites did against the ordinance of god sith that they executed it not at the day appointed Thomas Is it true that they haue abode so long
he hath done it in his time Eusebius Doest thou think that there is in the other life any augmentation and increase of ioy and of glory Theophilus To the end thou maist not rebuke me in ouer rash defining of such things I will propounde vnto thée the witnesses of the scripture by whiche thou maist comprehend that which we may iudge off Mark then first the witnesse of the Apostle which saith writting of the holy prophets and seruants of God which were before the comming of Christ that all those there hauing obteyned witnesse by faith receiued not the promise God hauing prouided a certeine better thing for vs to the end that they should not be come vnto perfection without vs He saith not that they haue altogether receiued the promise For it was made first of all to them But he vnderstandeth the accomplishing and the fruite of the same of which they haue not béene altogether depriued But they haue not had it so perfectly as we haue it nowe For sith that he speaketh of fulfilling and ending he signifieth then that there is alreadie great beginning of felicitie But the perfection was not yet nor shal be vntill the consuÌ„mation and restoring of all things For the terme of consuÌ„mation and perfection are relatiues the which wée must necessarily referre vnto some beginning To which agréeth the aunswere that GOD made vnto the soules of the Martyrs which demaunded vengeaunce against the persecutors of the Church vnto whome the Lorde aunswered that they shoulde tarrye vntyll the number of their bretheren were fulfilled Eusebius make me to vnderstand that more clearely Theophilus Assone as we bâ—gin to knowe God in this worlde and to beléeue in Iesus Christ we begin also to tast the goodnesse of the celestiall life and of the worlde to come But we haue not yet perfect ioy Yet neuerthelesse sithence that we haue once tasted that celestiall goodnesse we grow from day to day from knowledge to knowledge from faith to faith from good to be better vntil we become vnto the age of a perfect man to the fulnesse of Christ to the eternall felicitie and ended blessednesse Now if alreadie in this vale of misery our soule being charged with this terrestiall body shut vp and kept in the same as in a darke prison altogether wrapped in miseries sinnes and maledictions receiueth such consolation and ioy there is no doubt but that after that it is deliuered from that prison and captiâ—â—tie and hath put of all earthly corruption it may growe into all goodnesse and perfection or else in vaine hath Saint Paul saide I desâ—re to be losed and to be with Christ which thing is to â—e best of all And yet neuerthelesse it hath not hir â—eâ—iâ—â—tie and perfect glorie vntill the resurrection of his glorious bodie And that it be againe vnited wiâ—h it and seâ— God face to face and knowe him as we haue béene knowâ—â— of him then when he shal haue vanquished all things and shal be all in all For it is not yet appeared what we shal be but our life is hid in Iesus Christ Euen as then those which doe nowe depart out of this life haue not yet such ioy as they shall haue after that Iesus Christ shall appeare in glorie â—or to iudge all flesh when we shall all arise so by the like reason we may estéeme and thinke that the auncient fathers which haue béene before the commâ—ng of Iesus Christ haue not had altogether such ioy and felicitie before â—is resurrection as afterwarde For if the Angels themselues which alwayes doe behold the face of the heauenly father haue receiued increase of the science and knowledge of God and of their felicitie by the comming of Iesus Christ and there ought to receiue it more ample in the resurrection of the iust and righteous we must not doubt but that asmuch shall happen vnto the blessed spirites and iust soules Wherefore wée may easely knowe by the same howe great and admirable the misterie and secret of the redemption of mankinde is and what is the excellencie of the Church of Iesus Christ sith that the angels themselues doâ— receiuâ— so great profite and increase in all goodnesse Thomas By what place of the holy scripture caâ—st thou proue that which thou speakest Theophilus They are sufficiently expressed in the Epistles of the Apostles for saint Peter speaking of that matter saith that of the Prophets auncyent fathers that it hath béene reuealed vnto them y not to them selues but vnto vs they should administer the things the which saith he nowe are declared vnto you by them which haue declared the gospell by the holy ghost sent from 〈◊〉 the which the Angels doe desire to beholde The Angelâ— had not that desire but that they did féele