â—â—s heere â—â—g 16. e that no more but the shedding of his bloud onely and meerely is the iust and full satisfaction of all our sinnes even in the righteous and sincere iudgment of God Then we absolutly deny your Assertion as before we haue don the like As for your a 1 Pet. 1 Rev. 5. â— alleaged Scriptures we answer them as we did generally b Treat pag. 8.9 before that they meane not the meere bloud of Christ nor only the body singly and simply considered but that togeather with the proper sufferings of his Soule also they were the iust and full satisfaction and redemption Against which you have nothing any where And likewise our advised and resolut answere is to c pag. 58 60 61 7â— c. all the rest of your scriptures which most tediously and vainly you heape vp scatter every wherein your former treatise to this effect as if they contayned somwhat for your purpose when as indeed there is not one text any where that hath any meaning of your strange conceit So that wee shall have no need to trouble our selves any more heereafter about any of them Yet d pag. 24â— heere you vrge a reason against vs Jf our Soules be not redeemed by the bloud of Christ our bodyes have no benefit of redemption you meane from death But we e 1. Pet. 1 Rev. 5.9 are redeemed not we shal be Ergo it is our Soules which are redeemed our bodyes are not redeemed as yet in this life Wherein we have to note 3. things 1. Your Proposition is vaine and illogicall having no consequence in it at all Which maketh mee to thinke that I hit your meaning right and mistooke you not in my former booke Howbeit to try this your sentence heere what if our Soules were not at all redeemed by Christes bloud but some other way or not by his bloud meerely and onely which indeede is our quaestion will it follow that therefore our bodyes are still mortall and therefore not redeemed from death Or what if our Soules be redeemed by his bloud as indeed they are though not wholly nor only thereby What followeth then from this Nay what if our Soules and Bodyes were redeemed wholly and only by Christs bloud Is these any consequence that therefore our bodyes should now be redeemed from death and never dy Truly I cannot discerne but that your proposition meaneth some such consequence as this which is to me a vey strang reason Yet that which you ad f Pag. 2â— afterward is more strang Jf our Soules be not redeemed wholly by the meere bloud of Christ For thus still I say you must make your wordes or ells you aske the very Quaestion then our bodyes have vtterly no good even no good at all by the death of Christ. In which sequele verily I can see neither head nor taile Chose you now whether you will that you speake this sophistically or absurdly For I cannot discerne it I leave it therefore to your self to determine But perhaps you will yet againe go backe to that you excused your selfe withall before You will meane that our bodies in this life have no benefit of redemption from death even no more then the bodies of Infidels And this plainly you avouch for truth Is this true Are not our bodies now already freed from the curse the sting of death from all the hurt harme that properly and naturally is in death Is it not made vnto vs a quiet sleepe and a peaceable rest an entrance for our Soules into Heaven a putting off of sin to our bodies in such wise that Christ taketh from it the a name of Death and calleth it but b a passage â—oh 8.51 Or have the Jnfidels also thus much benefit in death â—oh 5 2â— as wee have in it by our redemption in Christe I know not therefore how to terme this your assertion I forbeare to name it as it deserveth it is more then strange that Infidels bodies should have as much benefit of nedemption from death as our bodies have by Christ Dy I grant or cease to breath we must and do still even as they do And this death by the naturall property of it is a part of Gods Curse but to the faithful there are great benefits ioyned even in death by the gracious dealing of God peculiarly towardes his children which also their bodies are partakers of thorough the death of Christ The naturall sting is taken out of it for the godly yet it remayneth to the Infidells and hurteth them by retayning even their bodies though dead in vnder Gods dreadfull Curse Wherefore it makes many to thinke that indeed you vttered this matter somewhat otherwise in your Sermons then heere you doe now publish it and it perswadeth mee still that c I mistooke you not â—â—eat 1. â—â—g 11. seeing this your turning setting of it is so vnhansom For every one may see by this your handling of it that then you said more then heere you expresse and heere you would faine fashion it to somwhat but you cannot Yea your own words bewray som alteration froÌ„ that which so confidently you preached where you say Whatsoever the wordes were that you might vse which you do not acknowledge to be these that I bring â—ag 240. Lastly d you grant that you vsed this reason in handling the power of Christes death that is when you preached it For now in this Treatise you have cleane left it out for ought that e I can see which bewrayeth that it was such 〈◊〉 88.113 as your selfe saw was not to be maintayned howsoever heere you strive to set some colour vpon it though yet still in vaine Before we depart from this point That not the bloud of Christ nor his flesh meerely and only without respect to the merit of his whole Soule was the full price of Redemption heere is fit place to shew how sundry of the Ancient Fathers do agree with vs sufficiently in this matter although afterward in your booke you seeme to bring them against vs. But indeed so they seeme onely for in truth they are with vs as by these following we may see First a Ireâ— 5. Irenaeus The Lord bought vs with his owne bloud and gave his soule for our soules his flesh for our flesh b Cyr. de 〈◊〉 fid ad Tâ—â— Cyrill He bestowed his flesh as a ransome for our flesh and made his Soule likewise a price of redemption for our Soules although he lived againe being by nature life it selfe c Naz. in trâ—â— 49. ad Clâ—â— Nazianzen maketh every part of man to be sanctified by the like in Christ our condemned flesh by his flesh our soule by his soule our vnderstanding by his vnderstanding d Ambr. 〈◊〉 Luc. 22. 〈◊〉 trist doloâ—â— c. Ambrose saith Maerorem animae nostrae suae animae maerore abolevit He abolished the sorrow of our Soule by the sorrow of
sense it is that the Reprobates and the Elect after death are said to be togither â—â—n 28.19 a To morrow thou thy sons shal be with vs saith the supposed Samuel to Saul Not that there is any positive thing common to the Elect and Reprobates after death which b you observe wel â—â—g 396. 〈◊〉 Simpâ—â—li â—â—qaest 3. â—â—g 209. but only that they be alike dead and alike remain in death Yet I say they are not like any further This c Aust very well sheweth whom you d bring saith he mortuus mortem vivo proenuntiabat Fathers 〈◊〉 it me our 〈◊〉 of Hadea that is being dead he foreshewed death to him that yet lived So that it was the same condition of death both to Saul and Samuell but not the same fruition of happines Thus the old Latin Translatour vseth Infernum as coÌ„monly for Hades so sometimes for e Thanatos death â—ct 2.24 â— Cor. 15.55 â— Act. 2.24 â—piph in â—â—nacephal 〈◊〉 Anchor â—ustin In â—â—yph and sometimes f Mors death for Hades Epiphanius readeth the g Text indifferently h Thanátou or i Hadou as reckoning theÌ„ in effect all one Justin Martyr long before saith k Christ a little before his death noted the folly of those men tôn nomizónton me êinai auton Christon all hegonménon thanatôsein auton kai hós koinon ánthropon en hadou menein that thought him not to be Christ but that he should dy and remaine in Hades as a common man Hee meaneth not heere as a wicked man in Hell but as any common man whether good or bad dying abideth in Death or in the Dominion of Death or in the world of the Dead Irenaeus saith l Heerein Christ legem mortuorum servavit did but as others do that Dy â—nae lib. 5. 〈◊〉 vlt. conversed 3. dayes vbi erant Mortui sancti where the dead Saintes were And this hee calleth Locum invisibilem the vnseene World What meaneth this but Hades â—es an inviâ—â— place of yeâ—ed Soules as we take it Yea a little before he expresly calleth it Paradise Nevertheles I grant that he thought this vnseene world was indeed beneath in the earth wherein his proofes do vnterly faile him as your selfe do fully grant and professe in that point aswell as wee Againe m hee further sheweth that in the n Scripture he taketh Hades to be all one with Death â—ib 5.13.3.38 â— Cor. 15.55 or the Dominion of Death where he readeth the Text thus Absorpta est mors in victoriâ vbi est mors aculeus tuus vbi est o mors victoria tua â— Greek â—â—des Death is swallowed vp in victorie Death where is thy sting Death where is thy victory And he addeth Haec autem iustè dicentur tunc c. These thinges shall truly be spoken then when this mortall and corruptible flesh about which Death is and which is holden down by a certaine Dominion of Death arising vp into life shall put on incorruption and immortality Then verily shall death be overcome when the flesh which is holden by it shall come foorth out of the Dominion thereof Thus he taketh heere Thanatos and Hades for one and the same thing in effect that is for Death and the power of death and nothing els Tertulian doth likewise for a Terrulâ— Anima 〈◊〉 speaking of Inferi which he taketh for the same that Hades is hee noteth it as the place Quò vniversa Humanitas trahitur whither all mankind must go And therefore of Christs going thither he saith b Cap. 5â— Quia homo mortuus secundum Scripturas sepultus secundum easdem hic quoque legi satisfecit formâ humanae mortis apud inferos functus Because also he was a man therefore he dyed according to the Scriptures was buryed according to the same also heere he satisfied the common law of nature by following the forme of mens Dying and going to the world of the Dead Tertullian is for vs yet further Hee taketh Hades in the c 1 Cor. â— Newe Testament meerely for Death or the Dominion of Death even as Irenaeus before did Thus he readeth the Text that often times d De Râ—carn c. 4â— 54. Vbi est mors aculeus tuus Vbi est “ Hadeâ— mors contentio tua Aculeus autem mortis delinquentia virtus autem delinquentiae Lex O Death where is thy sting O Death where is thy force The sting of Death is sinne the force of sinne is the Law And againe e Adverâ—cion 5. Scriptum est apud f Hose Creatorem Vbi est g Sheol 〈◊〉 Hades mors victoria vel contentio tua Vbi est mors aculeus tuus Verbum autem hoc Creatoris est apud Prophetam It is written by the Creatour Death where is thy victory or thy force or strife Death where is thy sting This is the worde of the Lord God by the Prophet Ozee Still he maketh Hades Sheol nothing els but Death in these places And saith he Deo gratias dicit h 1 Cor. â— Apostolus quod nobis victoriam vtique de morte prestitit The Apostle in the New Testament applying words of the Prophet to the Resurrection giveth thanks to God because he causeth vs to get a victory indeed of Death So still he maketh Hades to be Death and not Hell Which yet is further most cleerely to be seene i De Idoâ— cap. 13 〈◊〉 See also 〈◊〉 before pâ—â— Lazarus apud inferos in sinû Abrahae refrigerium consecutus c. Lazarus in the world of the Dead inioyeth comfort in Abrahams bosom contrariwise the Rich man is in the torments of fire both of them there receaving their divers rewardes How cleere is this that he maketh Hades and Inferos even in a Luke also â—â—â—e 16.23 to be nothing but the common state and world of the Dead Wherevpon the learned Junius noteth thus Observandum autem quod ait Apud Jnferos etiam de Lazaro Nam inferos Latini Patres vt Graeci Haden pro omni loco aut statû mortuorum dixerunt promiscuè Atque in hunc sensum Lazarus Dives apud inferos collocantur 〈◊〉 before â—â—â—g 162. â—â—â—m de â—it 〈◊〉 anima 〈◊〉 55. Quomodo b Irenaeus c Chrysostomus ex verbis Luc. 16.23 locuti sunt TertullÃanus locis quamplurimis This therefore it is that Tertullian saith in another place d Constituimus omnem animam apud inferos sequestrari in diem iudicij We determine that every mans Soule is kept apart in the worlde of the dead til the day of iudgment And Are all soules theÌ„ in the power of the kingdom of Death penes inferos Will you nill you there you shall finde punishments and comfortes as in Lazarus and the Rich man For why should you not thinke that the Soule may be both punished and comforted in inferis in the Worlde of the dead Neither doth he c Montanize in this as
h Through death Christ destroyed him that had the power of death that is the Divell Pag. 179. Whereby i it is evident that Hell is spoyled of all right and claime to the members of Christ hee brake c. I hope in this life the godly are the members of Christ then in this life they are fully freed from Hell for euer Wherfore it is very vntrue that Hell properly taken hath any possession of the iust and handfast or power on them or that Hell is not fully subdued for them vntill the Resurrection I graunt that the common death heere is called an enemy Cor. 15.26 but he meaneth not such an Enemy as Hell is especially as this is spoken touchinge the godly Yet it is an Enemie even to them not as any Curse at all but as a Memoriall consequent of the old Curse like as a scarie is where was a deadly wound also as a peaceable and quiet stopp or stay vnto them â—â—ea because 〈◊〉 is painâ—ull â—o the flesh in 〈◊〉 his life that their whole persons cannot yet enioy their appointed felicitie Howbeit for all this toward them it hath not the least affinitie with Hell at all Therfore Hades heere in no sort signifyeth Hell but only Death or the power of Death or the world and kingdom of Death or something to that effect onely Yea the very text seemeth thus to expound it selfe saying Where is thy sting O Hades The sting of Death is sinne Where the later seemeth a very direct answer and exposition of the former words Thus The sting of Death or Hades is sinne noting these 2. wordes Hades and Death as Synonimaes for one thing beeing applyed to men Or if “ Pag. 408. you will haue them to differ He may take Hades for the * As it vtterly â—aketh away 〈◊〉 witholdeth â—rom a visible â—â—ate Power strength of Death which the brain-sick Idolators made a God or the Dominion and Kingdome of Death These respectes Hades might well haue with the Apostle which differ from Thanatos Death the meere separation of the Soule from the Body which yet in effect are all one and haue no difference touching our purpose Like as we saw a Pa. 1â— c. 1 before howe all Authours have vsed them Further The Grave of the Wicked is not to be nâ—med nor reckoned Hell properly nor any part thereof In Hell there wanteth not sense of paine If you say it is an entrance to hell and that which holdeth and reserveth the wicked vnto hell Yet then it is not Hell for even thus the Grave and Hell doe greatly differ Finally Hades is b See 〈◊〉 pag. 1â— adversarie to the Resurrection But Hell would not bee adversarie to the Resurrection Therefore Hades heere is not hell no not to the wicked Death in deed and the Dominion of Death is an adversarie to the Resurrection and at that day it shal be vanquished and vtterly abolished when all flesh shall liue againe As for Hell that shall increase theÌ„ and bee advanced when all the wicked both bodyes and Soules shal be subdued vnder it for ever Therfore Hades heere is not hell but the power of Death as hath bene saide or the Dominion of Death or meerely to that effect Also we are to note that the Apostle heere plainly alludeth to that of Hoseah c Hose O Sheol ò kingdom of death or power of ' Death I wil be thy destruction Not o Hell For the Prophet speaketh this to comfort Israel in their captivitie against their continuall Destructions and razings out from this world shewing that now the Lord would stay his iudgement that way Death which had consumed them should now destroy them no more but they should liue and flourish againe This the Apostle might notably allude vnto speaking of the ResurrectioÌ„ As for Hell if the Prophet had meant it as he doeth not the Apostle could make no allusion to it nor haue any thing to deale wch it in this matter of the ResurrectioÌ„ simply So that where you say what reason is there to exclude out of these words Christs victorie over Hell it is very weake What reason is there to include it where the Apostle speaketh only of our resurrection from bodily Death and of nothing els Next we come to the RevelatioÌ„ First a Rev. I have the Keyes of Hades that is of Destruction or of the * The â—â—ble wâ—â—â— the Dâ—â—â— kingdome of death and of Death Or we may take them as 2. words for one and the same thing that is both of them for Death For heere Christ sheweth only that as He was dead so nowe he hath overcome Death hath power to dy no more as I hauâ— b Treaâ— pa 11â— heeretofore noted What shew of reason haue c Pa 17 you then to bringe in heere Christes power over the Damned Soules in Hell Because there is mention â—lswhere of the Key of hell Therefore the Key of hâ—des heer is the same What color of reasoÌ„ is there in this Again a One sitteth on a pale horse whose name was Death Rev. 6.8 Hades Desâ—â—â—on the world of the Dead or the Kingdom of Death followed aâ—ter â—â—m Thâ—â— in no wise can be Hel because the text addeth Power 〈…〉 them to slay with the sword and with samine and death and with wilde beasts Hell slayeth none in that sorte these are not the weapons of Hell but of the Dominion and Power of Death thâ—se and such other mo â—ag 406. are the proper weapons b You take it to bâ— the power of the Divell because the Divell slayeth somâ—times the bodyes of men Which you proue by the bodily slaying and siniting of Iob and his children This indeed is the thing which we holde This is not the Torments of Hell in the place of Damned these be onely bodily harmes and death So that heereby you confirme our purpose for we denie not but God somtime vseth Satan to punish and to slay the bodies of men But seeing this is nothing but Death not Hell which then is inflicted therefore it is bâ—st to take Hades heere most generally as the nature of it is for the Power of Death or the world of the Dead Hell by no meanes it can be â—â—g 398. You tell me in c one place that my best skill is in varying phrases It is better to vary phrases then to vary opinions as you very often doe I vary phrases to expresse Hades which in Authours is not alwayes the same thing or at least not after the same maner Whose generall largenes which it properly hath can not in one word be expressed in English Wherefore my varying of phâ—ases to this purpose I hope is pardonable sith indeed it is necessarie That coÌ„iecture of mine of the 4th part of the worlde 's not going to Hell at once I never esteemed it worth the standing on I he last place is †Death and Hades
