drincking of wine performed by any persons after any manner or washing with water likewise true Sacraments I think you will not say it it is therefore necessary that there bee a concurrence of other matters viz That seing Sacraments are in relation and reference those references or relations must needes be annexed els they are not true Sacraments as a baptized person must baptize into the true Faith of Christ a person capable of baptisme A communion of men having title to the Lords Supper must break bread and drinck wine to remember Christ and shew forth his death till he come Therefore whereas you hold and teach that the whole bundel of the Antichristian constitution ministerie worship and Government of the assemblies are the Lords ordinances you teach a false word and whereas you being a false Church and Ministery doe baptize with water and break bread wine to remember a false Christ and a false Testament and a false Faith therein you declare plainly that you have not the true Sacraments and whereas in your Observe well you say Truly and Rightly respect grace in administring the VVord and Sacraments and therefore to preach the word Truly and Rightly to administer the Sacraments are no convertible signes of a true Church I answer That Truly and Rightly to administer doe also respect the outward manner of doing in the Essentiall relations spoken of before and not onely grace And so your Observe well is not worthy observation In your third essential propertie you wil needes have discipline no true convertible signe of a true Church Sir I confesse vnto you that the vse of the Censures of admonition excommunication which I suppose you cal discipline is not a convertible signe of a true Church but only powre title interest to vse them this title I deny you to have For how can you being in your constitution mighled with the world vnseperated poluted with so many Antichristian fornications as yet are extant in your assemblies have title to any of the Lords ordinances doth the Lord think you give his covenant new Testament purchased by the blood of Christ vnto such persons as trample vnder foot the whole Testament of Christ the ordinances therof hath the theef title to the true mans purse though he have the possession of it no more have you title to Chr. visibly though you vsurp him challendg him never so peremptorily wherefor to end this point of the properties of the true Church I say til you have Seperated your selves from al the wicked people Antichristian ordinances in your assemblies til you have vowed covenanted to embrace practise al the ordinances of Christs new Testament you can have no title or interest to the holy things of God vse them as long as you lift you abuse them Lastly to conclude this first part of the Section viz that your Churches are false churches I say to that which you object pag. 110. that many corruptions may be in a church yet it a true Church the constitution being true viz So long as they are not impenitent after conviction therfor Israel the Lords people so long as they retained their true cōstitution Ezech. 16.21.22 the men of Ephesus beleevers ignorant of the visible gifts of the Holy Ghost Act. 14.2 The Corinthians Saints though incest dronkennes fornication false doctryne contention much evil among them bicause they were not impenitent after twise admonition or conviction so forth of the rest but you wil confesse that the Prelates their faction are obstinate after conviction we avouch that the Puritanes are obstinate after conviction for they neither have answered nor can answer that we object against them therfor although you constitutiō had been true which was never yet your Church is become false being obstinate in sinne persecuting to death imprissonment losse of goods c. al that testify against her abhomin tions that this is a signe of a false Church read 2. King 17. Ierem. 3.8 Math. 23.37.38 Math. 21 33-43 Act. 19.9 The second point to be handled in this Section is that al your ministers are false ministers in handling whereof I wil proceed as in the former point of this Section viz First confirme the truth by arguments drawne from the Scriptures Secondly refute your fancyes wherby you would prove your ministery true Therefore in the first place to prove your ministers false Ministers I vse these Arguments The first Argument The true ministerie cannot be raised out of a false Church The Ecclesiastical assemblies of England are false Churches Therfor the ministers of those assemblies Ecclesiastical are false ministers The ground of this argument is propounded confirmed in the 7. Section where it hath been proved by divers vndeniable reasons that Christs ministerial powre whereof one part is the calling of Ministers is not given by succession to the Pope Bbs. or presbytery but to the body of the congregation if they be but two or three So that seing the true Church is in nature being before the ministery the ministerie is but one of the holy