a greate goodnesse But saint Paul sheweth vnto vs the same yet more expressely and declareth vnto vs sufficiently that sith that the Angels are the ministers of God appointed to the health of men which cannot be in perfect and full blessednesse as we which are their compagnions burgesses and citizens of the kingdome of heauen with them neither are we also come therevnto For euen as they do reioyce ouer the sinner that repenteth and which retâ—urneth vnto God also without all doubt sith that aboâ—e all things they do procure our helth and saluation it cannot be but that they are verie angrye and sorye when they sée vs yet pressed with sinne and death and to striue against them in great anguish Forasmuch then as their â—â—â—yâ—itie is ioyned with ours it is certeine that theirs without ours cannot be perfect For it is written expresly that the saintes shal iudge the Angels and the worlde And the Apostle affirmeth that nowe vnto the rulers and powers in heauen might be knowne by the congregation the manifold wisedome of God according to the eternall purpose which he purposed in Christe Iesu our Lorde If the Angels then doe learne yet and profite in the knowledge of the goodnesse of God the which they doe daily sée to be manifested by newe miracles towardes the Church so in like manner it must be that they doe acknoweledge vs for their iudges and princes in Christ and bicause of Christe it is easie to knowe that there is yet a certeine thing in them whiche doth séeke his perfection of Iesus Christe Therefore it is written that thorowe him all thinges are repaired and restored both in heauen and in earth Wherein the scripture teacheth vs that his comming was not onely healthful vnto men but also vnto all creatures yea vnto the Angels themselues which had no sinne For euen as the fâ—ll of man hath drawen after him the ruine of all other creatures and hath made them subiect vnto malediction with him so euery creature sigheth and groneth with him also looâ—â—â—g for their redemption and deliuerance the which is ioyned together with his Nowe if the Angells cannot be
perfectly consâ—mated in all blessednesse without vs which are their compaignioâ—s how shal our other bretheren do which are ioyned néerer vnto vs which do yet tâ—â—â—e for the redemption of their bodyes and the consummation of their ioy the which they cannot haue without vs and a great deale lesse then the Angels Thomas Weâ— may also conclude by the contrarie that the torâ—ents of the diuells and reprobate doe increase and that they shal be greater and more grieuous after the latter iudgement then they are at this present Theophilus Saint Péeter doth giue vs most euident witnesse writing of the wicked and reprobate after this manner howe will God spare them if he haue not spared the Angels that haue sinned but hath cast them down into hell deliuered them into chaynes of darkenesse to be kept vnto iudgement And by and by after he saith moreouer the Lorde knoweth howe to deliuer the godly out of temptation and howe to reserue the vniust vnto the day of iudgement We cannot deny but that the diuels and reprobate are alreadie in torment and but that they are alreadie drowned in the bottome of hell sith that they are reiected of God that they are in his wrath â— indignation But yet neuerthelesse by the words of saint Peter we may easely vnderstand that they doe attend and â—ariâ— for yet a certeine more grieuous iudgement gods anger more fearefull then they haue féeled But for to make thée to vnderstand more plainely that which I thinke I will expounde it vnto thée by a similitude and comparison taken of the very words of S. Peter When a malefactor hath coÌ„mitted some certein great cryme worthy of death grieuous punishment there is no doubt but y he féeleth his condempnation in his conscience assone as he hath coÌ„mitted the euil déede He hath his conscience which is his accusor for a witnesse for a iudge and for a hangeman and it can be none otherwise His conscience â—yteth and accuseth him Afterwardes he commeth to be vanquished of hys misdéedes by his owne proper witnesse which avayleth more then a thousand witnesses And after it hath vanquished hym it condempneth him And euen as it constrayneth them to witnesse against themselues so it constrayneth them to condempne themselues insomuch that although all the Angels and all the men of the worlde woulde cleare them and pronounce them to be righteous and iust yet neuerthelesse they cannot absolue and cleare themselues nor auoide their owne iudgement Now after y senteÌ„ce giuen it must be that it be put in execution and that the malefactor be deliuered into the hands of the hangeman the which he néede not to séeke farre nor out of himselfe His conscience