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A13763 Newes from the north. Otherwise called The conference betvveen Simon Certain, and Pierce Plowman, faithfully collected and gathered by T.F. student T. F., student. 1579 (1579) STC 24062; ESTC S118412 60,813 88

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executors That is very true also quoth Pierce except they be wicked persons bothe the sufferer and the executor Then quoth our Hoste séeing all punishments are fear full and gréeuous vnto the sufferer therof no pleasure but rather sorowe and gréefe of hart vnto the erecutors therof such and so must néeds be the first causes and occasiōs therof That is very true quoth Pierce You knowe quoth our Hoste that the causes and occasiōs of punishment is sin wickednes and misgouernment of life for the woord of God telleth vs that the reward of sinne is death All that is very true quoth Pierce Very well then quoth our Hoste these Propositions which you haue graunted doo suffise for the matter which I haue taken in hand to prooue which is that these great Fées and charges were neuer ment nor yet are receiued or conuerted into priuate or proper vse I pray you Neighbour quoth Pierce let me heare how it is prooued for I promise you faithfully for any thing I haue yet herd your prooues are farther to fet You knowe quoth our Hoste that the nature of the vngooly is to be quarelous and contencious and dayly prouoking one an other and also to take no wrong doo no right That is very true quoth Pierce You knowe quoth our Host that the common weapō wher with they wil be auēged vpon eche other is the Law which indéed is the Magistrate as ye haue already graunted so that vpon the matter he is made the executor of their wilfulnes and vengeaunce which they will néeds doo vpon eche other which thing you haue alredy confessed to be gréeuous and vnpleasant to euery good man Therfore hath it euer béen and yet is thought and that very wisely and truely that the likeliest way meane to disswade their wilfulnes which no reason looue nor feare of GOD could disswade was to make their wilfulnes as déere and as heauy vnto them as reasonably might be doon to the end that they should not so lightly and for euery trifle ver and trouble bothe the Magistrate one an other which effect although it failed to woork that their madnes would not be restrayned therby that yet their vngodlines might return to the profit and reléefe of others their Neighbours Brethern that were better affected so by one self and same meane the vngodly punished fléeced and the godly amended inriched therby that this was their meaning y was the first assessors therof common experience teacheth vs for in néedfull and necessary actions as debt detinew and account and such like the charges are so reasonable as that no man would in conscience giue lesse The reason is for that they are actions of common right and such as must néeds day by day arise betwéene a man and his Brother neither doo they dishonest either of the parties which I dare not affirm vpon actions vpon cases neither did they so iudge of them as I verily beléeue and therfore did they set double and treble charges thereupon for greater is the charges in a brabble for a woord spoken then for thrée hundred pound of honest det So that the Magistrate who for such Ale house actions and brabbles should otherwise neuer be at rest except he should deny them his help which might be slaunderous and perillous to the whole estate The Magistrate I say of pure pittie and compassion was forced to set great charges vpon them for the small fauour that he bare vnto them vnto their first causes occasions The greatnes of all which charges not withstanding yet doo we dayly sée how the vngodly run togither by heaps like brute beasts and yet I dare safely say that by the greatnes of these charges and the terrour therof many a brabling matter hath béene and is dayly put vp without any reuenge sought therof and many a one hauing pursued and recouered in his action yet haue his charges so gallded him that he hath béene easier to deale with all his life after And so by this meane many a wilfull body brought to knowe him self and to honor God therby I cannot tell Neighbour Simon quoth Pierce but I my self haue had two or thrée brabbles that haue kept me dooing these seuen yéeres in which time I am sure I haue spent abooue fiftie pound beside my charges to and fro losse of time and my hinderaunce at home And what haue ye gotten for all this quoth our Hoste These papers quoth he Wel woorth fiftie points quoth our Hoste I think verily quoth our Hoste if any honest Neighbour had néeded to haue borowed ten Pound therof you would not haue it so ready to haue pleasured him withall If I should say truely quoth Pierce I think the very same What are you assessed vnto the poore in your parish quoth our Hoste A peny a wéek quoth Pierce And think you that enough quoth our Hoste Yea verily quoth Pierce Loe Sir