things given to the Church one part of Christs powre delegated to the Church one branch of that true title interest which the L. Iesus the Bridegrome husband of the Church giveth to the Bride the Spowse of Christ the true Church The Ministerie therfor must needes follow the Church be after the Church be raised out of the church therefore the true Ministery of Christ is only where the true Church of Christ is so it cannot be in the astemblies Ecclesiastical of England being not the true Churches of Christ The second Argument The true ministerie hath a true office in execution wherof it is exercised Rom. 12.7 1. Cor. 12.5.28 Fph 4.11 The ministerie of the Ecclesiastical assemblies of England have not a true office in execution wherof it is exercised Ergo The ministerie of the Ecclesiastical assemblies of England is not the true ministerie The foundacion of this argument is this viz that seing the ministerie of the Church of England ariseth out of the ministerie of the Church of Rome as a branch out of the root of the tree therfor it must needes be of the same nature kind with the ministerie of the Church of Rome For as a man begetteth a man one light commeth of another one Preist begetteth another in the old Testament so in ordination by succession one Minister maketh another therfor as the branch is of the same nature with the root the Sonne with the Father one candle light with another one Aaronical Preist with another So must the minister ordeyned be of the same nature office with him that ordeyneth him Seing therfor the ministerie of the Church of Rome is a popish Sacrificing Preisthood that is a false ministerie having a false office it must needes follow that the ministerie of the Church of England proceeding from the ministerie
to stay wayt for a better tyme til the civil Magistrate wil give his allowance vnder these pretences stil keeping them in Spiritual boundage to the abhominations of Antichrist retayned in the Land I say herby you manifestly discover vnto al the world that seing you know the wil of your Lord Mr. Christ doe it not you are worthy to be beaten with many stripes that seing you break the commaundements of Christ teach men so you are the least that is none in the Kingdome of Heaven practising flat contrary to the Apostles who thought it better to obey God then man yet the Magistrates that forbad them were the Magistrates of the true Church of the Iewes wherefore breefly to answer both Ministers professors To the professors I say Shew mee your faith by embracing the whole new Testament of Christ To the ministers I say Shew mee the Seale of your ministery by converting establishing a Church after the Apostolique Corinthian frame constitution I wil grant that then you are true ministers your disciples truly converted in the meane tyme I wil judg your visible standing in Christianity as it is visible your invisible being in Christianity I wil leave to the Lord who seeth in secreat who knoweth who are his not doubting but the Lord hath his thousands even in the depth of popery much more among you this is that Mr. Bern. which wee hold grant concerning this point Now for your objection which you for vs make answer pag. 129. 130. That private persons may convert I say you herein also are deceaved deale deceiptfully For you are to distingnish of conversion according to the circumstance of tyme wherein meÌ„ were converted to Christ Iohn converted baptized many into Christ Iesus before the visible Church of the new Testament was revealed which came vppon the day of Penâ—ecost Act. 2. Eph. 4.11 Thus were al the Disciples of Iohn of Christ converted of this conversion Faith must the places of the Evangelists be vnderstood as namely that Ioh. 4.39 others so were the Iewes Proselites some of Samaria converted for as yet Chr. was not preached to the Gentils which he himself for bad to be done Mat. 10. thus were meÌ„ converted to beleve that the Messias which they knew should come was come that Iesus the Sonne of God the Sonne of Mary was hee who vppon their conversion baptisme became Christs Disciples to learne practise whatsoever he should afterward teach them That this is so read Act. 18 23. 19.2.3 Now after the day of Pentecost conversion was larger as I may so speake in respect of the visible manifestatioÌ„ therâ—f other like considerations For then men were converted to the matter of the day of Pentecost to al that frame constitution of the church of the new Testament which was purchased by Christs death exhibited vnto the Apostles by the promise of the Spirit given vnto them Thus were men converted after the death resurrection ascension of Christ after the comming of the Holy Ghost as may be seen Act. 2 38-42 8.16.17 10 44-48 So that Iohn converted men to the Faith of Christ to be manifested after the day of Pentecost the Apostles converted men to the Faith of Christ already given exhibited Seing therfor that the new Testament of Christ is now confirmed established