with the rest doth yet that office the which whippeth and tormenteth him so cruelly that he cannot haue rest day nor night If he sée any talke together he thinketh they talke of hym If he sée but a leafe of a trée to wagge he thinketh that they are seriants sent for to take and carie him to prison If he thinke to sléepe and take rest he dreameth that he is in the handes of the iudge which sendeth him to the hangeman and that they doe leade him to the gallowes And in waking and sléeping he ceaseth not to imagine and thinke of hangemen â—ortures and Gybettes Wherefore the Prophete hath not saide without a cause That the wicked are like the raging Sea that cannot rest whose water â—ometh with the myre and grauell Euen so the wicked haue no peace saith the Lorde Haue we not the example verie euident in Caine and in Iudas From whence procéeded that violence of mans conscience but from GOD Which maketh hys enimyes to féele hys iudgement and his furour in such sort that they themselues cannot beare it But are constrayned to condempne them selues and despaire whiche is a certeine witnesse that there is a iudgement and â— God vnto whome we must render accompte The which we ought all to vnderstande and knowe although wée should neuer heare speaking of God nor of his holy scriptures and although we shoulde haue none other witnes but the same heré the which God hath naturally printed into the heart of euery one the which ought well to suffice vs For as saint Iohn saith if but hearts condemne vs God is greater then our harts and knoweth all things That is as much as if he had saide if we ourselues doe condemne vs may not God well condemyne vs Sith that we haue such a feare and such a horrour doeth not our heart admonish vs sufficiently that we haue a superiour and gouernour which will not suffer such thinges Sith that there is not so great a Prince not so great a Tyrant which feeleth not that hell in his conscience Although there be not a man vppon the earth aboue him of whome he may be afraide Doest thou nowe see howe the hell of the wicked beginneth alreadie in him here in 〈◊〉 worlde The which our Lorde Iesus Christ woulde not haue vs to be ignorant off saying be that beléeueth in the sonne of God hath eternall life and shall not tast of death For he is alreadie passed from death to life but he that beléeueth not in the sonne of God he is alreadie iudged and condemâ—ned Doth he not shewe vs here with the finger howe the faithfull beginneth alreadie his paradise in this worlde and the infidell and vnfaithfull hys hell Hillarius There is nothing more certeine then that which thou speakest And although we had not the witnesses of the Scriptures wee haue the witnesse of nature printed into the hearts of all which hath constrained the Poets to inuent and finde out that fayning of the furies the which we may call she diuelles They do assigne their habitation in the helles and say that they do torment the wicked and reprobate people most horribly aswell in this worlde as in the other By the which they vnderstand none other thing but the torments and assaltes of the euill conscience and that worme which dyeth not but gnaweth and deuoureth incessauntly Theophilus I doubt not But let vs sée how y â— â—el encreaseth day by day If the malefactor be alredy so much tormented before that the Iudge hath layde his handes vpon him before that he be put in prison before that he hath ben on the racke vanquished iudged and condemâ—ned Let vs thinke what torment he ought to haue beeing in prison after that his processe is made and concluded looking tarying for his sentence cruel death euery houre In what anguish thinkest thou that he is in Doest thou thinke that the horror that he hath of the looking for of the torments which are prepared for him are vnto him a great deale lesse paine then the torments and the death that hée looketh for Eusebius Truely I beléeue that there is no great difference that he dyeth so many times as he liueth houres
and minutes Theophilus Thou séest howe hée is already iudged and yet hée is not He is sufficiently iudged and condemned as to himselfe sith that he hath his conscience his confession his witnesse and his processe against himselfe and that he accompteth himselfe alredy as dead But neuerthelesse there is yet a more greater horror to be brought to iudgemeÌ„t to heare the sentence of his Iudge to be condemned and executed openly notwithstanding that he is already sufficiently condemned being in the prison yet neuertheles the Iudge must pronounce openly his last sentence that his iudgement be put in execution As much may wée say of the Diuels and reprobate Whilest that the wicked doe liue héere in this worlde they are lyke vnto malefactors before that they