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A54202 Reason against railing, and truth against fiction being an answer to those two late pamphlets intituled A dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker, and the Continuation of the dialogue &c. by one Thomas Hicks, an Anabaptist teacher : by W. Penn. Penn, William, 1644-1718. 1673 (1673) Wing P1351; ESTC R25209 131,073 243

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and Railing wherewith he was charged at Bristol upon the Holy Spirit and that neither he had nor I have Words enough to signifie our Venom and Malignity because I said of James Nailors Book writ long before his being so charged That if he had treated that accursed Stock of Hirelings ten thousand times more sharply it had been but enough is like the rest of his Vngodly Perversions already noted For first I speak against Hir●lings and I have said nothing of them that the Holy Prophets have not exceeded who called them Dumb D●gs Greedy Dogs Wolves and such like But T. Hicks's Concern for Hirelings shews both that he is one himself and indeed has been so a long time and next that he is fallen with many more from the fi●st Love and Principle of that People called Anabaptists 2. From my Justifying James Nailor's Sharpness in a particular Contr●v●●sie ●gainst a Deceitful L●ing Pr●e●● he infe●s th●t I d●fend him as to his p●blick Misc●ri●g●s at Bristol I● this thy Conscience hath all thy pretended Sc●iptural Doctrines Knowledge ●tudy Preachm●nts c. brought thee no further God will b●●●t it all and bring thee to Judgm●nt for ● cler●●●gs Well may I return the third particular against thy self and Warn all People how they adhere to a Man f●●'d with so much Vn●ruth Slander Perversion and Forgery who art alien●ted from G●d's Light as near as it is to thee and that Heavenly Life that is felt therein of all those who believe and obey the Light Reader Let us not be esteemed Railers because we rebuke Railing Nor our Rel●gious ●ensure of their Perversions Forgeries and Proph●ness be accounted Reviling 'T is Trouble enough to us to be thus conce●ned in Controversie We would find other Employment if such Envious Spirits found not this for us 'T is not our Choice but theirs They began and which is worse when the Powers left off Their Restles● Spirit shows it must have its Vent some way Policy and Enmity together have turn'd it upon us so that our Peace from the Powers proves a Persecution from some of the Professors as the Experience of the base Cowardize of many among them gives us to remember that the Powers Pe●secution was the time of their Peace who like Insects lay dead during those Winter Seasons We were then their made Walls to flat the Shot and Bulworks to resist the Assaults and the more Moderate prayed that we might be enabled to stand But no sooner were we come out of that Fiery Furnace then we were saluted with an Imposture from Lincoln and a L●e from Dover both subscribed by Anabaptist ●re●chers with several Clamor●us Books since An Ill Rec●mpenc● indeed for our Love and Sufferings But fr●m God is our Reward therefore we are not moved with whom we leave our Innocency and ●e will Effectually plead our Cause with our Adversaries His SCOFFS or slight ESTEEM of WITNESSING With a Word to Professors With a Conclusive Supplication to the Lord. Arg. VI. He that Slights and Scoffs at Witnessing is no True Christian but that doth Tho. Hicks therefore no true Christian It was the Way of the True Prophets Apostles and Churches of Christ to declare of what they had known Experimentally of God and his Work otherwise they must have been uncertain of the Truth of those Things they have recommended to us And since the Times of Reformation from the Thickness of Popery Experiences have been very Excellent Things I remember though very young to Thousands what a great Stir and Flockings there has been in my time after such Preachers who could by any Experiences approach the Consciences and tell People upon Tryal what God was and what Christ was and the Holy Spirit with respect to the Soul of Man as to Manifestation Operation Conviction Faith Temptation Victory over Sin Regeneration and the like Indeed it was the Want of this Preaching that gave such a Dis-relish to People of the National Priests and they suffered not a little for their Change Sure I am some Forms reputed less Phanatical then that in which T. Hicks is prest closely after such a Ministry and utterly decryed all other to be Beneficial in the Church of Christ But the Lord God having appeared in a more Immediate and Spiritual Manner some having taken up their Rest by the way therby losing their first Desire and Love and so the more Insensible of these further Breakin gs forth of God's Power amongst them under the more refined Form they have sat down in and where the Lord in