Goates a slaine a Scapegoat * Pag. 23. You obiect heere against 1. that I abuse the Text. That were a great fault but let vs view the text Thus are the very expresse wordes which you also recite * ver 5 Aaron shall take of the people 2. Goats for a Sinne-offering Surely you must bring very good reason to frustrat so plaine a speach That is you say to make a Sinne-offering of one of them Nay the very words are take 2. Goats for a Sinne-offering it saith not take 2. Goats that one of them may be a Sinne-offering But this sheweth so much you thinke where the text saith Lottes were cast over the 2 Goates one lot for the Lorde the other for the Scapegoat And Aaron shall offer the Goat on which the Lordes lot shall fall and make him a Sinne-offering These wordes prove not that the Scapegoat was no Sinne-offering at all Vnlesse this were true that no Sinne offering can possibly bee but by killing and slaying and sheadding of bloud Although the “ Heb. 9. Scripture say Without sheadding of bloud is no remission yet it meaneth that Allmost all things are in the Law purged with bloud That is many Offerings and sacrifices are bloudy but not all I take now sacrifice and offering in the largest sense as signifying any consecrated thing given to God to appease him for sinne And such vnbloudy Sinne-offerings very many we shall finde in * Lev. 2.11 13 8 13. Nomb. 1â— 18 11 28 12 14. Moses Law Wherefore the Scapegoat may we yet a Sinne-offering though it were not slaine nor bloudy And his vtter sending away into the vnknown Deserts may answer to the consuming of som other Sacrifices by fire Thus then these wordes of the text which you bring doe not proue the Scapegoate to be no Sinne-offering at all they proue it to be no bloudy Offering and therefore not such but of another kind then the slaine Goat was It might be consecrated and offered to the Lord and vtterly sequestred from men and beare and take away sinne no lesse then the slaine Goat wherein verily consisteth the nature and being of a Sacrifice or true Sinne-offering And in very deede all this the text following expresly avoucheth of the Scape goate ver 10. The Scapegoat shal be presented alive before the Lord to make reconciliation by him to let him go for a Scape-goat Heere is his Consecrating vnto the Lord yea reconciliation also is made by him though he dyed not as the other did Againe more plainly ver 21 22. * And Aaron shall put both his handes vpoÌ„ the head of the live Goat and confesse vpon him all the iniquities of the Children of Israell all their trespasses and all their sinnes putting them vpon the head of the Goat and shall send him away alive into the Wildernes So the Goat shall beare vpon him all their iniquities into the Wildernes being let go thither Can there be any thing in the world more full and strong to prove that the Scapegoat also was a true Sinne-offering or rather a true parte of this wholl and intire Sinne-offering consisting and being compleat in both these Goats the slaine and the Scapegoat togeather For as the slaine Goate so this Scapegoat wee see was aswell Consecrated to the Lord and * heere Offered though not by killing and separated from men ver 10. ver 21 22. have vpon him all the sinnes of the people and caryed them cleane away So wee may reade of other Sacrifices consisting and being compleat wholly of Sacrifices of sundry divers kindes Nomb. 28.3 c. The bloudy Sacrifice had conioyned togeather with it the vnbloudy Sacrifice of the Meat offering and another of the Drinke offering c. Which may very likely represent vnto vs the sundry and divers kindes of Christes meritorious Sufferings in his life time at his Death som bloudy some vnbloudy but all concurring togeather making the full and persit propitiation for al our sinnes And even such a Sacrifice or Sinne-offering it seemeth surely these 2. Goats were Heere then your advisednes may bee noted by all men which doe reprove me for this assertion and that with such violent and vncomly termes Now if it be a Figurative Sinne-offering what signified this Figure Certainly it signified Christ and his taking away of our sinnes by his death Have you any colour of reason to maintaine those wide coniectures of the * Ancients â—yrill Amâ—â—ose Beda that the Scapegoat signified the Reprobat and castaway people or ells cursed Barrabas that scaped death when Iesus was slaine Who but you would defend these palpable mistakinges of those men And why Because they are Ancient Yet see you not the expresse text against theÌ„ Do damned men or did Barrabas reconcile vs to God take away our sinnes as the Scapegoat did typically Nay surely It must needs be then that it signified Christ yea doubtles Christ man For the Godhead could bee no Sinne-offering neither did it make reconciliation for sinne neither did the Deity beare our sinnes vpon himselfe properly all which the Scapegoat * Tipically did Further if it were Christ man it could not be his Body for his body was slaine bloudily the Scapegoat was not slaine For the other Goat a Sacrifice to being slaine this survived and went away into the land of separation It must then be of necessity I thinke the Humane mortall Soule of Christ which the Scapegoate signified which was a true Sinne-offering and made propitiation for vs aswell as the slaine Goat and bare vpon him our sinnes though his Soule dyed not bloudily nor by loosing life and sense as his body and the typicall slaine Goat did You say “ Pap. 235. If this Scapegoat do signifie Christs Soule then it cannot be that Christes Soule Suffered much lesse dyed any death This obiection truly you might haue spared seeing my self * Treat 1 1â— before brought it fully answered it where against you have said never a word The effect whereof is this The escaping of the Goat may lively shew vnto vs that Christs Soule dyed not as the Body dyed by loosing life and sense but surviving went hence into Hades the land of separation the invisible world of the Dead But in that the Scapegoat did beare and sustaine our sinnes and was indeede a Sinne-offering to aswell as the slaine Goat so it may well signifie that Christes Soule properly suffered and sustayned the burden of our sinnes in satisfying for them no lesse then his body which was bloudily slaine therefore As for the Dying of Christs Soule we shall answer you for that in due place heereafter So that Now where you say “ Pag. 234. I am more bold then wise in affirming the Scapegoat to signifie the Soule of Christ Surely then I were like you who affirme as boldly that among the Iewes no Sacrifice at all foreshewed any Suffering of
his Soule And e De incaâ—â— Sacr. cap. 〈◊〉 Hoc in se obtulit Christus quod induit c. Christ offered in sacrifice all that which he assumed that is all every whit that was in him besides his Godhead f Fulgent 〈◊〉 Thrasym 〈◊〉 lib. 3. Fulgentius He shewed in himselfe the sufferinges of a whole man in verity truth quicquid fuit infirmitatis animae sine peccato suscepit pertulit Hee tooke vpon him and suffered whatsoever infirmity may be in the soule without sinne It is not possible that wee our selues should speake a more effectuall sentence for our purpose then this is Say as Fulgentius heere saith and we aske no more All that g Pag. 86. you except that by these Fathers Christe dyed only the death of the flesh is lesse then heere they affirme And we shall answer to that in due place Now marke well how these Fathers do not say that Christ gave his life for a ransom onely as h Pag. 70. â—â— you would construe it but even his very Soule to for our Soules They strive to expresse an exact proportion so far as was possible betwene Christ and vs. First in the parts of Christ who suffered of vs who were saved So that as we are saved not in our bodies only nor only in the externall sensitiue parte of our soules wherein standeth that suffering with and by our bodies but wee are saved redeemed and sanctified in our whole Spirite and Vnderstanding also even so by their verdict Christ suffered for vs not the bodily and outward sufferinges by Sympathy onely but hee suffered for vs even in his Minde also Now this is directly against your present a Assertion which we have in hand 〈◊〉 132.240 â—eere p. 14 Also heere they observe an exact proportion in the Obiects so far as was possible viz in that which he suffered for vs that which we are saved froÌ„ thereby Thus that sorrow of the immortall parte of the Soule not of body only which we are saved from the same he suffered Yea I say all and every whit of those passions sorrowes wherevnto mans nature is b subiect and capable of 〈◊〉 nature we â—â—e subject to â—â—fer in the â—â—nde proâ—erly for sin â—nd not only â—y Sympathy â—rom the Body Cyrill Thesâ—â—ur 10 3 Barnard de â—ass Dom. â—ap 41. Pag. 7. Terâ—ul cout Prax. Amb in Luc. 2. De trist â—olor c. and from which we are saved all the same he tasted and suffered for vs. Thus it is also that Cyrill elswhere saith c Omnia perpessus est vt nos ab omnibus liberaret He suffered all things throughly that hee might acquit vs from all which els we should have suffered And thus I take Barnards meaning to be d He spared not him selfe who knoweth how to spare his Wherevpon you collect well if you meane so e He suffered and indured All to the vttermost with exact obedience and patience To which end Tertullian also f Sic reliquit dum non parcit This was Gods forsaking of him in his passion that in nothing he spared him And thus Ambrose g Minus contulerat mihi nisi meum suscepisset affectum He had don lesse for me if he had not ben altogeather affected as I should haue ben And thus Ierom h â—erom in â—sa 53. h Quod nos pro nostris debebamus sceleribus sustinere ille pro nobis passus est pacificans c That wich we should have borne for our sinnes the same hee suffered for vs. Wherefore by the Fathers Christ suffered exactly i All whatsoever sorrowes paines which we should have suffered All kindes 〈◊〉 both in â—â—irit Body â—ot all partiâ—â—lars in theÌ„ as well Spirituall as Corporall as well in all the powers of the Soule subiect to suffering as in that which suffered allwayes with and from the body Only they except 2. pointes which of simple necessity indeed must be excepted in the Sonne of God Pag. 10. 12. â—3 which before k I have also acknowledged 1. Sinne Pag. 87. and all sinfull concomitantes and consequentes as l you speake And that is it which Cyprian exactly noteth That in him there was m Similitudo paenae non Culpae Cypr. de pass the very like punishmeÌ„t as should have ben in vs only there was no sinne nor fault in him as is in vs. The 2. point excepted is that he suffered not eternally but for a while for he that was life it selfe could not but live againe saith n Cyrill In the place above cited Where he seemeth to acknowledge a kind of death even of the soule from which Christ revived againe But of that in due place heereafter Nowe heere it is manifest that even the Fathers of whom you doe so exceedingly boast are cleane against you and for vs in the 1. and chiefest point of this question shewing that Christ suffered not only bodly or in the soule by Symphaty only but in the Minde also distinctly even as we may suffer in minde distinctly froÌ„ our bodily suffering that is when we suffer somwhat a As I 〈◊〉 Treat 〈◊〉 pag. 4. imediatly from God Yea he suffered say these Fathers all the paines which els we should haue suffered no materiall thing excepted but only sinne otherwise he was spared by dispensation in nothing Against this cleere and plaine sense of the Fathers b Pa. 35â— you take no exception neither can you Thus having hitherto manefestly defended my selfe that I have not abused any way the Fathers nor yet your selfe as you vniustly charge me in c Pa. 22â— your entrance Now I am to doe the like against d Pag. 2â—â— your vnsufficient refusing of my Reasons Where by I hope it shall appeare that you have not weakened any one of them And First you begin with rehearsing my wordes wherein I briefly noted the very Question betweene vs e Treat 〈◊〉 pag. 4. That Christ suffered for vs the Wrath of God Which you f Pag. 24 exclame at without measure as being not the point which you preached against Howbeit I suppose these wordes do rightly and fitly set out the matter both which then you preached which now you write I have g Pag. 8 heere before truly fully declared the whole state of this controversy I trust Yet because we can never opeÌ„ this point to much for many good vses that it hath I will not thinke it tedious nor labour lost ne to rip vp this question a litle againe in this place that so we may proceede with more ease Your generall cariage in your booke declareth that you abuse the Reader exceedingly by the ambiguous and equivocall taking of this terme Gods Wrath as before in the entrance I have shewed It is not I that abuse them as you h Namâ— 243 24â— every where very bitterly and vnreasonably do charge me For according to the most vsuall and