are apprehended and taken When God calleth them from this worlde hée cyteth them before hym â—or to appeare in iudgement And they are as though they were cast in prison lookinge for their latter sentence which shall bee giuen them in that great â—aye in which all processe all causes and appeales shall ende Beholde the cause wherefore Sainct Peter maketh mention of the bondes and chaines with which GOD bindeth y diuels which he hath reserued to his iudgemeÌ„t vsing humaine and materiall comparisons for to declare vnto vs y heauenly spirituall things That is the cause wherefore the wicked spirites doe pray vnto Iesus Christ that hée will not sende them into the déepe complaininge and lamentinge bicause that they did féele by his comming their iudgement to approch nigh And therefore they cried O Iesu thou sonne of Dauid art thou come hether to torment vs before our time be come We cannot doubt but that they were already tormented before as the malefactor which is in the â—â—ockes and chaines But they haue dreadful feare when they do sée their Iudge and that they doe féele their last sentence to drawe nigh Thomas It is to be meruailed at how the one of the matters bringeth in the other and giueth vnderstandinge of it Thou hast deliuered me from one great doubt thou hast instructed me how I ought to aunswere vnto a very hard question the which was propunded vnto me not long a goe that is to say If after that the soule is seperated from the body whether y it goeth straight way into Paradise or into hell For if it goeth into Paradise or into hell it seemeth that the iudgement is alredy done that we must tary no longer for it or if we ought to looke and tary for an other that y soules of the faithfull or vnfaythfull haue not yet a place assigned vnto them for to receyue felicitie or malediction And therefore some doe saye that they sleepe vntill that great iourney But thou hast taken from mée the doubt and hast satisfied mee thorowly Theophilus Wee must not bee abashed althoughe those that sleepe doe dreame But we ought rather to bee abashed to see those that be awake to dreame and to beleeue and giue credite vnto the dreames of the sleepers For if it were so the woorkes of God agaynst their nature should rather diminish then increase and thâ— faythfull ought more to feare the corporall de 〈◊〉 then thâ— vnfaythfull For by the death the vnfaythfull should bée at rest and the faythfull shoulde bée depriued from that portion of the eternall felicitie the which they haue alredy tasted off in this world the which they ought to haue mor amply after that they be delyuered from the prison of this mortall body I beléeue most assureâ—ly that if Sainct Paul had thought that hée must haue slepte so longe 〈◊〉 in bodye and soule after his decease wythout hauing more â—â—â—ple fruition of the heauenly goodnesse and ioyes then hée had in this worlde that hée would neuer haue sayde What to choose I wotto not I am constrayned of two thinges I desire to be loosed and to bee wyth Christ which thing is best of all Neuerthelesse to abyde in the fleshe is more néedfull for you For in stéede to receyue more greater goodnesse as hée desired hée was â—â—mpayred and made worse and that portion of the heauenlye goodnesse that hée had already tasted off lyuing in thys bodye was better for him then to bée altogether spoyled of it and to sléepe beeing insensible as a stone two or thrée thousande yeares Hillarius Cycero was but a Panim and an heathen man who was not very certeine nor assured of the eternall lyfe nor perfectly resolued of the immortalytie of the soules but yet neuerthelesse hee sayth that he would not lyue nyntie yeares in such sorte that after that he had depassed thrée score yeares hée shoulde sléepe the residue of nentie yeares But whiche is more hée addeth is that matter the Hogges woulde not desyre that muche lesse I By that accompte hée esteemeth the lyfe of Hogs better then that of man all the whyle as hée abydeth a sléepe bycause that the sleeper is an Image of death the whiche alwayes representeth hymselfe in sléeping Theophilus And therefore I dooe conclude that notwithstandinge that the Lorde by hys prouydence hath constituted and appointed that the bodyes doe sléepe in the earth as in their hedde vntyll the resurrectyon that the number of their bretheren shal be fulfilled yet neuertheles the faithful nor the vnfaithfull neuer are without their Paradise their hell the which the more as they doe approch to their consummation ende so much y more doe they encrease augment vntill such time as they are come vntill the latter degrée of felicitâ—e or infelicitie beneâ—iction or malediction Thomas After the same manner as thou procéedest thou wilt leaue vs neither Lymbe nor