revealed manifestly in the Scriptures of the Apostles of our Lord al that are converted now are converted to the new Testament the ordinances there of or els they are not converted to vs visiblie This being thus premised as necessarily to be vnderstood for the true knowledg of true conversion in the next place we must take notice for the answering of the objection of private mens converting that Antichrist hath defaced the Faith of Christ in the whole new Testament so the true ministery therfor it must needes be that whosoever doth convert from Antichristianisme establisheth a people into the true Faith new TestameÌ„t of Christ performeth that work either as a minister of Antichrist or as an Apostle Prophet Evangelist of Christ or as a Private person For this is a sufficient enumeration of parts ther being no other sort off persons to convert men from Antichrist to Christ but one of these For you have heard that Pastors do not convert but feed the flock I suppose you dare not a vouch that the Ministers off Antichrist do convert to the true Faith new Testament off Christ Iesus neither dare you say that ther are now in the world the offices of Apostles Prophets Evangelists wherfor when men convert they do it as private persons Therfore choose Mr. Bern. which of these three you wil affirme then tel mee whither private persons doe not convert as Act. 11 19-21 this shal suffice for this point of converting performed by private persons in the rising vp from the Apostacy of Antichrist for the discovering of your objection answer Now from the pa. 130-141 you teach vs the doctryne of the vocation of ministers which I wil not altogether disalow nor approve wholly seing it aperteyneth not to our question I leave it wholy vntoucht come to that which is pa. 141-146 wher you endevour againe to prove your ministery true that after this manner They that are called of Christ having both gifts graces they that are also outwardly caled of the church being examined aproved elected ordeyned they that preach true doctrine administer the true Sacraments peâ—forme their office faithfully live conscionably are assisted by Chr. to convert soules are approved by the people are the true ministers of Christ The ministers of the Church of England have al these particulars Ergo the ministers of the Church of England are the true ministers of Christ I answer you Mr. Ber. that the Popish ministers have al these forsaid qualifications in common with the ministers of England I plead not of the degree or measure of these things for I confesse some of them to be much more in the English ministers but I speake of the kind or nature of the qualifications which I prove by induction thus 1. The Popish ministers many of them have excellent outward gifts graces asmuch learning vtterance zeale gravity as any ministers of England though al of them have not so as al the ministers of England have not so 2. The Popish ministers are called examined aproved elected ordeyned of the Church that is as you expound the cheef governors who are as true ministers as you are seing your ministery is a branch of the roote So are you 3. The Popish ministers preach the true doctryne of Christ administer his true Sacraments for you retaine the baptisme that men have in popery as true and they breake and eate bread and wine in remembrance of Christs death although you preach more truth
then they do administer baptisme the L. Supper more purely or rather lesse corruptly yet they have the same truths Sacraments that you have even the Scriptures baptizme the L. Supper 4. The Popish ministers many of them performe their office Faithfully in many things as Faithfully as you do the best you do not performe al the parts of the true ministery the worst of you are as bad as â—he worst popish preist 5. The popish ministers some of them live conscionably according to their rule the best of you do no more the worst of you are as vild beasts as the grossest shavelings in Rome 6. As the Popish ministers convert none visibly to the true Faith and new Testament of Christ vet I doubt not but that thousands are by them converted saved what Mr. Be. wil you condemne al the men that have lived from Gregory the great til the councel of Constance to this day vnder the dominions of the pope For shame do not so So though the forwardest ministers of England convert many invisibly to life Salvation by Christ yet you ordinarily say that the Formalists convert none the dumb ministers cannot convert bicause they cannot preach none of you al convert a man visibly to the true Faith taught in the new Testament of Christ but with al your might pervert men from it 7. Finally the popish ministers are approved by their people aswel as the best or worst of you are according to the dispositions of the people Seing therfor that al these things are as evident pregnant for the popish ministers as for you therfor either they are true ministers if you be true or els bicause they