quoth our Hoste whether commeth this vnto my saying and maintenaunce of these great Fées and charges or not Who can deny the excellency of this institution wherby the Couetous vngodly men are shot one against an other and doo punish eche other and wherby also so plentiful prouision is made for the godly poore at their charges and yet no thank to them therfore and that those things from the which they would depart vnto any Honest or godly vse or purpose with as good will as from their eyes to be plucked out of their heads or their tripes out of their bellyes by this meane vndesired of their owne accord they bring it in by handfuls so as it hath béene sayd plentiful prouision made for their godly Neighbours at their charges and yet no thank vnto them therfore Call you this a prouiding for the poore Neighbour quoth Pierce I would I had giuen you the best horse in my Plough to make this saying true and I swere to you quoth he prooue it true and you shall haue him yet or this day Seuen night for that would case my hart if I might perceiue that any godly person hath fared the better or were amended by any parte of all my great expences For then yet should I think that I haue doone some good with all the losse of my money Why Neighbour Pierce quoth Simon doo you doubt that all these sommes or the greatest part therof commeth not to the vse of the common welth and to the reléefe and sustenaunce of the godly poore and other easements of common things in maintenaunce of the common Welth Nay Neighbour Simon quoth he I dout it not for I am fully perswaded the contrary Truely Neighbour Pierce quoth he this is an vncharitable and a very erronious oppinion and that I will prooue vnto you by reasons manifest and apparant such as your self haue alredy graunted confessed I pray you neighbour Simō quoth Pierce let me heare how Simon approoueth these fees and charges as publique and not priuate by
although they be godly and probable yet as I sayd before they stand doutful for the olde Prouerb Honors chaunge maners I beléeue the godly and the learned doo dout whether it be taken in the better part or in the wurse for I am very sure that many are wurse disposed and much more vngodly in high and honorable calling then while they were in meane estate and degrée Neighbour Pierce quoth our Hoste there is no rule so generall that it admitteth not exception albeit I ●out not nor euer did that honors chaunge maners is and euer was meant in the better part For the wise man saith He that is vngodly in welth how much more vngodly would he be in pouertie The examples are many that doo prooue that honors chaunge men to the better namely of Saule of whom it is said that béeing called from a simple boy after his Inauguration he felt him self sudenly chaunged and as the book saith he felt a new hart in him The like examples we haue of many Kings Prophets in the holy Scripture But to come néerer bothe for the time and also the place in our English History we read of that noble King H. the fifth who in his Fathers life was of euill gouernment and kept company with riotors and vnthrifts so that there was small hope of him but after the death of H. the fourth when this yung man was placed in his kingdom he sent for all his olde companions who were not a little glad therof but when they weare come into his presence he sharply rebuked them and giuing them small rewards yet better then he thought them woorthy he forbad them during their liues to come within xij miles of the Court and that vpon great penaltie All these examples doo manifestly prooue that liberall reward of vertue and high and Honorable calling doo increase vertue in them in whom it is alredy and causeth them in whom it is not saue only in apparaunce yet for pure shame to imbrace it séeing that otherwise hot coales are heaped vppon their heads through their shamelesse vnthankfulnes vnto them that haue so thorowly prouoked thē with the greatnes of their benefits And therfore against all these reasons and proofs to say that the Magistrate and Officer should priuatly Couet and conuert so great summes of treasure it were to shamefull and slaunderous considered that they are the effects of so euill causes as hath already béene shewed And considered also the horrible and wicked conclusion that would ensue therupon as also hath already béene prooued Neighbour Simon quoth Pierce neuer tell me what might or dooth insue therupon but consider the trueth and the matter as it is in déed And if these great fées and charges doo not come vnto their receiuers and takers in proper and priuate what mean● they to make so great labour sute fréendship and cost to get those offices and callings And how commeth it to passe that by the meanes of such offices such as before were of small habilitie come to purchase a Barons liuing yea twaine or thrée Shortly that their care is greater to heare and learne where any Land or Lordship is to be solde then for the Money wherewith to purchase