some Measure might have appeared to them do they in this Day set themselves to War against the Light and Life of Christ within For indeed it is a State too Inward Self-less and Spiritual for their Carnal Minds that can only perform an Outward and Formal Worship to arrive at Now such being closely beset in their Fading and Dying Forms and many on all hands in whom there are any tender Desires after God's Invisible Presence falling from them like Men that seek themselves and not the Lord they are belabouring hard to prevent such a Separation from them and indeed they are grown so Dry Barren of all Good by their Opposition to the Lord's Truth as now revealed among us that they come to lose with their former good Desires their very Doctrine And that which above all things was once most desirable to the better Sort of them and applauded by all is become a Theam for Scorn and Derision I mean WITNESSING Thomas Hicks though an Anabaptist-Preacher cannot abide to hear of Witnessing He had as lieu meet with the Lye as Witnessing for an Answer He commonly bestows Ignorance Folly or such like upon It for a Companion And though another Return might be as easily found out by him yet because it may not so well suite the Scoffer and Prophane WE WITNESS IT is to go in its room To which kind of Answer he usually replies What is Thy Witnessing to Me Do not put us off with your Witnessings which signifie nothing to us Thy Commands and Witnessing are much alike to me with more of this kind My Friends In the Love of God that would have you redeemed and saved I beseech you turn away from such Blind Guides their Paths are Darkness and the End thereof Death If ever you will know and worship God aright you must come to the measure of his Spirit in you that is given to convince the World of Sin and you must know the Work thereof Experimentally in you or your Souls perish for ever My Friends I have a great Stress upon me concerning you would I could reach into every Soul of you that you might be toucht with this true Testimony for I know not more truly that God is then that I feel him to be a Rewarder of every Man according to his Works and such as Men sow they must reap And truly my Friends Time passeth away apace and the Day
how knows he that the Scriptures were writ by Inspiration If he sayes he was told so I ask how they knew it If they say they were told so too and so upwards I ask what Assurance can any Man 's Say-so or Hear-say be in a Matter of such Importance Nay Suppose I should grant them a True Tradition from the Apostles times I ask how knew they to whom they were writ that they were the Fruits of Divine Inspiration In short take away all Inward Testimony or the Certainty and Sufficiency of it and Farewell to all Right Belief of the Scriptures themselves Behold the Strait he is run into But if at last T.H. shall desire a little more room and acknowledge the Spirit must give the Discerning and Relish and most Convincing Testimony will it not follow that he believeth the Scriptures and performeth what may be his Duty therein upon that Conviction and not meerly because written or recommended by any Man whatever But he proceeds to prove E.B. as he thinks an Enemy to God's Commandments and a very Lyar. The thing he Wickedly but in vain aims at He quotes him thus Quak. You are not dead with Christ who are yet subject to Ordinances E.B. p. 105. To which hear him Christ The Spirit of God in the Scriptures assures us that they who are subject to and keep the Commandments of God are the Children of God and they who do not are Lyars See the first Epistle of John 2.3 4. and Chap. 5.2 3. Yet this Wicked Man saith That they who are subject to Ordinances are not Dead with Christ Edw. Burroughs's Words are those of the Scriptures of Truth therefore true Words in themselves But how does E.B. abolish what God perpetuates I am sure I can plainly perceive that Tho. Hicks does call a Conscientious Departed Sufferer and Prisoner unto Death for the Testimony of Jesus Wicked Man because he dared not be guilty of will-Will-Worship by going into any Practice of Worship without the Leading of God's Spirit Six Particulars comprehend my Answer in brief First That Edw. Burroughs only pleaded against such Performances under the Name of Ordinances as were but Shadowy Elementary and Perishable Things and which they were not led to by God's Spirit but took up unwarrantably and by meer Imitation and therefore Will-Worship 2. That Thomas Hicks implies by calling him Wicked Man that it is a Wickedness not to take up any Outward or Visible Part of Worship in a Man 's own Will ' and Time But to stay God's Time and wait for the Leadings of God's Spirit From whence I infer ●e is no Child of God for every such one is led by the Spirit of God therefore no better then an Ape or Imitator of the Out-sides of