turne them to ioy gladnes though not properly to be glad of them Nay we ought most instantly to pray against them No affliction at all is good in it owne nature and the greatest of all is good to Gods children by his grace So that touching this vse of them therein wee are to reioyce even when we are most bruized and pearced in our soules with the terrours of God Lastlie 〈◊〉 134. l you frame an obiection against your selfe which you neither doe nor can answer Christs soule might feele the tormentes of Hell for the time without any distrust or doubting of his salvation or our redemption You pretend thïs answer The essentiall tormentes of Hell are the absolute losse of Gods kingdom everlastingly and that m Eternall continuance is of the nature and substance of Hell But we shew you â— 53 although the damned are in Hell torments everlastingly and of necessitie so must bee yet eternall continuance in them and to feele them but for a time are indeed but Circumstances not of the essence or nature of Hell tormentes Gods proper and extreame wrath only and his sharpest vengeance for sinne is the essence or nature of Hell paines Which against the Damned indeed is eternall and vnsatisfyable but lighting on Christ it was not eternall because it was satisfyable Wherefore it is plaine that you have answered in effect nothing to your owne obiectioÌ„ Thus far we have gone shewing that we a Pag. 2 neither extende the cause of Christes Agonie to far in affirming it to have com of most bitter extreame Paines which he suffred properly for our sinns neither that we coÌ„tinue it to long in affirming that he felt the same most extreamely on the Crosse Contrariwise that you curtaile it to short when you say it was no more but b Pag. 1 290. Devotion to God and Compassion to men also that Christes Agonie touched him c Pa. 11â— not at all on the Crosse So that d Before 90.91.116 our Maine argument which you would haue frustrated standeth firme and good still that seeing his Agonies Paines and Feares were such so great as the Scripture by the effects signes sheweth that they were both before his death and at his death therefore they were more then meere bodily paines and more then meere bodily death much lesse were his Holy and Religious affections the proper and speciall Cause thereof But of necessity they were the Paines proceeding from the infinit and sharpe Iustice of God which Christ truly suffered in his Spirit and Soule and Body After this a Pag 3â— Touchiâ—â— Death oâ—â—â— Soule you set vehemently against my last argument That Christ suffered in some sorte the death of the Soule First if wee should speake strictly after the maner of Death in the Body then no man is so mad or foolish as to say that any mans Soul can dye at all that is want life and sense as a dead body doth Thus the very damned soules in Hell suffer not death But such a death as immortall soules are subiect subiect vnto is Gods separation froÌ„ them And this is 2. folde The 1. death and the 2. death as the Scripture speaketh The 1. is the separation of them from Gods grace which is in this life by sinne raigning in them The 2. death is Gods leaving them in the feeling of the most sharpe and most vehemeÌ„t paines inflicted by Gods iustice for sinne This last kind of death is so called and named in many places of b Ezek. Gen. 2â— Rom. 6â— 2. Cor. 3.7.5.20 aâ— 1. Ioh. 17. Scripture It hath also a double consideration First ordinarily and commonly it belongeth only to the Damned for their owne inherent sinne where withall are the ordinary Accidents and coÌ„comitants togeather Desperation induration blaspheming vtter darkenes c. with Perpetuitie of punishment and that locally in Hell In this sense the Fathers generally do take it where they deny that Christ suffered the death of the Soule and so likewise do we Secondly The death of the soule or the 2. death may be extraordinarily and singularly considered namely to imply no more but simply the very nature and essense of it 〈◊〉 Death the Soule â—â—rist tasted That is the feeling of most deadly infinit paines inflicted by God himselfe in his proper iustice for sinne all sense also of his comfortable presense being taken away This is a Death to the Soul â—â—g 113. â—ag 135. 6. â—ag 112. 3. as * before we have shewed according to this sense the Scriptures †Fathers before noted may rightly be vnderstood not to deny it in Christ so that this kind of Death in the soule but none other we may safely say Christ did suffer for our sinne imputed to him Moreover let it be observed that if wee had no proofes at all in Scripture for this point yet our Question is fully proved coÌ„firmed notwithstanding by those other sufficient pregnant proofes alleaged iustified before For it is be to noted that no man setteth the questioÌ„ in these termes That Christ dyed in his soule neither doe we at all vse them very much in speaking of this matter We do only when some speciall occasion draweth it from vs neither then do we vtter it in those termes but with vsing some further declaration of our minde The reason of this warynes is because we are not ignorant how ambiguous the phrase is and how apt to be mistaken specially where men list to cavill Also people vntaught and vnsetled in construing the scriptures sense do quickly take offense at thinges which they ought better to digest So that you doe very iniuriously to grate still one this phrase of speach and to straine it to the worst as you do as if by no meanes it could beare any good sense and as if we built our maine Assertion onely heerevpon Which in truth is nothing so The same also doe we affirme touching our vsing in this matter the phrase of Christs suffering Hell paines Both these phrases are but seldome and respectively vsed by vs. Howbeit we deny not but that both these phrases may be well and rightly applyed vnto Christ on occasion â—â—g 16. 52. â—â— 113. as * before is observed may both serve truly and most emphatically to expresse the infinitnes of the paines and sorrowes of his suffering for vs. Yea this very phrase of death extended in Christ further then to his meere bodily dying hath I doubt not expresse ground in the Scripture and therefore may the better be vsed soberly admitted charitably You will aske where is there any scripture Proofes that Christe suffered any other death then that meerely of his body I answer First consider well that to the c Hebr. â—ebr 5.7 Hee offered vp prayers and supplications with strong crying teares to him that was able to save him from death It is not possible that this Death heere should be
same Hee was crucified touching his infirmitie but liveth by the power of God His infirmitie the text heere nameth Metonimically vnderstanding in Christ that in which his infirmities were Now his Soule had infirmities of suffering in it as well as his body Therefore his Soule also is vnderstood heere that it was Crucifyed and dyed that is according to the condicion thereof as likewise his body according to the condicion thereof And thus that which Paul calleth infirmitie Peter calleth Flesh and that which Paul calleth the power of God Peter calleth the Spirit That is his Deitie is set oppositly in both these places to his whole Humanitie even to body and soule Aug. de 4.13 To which purpose that place also to the “ Rom. Romanes doth serve where the like opposition is found as I have shewed betwene the Flesh and the Spirit in Christ that is his Manhood and Godhead Other reasons also * Treat 137 1â— I haue noted serving well heerevnto as the 4 5 and 6. but I omit to rehearse them againe For it seemeth your selfe agreeth with vs in them â—â—g 324. holding a expresly that the Spirit heere in Peter is the Deitie of Christ according to Austins iudgement Now this being granted and acknowledged that the Spirit heere signifieth Christes Godhead how can it be likely but that the other opposit part the Flesh must needes import his whole and intire Manhood Verily thus it seemeth most plaine that Peter heere distributeth the whole and absolute person both God and Man into these Natures the Flesh and the Spirit Wherfore I can not thinke but that the Apostle heere vnderstandeth by Flesh the whole and intire Manhood of Christ even his Soule and his body Now this being so then it followeth by the text that Christ in his Passion was don to death both in Soule Pag. 320. body Heere you obiect that thus I make all the attributes of the body common to the Soule Nay forsooth that I doe not Nor yet this attribute of Dying vnderstood in such sort and maner as the Body properly dyeth that is to become without life and sense I ascribe Death to both but yet according to the divers condicion and state of both â—reat 1. Pâ—g 78. And thus you might vnderstand my b meaning to be where I say it is absurd false that Christ was made aliue in his Humane Soule that is it neither lost nor recovered life and sense so as his body did â—â—â—e before 〈◊〉 135 136 Howbeit as Death is oftentymes attributed to mens soules in the c Scripture that is the feeling of the extreame wrath of God and the punishment for sinne so d I make Death commoÌ„ both to Christes Soule and body â—â—eat 1. â—â—g 79. even to his whole and intire humane Nature Which if you do not acknowledge the shame of ab surditirie and coÌ„trarietie which in your fancy e you accuse me of that Christes Soule dyed and dyed not â—â—g 322. â—â—3 will sit neerer to you theÌ„ to me Also in such a sense I deny not but Christ may be said that he was quickened in the Spirit that is refreshed and comforted againe in his Soule and restored from that bottomles gulfe of sorrowes to the lively feeling of heavenly ioyes and glory which for a season he had no sense of at all Howbeit though this sense bee a true quickening in his Soule yet I deny that heere in this place of Peter it can be translated quickened in the Spirit meaning the Soule because Spirit heere in this opposition is set indeed for the Deitie of Christ â—â—â—d you with â—â—â—stin doe â—â—sent * as before I have shewed Thus the matter I hope is cleere to reasonable men that Christes Soule even according to the Scripture phrase may be said in some sorte to have tasted and suffered Death that is the extreamest feelings of Gods wrath for sinne and the most vehement paines of the damned though not as the damned doe in respect of the Accidents and concomitants of their ordinary damnation but in a singular maner and extraordinarie way as became the sonne of God and a sinles man yet a very maÌ„ being our Redeemer Now besides the matter you “ Pag. 3 gird at me in divers places as where I say The Death of the Soule is such Paines and sufferings of Gods wrath as allwayes accompanie them that are separated from the grace and love of God Forfooth it is true they are alwayes wicked whom these Paines doe accompanie ordinarily They came vpon Christ extraordinarilie as in a Treat â— pag. 77. this place I expresly noted That was therfore my meaning here if you would haue seene it In another place also b Pag. 33. you know that I say Hell as I take it that is such paines of Gods wrath is * Treat 1 pag. 80. sometime found in this life Thus then you might haue vnderstood my former wordes and not that the tormentes of Hell doe alwayes accompanie the wicked in this life I pray conceave not my meaning against my expresse wordes Againe c Pag 31â— you pretende to haue much against me where I say The feeling of the sorrowes of Gods wrath due to sinne in a broken and contrite heart is indeed the only true and perfitly accepted sacrifice to God True so I said and againe I say it What see you amisse in it Then vnhappy men are the godly which are at any time free from the paines of the damned To what purpose is this I speake of Christs Sacrifice I pray is any other Sacrifice perfitly accepted or a Sacrifice at all but Secondarily that is in and by Christes Sacrifice They are not His Sacrifice then is the onely true Sacrifice and perfitly accepted to God All others are imperfit and accepted not in them selues but only in and by Christ Thus your triumphes before the victorie come to nothing but blastes of vanitie But Augustin †Pag. 32 doth flatly deny that this text can be thus vnderstood or that Christes Soule might dy Austin d Epist 9â— denyeth that Christ suffied any paines of damnation locally in Hell after his death as it seemeth some helde about his time whoÌ„ here he laboureth to confute So that he meaneth to reprove onely the e See besâ—â—â— pag 139 1st sense of the Death of the Soule in him viz. that he suffred it not Ordinarily after the maner of other men nor any way locally Hâ— hath no nâ—cessarie cause to speak of the 2. sense thereof how the Soule may be said to suffer death Extraordinarily for sinne imputed only neither doeth he speake against that in Christ Nay according to Austins owne Definition of the Soules Dying it will easily appeare that Christes Soule may be said to have suffered some kinde of Death de verh 〈◊〉 Ser â—0 〈◊〉 Trin. 4. Saith he a Moritur anima si recedit Deus and b Mors est spiritûs deseri Ã
the Soule of Christ which you can never prove Howbeit this I acknowledge indeed that the Iewish Figures though they be applyable vnto Christ the substance of those shaddowes yet wee ought to apply them in the particulars soberly and warily and not without some plaine proportion of the Figure with the thing Figured Wherefore my meaning is none other in these Iewish figures which the Scripture doth not any where expresly interpret but to shew what I thinke to be indeed most probable and likely knowing that yet som such matter as we aime at they do signifie without question And this is sufficient to deny your Assertion which against our saying that the sufferings of Christes Soule may be signified by the Scapegoat is but meerely coniecturall and presumed The very like are * your 3. reasons brought to shew that the Holocaust cannot signifie the sufferingâ—s of whole Christe Pag. 236. and therefore not of his Soule any way Lev. 1. 6. Your former reason is because the Holocaust was 1. slaine and after burnt for then if the burning signifieth Christs paines and sufferings Christ must seeme to suffer after his death But this is a weake inference Is there any Figure or similitude concurring in all points and circumstances with the thing signified Sure there is no man of knowledge so vnexpert or so vnreasonable as to require it Many times where they agree only but in one principall respect that sufficeth to make the similitude Againe many similitudes and Figures there are in the olde Law having as great disparagemeÌ„t to the things signified by them as this in the Holocaust which you talke of The Bodies of beasts first slaine Lev. 4.11 2. 16 27 Heb 13.11.12 ver 13. Lev. 1.9 were after caryed out of the Host Now these signified Christs going out of Jerusalem * to be slaine but being yet alive Againe the beasts carying out by others after they were slaine is likened to our voluntary and free leaving of the world in this life Lastly the * burning of the beastes after they were dead was a sacrifice of a sweet favour vnto God Which in truth is Christs very death Fphe 5.2 and nothing don by him afterward whereby Gods anger is fully pacified towarde vs. Wherefore your first exception is very vaine The 2. is like to it The Holocaust was consumed in one the same sire But Christ was tormented wholly not with one kind of suffering as we maintaine but with 2. kindes that is with bodyly spirituall sorrowes First I say this also if it were true is as weake an exception as the former and altogeather like it See Though Christ indeed suffered divers and sundry kindes of sorrowes yea even of those which were meerely outward and bodily Even that meerely in the Soule viz. when it grew vehement as also of those that were meerely Spirituall and inward yet we plainely affirme that one the same torment afflicted his whole manhood by sympathy For his Soule also was sore grieved I doubt not even with his proper Bodily torments likewise his Body when his trickling sweat was clots of bloud was crushed and broken vnspekeably with his inward and spirituall sorrowes though his flesh then felt outwardly no paine So your 2. exception is also nothing The 3. is no better where you argue from a Treaâ— pag. 1â— my words that the Bodyes of beastes could not prefigure the immortall reasonable Soule of Christ. And it is like to that which b pag. â— afterward you cite from my words about the Sacraments Earthly Elements cannot set out spirituall and invisible effectes in Christ. Hence you thinke that I cannot defend that the firy consuming of the Holocaust may signifie the sorrows both of the Soule and Body of Christ You shall see that I can full easily and without any trisling It is evident that I meane in those former places that bodily thinges generally and for the most part doe-represent the meere bodily externall parts of Christes sufferings but not alwayes and altogeather Which you might haue easily seene by my answere to the c Treaâ— pag. â— Assumption and by the instances which there I give to this purpose Againe the very instances which I give viz the Scapegoat the Holocaust afterward the bread broken in the communion these I say doe not in that respect as they are Bodily things represent the Soule of Christ or any matter pertayning to it But the peculiar vsage and maner of action about them doth lively represent the suffering of his soule and not of his body only As not the Goat representeth Christes soule vnles only in respect of the escaping of it wheÌ„ the other Goat dyed also in respect of the sustayning and bearing vpon himself of our sinnes And not the body of the Holocaust but the vtter consuming by fire of the whole signifieth the sufferings of whole Christ Lastly the bread may signifie the whole Christ who is the intire and perfit bread of life but the Breaking thereof into pieces representeth more lively the breaking crushing in pieces as it were of the soul rather theÌ„ of the body Which was pierced through but was not in case of being broken in pieces so likely as the Soul was Yet you will say the Hol may signifie that whole Christe suffered but some bodily afflictions the Soul feeling the griefs paines of the Body For how wil it follow that the proper and immediat sufferings of Christs Soule might be signified by the Holocaust Surely according to the proportion of the Holocaust so whole Christ then his very Soule chiefly was as it were chopt or broken into pieces and as it were quite consumed and swallowed vp in his firy sorrowes onely the assistance of his Godhead sustained his Soule and withall his body or els he could not have borne it â—reat 1. â—ag â—8 as a I noted M. Whitakers to have truly taught This can not bee but the Soules peculiar suffering of Gods very wrath far beyond all bodily sufferings and yet not those paines of Hell â—ag 8. c. as b you grosly vtter it Your other senses that you give heereof the 1. hindreth not mine â—ag 237. that is c the Acceptation of Christes death The 2. that is Christs fleshes incorruption after death is very hard and far fetcht And Sacrifices had their respect to Christes death not to any thing further or afterwards As for another sense out of Austin that it should signifie our perfection and burning charity it cannot be true for the Holocaust-sacrifice out of question primarily signified the person of Christ not ours See it is vntrue that any man besides Christ alone is or can bee perfect in this life that he should bee wholly consumed with Heavenly love according to the proportion of the consuming of the Holocaust Also you both heere do seeme double vnderstanding by the Holocaust both incorruption after death a perfect