Purgatory Theophilus As touching the Lymbe if one doe take it for the bosome of Abraham and the condition of the â—uncient fathers which haue bene before the comming of Iesus Christ I will not much dispute of the wordes if we agrée in the thing I am well contented to confesse that the condition of the auncientes as well those that bée lining as those that bée dead compared vnto ours in respect of the same may be estéemed as a prison in price of a palaice If we doe beholde the shadowes and figures vnder whose darknesse they haue bene deteyned and kept in respect of vs and the seruitude and bondage of the Mosaicall lawe vsinge suche comparisons as Sainct Paul who compareth all this auncient people vnto young children which are vnder their Tutor and Master and vnto seruauntes which are vnder the feare of their Master in comparison of the Christian people the which hée compaseth vnto the true natural perfect children which are already out of boÌ„dage gouernment saying that they haue not receiued y spirit of bondage feare but the spirit of adoption of libertie Vpon which we ought to note y the Apostle denieth not simply but that those good auncient fathers haue had the same spirit of
full resolution they will fall vppon this sence Although that Iesus Christ be dead as touching his flesh body and humanitie yet neuerthelesse he is quickened by the spirite that is to say by his eternall vertue and diuine power by the which hee is not onely risen from death but also hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh and hath tourned death into lyfe quickening by the same all those which were dead thorow sinne And to the ende that none should dispise Iesus Christ bicause that he is dead and was crucified as a vyle and an abiect person he declared that he is so dead that there is no lyfe but in his death and that none can lyue but by him and that he is not onely to day but euerlasting and that by the same spirite and diuine and eternall vertue he is already an other time come vnto the worlde and hath iudged and condempned the rebells the proude and peruerse spirits oppressed with wicked spirites which were not vnder their kéeping but did sléepe not thinking on the iudgement of god vntil such time as the floud ouerwhelmed and drowned them as he doth yet at this present by that same spyrite by the which hée Iudgeth an condempneth the world and saueth and quickeneth his elect euen as he did in the time of Noe. Hillarius It seemeth that that exposition is also a little vyolated far fetched neuerthelesse it commeth not euill to purpose but séemeth to agrée well inough to the letter of the text of S. Peter Theophilus Bicause that the place is obscure hard I dare not to define pronounce of it rashly But I would gladly put forth these expositions to that ende you may iudge of theÌ„ for to awake the spirits for to finde out some better thing Neuertheles I thinke that this héere is the simplest that is to say that S. Peter willing to shew foorth the efficacie vertu of Iesus Christ of his death and passion witnesseth that it was so great that the lyuing haue not onely felt perceiued it but the dead also vnto whom it is come But in what manner or after what sort How is it communicated vnto vs and all his giftes and graces but by his spirite and diuine vertue Euen as then by his spirite he hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh which is vnto vs spirite and lyfe and hath communicated vnto vs his vertue so hath he manifested himselfe by the same spirite vnto the deade both during their lyse and after their death For it is sayde of Abraham that he did sée the day of the Lord and reioyced If he hath then already during this mortal lyfe felt the efficacie and vertue of Iesus Christ long time before that he didde offer his eternall sacrifice wée cannot doubt but that he and all the others which were in his bosome haue felte it more fully when he did manifest himselfe more fully By this we may well vnderstand whereto this place can serue to proue Purgatory For if the vertue of the death and passion of Iesus Christ be of such efficacie that it goeth vnto the dead what néede haue we then of Masses and Suffrages of the Priests for to comfort the dead and to apply vnto them the merits of Iesus Christ sith that none can do it but he himself by the vertue of his spirite which quickeneth the quicke and the dead Now hée calleth that manifestacion predication not that he hath preached verbally or by mouth towards the dead such as is among the lyuing but bicause that euen as by the preaching and Euangelycall ministring Iesus Christ is manifested vnto vs and doe feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion Also the spirits of the dead haue theirs but in their