the same Simon confirmeth his assertion touching the desire to beare office to be good by the Etimologie and exposition of the vvoord Officium Chap. 9. NEighbour Pierce quoth our Hoast all these matters are easily deuided vnto the which thus I answere To the first which is their great desire to be in such Offices of receit I say you misiudge of their desire because you doo not vnderstād the meaning of this woord Office and doo think him to be an English man wheras in very déed his Father is an Italian whose proper signification and meaning you doo not vnderstand for in our English tung Office is no more to say nor nothing els but Seruice so that whosoeuer desireth an Office hée desireth to doo seruice orles a place wherin to doo seruice now all men knowe that a priuate man is not able to compare with the Magistrate or Officer in abilitie and power Therfore to desire an Office is to desire to be better abled to expresse and declare the hartie goodwil and affection which hée hath to bée seruiceable vnto God and his common welth for that in priuat estate his power answereth not vnto his goodwil therin and therfore the better man the more desirous to be in Office and in the more Offices for the greater is his power to shew his good affection towards God who is the Giuer of all these things ¶ Neighbour Simon quoth Pierce I cannot tel what Cuntrie mans Office is neither doo I greatly force whether his Father be an Italian Spaniard or Frenchman but if he be the same in Latin that seruice is in English I am sure that both in Latin French Spanish and English hée stinketh when he is to frely offered and that I am very sure did Aesop mean in his Fable of the Sowe great with pig vnto whome saith hée there came a For who alleadging vnto her his great skil in the art of a Midwife profferd her his seruice toward her deliuerance vnto whome shée answered that the greatest and best seruice that hée could doo vnto her was to kéep him far inough from her which shee also prayed him to doo wherby you may gather what the Authors opinion was vpō this voluntary offer of seruice and yet hée dooth not alleage that the For offered any money I suppose because hée had no money to offer But Simō Magus offered money in y Acts of the Apostles and what the holy Ghost thought therof you may there vnderstand Neighbour Pierce quoth our Hoast this is a colde reason and no Argument to say that a mans earnest desire to haue an Office argueth his desire of priuate gaine proffit and so for his great desire to doo good condemne him of euil without proof therof Neighbour Simon quoth Pierce I doo not so barely reason neither so nakedly as you haue alleaged if you did mée right in repetition of my Argument not intercepting the same nor seuering the partes ther of as you haue doon and so haue answered the first part by it self which is the weakest and haue said nothing to the second part which is their great purchase and the strength effect of the first for my Argument taken wholly togither is thus much to say that their great desire to haue the Offices and their great purchase of Lands and liuing following the same sheweth that from the beginning there was ment nought els but priuate pouching for euer the act that is last in exception is the first in Imaginatiō in all mens dooings this is moste assured Neighbour quoth our Hoast this Argument of yours which you holde so forcible is of no force at all whither the parties therof be considered iointly or seuerally neither dooth this great desire to be in Office neither the
he and then I shall giue you an answere héerin so causing him to tary dinner he let him depart and this was vpon a Thursday The next day béeing Friday this Gentleman sent for the Farmer of the same péece of land who came thither with him thrée hansome young men his sonnes So when he was by the Landlords commaundement brought before him he asked him of what age he was He answered lxxv yéeres He asked him how long he had dwelled in that Farm. He answered that he had dwelt there all his life for he was borne in it and his father before him You knowe quoth the Gentleman that I am now become your Landlord I knowe it very wel quoth he and I beséech you of your fauour What will you giue for a new lease of xxi yéeres quoth the Gentleman for you knowe your olde lease is néer an end Sir quoth y poore man let me giue you reason only that I may be able to dooe my Prince and your woorship seruice to reléeue my poore neighbours as hitherto I haue doone and haue béene wel able Very wel quoth the Gentleman be héere againe vppon Munday next and then ye shall vnderstand more The poore man his duty doon departed The next Munday béeīg Mūday next before Bartholmew day the poore Man was come again and brought with him a couple of fat Capōs about an houre or twaine after came this Churle very wel mounted his Gelding not déere of x. I. and behinde him was trussed a fat Buck which he presented vnto the Gentleman by one of his