sunder â—â—g 268. Austin on whom d you triumph is stretched beyond his meaning He dealeth against a Manichee who denyed that Christ had true Humane flesh 〈◊〉 likewise â—â—l the rest â—â—ur Fathers â—â—ken for â—ost part 〈◊〉 sayings â—â—ther aâ—â— the Maâ—â—es or the â—â—s c. 〈◊〉 strove â—bout our â—â—â—ion which yet notwithstanding is manefest because Christ truly dyed Now he proveth that Christ truly dyed because the Apostle saith He was made a Curse for vs in that he hanged on the tree And where it is said Cursed is every one that hangeth on the tree this was saith he to shew that Christ was not exempted but was like other men truly accursed and truly dead So that his meaning is not to shew that Christes whole Curse and his bodily death were iust all one without any differeÌ„ce which you vrge him for nay he hath no such meaning Only he proveth by this that he being made truly a Curse did also truly Dy which the Manichee denyed For in saying Christ was dead accursed for vs is the same he meaneth it is the same for his purpose the one very well proveth the other but not that they were simply all one The rest of e your Fathers are alltogeather idly cited 〈◊〉 95. no man denyeth that which they say Where f you mislike me for saying 〈◊〉 26â— â—â—â—at 1. 〈◊〉 38. g The Curse laid vpon Christ was not onely the ignominie of his death the shame of the world you have nothing against it but much for it Austin whom you boast of is against you in this saying a Pag. â—â— Christ heere tooke on him our punishment without sinne But our punishment which is without sinne doubtles was a great deale more then only the dishonour and shame of the world Austin therefore is manifestly against you in this yea also b Pag. 2 your owne selfe is in saying likewise Austin and Chrysostome and c Pag. 9 other doe say that Christ suffered this ignominie but that this was all or the whole Curse which hee suffered I see none that affirmeth Your many Scriptures in d Pag. 2 this place what doe they Forsooth they prove that it is light at Mid-day For who ever made quaestion but that shame and reproch in their simple Nature were a parte of the true Curse of God Yet all this sheweth not that Shame was the whole Curse which Christ indured e Pag. 2â— You mislike that f Treat pag. 45. I said Christes dying simply g That is Christ haâ—ed simply which in 〈◊〉 he did noâ— as the godly dy may in no sort be called a Curse or Accursed Because as I affirme also h Pag. 44. Death to the godly is no Curse properly nor punishment of sinne but a benefit and advantage Nay therefore Christes Death was properly a Curse because his Death was i As befoâ—â— Pag. 11. 49 59 5 not like theirs You say I am too young a Doctor to controll St Austin herein And I say you are a Doctor not old enough to prove Austin k Your self teth him 〈◊〉 me herein 49. Corp mors bâ—â— bona mâ—â— mala contrary to me in this point Death in it owne nature and in the originall propertie of it is a part of the Curse and so Christ suffered it but in the Godly it is not properly a Curse nor the proper punishment or revenge of sinne which Christ once alone hath wholely sustayned and cleane freed vs of for ever This l Pag. 90. your selfe as well as m Pag. 43 I can tell saying The vengeance of the Lawe once executed on our Surety can no more in Gods iustice be executed on vs. And this our n Nowell techis Hâ—â— suffered â—â—der c. publike doctrine in England set forth by Masster Nowell confirmeth By Christes death it is come to passe that to the faith full Death is now not a Destruction but as it were a removing and changing of life and a very short and sure passage to heaven Who also in o His she Catechisâ—â— An. 157 another place expresseth it thus Death of the body which without Christ was the gate to Hell is nowe by Christ made to all that beleeve in him the gate and passage to Heaven So that death which before was a Punishment is now by Christ become a vantage Wherein you are notably contradicted who doe call p Pag. 15â— 216. Death in the godly the gate of Hell a strange and most vntrue translation Againe you are q Pag. 268 269. gainsaide in this place where you reprove me for affirming that Death to the godly and faithfull is a benefitt and advantage Then you say If I will reason what death is in it selfe I must resolve it to be a part of Gods Curse Which is no answer For our quaestion is not what death is in it selfe Who ever denied it to be in it selfe as you say a part of Gods Curse for sinne but my expresse wordes are Death to the godly is no Curse properly but a vantage Pag. 270. Where a you adde If Death were a gaine to the godly as I would have it by what meanes I pray you came it so to be If you know not why did you not marke better the publike Catechisme before rehearsed where all England is taught that it came by meanes of the death and resurrection of Christ You say Jf by the resurrection of Christ conquering Death and changing the nature of it then till Christ was rison Death was a punishment to the faithfull themselves I wonder what meaning there is in this argument As well you may say There were none saved til Christ was risen For salvation also and forgivenes of sinnes to all men came only by the death and resurrection of Iesus Christ So that thus till Christ came in the flesh none of the holy Patriarkes Abraham David and the rest obtayned eternall life And what became of them then But I am perswaded that Abraham David and all the Prophetes dying before Christ was exhibited in the flesh yet by their faith in Gods sure ordinance and promise they had and enioyed Christ truely incarnat slaine and risen againe and this to them was as effectuall then as it is now to vs since the actual performance of these things Whereby even as we by faith so they by the same faith differing onely in the circumstance of time were truely and throughly saved Likewise to the faithfull then by the efficacie of their holy faith Death was properly no punishment but a gaine even as to vs nowe it is Further b you except against me touching innocentes and Martyrs executions Pag. 175. who c I say are most blessed Treat 1. Pag. 38. You reply Their Martyrdomes are shamefull deaths and that is a kinde of Corporall Curse A kinde of Curse Who denyeth that We know all shame affliction to all men is a kinde of Curse
experience of them This same also sundry of the Fathers avouch with vs most fully and even those which your selfe brings for a your selfe Pag. 25. Cyrills wordes before touched are most large Cyrill Theâ—â—ur 10.3 Omnia Christus perpessus est vt nos ab omnibus liberaret Christ throughly suffered all such passions which men doe suffer that he might deliver vs from all Humane â—ature All the passions of †fleshe were stirred in Christ yet without sinne and so that vnles he had dyed we had not bene delivered from death vnles he had feared and sorrowed we had not ben quitt from feare and sorrowe Heere he saith all our passions were stirred in Christes humane nature even so farre as we are cured and so farre as might bee without sinne in him Then I hope by Cyrills iudgement the sense of the true curse and proper wrath of God for sinne was in Christes Soule so faire as it might be painfull and not sinfull seeing Men are subiect to this suffering as the most sharpest among others Lastly by Cyrill here we see that vnles Christ had felt the same suffrings which we feele and are cured of we had not bene delivered of them This also I am sure fitteth not your opinion That one drop of Christes bloud was sufficient for our whole redemption Which was one of your principles in your preaching but in your book you skip it cleane I know not how â—ag 25. 26. Next we may see that c your place of d Ambrosâ— is also fully to the same effect Luc. de â—â—tic dol â—â— A litle after his e former words he saith The ioy of the eternall Godhead being parted away from him Christ was affected with the redioâ—snes of my infirmity â—â—fore pa. 48 He tooke vpon him my sorrow that he might give mee his ioy and he abased himselfe to the sorrow of death in our manner that by the same meanes in him he might bring vs to life He ought therfore to take sorrow that he might overcome sorrow and not exempt himselfe from it that we might learne in Christ to ouercom the sorrow of death approching Wherefore Christ exempted himselfe from nothing in his Passion that we haue experience of as touching Paines and sorrowes And by the same sufferings in him selfe for vs he healeth vs wherevnto we are subiect by reason of sinne So that thus in his agonie hee wrought with a deepe effect that because in his flesh hee killed our sinnes he might also with the sorrow of his Soul extinguish the sorrow of our Soules To this very purpose also a Pag. 47 4â— Naâ—â—anz Fulgent Barnard Tertull. Ierom. many others before rehearsed do affirme most fully Neither is this taking of their sentences any whit to abuse the Fathers which you b Pag. 86. are afraid of You greatly abuse them which take them otherwise namely as if they meant that by the flesh and bloudshed of Christ meerely alone without the merit of his Soules and Mindes proper suffering our whole Ransom were paid As for our comparing the paines of Christs suffering with the paines even of the Reprobats in this life I see not that you nor any man living can finde fault therewith onely set aside their sinfull suffering which alwayes I testifie that Christ was most free from Yea I doubt not but we may compare Christes sufferings in his Agonies touching vehemency of paines even with those of the Damned in hell What the oâ— is betweenâ— Christes Suâ—fering 〈◊〉 Damned Only I conceave betweene Christs and theirs this odds 1 They suffer sinfully 2 Perpetually 3 Locally in Hell All which being excepted otherwise Christ suffered altogither as bitterly as sharpely yea I may say in nature the very same as the Damned doe which therefore may well be called the paines of Hell although yet Hell indeed doeth differ in some great and waighty circumstances as is aforesaid If you say the extreamest paines of punishment caÌ„not be where sinne is not That is true neither in deed can the least paines be where there is no sinne and that no more in the Body then in the Soule though this please not you Marke what I say The extreamest paines of al may as possibly be inflicted where no sinne is as the very least that as well in the Spirit as in the Body But in trueth neither the one nor the other is possible Neither the greatest nor the least paines of Gods proper vengeance for sinne can be inflicted or suffered at all in Soule or in Body but only where sinne is That is to say either imputed or inhaerent Ordinarily the Reprobat are thus punished where sinne is inhaerent Extraordinarily and singularly by Gods owne speciall ordinance Christ was even thus punished yet where sin was but imputed And thus therefore Christes Soule for meere paine might suffer the extreamest spiritual punishments altogeather as well as his body might suffer any at all without inhaerent sinne But you graunt his body suffered truely punishments for sinne Therefore his soule might suffer also even those of the extreamest degree Your “ See beâ—â—â— pag. 14. selfe also granteth that Christ both might and did suffer the extreamest paines that might bee without his owne sinne But it was possible for him to conceave and feele in his a minde farre greater sorrowes and paines for our sinne from Gods wrath â—at ◠〈◊〉 26. then hee could feele meerely in his body outwardly And the greatest was no more sinne then the least though both were properly for sin Therefore by your own grant Christ might and did feele and indure the greatest sorrowes of the minde and soule as well as the lesser in the body being all the very effectes of the wrath of God against sinne â—ag 102. b You bring a reason against this that God spiritually punisheth no man but for his own vncleannes which is a thing meerely vntrue For though no other man was ever punished without his owne vncleannes neither spiritually nor corporally yet Christ our Saviour was who in this case was not in the ordinarie state of men But I pray shewe me this mysterie how it is that God caÌ„not punish Spiritually where there is no inhaerent sinne but can and may Corporally where there is none All the rest of your assertions c heere are altogeather of this sute â—a 101 102 â—03 105. â—66 94. By this one reason I weakened all yours but you could passe that by To this efâ—â—ct Treat 1 â—ag 41 43. answering vnto it not a word Viz d If Christes body hanging on the Crosse and held by Death in the grave was punished by God where yet he found no sinne and which he still intierly loved and was never separated froÌ„ then so hee might did punish properly his Soule also yet never divide his Godhead nor his love from it But thus he did to his body therefore even so hee might doe and did to his
to Christ with all the godly in like cases Wherfore Austins sentence will not helpe you heere Pag. 25. m that Christ was troubled not by infirmitie but by his owne power For he meaneth not only by infirmitie but also by his owne will and power or els you coÌ„fute him yourselfe Neither ther is this any reproch to Christ as n Pag. â— you most iniustly insinuat But as it was glorious to him so to debase his Maiestie for our sakes to take our true and perfit Nature yea to bee humbled therein to the most shamefull death of the Crosse so was it also glorious to him to take all the true weaknesses of our nature togeather and so it was his singular good-will towards vs to become throughly like vs and feelingly subiect to all our Calamities paines and miseries to heale vs of them Only in him the guilt and corruption of sinne it selfe was excepted Faine you would o Pag. 2â— wipe away that ArgumeÌ„t of ours which sticketh neerer to you the you will seeme In Malefactors there is a quiet and contented suffering of most exquisit and extraordinary torments oftentimes The couâ—â— and stâ—â—â— of Maâ—â—ctours â—â—â—ments which they indure only by a naturall strength and courage of minde Howe much more likely is it then that Christ the very rock of all strength and fountaine of patience would not thus seeme affrighted and astonished and so wofully behaving him selfe for his meere bodily death and that before it came vnto him All your answer is that this is no fit comparison for the Sonne of God for they are desperate not having any feare or care of God till they feele the force of his wrath in Hell fyre What an answer is this They have no feare nor care of God What then Yet naturally they have feare and care of most bitter paines and namely then when they feele them If you say before they feele them they are so desperate and so hardened by Satan that they care not for any tormentes that in deed is commonly true But what will you or can you alleage to hinder their full and most dreadfull sense of them when they are in them Satan wisheth them not so much good as to benumme them now in their senses so that the cruell paines of death should not trouble them in the time of their death which hee would rather make more fearfull and intollerable vnto them Let them be then in their life time as desperat as they will yet in death and in the middest of most horrible tortures which oftentimes very quietly they indure surely they cannot choose but feele as liuely and as perfitely as other men doe Only it is a naturall boldnes and strength of minde in it selfe no discommendable propertie that sustayneth them in such extreme paines One instance for all may serve in this kinde even that wretched Murderer of the Prince of Orange in Netherland What strange quietnes did he shew in suffering most wonderfull and rare tormentes vntill death Nowe to make our Saviour Christ lesse able or willing to suffer quietly outward tormentes no greater then that wretch and many other such have suffered I suppose is a bad indeavour And it is no vnfit matter for you to thinke more vpon before you skip it over with silence We compare not the Sonne of God with them but are sure that his Humane nature had beyond all comparison more commendable courage boldnes strength of minde patience and contentment even in the middest of his extreamest paines were they but meere bodily then such caytifs had or possibly could seeme to have This that I say pertaineth alike to the Theeves that were Crucified with Christ Of whom the H. Ghost saith a They were togeather in one and the same Condemnation with Christ 〈◊〉 23.40 That is they suffered from men all one and the like tormentes of death adiudged them by the Magistrate except happily Christ suffered lesse then they because they indured them longer then hee did Yet we finde in none of them any such piteous and strange Complaintes and Cryes and Teares as we finde in Christ But to