maner and such as apperteineth vnto them euen as we doe vnderstande that God gaue himselfe to his Angells to be knowen and to make them tast of his bountie and goodnesse but by an other meane then vnto vs bicause that their condition was contrary We must not then dreame out a Lymbe and a materiall prison and a locale descending of the spirite of Iesus Christ into hell and a preaching such as wée haue But wée must vnderstande all those things spiritually For as it is not néedfull that Iesus Christ should descend locally from heauen for to make vs feele his vertue so it is not necessary to descend into hell For the vertue of his spirite is such that it filleth heauen and earth and is spread abrode euery where Hillarius As I thinke our dreaming Theologians had very much leasure wheÌ„ they setled themselues to dispute whether the soule of Iesus Christ did suffer in the hell Amongest the which some of them are founde to bée of opinion that he did Theophilus If they had wel vnderstanded that which Iesus Christ sayd vnto the théefe This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise and how Iesus Christ descended into hell when his soule was sorrowfull and in anguish euen vnto the death and that he hath dronken vp the cup of the wrath and furor of God and hath borne his iudgement and our malediction and curse and the dampnation due vnto our sinnes insomuch that he was stroken beaten of God hath suffered death after which he descended into the sepulchre or graue they should not haue néeded againe to make the soule of Iesus Christ to descend from Paradise in which it was for to goe into hell For it is sufficiently giuen vnto the spirites of his elect to vnderstand which haue receiued consolation and vnto those of the reprobate declaringe vnto them from what goodnesse they were depriued without descending or assending Eusebius To what purpose then doth he speake of the prison and what other thing can hée vnderstand but the Lymbe of which it is also spoken in Zachery saying I haue let thy prisoners out of the pit where is no water Theophilus By the Words of Zachery the Lord giueth vs to vnderstand none other thing but that by the bleud of the alliance that he hath made with Syon he will deliuer his people that are captiue kept in the bottom of all miseries By the prisoners he vnderstandeh his people that bée in captiâ—itie by y euils he vnderstandeth a captinitie a goulse and bottome of all miserye from which it is not possible for them to come out by any meanes if God doe not delyuer them himselfe Therefore he calleth it Welles for to declare the depth yea yet without water in which one cannot swimme to the ende they may the better knowe their miserie and the grace and mercy of God towardes them When S. Peter did speake of the prison of the spirits he did it for to amplyfie the better the grace of the Gospell comparing those which wer vnder the seruitude bondage of the law vnder those shadows figures vnto those which shall be in a prison in
respect of those which haue receiued the light of the gospell But we must not therefore dreame that the bosome of Abraham was a prison or a Castle as we haue alredy declared in the other disputacion But we must be aduised know that those things are spoken by a comparison as we haue already declared the examples Thomas It séemeth that Saint Peter speaketh not but of the reprobate For after that hée hath spoken of those spirits which wer in prison he addeth which late or sometune were rebells Theophilus He speaketh generally of all For euen as the Gospell is a sweete sauour of lyfe to lyfe vnto those which are saued and a sauour of death to death vnto those that perish so the death of Iesus Christ bringeth a great reioycing both to the Angells and to all the blessed spirits and more greater confusion and grieuous dampnation vnto the wicked and reprobate But after that he spake generally of the spirits he pursued not all the two parts but stayed himselfe onely to the disobedient and rebells bicause that he is fallen into that matter speaking of afflictions Wherefore for to comfort the faythfull he sâ—ayed to declare vnto them the vertue which Iesus Christ hath for to saue his as he saued Noe and his family in the Arke and for to punish the wicked and persecutors as he hath drowned the Gyants by the floud For that cause he stayed to declare the Iudgement of god as in the chapter following saying that Iesus Christ shall Iudge the quicke and the dead For vnto this purpose verely was the Gospell preached vnto the dead that they should bée iudged lyke other men in the flesh but should lyue before God in the spirite Thomas By that which thou sayest thou doest declare vnto vs that that place concludeth not that ther is any other