are fals as you say yet have al these forsaid qualifications therfor these qualifications make not a true ministery So that you see Mr. Ber. that you argument is weak to prove your ministery true you must seek out a better definition of a true ministery according therto shape your ministery if you wil have it true In the next place you with an objection answer would prove that although your ministers have a false entrance viz ordination of the Bb. yet may be true ministers namely by two reasons 1. For that none were ever ordeyned but by ecclesiastical persons as Apostles Evangelists Bbs. 2. a false entrance cannot make a false ministery as in mariage I answer First if it were yeelded you that ther could be no true ministers made without ordination of Apostles Evangelists Bbs. yet bicause your L. Bbs. are not those true Apostles Evangelists Bbs. of the primitive institution but rather the Servants of Antichrist as your forwardest professors preachers instantly affirme therefore ther ordination is Antichristian and so your ministery is false in the entrance but Secondly I deny it to be true which you affirme for ordination by procedent Elders For I have proved vnto you by many vndeniable reasons that the whole ministeriall powre of Christ is given to the body of the Church whereby as in the first constituting of Churches so in the rising of Churches from Antichristianisme the body hath powre to al the Holy ordinances of Christ for ther mutual edification to life Salvation whereof the true ministery is a principal therefore the Church hath powre to enjoy the true ministery you confesse the Church wanting officers hath powre to elect her officers which is the principal Act. 6. 14. why not to approve ordeyne which are but the inferior lesse principal Further you may read Act. 1. that before ther were any Apostles actually in office the Church did chose Mathias into the rome of Iudas that by a commoÌ„ consent wherfor this first exception of yours is nothing Your Second exception is as weake that seing a faulty entrance into mariage which is one ordinance of God doth not disanul it why should a faulty entrance into the ministery disanul it I say the violating of accidental circumstances through ignorance shall not disanul any of Gods ordinances For then their should be no true having of any ornance of God whatsoever Seing it is impossible wee should perfectly strictly keep all every circumstance therto aperteyning but the wilful breach of essential parts of the ordinance doth corrupt the ordinance make it false as for example The matter or forme being false the ordinance cannot possible be true A man marieth a mayde that is 6. yeer old or a woman marieth an Evnuch the mariage is false for the matter is false A man taketh a woman not as his wife but as a concubine as the yonger brethren the geÌ„tlemen of Venice doe this is no true mariage bicause it wanteth the true forme of mariage so your Churches assume them ministers suppose they be the true pastors described in the word as I am perswaded your Puritanes so endevour I say bicause your churches or Ecclesiastical assemblies are false your ministery is not true For a true Minister a false Church cannot mary together Further if your Church ministery were true yet if you should be presented by a Patron ordeyned by a Prelate inducted by an Archdeacon contrary to the wil of the Church the mariage is false bicause the calling is false So then you see Mr. Ber. how litle your similies help you wherein notwithstanding you by your disciples are thought Specialy to excel and to have the prehemenence over your fellow Preists And heer you bring a flourish out of the 10. of Iohn to prove your ministers true ministers what Mr. Bern. in good sooth doe you plead this for all your Ministers of England Speak plainly double not with God man doe you in your conscience think that al the ministers of England eveÌ„ your dumb Preists whome you have excluded by your covenant your grosse nonresidents idle bellyes the Cathedral or Collegiate Preists your double benificed men that al these every one of them doe enter in by the dore have entrance by the porters opening know their sheep by name lead theÌ„ by sound doctrine holy life save many destroy none Speak plainly Mr. Ber. to this point seek no shifts yet these are the only men alowed by Law in your ministery For be he never so dumb idle non resident wicked yet if he subscribe weare the geere do read the Service book wil do homage to his Spiritual Lords their Courts if he be amicus curiae if he be conformable obedient al is wel is not this even so this you know in your conscience Mr. Bern. therfor pag. 143. Lin. 7.8 you speake warily you say The propertyes of a true Shepheard agree wel with Ministers in England you dare not say with al the Ministers of England Therefore by your owne conscience al the Ministers of England are not true Shepheards your Lords the Prelates wil con you litle thank for this but let