leave these and to come to the patience of Martyrs in their sufferings That also is admirable what ioy what peace what triumph they shew yea how they sing in the middest of frying flames in their rosting on gridirons in their fleaing off their skinnes and tearing of their fleshe by piece-meales with a thousande other of most strange and butcherly torments no lesse if no greater in outward shewe then the sufferings of our Saviour Christ To this you answer If death be not fearfull to the Servants of Christ they are the more bound to their Lord and Maister Who knoweth not that But what answer is this to our argument And you will also give a reason of your saying Because he was the first that by death disarmed death and severed Death and Hell He was surely both the first and the last both α and ω. For he â—â—ly and none with him nor before nor since him conquered Death and Hell Yet what is this to our Reason The effect that Christ wrought is not our quaestion â—he matter 〈◊〉 or Obâ—â—â— and the â—â—iect of his â—â—ffering are 〈◊〉 question but the maner and kinde of suffering whereby hee wrought it You tell vs of the effect which he perfourmed which we gladly acknowledge viz. that Christ did this in deed by his death he made our death since to be no Cursed death but a blessed death But how did he this by suffering nothing but his meere bodily death only or also a Religious feare of Hell All which other godly men doe also suffer and feele which they take passing ioyfully and quietly But thus Christ did not seeme to doe neyther indeed did he in his Agonie Or did Christ suffer some greater sorrow You say The death which Christ suffered when it approched came fast clasped with Hell What meane you by that meane you that Death and Hell both alike came iointly vpon Christ and that both iointly were ordayned of God to seaze vpon him Then it is thesame that wee affirme Otherwise how came they clasped togeather against him By breaking the knot betwixt Death and Hell he could not be so wofully affected and afflicted above measure as he was if he did not suffer by them somewhat extraordinarily Vnto this you have nothing to answer Only you say he severed them and none ells but only the Sonne of God could dissolve them Which we deny not Neither can we see how Death by Gods ordinance might seaze vpon Christ and not the paines of Hel seeing neither of them is in themselves sin but both alike are the due vengeance of sinne which he was ordayned to suffer so far as was possible Why then did he suffer the one and not touch the other Neither yet do you shew that which you take in hand heere how bodily death is contemptible to the Godly which
manhood also after so low humiliation Finally it was his own most free and fore determined will Would hee then so mournfully grieve and complaine thereat It hath no reason nor likelyhood in it Iohn 1â—â— Lazarus when he was returned from the ioyes of heaven to take againe his rotten carcase ofter it stanke having lyen 4. dayes dead in the grave yet he grieved not at it neither ought he so to have don Much lesse ought Christ so to grieve and mourne for a lesser want and for a shorter season as we may thinke then that was to Lazarus But this matter is not worth the speaking of “ See bâ— to this puâ— pag. 10â— any further Neither doe your Fathers prove any such improbable yea vnlawfull mourning complayning in Christ If they prove any thing towardes your meaning it is this that he complayned because of his bodily dying Howbeit they say not that he thus complayned only and meerely for that neither I thinke will you plainly hold this neither doe wee deny the other The truth is they meane he suffered in his whole Humane nature How the â—â—thers are 〈◊〉 taken namely that he suffered not as God They strove heere with Haeretikes whose controversies were far from this our question f Hilar. 〈◊〉 Trin li. 〈◊〉 Hilary and g Epiph. 〈◊〉 Arioma 〈◊〉 Epiphanius wrot against Arius to prove that Christ in this complaint shewed rightly a humane infirmity and that this was not the voice of a Deity inferiour to the Father as Arius blasphemed These Fathers then had no purpose heere to exclude the sufferings of Christes Soule but only to deny that his Godhead suffered complayned as being left to punishment by his Father when the sorrowes of death began to prevayle against him The very same doth †In Maâ—â— can 33. 〈◊〉 Hilary also where he saith that this in Christ was Corporis vox the outcry of his body He plainly meaneth it of his whole manhood the opposition being betweene it and his Godhead â—reat 1. â—â—g 9. as the Scripture †often doth And where he saith he was morte peragendus to be coÌ„summated by death he meaneth that death ended all his suffering not that hee suffered nothing els but meerely death And if their words do any where come neere to our question â—ertul cont â—â—ax â—â—ila in Mat. â—â—au 33. as it is very likely that h Tertulian and the one place of i Hilary doth then surely they are plainly for vs and against you Tertullian pointeth in this place at certaine Haeresies maintained in his time wherwth it seemeth Praxeas was infected 1 That the Father suffered aswell as the Sonne when Christ suffered 2 That the Deity suffered 3 That Christ was no true nor perfit man All these pointes Tertullian overthroweth heere Quid de isto quaeris c. What inquire you of Christ You heere him crying out in his Passion My God my God why hast thou forsaken me The Sonne therefore suffered being forsaken of his Father but this is meant of the Flesh and of the Soule that is of the Man not of the Word nor of the Spirit Heere it is plaine that Tertullian sheweth besides the rest this point exactly that Christ was a very man in that he had a proper Body and a Soule and that this his suffering on the Crosse was in both these partes and so in his whole intire manhood Also that he suffered in both these parts even froÌ„ his Father â—eere pag. 63. â—at 1. pa 4 But he could not suffer in his Soule froÌ„ †God if he felt only and meerely but a bodily death as you hold And to suffer the stroke of Gods hand in his Soule as the proper vengeance of sin is farre more then to feele in Soule by sympathy only the bodies smart Neither had Tertull. overthroweÌ„ but confirmed that Haeresie of Christs being no true natural man if he had said that in this case he suffered in Soule only by symphathy with and from the Body But this is absurd to thinke in Tertullian Therefore in this place he is flatly against you And this DerelictioÌ„ of his Father which he speaketh of is Death indeed to the Sonne But what death Forsooth more then the separation of the Soule and Body â—at Death â—â—e Soule in â—ist wee â—â—ne Even the seperation of the Deity from the whole manhood which is the death of the Soule I speake heere nothing but the Fathers words yea the Scriptures Your owne place of Epiphanius saith that nowe his Deity departed from his manhood So saith your owne Hilary also Corporis vox contestata recedentis a se Dei dissidium So saith Ambrose Clamavit Homo Divinitatis separatione moriturus The man Christ did cry being about to dy by the separation of his Godhead Againe Sequestrata delectatione Divinitatis aternae taedio meae infirmitatis afficitur The ioy of his eternall Godhead being parted away hee was afflicted with the tediousnis of my infirmitie Heere the Fathers doe shewe in deed that Christ dyed but more then a meere bodily death even the death of the Soule also For what is the Separation of the Deitie from his Soule els but the death of the Soule Howbeit note I pray that neither the Fathers nor I do meane any Separating 1 of the vnion of a The Dâ—â— Humâ—â— both natures in Christ nor the Separating 2 of any Holynes or habituall grace of God from his Soule 3 nor the Separating of Gods love from him See befoâ—â— pag. 10â— but the SeparatioÌ„ of all comfortable feeling assistance of the Godhead in that he felt not any supporting of his Soule and Body now pierced thorow with the Paines which he felt inflicted by God This SeparatioÌ„ is meant and it b Thougâ— haps thâ— ther 's dâ— this phâ—â— rarely may be called the Death of the Soule For as it is c Psal â—â— life to the Soule to feele and to enioy the glorie of God So it is death to feele the want and absence thereof vtterly and the rather being also then overwhelmed with incomparable paines That heavenly life Christ tasted a litle while in his TransfiguratioÌ„ this Hellish Death he felt besides his bodily death vpon the Crosse And thus Tertull. meaneth heere that not Christs bodily death only made him now thus to cry out but that death also which was the Separation of his Godhead from both his body Soule which is the death of the Soule And so he saith true the Dereliction of the Father is Death to the Sonne Your d Pag. â—â—â— 4. Exposition for any thing I see may be granted for it seemeth to bee the same in effect that wee holde Your place of Cyrill seemeth also to concurre that Christes words of complaint were the removing of the dereliction which had fallen on vs. Was it removed from vs then surely it was laid vpon some body els Now that must needes be vpon
his meere bodily Death which he so wofully and impotently feared as I haue before sufficiently coÌ„firmed Therefore it was the death of the soule the 2. Death which heere is vnderstood to have thus mightily afflicted Christ Which also your own selfe do d Pag. â—â— fully grant and affirme with me Yea you affirme further then we doe or then the truth is or possibly can be You say Christ heere thus feared Eternall death and Everlasting damnation What a speach is this Christ could not possibly feare in such wofull maner that which he perfitly knew should never come neere him But he perfitly knew that eternall Death and the Cup of Gods everlasting malediction should never touch him He knew and saw that this by Gods almighty and vnchangeable Decree was set further from him then the East is from the West yea then Hell is from HeaveÌ„ Therefore he could not by any meanes possibly feare eternall death nor pray in such sort against it Againe that which he feared and so pitifully prayed against was that which he knew was by God e Iohn 12 ordayned for him Yea Feare alwayes is of that which is to come But Eternall death was not by God ordayned for him that was “ Which Christ 〈◊〉 right wâ— not to come vnto him Therfore it was not Eternall death which he so feared Finally when in the Garden he prayed against that Cup which he feared that it might passe from him there he yeeldeth and submitteth himselfe presently to the vndergoing of it But it were I know not what to say that Christ did ever yeeld and submit himselfe to vndergo Eternall death or to tast the Cup of Gods everlasting malediction Therefore it was not this that he feared heere prayed against And yet it was I grant the Death of the Soule or the 2. Death that is simply the essense thereof Gods withdrawing himselfe from him in the Paines and torments thereof This onely it was He suffer that deatâ— which he feared not the eternity thereof nor sinfull concomitants which he thus feared And this for the infinitnes of it naturally he could not but feare yea and that so extreamely also he feared f â—ôzein for him selfe as knowing it to be ordayned for him So that hence it followeth invincibly that Christ in deed suffered sith he thus feared more then the meere bodily Death even the Death of the soule For he could not I say thus * Much yeeld to iâ— he did sâ—â—ing Thy â—â—â—don feare but he must needs know that it was to come or might com vnto him â—wed furâ—â— before 131.132 if he but knew that it might come then it * certainly did come vnto him at one time or other in his Passion before heâ— left the world See to the Hebr. g Christ abolished through death him that had the power of death that is the Divell and so delivered all them which for feare of death were all their life time subiect to bondage â—â—b 2.14 Heere I see no reason in the world but that the Apostle by â—his often repeating of death and by mutuall referring of it in one place as it were to the other doth vnderstand signifie one and the same death altogeather But it is the death of the Soule which the Divell hath the power and execution of also the death of the soule chiefly sinful men were held in feare of all their life long It followeth then I suppose that even through this death of the Soule Christ abolished the Divell and deliveted his children Specially seeing there is no enormity nor impossibilitie heerein Against this you haue no reason at all but wordes and wrestings and vaine ostentation of Fathers none of them all denying our sense Third it seemeth also that Peter teacheth this same Pet. 3.18 saying k Christ in his suffering was don to death in the Flesh but made alive by the Spirit Where Death may be very well referred both to the Soule and Body of Christ Because the text heere speaketh as I iudge of the whole and entire sufferings of Christ And it is manifest by that before that Christ did suffer not in his body only but properly and immediatly also in his Soule we haue seene also that the * phrase of Death 〈◊〉 135.136 or Dying may in a good sense be applyed even to Christes Soule Againe this word Flesh it seemeth can not heere in this place be vnderstood to signifie onely the Body of Christ but even both partes of his Humane nature thar is the reasonable Soule and the body My reason is because wheresoever in scripture the Flesh and the Spirit are noted oppositly togeather in Christ â—â—m 1.3 4. â—im 3.16 â—oh 4.2 〈◊〉 1.14 â—or 5.7 â—4 1.4.1 â—â—g 320. there the i Flesh signifieth alwayes his whole Humanity even both partes thereof the Soule also not the Body only the Spirit signifieth his Deity or Divine power Now what have you against this Nothing of waight but floutes and mockes that k this observation is made out of the hinder partâ— of my head c. But what pretend you against it Some Scripture palpably abused First Mathew where Christ speaketh of his Disciples that their Spirit their inward regenerat man was ready to watch â—ath 26. but their Flesh their corrupt nature was weak sluggish What is this to Christes Flesh and Spirit Thinke you that Christs Soule was willing to suffer as God had appointed but that his Flesh resisted Verily so you seeme heere to vnderstand An vntrâ—â— conceit and it is as likely as your applying of Flesh and Spirit to Christ in your pag. 104. Then a Luk. 2. Luke where both Spirit and Flesh are not intended of Christ as our observation before requireth but only the Flesh Then the Romanes where I affirme that b Rom. Flesh signifieth the whole Manhood of Christ according to the which he came from David even as well as SalomoÌ„ or Nathan did who were Davids sonnes in their entire and perfit nature So likewise Christe was kinne to the Iewes according to his c Rom. 9 whole Humanitie aswel as d ver 3. Paul was And heere Paul meaneth him selfe to be kinne to them according to Nature wholly that only by Regeneration in the Gospell he was differing from them Now Nature opposed to Grace and regeneration hath reference both to Soule and Body in a man Howsoever the Soule cometh in Generation that is not heere considered neither is it necessarily to the purpose Which difficulty also your selfe haue vtterly * Pag. 2â— renouÌ„ced before to make it any argument for you in this matter Thus yet the Flesh and the Spirit thus opposed heere in Christ shall signifie the whole Manhood and Godhead in him Further that which e Pa. 32 you bring out of the f 2. Corâ— Corinthians compared with this in Peter doeth most fitlie and clearely open and confirme the