seruants To be short he was willed to come in to the M. into a close little Parlor whither were called also this olde Farmer I my self whom it pleased him to vouch safe all courtesie and humanitie bothe in this and also in other matters so that only wée foure were there sauing a young man attendant vpon his person This doon the Gentleman began fréend quoth he what accusatiō doo you bring against this poore man pointing him to the Farmer Sir ꝙ be none I doo not knowe the man No quoth the Gentlemā except ye can accuse him of euil ye haue alredy condemned your self therof would doo me Why so Sir quoth he Mary Sir quoth the Gentleman for he cannot be guiltlesse of euill that séeketh the destructiō and death of a guiltlesse man. Sir quoth the fellowe ye charge me wrongfully I neuer sought any mans death Sir quoth the Gentleman he that seeketh to take away the sustenaunce of a mans life y man say I séeketh his death that by so much a more cruel mean as it is a more cruell and fearfull death to starue of hunger or colde then it is to be quickly and readily dispatched and murthered and so soone rid out of payne Ye haue quoth he desired to take this poore mans Farm from him béeing his only stay and haue so bidden for it that I know he may not liue but in extreme misery if he take it at your hands Sir ꝙ be yée are the first great purchaser y euer I heard of this opinion I haue six Farmes quoth he takē all after this maner at their hands that doo think them selues bothe wise and woorshipfull yet was there neuer put vnto me such a problem as this by any of them yet drink I a C. l. a yéer by them abooue all charges Fréend quoth y Gentleman other mens dooing are no president vnto me further then they stand with my dutie vnto God and with the discharging of my calling for he hath bidden vs by his prophet to stand vp and enquire after the olde wayes and if they be good then to goe in them or els not which béeing spoken generally vnto all estates how much more vnto them of my calling and therfore admitting that such hard extreme dealing might stand with the dutie of euery priuat person either vnto God or vnto their Countrye common Welth or els with their owne assuraunce which I vtterly deny yet could it not stand with my dutie nor of any man of my calling First for the priuat person to prooue that such extrēe dealing standeth not with his dutie towards God all his cōmandemēts doo manifestly prooue wherin be so straightly cōmandeth vnto vs charitie looue ●enignitie one towards an other without the which a mā dare not say that he looueth God whōe he neuer saw neither that he hath any faith now what looue or charitie is there in him that letteth vnto his Neighbour a lease of hunger want all misery calamitie so molesteth the man which God forbad to doo vnto the Dxe The next to wit it standeth not with his dutie to the common welth the very woord common welth dooth sufficiently showe for if a man liue in the cōmō welth he must haue some of the ioyes frutes therof or els it is to him no common welth namely traueling labouring fore therin neither will be that a man bear any good wil toward that common welth wherin the ioyes sorowes welth and woe are so vnequally deuided this standeth not with the assurance of the common welth which increaseth by the vnitie looue concord falleth decayeth by their contraryes These the two first béeing prooued it resteth me to prooue y such extreme taking exacting standeth all with th assurance of the very partie him self in euery priuat mans case this séemeth straunger harder to prooue then the residue hath béene but it is not so namely vnto him that goeth with the Prophet Dauid into the house of God there inquireth therof for there he shall plainly vnderstand that all is not cléerly gotten that is put into the purse for I my self haue knowen a number quoth he that haue raised iitj. times double y reuenues that their ancesters liued welthily woorshipfully vpō yea before their death would fayne haue solde land if they had had any The cause wherof is for that God who is not present nor called to councell in such extreme taking wil neuer be present nor giue councel or aduise in the bestowing spending of the same either to his honor glory or els to their owne benefit but giueth them ouer to delight in vile and vayne pleasures and to be gainfull and beneficiall vnto the Ministers of voluptuousnes and sensualitie and flatterers whose fréendship endeth when the tap leaueth running and when a man 's owne liuing is gon and spent there is nothing to be had at their hands but a mock or a flout But the Landlord that dealeth wel with his tenant hath of him an assured and vnfained Fréend and that is prooued by the very duties and seruices which by our ancient lawes are incident vnto tenures For what Fréend or what Seruant shall a man finde that wil so abace him self as knéeling vpon his knées his hed vncouered his waste vngirded holding his hands ioynt betwéen the hands of his fréend