Religion In short a Will-worshipper and not a Worshipper of God in the Spirit and in the Truth 3. Let it be observed that there is not so much as the least mention made in all the Epistles of that Beloved Disciple of any of those Ordinances which stood in Visible and Corruptible Elements but the Scope and Tendency of them is the most Inward and Spiritual of any of the Apostolical Writings So that to bring in things of a Temporary Shadowy Nature among the Spiritual and Durable Commands of Christ under the New Covenant State without keeping of which Men incur Eternal Wrath is an Abuse both of the Apostle's Words and E. B's which he intended by them to confute 4. T. Hicks does as good as tell us That the Commandments of God may be kept without the Spirit of God since he opposes the Necessity of our Doing God's Commandments to our doing them in the Time and Will and by the Assistance of God's Spirit O Irreligious Man and Enemy to God's Spirit 5. It plainly tells us that Tho. Hicks has no Command in himself for doing what he does that the bare Authority of the Scripture is all he has to induce him which raizes to the Ground that old Protestant Doctrine of Believing the Scriptures from an Inward Testimony and Worshipping God in Spirit and Truth 6. Lastly If all are Lyars that keep not God's Commandments and therefore none of his Children as saith the Place as asserts T. Hicks then either T.H. keeps God's Commandments and so is perfect or he must be a Lyar and so no Child of God That he keeps not God's Commands I prove If such as say that Man cannot fulfil obey or keep the Law nor the Gospel pray preach dip eat Bread and drink Wine nor live without Sin keeps not God's Commandments but so doth T.H. expresly or implicitely therefore he keeps not God's Commandments and consequently is a Lyar and no Child of God For the Lyar is for the Lake To say we deny Obedience to God's Commands because we deny the present Necessity or Use of their Water Bread and Wine will never hurt us For First we know and they confess that they were in the beginning used as Figures and Shadows of a more Hidden and Spiritual Substance 2. That they were to endure no longer then till the Substance was come Now the time of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost Christ's only Baptism therefore called the One Baptism has been long since come Consequently the other which was John's was fulfilled and as becomes a Fore-runner ought to cease The like may be said of the Bread and Wine for as there is but One Baptism so is there but One Bread The Least in the Kingdom was Greater then John 's Water-Baptism He was to Decrease Christ to Increase Jesus Baptized not with Water 'T is true he bid his Apostles Go Teach Baptizing c. but no Water is mentioned But Luke in the 1st of the Acts sayes that before Christ gave that Commission mention'd by Matthew said John Baptized with Water but ye shall be Baptized with the Holy Ghost not many dayes hence and then comes the Commission in Force Go Teach Baptizing c. How With the Holy Ghost turning People from Darkness to Light and from the Power of Satan unto God 3. They were but the more Noble among the Meats and Drinks and divers Washings that the Apostle said were but Shadows of the Good Things to come For I would not that any should be so Sottish as to think that Christ came to abolish those Shadows of the Jews and institute other in their room by no means He came to remove change and abolish the very Nature of such Ordinances and no● the particular Ordinances only to wit an Outward Shadowy or Figurative Worship and Religion For it was not because they were Jewish Meats and Drinks and divers Washings but because they were Meats Drinks and divers outward Washings at all which never could nor can cleanse the Conscience from dead Works nor give Eternal Life to the Soul else wherein would the Change be I affirm by that one Scripture Circumcision is as much in force as Water-Baptism and the Paschal Lamb as
contradict and count us Impostors Hereticks c. for these Matters they oppose and contradict themselves like Wavering Unsettled and Uncertain Persons not to be credited in their Contentious Work As for those Passages of Tho. Collier they were Printed in the Year 1050. which was before these Controversies happened between us and so before their Enmity broke forth as it doth● and therefore the more to be taken notice of as being writ from an Unprejudiced Mind and a Capacity more fit to receive Spiritual Sights and Openings which divers of them heretofore have had But now plain Prejudice Darkness and an Apostacy is come over these Carnal Contenders who have lost that former Sincerity Tenderness and Spiritual Desires that appeared in divers and now with their Flesh Darkness Carnal Imaginations and Selfish Spirits they are Raising up a Smoak and Darkness