faith that Christes Soule after death Ascended to Heaven remayned there till his Resurrection Namely the Analogy of faith requireth that the Head should bee there where the members were and where they remaine till their Resurrection that there he tary till his Resurrection It seemeth also these texts wil prove it a Ioh. 1â— Where J am there also shall my servant be b cap. 17 I will that where I am there they also shall be with me I see not but that he promiseth heere his servants even a locall accoÌ„panying of him after this life that also generally whither soever he went Moreover this the Fathers c Only Aâ— wavereth where afâ—â—â—ming foâ— where dâ—â—ting all with one voyce I may truly affirme do teach and believe even that Christ after death went no whither but where his faithfull and holy servants were yea and there remayned till his Resurrection To which consent of men somewhere you ascribe exceeding much so that d Perpeâ—â—vern episâ—â— 10. you plainly avouch the coÌ„trary alwayes to be a notorious if not a pernicious novelty To which purpose also other Scriptures doe make very much as where Christ being in the paines of death and presently about to end his life saith Father into thy hands I commend my Soule This being spoken at such a time in the depth of such wofull sorrowes and by such a person in all good reason Gods hands whereinto he commendeth his Soule according to our common vse of speach must be Gods ioyfull peace and Heavenly glory which is also suteable to the scripture phrase as already I have shewed â—reat 1. â—â—g 151. â—â—g 361. neither shew * you any thing against this For what if Gods hands on other occasions do signifie his Power and generall protection only Doth it follow that therefore Holy men oppressed with paines and now about to Dy when they say Father into thy handes I commend my Soule they meane not the ioyes of HeaveÌ„ You aske was David dying when he spake those words He might bee in deadly sorrowes or dangers for any thing you know to the contrary But suppose he were not theÌ„ in danger to dy Yet the Prophets generall sentence may fitly be applyed to this more speciall case of Christ as all men know Howsoever then David were when he spake thus yet Christ now dying ready to come out of most wofull paines doth surely meane when he said so as other holy men do in like case namely to go to Heavâ—n To like purpose serveth that comfort given to the Theefe and common to himselfe This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise As touching †Austius divers opinion and yours â—our p. 360 â—ag 29. see before Be you reconciled vnto him and then let him speake for you Lastlie where the eternal and generall Ordinance of God is shewed to be such â—â—â—k 16.26 that * none can goe out of Heaven downe to Hell nor come from Hell vp to Heaven The text excepteth heere not one This therefore I doubt not is in truth a cleere point against which wee shall find not a worde in scripture that Christes Soule after death was there where the holy Patriarkes deceased were there remayned till his Resurrection So that how you will doe to maintaine that Christ c went indeed vnto them 〈◊〉 220.361 but presently left them that hee might go to Hell I know not In this I doubt you walke f without your guide â—â—g 91. But to proceed I adde that which is a cleere and certaine 〈◊〉 189.193 〈◊〉 219. yea that which g your selfe rightly beleeveth and professeth with vs though against the opinion of the Fathers That the Soules of the holy Patriarkes dead before Christ were not beneath but above not in Limbo but with God in peace ioy blissee even in Paradice 〈◊〉 192.203 that is h Heaven The which to be a doctrine most true against the Popish errour heerein I have briefly i heerto fore â—â—eat 1. â—â—g 131. yet I hope sufficiently proved Therefore hence I conclude that Christs Soule after his death Ascended indeede and descended not downward beneath vs heere 2. Only except there be some speciall reason of good authority to the contrary which is the second point of importance heere to be considered Touching which this I say without expresse and evident Scripture there is in the worlde no sound nor meet authority to disprove our former Reason and Conclusion This also Austin himselfe avoucheth well and faithfully that is supposing there is no expresse nor plaine Scripture for Christs Descending then saith he a Epist â— Miror si quam ad ros cum dâ— dissâ— asserâ— auderet it were marvailous bouldnes that any should dare say he went down to Hel. And againe b Serm. â—temp 14 Nemo de Christo credat nisi quod de se credi voluit Christus No man ought to believe any thing concerning Christ but what himself in his word would have vs to believe Now I assume this and by Gods helpe shall make it manefest No Scripâ—â— at al that Châ—â—â— Soule asâ—â— death dâ— soended That there is in all the Scripture no one place whereby it may bee proved by any shew of reason that Christs Soul after this life went locally downward from hence or diversly from the Soules of all good men deceased besides Yea whatsoever is pretended from the Scripture expresly to prove that he did Descend is but very little and exceeding weake Script prâ—ded Only there are 2. or 3. places sensibly wrested and drawen to this purpose 1. c Your paâ—â— 212. That where Christ is said to have d â—ph 4. come downe into the lowest partes of the earth * Treat â—â—â— pag. 14â— But I have largely and plainly shewed that this place speaketh not a whit neither of Hell nor of Christs Soule descending locally neither before his death nor after It noteth only Christs sensible and apparant Humiliation to the last and lowest point that is to the Grave According to the Hebrue phrase which the Apostles frequented in their Greeke writings very much So that no reason appeareth why or how this place may shew that his Soule after death went downward The rather seeing you will have Christes going downe d Pag 41 to Hell the first and that a notable part of his exaltation and triumph But this was manefestly as I said his lowest abasement Therefore this toucheth not his going down to Hell Where e Pag. 2â— you expound the text say He descended to the lowest and ascended to the highest that he might fill all places with the presence of his Manhood you speake both f In respeâ—â— vbiquitaâ—â— inconveniently and far from the Apostles meaning Who signifieth only Christes filling g Ephe. 1. â— 19 all his Church with the giftes of his Spirit which by his Ascending he h Ioh. 16 7â— Luck 24 4â— promised
to doe and i Act. 2.33 so did indeed Heere is nothing about his filling all places with the presence of his manhood Much lesse is there expresly in the text that which k you adde to it with his presence very deceitfully in a differing letter like the text and togeather with the text â—â—g 212. What censure this deserveth the godly doe knowe Wherefore yet wee must be so scrupulous still as to stick at the phrase of Christs Descending in Soule for as yet wee see no worde in all the whole Scripture any thinge neere much lesse equivalent therevnto If you will vrge that where Christ is said to have a ben 3. dayes 3. nightes in the heart of the earth â—at 12.40 there is nothing els then as before â—ag 21â— even his Buriall Your exception that b Christes sepulchre was in the higher partes of the earth frustrateth not the maner of the Hebrue phrase after which the Scripture speaketh both here and in the last before as I c have declared plainly in my 1. Treatise It seemeth 〈◊〉 144.146 your not considering or not caring for the vse and maner of the Hebrue toung causeth your mistaking as in these places so likewise in all or most of the rest yea indeed it causeth your errour in this maine questioÌ„ as after it will more appeare Third you d make much of that â—ag 213. which doeth you not a pinnes worth of good where it is asked e who shall descend into the deepe â—om 10.7 that is to bring Christ againe from the dead If the deepe heere did signifie Hell which yet certainly it doeth not but suppose it doeth Howe will that follow which you presume that Christ dying desceÌ„ded into the deepe The text saith no such thing It saith he was with the dead and that from thence he came and therfore by this I rather conclude it was thither only that he descended Which also is signified elswhere in the same words â—ph 1.20 f froÌ„ the dead Thus I say the dead heere importeth the generall condition and state of all the Dead as it is opposed to the state of the Living and so it sheweth Christes lowest and last Humiliation as the other places did before saving that before his Grave particularly is intended heere the state of death may bee applyed to his whole humane Person and to both partes thereof dissolved Yea it is not vnlikely that the former word g the deepe is vsed also heere by the Apostle to signifie not Hell Abyssus but even this condition and state of death which is as a Gulfe bottomles never satisfied vnrecoverable Like as Sheol in Hebrue doth likewise properly signifie as after we shall further declare This meaning the Syriak Translator an ancient writer of no small credit seemeth to have sith he turneth it Abyssum Sepulchri the deepe of the Grave And then the deepe signifying heere the state and condicion of Death the Apostle seemeth to expresse his meaning to that effect more clearely in these next words this is to bring Christ againe from the dead that is to frustrate Christes Death wherevnto he descended for our sakes We may consider also that this word heere the deepe many times is referred to the vast Gulfes deepe pits of the earth and likewise to the vnknowen deepe and furthest partes of the sea Now the Apostle may seeme to vse this large signifying word of purpose to expresse the infinit searching about of an incredulous and comfortles minde which seeketh iustice before God by the keeping of the Lawe Who indeed thereby getteth nothing but maketh void vnto it selfe the Gospell and all Christes benefits therein His Death and Resurrection his Ascention c. The Apostle then may insinuat in this word all these senses and significations thereof namely I say with other even such a seeking to the deepest and farthest partes of the Sea to learne somewhere if it might be among all the Creatures of God how to fulfill and keepe the Law For so Moses whom heere he doeth cite * Deu. 30 13. expreslie signifieth then so the Apostle also signifieth the very same For these 3. things the Apostle delivereth heere togeathet 1. That the Law and the Gospell do greatly differ namely in that the Law doeth not save vs but the Gospell doeth 2. He sheweth the cause heereof for that no flesh can keepe the Law nor ever could as he confirmeth by this out of Moses where men thinking to live by the Law are noted to seeke and search every where far and neere by all wayes meanes that they might satisfie their own hearts and finde how to keepe it which proveth that their owne heartes beare witnes that they keepe it not neither can keepe it 3. Hee sheweth that thus by seeking to live by the Law they loose the life of God coming by Christes Death and Resurrection in the Gospell Thus the Apostle rightly keepeth him selfe to the whole matter and meaning of Moses whose wordes though shortened he citeth and discourseth vpon But then it is not possible that the deepe heere should have any reference at all to Hell For what colour is there to make a man pensive about keeping the Law to aske who shall goe downe for him among the Divells and damned spirtis to bring it thence vnto him or to imagine that the keeping of the Law might be rather there then in his owne heart or that any meanes might be got from thence to helpe men that they might keepe it There is no likelilyhood for this out of doubt Therefore also the deepe heere signifieth not Hell any way seeing the Apostle doubtles retayneth Moses sense as is aforesaid Lastly I may not omit to shew how you deale heere againe with the text You alleage it a He descended into the deepe â—ag 220. all with speciall letters differing from the rest of purpose to shew that Christs descent into Hell for so you take the deepe is found written in the very Scripture But He is cuÌ„ningly added to the text neither are these words meant of Him but of a Pharisaical MeritmoÌ„ger searching everywhere for righteousnes by works â—ag 153. b as is before declared The like practise c you vse againe in the Psalme â—ag 147. â—sa 139.8 where the d text hath only veatsignah Sheol If J lodge or if J spread my couch in Sheol thou art there There is no word to expresse beneath which you put into the text of your own head The same also I noted in e you before â—ag 152. â—â—fore pa. 66 Somewhere you charge me but f vainly with falsifying of Ierom. If I had by oversight don so yet that were not like this falsifying which is not of men but of Gods owne word not by oversight but of purpose for advantage These are all the Scriptures that can be brought to make anie shewe of Christes Soule descending locally after his death Which being abused
haue another age “ Dâ—r◠〈◊〉 age my coâ—â—nuance or during oâ— my maÌ„sioÌ„ or induring or Mansion and be remoued to another place This can not be vnderstood of his Carcase rotting and wasting away to nothing in the graue and therefore indureth not as the word signifieth therfore he meaneth it of his Soules removing and abiding elswhere Also he expresly opposeth the land of the living to Sheol therfore Sheol is the land of the dead not the graue only nor Hell only * Which alâ— to be collecâ— of that in Prophet toâ—â—ing Christ scinditurâ— râ viventiâ— Isai 53.8 but as large and as generall to the dead and as fit to receaue both the partes of men yea both good and bad men but separated and dissolved as the land of the living is to receave both those partes vnited and knit togeather Againe Hezekiah was a godly man therefore hell was not for him also though hee should not see the Lord in the land of the living which was the thing he desired yet thereby hee seemeth to insinuate that in the land of the dead hee might see him whither he was about to go and that must needes be the place of blessed Soules even that which heere is noted by the word Sheol â—â—g 150. It is a most vaine reason that you give that sheol heere is to be taken for Hell and so to be translated because death to the wicked is the passage to Hel which death Hezekiah was now neere vnto It is vntrue that Hezekiah was neere vnto that death which the wicked dy or that he feared that kind of death or that there is no sound differeÌ„ce betwene the death of the godly the death of the wicked or that by any meanes according to sound divinity the death of the godly may be named or taken for Hell This is so vaine that I will not stand any longer to answere it Another obiection of yours a is as weake Pag. 400. where you say Sheol heere must be the Grave because it is said b afterward ver 18. Sheol doth not confesse the death cannot praise thee c. Though I grant that the Grave is not heere excluded especially in the words next after They that go down to the pit cannot hope for thy truth yet I affirme that Sheol namely in the former place vers 10. cannot exclude the mansion of good mens soules departed hence that for the reasons aboue noted Neither heere doth this circumstance limite it to the Grave onely because it is said Sheol confesseth not thee For it is evident that He Zekiah meaneth not absolutly that there is no praising of God in Sheol but onely hee vnderstandeth that which c hee so greatly desired â—hich was ytâ—â—inary great â—re of the â—lly geneâ—y psal 42. 84.1 the outward frequenting of the Temple the holy Ceremonies and Sacrifices ioyning to the visible congregation and publishing of Gods goodnes to others Which hee expresseth immediatly to be that praising of God that he meaneth cannot be in Sheol by knitting close to the former these words d The living â—sa 38.19 the living he shall confesse thee as I do this day the Father to the Children shall declare the truth This is that which he denieth of sheol that none there doe praise God to the example and edifying of others He denyeth not simply nor absolutly that there is none in sheol at all in any respect that praise God The very same David expresseth also very plainly Psal 116.9 saing e I shall walke before the Lord in the land of the living Psal 118.17 and f I shall not dye but live and declare the workes of the Lord. Where vnlesse they meant only this visible praysing of God to others edifying otherwise these holy men had no cause so greatly to desire to praise God heere for they knew very wel how that for their own parts they should prayse him much better and more perfitly in the next world The Seâ—â—â—â—gint vse 〈◊〉 in the fanâ—â—â—â—â— To the very same purpose the Septuagint vse hades in other places also besides in their translating of these aforesaid For it is truly and well acknowledged by you g Pag 4â— that both these wordes Sheol and Hades are iust all one Now the Septuagint I say in other places do shew thus much also h Psal 9 〈◊〉 after the â—â—â—tuagint Jf the Lord had not holpen me my soule had almost dwelt in Hados in Hebrue it is in silence Which is not meant of hell for there is weeping and wayling and gnashing of teeth but of the state of death Nor yet of the Grave onely because heere it is named to bee the Habitation of the Prophets soule whither it was almost come when he was like to have dyed Againe i Psal 7â— My soule was filled with sorrowes and my life drew neere to hades How my soule and my lift heere are taken for the selfe same I have shewed before As also in that of Iob k Iob. 3â— his life or soule is in hades in the world of the Dead Againe it suffiseth for our purpose that Hades and Sheol are often vsed even indifferently for “ Sheoll 〈◊〉 Hades aâ—â—â—sed often 〈◊〉 only Deaâ—â— effect Thanaâ—â—â—mors Death and as being in effect the same or for the state and Condicion of Death or the Power of Death Which also sometime we may likewise conceave of the Latin Inferi which is by the Translatours and other writers vsed for Sheol and Hades though I deny not very daungerously and corruptly in deed First for a Pro. 2â— misheol the Greeke hath ek thanátou from death reckoning Death and Sheol to be all one So in Ecclesiastes b Eccle. Sheol and c veâ—s Hammethim the dead are in effect all one And the very same doeth Esai call d Isa 3â— Shagnare Sheol the gates of sheol which the e Psa 9. â— 107.18 Psalmes and f Iob. 3â— Iob doe call Shagnare maueth the gates of Death In the * Pâ—o. 3â— and 27â— Proverbes he meaneth Death not Hell nor the Grave strictly taken where by an excellencie the greedines of it is noted for being Neuer satisfied For Death generally craâ—eth more then either Hell or the Grave strictly taken do So likewise Abakuk coupleth them togeather as being in effect alone “ Abaâ— Like sheoll and Death it will not be satisfied Thus also it will appeare that that which g Psal â— David reioyseth for the very same in effect h Psal â— Christ heere reioyseth for Only with this difference David reioyseth that God had delivered his soule from death theÌ„ when he was likely to have dyed Christ reioyseth because God would deliuer his soule from the Condicion of Death sheol after he was in it speedily even before his flesh should corrupt This might be evideÌ„tly shewed in infinit places mo but that it is vtterly needles In this