Limbe nor Purgatory then such which thou hast shewed vnto vs from the beginning But what sayest thou touching the preaching of the which we haue spoken which ought to be done vnto the spirits after this lyfe Theophilus First of all as touching those which are departed out of this world without hauing one grayne of that seede of the feare of God but haue altogether resisted his spirite and the naturall lyght and knowledge that hée hath giuen vnto them or at the preaching of his gospell we cannot leaue vnto them any preaching nor any other remedy after their death for their saluation except wée wil fall into the error of the Origenists and Anabaptists For it is written He which beléeueth not in the Sonne of God is already condempned But if it be a question of the elect which haue had alredy in this world some grain of the seede of God which haue walked in his feare although that they haue bene yet wrapped in many errors and darkenesse there is an other consideration Not that I doe vnderstand that the gospell is preached vnto them after they are departed out of this lyfe otherwise saying that they shall haue more ful knowledge of that that they haue onely héere known as amongst the midst of darkenesse For if they be the sonnes of God the seede of god which is in them shall saue them As wee may iudge by the example of Cornelius the Centurion Before that he had heard the preaching of Saint Peter he had not perfect knowledge of Iesus Christ Hée was yet a Panim but he was not therefore altogether without the seede of the feare of GOD nor without some beginning of fayth obscure knowledge of IESVS CHRIST Or otherwise his prayers and almes deedes shoulde not haue bene approued of God whome one cannot please without fayth If he had then dyed before that S. Peter was come vnto him I do not thinke therefore that he had ben altogether reiected and forsaken of God and that that knowledge sufficed him not to saluation or that he had not giuen himselfe more fully to be knowne of him either by some diuine inspiration or by some other meanes such as it pleaseth him yea in the Article of the death or at his last gaspe rather then to suffer him to perish As we may presume as wel of the Iewes as of the Panims who before the comming and manifestation of Iesus Christ in the flesh had the lawe of God written in their heartes notwithstanding that they haue not had altogether so full knowledge of Iesus Christ as we haue at this present For although that the knowledge of Iesus Christ be vnto all men necessary to saluation it followeth not therefore that none can be saued if it be not full and perfect in him For who euer had in this world so full knowledge of him and a faith so perfect that he had nothing to say There was neuer such a one found in this world It sufficeth then that that knowledge faith hath taken roote in vs that we do trauaile as much as we can possible to augment and increase it And afterwards when we shall doe our endeuour as much as we can the Lord which hath begun his worke in vs will bring it to passe and will supply and recompense thorow his grace the default of the faith and knowledge which we haue receiued of him euen as he doth of our workes which are all imperfect bicause of the imperfection of our faith so that ther be not dispising and to great negligence in vs which cannot be but to the reprobate Euen then as GOD by his great mercye supporteth the imperfection of our fayth and ceaseth nor leaueth off to receiue vs for his children so that the seede and the roote of the same be quickened in vs so I cannot vpholde and mainteine by anye witnesse of the holy Scripture that any should haue iust occasion to hope for saluation after this lyfe which from the same shall bée departed without any knowledge of God of Iesus Christ his sonne Wherefore I doe holde me to that which the Scripture hath reuealed vnto me do leaue the rest with the secrete iudgements of God which are hid from vs and couered But yet neuerthelesse I think that it is alwayes most sure to trauaile very much after the knowledge of the truth whilest that wée be in this worlde that wee may haue so much as is néedfull for our saluation and that our despising be not any cause vnto vs of dampnation And if wée doe our endeuour wee are very sure that the Lorde will not faile vs and that he will not hide himselfe or withdrawe himselfe from vs if wée doe seeke him and desire to approch and come vnto him For it is impossible that hee wil hide himselfe from those whom he hath chosen whoÌ„ he hath purposed to glorifie and to make them blessed by his knowledge And notwithstanding that wée haue not all of vs so great and high knowledge of him nor so many of his giâ—tes and graces as his Prophetes and Apostles yet