against the Glory of this Dispensation of Spirit Life Light and Power revealed among us which will out-live their Enmity and wear-out their Shadows and Empty Profession For this Spiritual Transcending Dispensation shall Increase their Shadows shall Decrease grow into Disesteem naturally Decay and by Degrees Vanish thereupon G.W. THE END Dial. p. 66. Pag. 13 15 25 44 45 49 54 60 76. Dial. p. 3 4 5. John 1.16 Col. 1.19 Rom. 8.9 10 11. vers 7. pag. 8 9. pag. 9. Dial. Joh. 1.5 Prov. 4.18 1 Joh. 1.1.2 3 4 5 6 7. Joh. 8.12 Joh. 11.9 10. Pag. 7. Dial. p. 21 22 33. Pythag. Socrat. Cleanth c. Pag. 33. Dial. Dial. p. 38.42 Dial. P. 22. Stob. 28. Id. 114. Val. Max. 2.10 Cic. pro Bal. Laert. Dial P. 35.36 Rom. 1.19 20. Jo. 10. P. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30. pag. 42. Contin pag. 3. Pag. 20. See p. 21. Dial. p. 43 44 45 46 47. Contin pag. 40 41 43 44. Isa 6.9 Cont. p. 48. Contin P. 49. Rom. 1. Dialog pag. 47.48 Isa 59.16 Isa. 63.4 4. Dialog p. 1. Read G. Fox 's Gr. Myst p. 91. Contin P. 50. * If wholely without us then none of it within us It was such a Justification as respected being made just by the Destruction of Sin inherent by the Spirit Power of Christ Jesus and not being accounted Just from the Guilt and former Sins freely Remitted in his Blood as an Offering for Sin once for all to every one that truly repents Apol●g p. 148. Gal. 6. Rev. 22. Rom. 8. P. 51. Contin Ezek. 18.20 26 27 28. * As wholely without us It is to be understood of a Righteousness Wrought by Christ's Power within when I speak of being justified that is made just by it Rom. 5.19 Rom. 2 3 4 5. Chap. 2. Cor. 5.19 Act 3.38 Contin P. 52. Sand. Found Shaken p. 26. * He was Our Example in Holiness though not in his Ending Types Shadows Contin p. 52. Sand. Found Shaken p 30. * God's Love is not excluded nor his Power that so worked in Abraham's Heart * That is within them as to Qualification Ibid. p. 52.53 Dialog p. 38. Contin p. 53. Contin p. 53. * Justification not as Remission but as made Just Contin p. 54. Isa 45.24 25. 1 Cor. 1.30 31. Cont. Pag. 59. Micah 7.18 Mat. 6.12 Rom. 14.12 2. Cor. 15.10 Mat 7.21 24 25. Rom. 2.13 Rom. 8.13 * Justification is compleatly taken Jam. 2.21 24. Rom. 8.30 Cont. p. 56. 1 Thes 5.23 1 John 5.18 2.1 3. Matth. 15.48 Ephes 4.13 2 Tim. 23.17 Hebr. 13.12 1 Pet. 5.10 2 Cor. 7.1 E. B's Works p. 47. Dialog p. 8. Cont. p. 68. Contin p. 61. * Observe how T. Hicks can quote Scripture to keep Ordinances never mentioned nor intended in it Again that he puts more Value upon such Commands as are Temporary then those that are Immutable and brings Scripture that concerns the Latter to confirm his Belief of the Former Mat. 3. Acts 1. James 4.3 Mat. 7.21 Spir. of Alex. p. 9. Contin p. 64. Contin p. 63 69. Comin pag. 65 66 67. 1 John 2.27 Ibid. Dialog p. 57. Dialog p. 58. Dialog Ibid. 2 Cor. 5.1 Rom. 8.11 2 Cor. 5.8 9. Cont. P. 18. Ibid. P. 27.29.32 33 34 38. Dial. p. 1 10 27 28 41 43 78 79 80 81 89. Cont. Tit. Pa. p. 50 56 58 66 68. 70. Dial. P. 83 84 85 92 93 94. Contin P. 87. The Waldenses accounted themselves Witnesses their best Argument was their Conscience P.P. Perrin Hist Wald. Luther oppos'd the Pope and his Adherents particularly about Justification by Works upon Experience He made it to stand in the Testimony of God in the Conscience that he was accepted from an Inward Work of God's Spirit and not any Outward Wo●ks much less such as their Works were Wessel Luth. confer Fox Mart. 2. Tom. The English Martyrs laid the Stress of their Opposition to Popery upon their Witnessing better things Book of Mart. The Brownists call themselves God's Sack-Cloth-Witnesses in their Apology dedicated to King James in the beginning of his Reign 1. yea in that Epistle Dedicatory they speak several times to that purpose their being Witnesses that they did Witness c. The like often in the Preface Book it self with great Zeal and Honesty 'T was what they al in their several day felt springing up in them that gave them to relish Persons Words and Things and as they savoured so they testified Their Experience was the Ground of their Knowledge And their inward Witnessing the Work and Will of God the Reason of their outward Witnessing for it unto Death it self Dial. p. 20 25 68 72. Cont. p. 23. pag. 88. * Which if it must be taken for any Reply he hath broken his Promise but if no Reply then it clears him not * These are both Abominable Lyes * Where is his Quotation for the Reader to Examine here * If T.H. did not pick and call out of our Adversaries Book●●o● t●●●● his Butchery ●gainst us but 〈◊〉 In partially Mo●●rate we should have fairer Deali●g● than we have from ●im Heb. 9.28 * In what Sense Christ is in Man and in what not is explained Serious Apology p. 35. Nat. Christ p. 49. Cont. p. 40. * Contin p. 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69.