other fancyes fictions of the Heathen As for example Zeus Iupiter was among the Heathens their great God he only was their highest of whom besides they held a 1000. fables and indeed he was none other but a Divell as is before noted Nevertheles the Apostle vseth the same for the only true God the author and governour of Heaven and Earth passing by all their Fables when he applyeth the Poets verse a Act. 2â— His generation also we are Tartarus which b Pag. 3â— you obiect though rarely sometime perhaps a Philosopher will note thereby the Ayer yet indeed vsually and in a maner alwayes they meant Hell by it with a thousand of dreames thereto belonging Yet Peter not canonizing nor commending their dreames and fictions of Hell notwithstanding signifyeth Hell indeed by that worde of theirs according to their common vse thereof and according to the proportion of truth which therein they held So Daimonion which also c Pag. ibâ—â— you obiect they vsed to signifie by it both good and bad Spirits following and conversing with them and the good they honoured as Gods But indeede and in truth seeing these same were all Divels therefore the Scripture holdeth not the Heathens erroneous meaning in this word yet it doth retayne that which they vnderstood by it truly that is to signifie Divells and bad spirits Againe Theos the Heathen vsed for to expresse the Nature of God but so as that they thought it coÌ„mon to many severall Gods The Apostles vse the word also for the true God yet not vnderstanding therein a nature common to many which error they otherwise cleerely and often refute And thus we might speake of infinit mo the like wordes as Feare the power and strength whereof they also fained to be a God and of Hope and of Revenge Goddesses c. Like wherevnto is Hades even that which presently we have in hande The diveâ—â— applicatâ—â— of Hadeâ— With the HeatheÌ„ it commonly and most vsually signified the state of Dead men somtime rarely the Destruction of other things which perish out of this visible world haue no more being heere Whereof anon we shall see further Howbeit now to consider it as it respecteth men only thus the Heathens chiefly and commonly by Hades vnderstoode the state I say and Condition of men both good and bad deceased and gone out of this world And they meant it commonly for the Destruction of their persons from out of this world generally and indifferently Againe oftentimes particularly touching their Bodyes buriall also particularly many things touching their Soules state being parted from the Body Some of which they believed were in Blessednes some in Tormentes although they signified neither of these in the word Hades but onely as I said their state after their departure hence Also they thought some of the Blessed Soules to be in the a chiefest Blessednes â—Vhich you â—â—iect pag. â—â—4 376. that was in presense with the Gods Yet they were in Hades also that is in an other world after they were wiped out from hence Hither they admitted onlie Philosophers Treat 1 pa. â— Heroês such like Thus hither it is that b Plato assigneth Socrates and thus Socrates him selfe hopeth to goe to Hades to the wise and good God Other Soules of good men they gave Blessednes vnto in the Elysian fieldes vnder the earth as they fancied or where els I know not And these were also in Hades So that both these estates and condicions of blessed Soules deceased which was their Heaven though differing very much in places they yeeldâ—d to be in Hades Whence I thinke some of the Fathers and after them some Papistes haue fayned divers places of rest and ioy to the Dead Heaven presently to the Martyrs but to other good Christians an other place of rest ioy which they called Abrahams bosome either in the earth or where they also knew not Howbeit into the glory of Heauen and the presence of God and of Christ they admit none save only the Martyrs before the last day But this errour and all other errors about Hades the Apostles sufficiently confute in their writings so that we are not now to respect the same in the vse of Hades Onely we are therefore to note how much and what besides all errours may bee truly retayned and meant by the Apostles in applying this worde Hades as the Heathen did to both sortes of Soules of Dead men They might truely vnderstand that both have one common condicion and state as touching their being in another world as they were dissolved departed from and wiped out of this visible world aâ— they were now in the world of the Dead an opposite estate condicion to the living This also the very Natural Etymologie of the word according to Grammar doeth properly yeeld in that it signifieth c Vnseene Hades The â—â—ke may be â—â—â—id of Sheol or Not seene any more in this world or an estate not seene heere with vs topos aîdes an Vnseene place as Plato calleth it Where note it cannot be referred to the estate of Angels because Hades is the vnseene state of them that once had a visible and ordinary being and conversation heere in this world So that in very deed it hath properly but a Privative sense not any thing positive in it though this d you can not brooke All this then the Apostles might well vnderstand allow in the word Hades Pag. 396. without any taint of Heathenisme And therfore also doubtles so they did But the heathens further made Hades a Divine power whom also they called Pluto as it were the God of Death or of the Dead because as before is shewed they dreamed that he held all that were Dead vnder his power both blessed damned soules And because no man that dyeth whether good or bad doeth ever live heere againe and because all whosoever without exception must dy therefore they call him Hades améilichos kai adámastos implaâ—able and vnmastered and Nélees êtor echôn having a mercilesso bea rt In which sense in Latin also they vsed Parca Destiny the ende of all because it spareth none Certainly this Deifying of such a Power or to make a God of it the Apostles abhorred and every where in their writinges they shew what Idolatry and extreame impiety it is But yet they may and do acknowledg such a power of Death which worketh this Destruction of all men froÌ„ the world detayneth them in Death afterward Wherefore they have in sundry places Prosopopoeas thereof as in the Revelation the Keyes of Death and Hades Death riding on a pale horse and Hades following after him Death and Hades yeelded vp their dead and both were cast into Hell Likewise that O Death where is thy sting O Power of death where is thy victory But of these more anon Hitherto the 1. observation is manefest that the Apostles vsing the Heathens words yet need not nor
this last way is not the vnlikelyest Hades heere signifieth in effect nothing els but Death that Christs Soul departed this life was held therein but could not be holden fast â—â—g 166. You obiect c We must not make a Figurative sense but where manefest need is Heere is no need of a figurative sense Therefore heere ought to be no Figure supposed I answer First wee grant your Conclusion whether of the 2. former wayes soever that we take hades so there is simply no Figure at all therein Sec Then your own sense of Hell in this place is cleane overthrown by your selfe For whensoever hades and sheol do signifie Hell it is indeed by a Figure namely Synékdoche where the Whole is set for a part Which I have proved at large before â—â—re pag. particularly by d Tremellius a sufficient man for his Hebrue skill Wherefore by this reason Hell cannot possibly be meant heere if no Figure be admitted Third it seemeth convenient and also likely to take hades heere by a Prosopopoea after our 3. sense before noted Which kind of Figure supposeth as it were a Person of that thing which otherwise a word properly signifieth So that by this figure nothing of the wordes native signification is diminished Thus our word hades is vsed in the Corinthians O Hades where is thy victory Also as it may seeme in the Revelation Death Hades were cast into Hell â—â—ther as pa. 17â— Thus then it is nothing but emphatically signifying the power of Death Fourth Admit that hades and sheol did properly signifie Hell as we see they do not Likewise that sometime they signifie only the Grave which also you acknowledg it is true when it is applyed to a dead Body Againe admit that nephesh by a Figure may signifie the whole Person yea e the dead Body somtimes 〈◊〉 doth 〈◊〉 21.1 〈◊〉 2â— 4 Then I affirme that heere in this place of necessity there ought to be vnderstood a Figurative sense Heere is plainly most necessary cause For take them thus literally as you doe and they impugne the groundes of faith and charitie Which f Pag 1â— you grant that rightly is sufficient to cause a Figurative sense in Scripture But how do they impugne faith or charity being taken as you take them Verily thus Your sense implyeth by the way and consequently Points in Assertion â—â—â—trary to â—â—â—coÌ„mon â—â—oâ— Faith 〈◊〉 charity that a good and sinles man yea the best that ever was worthy of Paradise and the highest Heavens yet after death did go to Hell And further that being in Heaven yet he stayed not there as you say but immediatly came out againe to go into Hell Againe that a Humane soule being in the depth of Hell yet should feele no paines and that being locally in hell it should com out thence also What can be more against the generall rules of the Scripture then these things Yea how doth this impugne our generall charity towards all the iust when they dy Besides many other disproportions and vnreasonable inconveniences following withall as anon we shall further see Wherefore if by any meames possibly a Figure may be heere admitted certainly it must be so for these most necessary causes last rehearsed The rather seeing no other text any where insinuateth any such peculiar matter in Christ that he should differ in these points from all good men els as you do vrge But you say The Cirâ—â—stances 〈◊〉 against yâ—â— the circumstances heere doe prove that the word must be Hell properly taken That I would faine see What are these circumstances First this place sheweth * Pag. 1â— a special prerogative verified in none but in Christ I deny it heere is no such prerogative mentioned Except this that whereas some other men after death have returned to life againe it was not by their owne power as Christs ResurrectioÌ„ was Againe God in his revealed wil having signified by his Prophet long before that he should be restored speedily to life againe thus it was simply impossible that Christ should be holden fast by the power of Death although it had got hold of him And so indeed he had a prerogative before all men ells which also is heere shewed vs but no other prerogative in the world neither heere nor any where els caÌ„ be gathered touching his returne from Hell You adde No flesh dead was ever free from corruption but only Christes What then Ergo his Soule was in Hell Or ells why bring you such needles and impertinent matter Besides I iudge that not to be true Were not a Pag. 1â— some being dead raised to life againe before their flesh putrified But nonâ— you say in the sepulchre And what then How will this inferre or prove that so none but Christs Soul was ever supported in Hel or that it was ever there These are simple reasons for so great a conclusion Then you say Jf by Hell we vnderstand Paradise it was no privilege to be there not forsaken but rather a childish absurdity to thinke any Soule might be there forsaken It is a strange absurdity still to abuse your reader calling this word Hel â—â—tio prinâ—◠〈◊〉 which indeed is nothing but Death in effect the Power of death or the condition and state of death Againe to presume that wee take it for Paradise or Heaven or Hell at any time when we referre it allwayes to the generall state of the Dead and no further immediatly Now in this Christ had cause to reioyce that neither his Soule nor Body was left but so soone raysed vp to perfit life againe and so sitted to a full receaving of glory which within few dayes after he had Also besides this cause his deliverance from the condition of death he had an other inestimable cause to reioyce that he was raised to life againe namely that he might fulfill his whole work for our Salvation which before his Resurrection Ascension c he could not accomplish â—â—g 170. Further b you obiect that Peter maketh mention that the sorrows of death were broken that they should not hold Christ nor hinder him from rising againe But there were none such in the Grave none in Paradise Therfore in Hel Christs Soule was whence he was delivered when he rose againe I denie vtterly this sequele Because the text saith not that there were any present sorrowes in Hades where Christ was Heere is not a word to any such purpose 〈◊〉 2.24 What saith the text God raised him vp loosing the sorrowes of Death because it was impossible for him to bee holden fast of it Wil you coÌ„clude froÌ„ hence Ergo there were present sorrows in that place where Christ was There is no strength in this reason The Apostle signifieth heere 2. or 3. things 1. That God loosed Death froÌ„ him wherein hee was held but could not be holden fast 2. That this Death had bene a most sorrowfull painfull Death
the Apostle mentioneth the i Ephe. 2.2 Ayre and that k cap. 6.12 on high as being the place of Divels Notwithstanding far be it from me to affirme that hell certainly is not beneath Yet your pretended scripturs are meerely forced to prove it As in the chief I have shewed already In the rest it will appeare likewise anon Howbeit wheresoever Hel indeed is though we do grant in it to be locally in the earth beneath vs yet every Opposition betwene Shammajim the Heavens or Skyes and Sheol doth not signifie the opposition betweene Heaven and Hel. This you shall never be able to prove Shammajim thus placed signifieth the Skyes not the very place of Heavenly glory in the presense of God which in English we call Heaven And Sheol thus placed signifieth not Hell the place of torments but it is taken thus 2. wayes Somtime for †a vast and deepe Gulfe only or pit in the earth Abyssus the bottom wherof we know not Amos. 9.2 Iob. 11.8 Psa 139.8 So doe a many of your places meane which you draw and wrest to signifie Hell Somtime for Ruine and Destruction or Abolishing of any visible Creatures from hence which seemeth to be the largest most proper sense of Sheol â—heols proper sense So doth it in Jsay signifie where Sheol is threatned to the King of Babel b Though thou be lifted vp to the Skyes Isa 14.15 yet shalt thou bee brought downe to Sheol that is in this place to an inglorious Destruction and No being in this word and thy carcase vnto the sides of the pit that is the Grave This the contrariety heere sheweth Thougâ— thou be lifted vp to the Skyes He meaneth not heere into the glory of the Saints of God in Heaven but lifted vp in great pomp and worldly glory as the Latin phrase meaneth also when they say ad sydera tolli Now saith the Prophet to this King of Babell Though at this time it be thus with thee yet surely thou shalt be brought down to the contrary point to an inglorious Destruction and a wiping out from the Earth Which sense of Isay is also very well confirmed by the like matter in Ieremy c Though Babel should mount vp to the Heavens â—er 51.53.4 and though she should defend her strength on high yet from me shall her Destroyers come saith the Lord. A sound of a cry cometh from Babel and of great Destruction from the Chaldeans c. Where that which Isay called Sheol Ieremy speaking of the very same matter nameth Destruction vtter laying wast and overthrowing of that City and State And so to come to our purpose A very Heâ—raisme d this is the very same phrase heere in Mathew touching Capernaum Thou Capernaum which art lift vp to the Heaven shalt be brought down to Hades that is to Destruction to an inglorious Not being any more in the world as before time it had ben â—â—des DestructioÌ„ Razing â—aking away Which also is confirmed by that which he addeth presently of Sodom that if they had had the meanes of repentance as Capernaum had Sodom might have remayned a City to this day Inferring by this that Capernaum for their greater contempt of God and his word deserved more then Sodom to be destroyed to becom no City Hitherto this is the first iudgment threatned to the state of the City Hades Destruction or an vtter razing out from the earth The 2. iudgment heere threatned followeth in the next verse Moveover I say vnto you that it shal be easier for them of the land of Sodom in the day of iudgment then for these Heere indeed is Hell threatned to them of Capernaum yet as touching that before there was nothing els but the overthrow and destruction of their Citie signifyed by that worde Hades applyed to the Citie as is before declared And contrary to this you haue not any piece of reason in al that “ Pa. 147 1â— 409. you say here about The world of Souls which †Pag. 403.409 you play withall Hades may and doeth signifie but yet then only when it is referred to deceased Soules not otherwise Next let vs view the Corinthes a Pag 408. 1. Cor. 1â— 55 O Death where is thy victorie O Hades O Destruction or O Power of Death where is thy sting Heere it is referred to the destruction of the whole and intire Persons of men taken away by death out of this worlde who in the end by this conquest and triumph over Death the power therof at the last day shal be restored to life againe in a true and perfit Resurrection and restitution This is the whole scope and drift of the Apostle heere and you graunt it But you inferre that therfore it is meant of Hel. Of Hell which way Because since by sinne Hell gat possession of both partes of man aswell of his body as of his Soule the full deliverance and conquest ouer Hell is not but in the Resurrection This is very vntrue Our full deliverance from Hell and from Satan is obtayned in this life as it is written b Luke 1.7 We being delivered from our enemies and from the handes of all that hate vs must serve him without feare all the dayes of our life in bolines and righteousnes before him That is we being heere truly iustified by his grace are fully freed and delivered from all the power of our enemies Satan is c Luke 11. 〈◊〉 Rom 8.33 Ioh. 8.51 5 5.24 conquered spoyled bound and cast out from vs. So that your speach is very bad and scandalous where you say d Pag. 216. The bodyes of the Saintes lying in their graves are in the Divells walke For then the Graves where bodyes ly senseles are a part of Hell properly taken At least the Deaths of the Reprobat and of the Children of God e Answerab to your doâ—trine pa. 24 touching the state of their bodyes till the resurrection are all one And men truly iustified are iustified but in their Soules Sinne remayning stil charged on their Bodies and therefore in their bodyes they remaine subiect to the power of Hell and to the curse of the Law and to the claime of Satan till the day of our Resurrection at the last iudgement You call it 〈◊〉 part of the â—ages of sin And thus the godly must pay a part of their own redemption and satisfaction for sinne And then Christ was not our only and absolut Redeemor If this be good doctrine let the godly iudge Your selfe overthroweth this enough Pag. 156. saying f He changed the curse of death and made it now a rest from all labours So that I hope the Bodyes of the dead Saintes are not in the * Divells walke Nor subiecâ—ed to the Râ—â—ge of Saâ—an much lesse are they g in the possession of Hell Pag 216. in the handfast of Hell Further you say vpon the text Pag. 178
thereof Which in trueth these our wordes in question doe well performe He came vnder the Dominion of Death or Went to the societie of the Dead following presently after these wordes Dead Buried And thus your 2. Rule alse Consequence of order is rightly kept For euen in respect of time it is certaine that Christs whole person perishing froÌ„ hence was wholy ioyned to the Dead after the precise separation of his Soule and body which was his Death And his Buriall being the visible part thereof in good reason may be set before that which signifieth the whole contayning also his Soules invisible going vnto the Dead Lastly if there be no more in this but a stronger emphasis meerely a more full-signifying phrase it might well come after termes of lesse emphasis Your 3. and last Rule Proprietie of Wordes is plainly for vs and against your selfe For that which we strive for is the a Pa. 157 169 17â— native and proper sense of Hades even according to the etymologie of it and according to common vse You if you vrge it to signifie Hel do indeed make a †Pa. 171. Figure in it viz. Synecdoche a part for the whole as before we haue shewed As for the other word heere in the Creed katébe or katélthe Hee descended or came vnder it is not necessarie to take it alwayes to signifie a locall going downe specially thus ioyned with Hades For thus it may aptly lively shew the fall or whole casting down of a mans person from the state of life to death and vtter destruction out of this world as also men are said to stand vp and spring vp when they live Or it may serue to expresse the Force and Dominion of Death which Christ came vnder when he dyed Or the abasement and humiliation of Christ yeelding submitting him selfe so farre that is not onely to Dy but also to come vnder the strength and force of death by lying held subdued as it were for so long time in it All this the very property of the word katebe admitteth very easilie and Ruffinus liketh it where he interpreteth this phrase â—uffin in â—â—mb Descendit in mortem He descended vnto Death If any thinke this to be somewhat figurative yet it is verily so familiar and easie to all people as that other word in this Creed is He sitteth at the right hand of God yea it is farie easier indeed And heerein all the later famous learned and godly Restorers of Religion in a maner doe ioyne with vs as Mat. Bucer P. Martyr Bulinger â—â—slitut Olevia c. Yea M. Calvin liked this also wel enough though yet he seemeth to leane more to another sense viz. Christes Hellish sufferings which indeed is a true doctrine as before is declared though to this place of the Creed I thinke not so fit Now these men your L. ought not to skorne nor reproch though you have leave to deale so with me Their pietie learning and authoritie is such with all that love the Gospell as will overwaigh your big wordes and high lookes and whatsoever els you are lifted vp withal aboue our mediocritie Hitherto we haue answered admitting the authoritie of these wordes He descended to Hades But wee are in truth to know â—ere that as you cite them and vige them they have no such authoritie credit as hitherto we have yeelded vnto them And that for 3. causes First for that your TraÌ„slating and terming them He descended into Hel is corrupt partiall and vntrue Which I trust is manifest by that which I have shewed before touching the true property natural vse of Hades If you say among vs all men do so speak heere and translate hades Hel. I pray you coÌ„sider that this article as also I think this whole Creed was at first written in Greek and not in English Wherefore the English terme how comon so ever must not preiudice vs nor the truth in this matter as very vnreasonably a you indeavour to make it to do â—â—g 420. Convince vs evidently and soundly by Greek authoritie that Hades is alwayes Hell or that Hades is never applyed to the condicion and state of the godly deceased and then I will yeeld or els my sufficient proofes before to the contrary will convince the vntrue and partiall translation Another reason to deny vtterly the authority and credit of these wordes He descended to hades so to hold them vnable to make any argument as from our Creed is because this speciall clause of Christs descending to Hades or to Infernum is new and lately put into our vulgar Creed called the Apostles Creed b Ruffin Symb. Ruffinus witnesseth who lived about 500. yeeres after Christ that it was not at all in the Creed in his time I say not at allâ— neither in the Romane Creed nor yet in the Creed of the Easterne Churches His words are these Sciendum sanè est quod in Ecclesiae Romanae symbolo non habetur additum Deseendit ad inferna sed nee in Orientis Ecclesiis habetur hic sermo Will you say Ruffinus lyeth Or can you bring to the contrarie any proofe I think not yea I am sure you can not Then if there were no such Article as this nor anie such wordes any where in the Creed for the space of 500. yeres after Christ I mervaile what authoritie they haue now to be taken necessarily for a distinct article in our Creed and as differing materially from Dead and Buried Sure it is a Namely Desâ—â—â—le Hades to new to be receaved for doctrine which b Pag. 13â— sprang vp so late Yea thus c Erasm 〈◊〉 Symb. Caâ—â— 4. Erasmus may seeme to haue some colour for his coniecture that about Thomas Aquinas time they might peradventure be put into this Creed Third we can not see but that whensoever whosoever put it first into this place they signified heereby it seemeth that Christ went to Limbus a place vnder the earth where they imagined the blessed Patriarkes rested For this was indeed the opinion generally of the ancient Christians even for “ Limbus inter tayâ— before Châ—â— descendinâ— bades waâ— our set â—câ— oâ— the Crâ—â— a long time and stil is retayned among the Papistes though now growen much worse theÌ„ it was of old But this you iustly coÌ„demne as an error as wel as we how generall and how ancient soever it be Now also though this were the 1st meaning of this Article whensoever it fiâ—fte tooke place in the common Creed yet this was not Hell this giveth no furtherance to your assertion that Christ went into the place of the Damned in tormentes But Thaddaeus Jgnatius Athanasius haue these very words Yet they say not any where that they were in that set forme of the Apostles Creed * Which â—â—deed they 〈◊〉 had not which we now have Also they are cleane against your opinion heere as presently wee shall see You will say yet
to this purpose so palpably as before we haue seene I must in earnest say I marvaile that any will beleeve it as an article of faith that Christes Soule descended Specially considering our next reason which followeth Our 2. and most principall Reason is this â—ason 2 If there bee not one place of Scripture to prove that Christes Soule was in Hell then you ought to deny that opinion But you have not indeed any one place that proveth it Therefore it ought to be denyed Against this Argument you say you have one place Pag. 167. Act 2 27. Euen onely one where you thinke it is plaine that Christ saith He reioyceth because God would not leaue his soule in Hell â—r one only â—e neede â—â—e passing â—re and beâ—â—â— all exâ—â—â—ion as this â—â—t For so you must haue it heere translated in Hell even because you will But if men with reason resist your will and proue vnto you that it ought not to bee taken heere for Hell then I pray take it patiently and vse not such raging despitefull termes as against me you do as if I were not worthy to speake of those matters that you speake of vnlesse I would be bound to say your words How be it I beseech you giue vs leave This sentence taken out of Davids a Psal â—â— Psalmes alleadged in the Actes signifieth the very b Pag. â—â— same thing in both places The Hebrew word controversed is Sheol the Greeke Hades Now must the word Sheol and Hades needes signifie Hell being applied to soules departed hence So indeede you c Pa. 1 â—02 avouch more confidently then truly and heerevpon it seemeth you d Pa. 1â— pawne the triall of this Question saying Till we bring you some one good proofe out of the Scriptures that the Soules of the righteous before Christes comming were in Sheol or Hades you will rest in your opinion that by this only plaine place Christes Soule was in Hell We hope then when this proofe which you asko for against your opinion is shewed you will correct your opinion in this point Let it therefore bee considered I pray which the Psalmist also hath elswhere of this matter Sheol attributâ—â— the Soulâ— iust after Let vs interpret the Psalmes by the Psalmes First this we observe in them howe it is written “ Psa â—â— What man liveth and shall not see death Shall he deliver his soule from the hande of Sheol Heere now the Soule attributed to every man living must be properly taken as well as in the former place where you take it for Christs very Soul For e Pag. 1â— This rule must be helde †Much in one aâ—â— same Wâ— in one aâ—â— same maâ— and maâ— speach thoughout the Scriptures that we divert not froÌ„ the native and proper significations of the wordes but when the letter impugneth the grounds of Christian faith and charitie Otherwise we shall leave nothing sound sure in Gods word if we may avoid all things by figures that please not our humours So long then as the proper sense of the Scriptures may stand with the Analogie of faith and direction of charitie we offer violence to the word of God if we wrest it to a figurative vnderstanding Now then it is apparant that heere the soules of all meÌ„ living both good bad after death are appointed to Sheol For there is none whosoever that can possibly escape it saith the text Yet many good men there are then were who could did escape Hell Therefore in the Script Sheol and hades applied to departed soules is not always Hell but the CoÌ„dition or place aswell where the iust mens soules are after death as that where the daÌ„ned are Wherefore we hope that you wil keepe your word that is to acknowledge Sheol and Hades may be applyed to the Soules of iust and blessed men deceased And withall that Christs Soule after his death having Sheol applyed to it by the Psalmist who applyeth the very same also to all iust mens Soules in the worlde when they dy ought not therefore in any wise to be thought to have ben in Hell even because he was the iustest and holyest man that ever was Vnles some other scripture more plaine then this doe affirme it Which because there is vtterly none I say not one that doeth leane any thing towards such a sense therefore you ought not stifly to maintayne that Christes Soule was locally in Hell as hitherto you haue done But Austin a collecteth this opinion from this place in the Actes â—â—g 253. Oh then this point of faith is grouÌ„ded on Austin it is his collection not the text it self without him that serves your turne Certainly so it is But this theÌ„ agreeth not to your worthy protestations noted b before â—ag 28. 29. â—â—r pag 91 â— this becometh not such good wordes I beseech you be not you of them qui virtuteÌ„ verba putaÌ„t Then touching Austins authoritie â—â—fore pag â— c you know how you leave him when you think good regard not his d scant probable proofes coniecturall inclinations Finally â—â—r pa. 169 â— that heere Austin hath no better then scant probable proofes and meere coniectures we shall plainly declare God willing after we have shewed a generall consent and correspondence of all Authors for our sense of Sheol Hades which I hope presently you shall see But first you must note that we goe not about to prove Sheol Hades to be Heaven We never thought it neither need we so to thinke The more is your iniurie when you haue nothing to reprove yet with skoffes and floutes bitter reproches to disgrace me as you doe and that even for this your owne meere conceit Neither yet can your e witty reason prove â—â—g 146. that Limbus heereby can not be avoided Consider a word of like vse in Latin Defuncti signifying the Dead may be applyed generally to the Soules of men deceased Yet notwithstanding this I hope Limbus may be easily avoyded Also I pray are Defuncti none other but the Damned onely in Hell The blessed in Heaven may be likewise called Defuncti I suppose Howbeit not in respect of their being in Heaven Note but only in respect that they haue done with this life and are gone hence The word is properly generall signifying by it selfe neither the Blessed nor the Damned neither to be in Hell nor in Heaven Yet restrained by CircuÌ„stances such as they may be it signifyeth either Certainly so doth hades also Sheol All these the Latin the Greeke The propeâ—â—â— sense of Shâ—â— and Hades and the Hebrew wordes are indifferent and common in them selves signifying in deed no positive thing properly but a meere privation of this life and of a former visible being heere sometime And so it is that the Psalme saith Even the iust mens Soules and all must come to Hades Sheol Moreover thus in
effect they are all one with Thanatos Death but that Thanatos belongeth properly to Bodyes Hades Sheol sometimes to Bodyes sometime to Soules of Men indifferently Yea sometime these 2. are applyed though more rarely to other things also which are in this visible world namely wheÌ„ they com to Destruction and No being any more as anon we shall better vnderstande Now let vs proceed and shew further even by the Scriptures first that Sheol and Hades are as I say more then once vsed for the generall condition of death wherein even iust mens soules are held or the mansion of soules departed aswell good as bad Then afterward the common consent of others will availe the more That a Psalm 4â— Psalme which intreateth wholy of Death of the impossibility to escape it of the power which it hath over the wicked whose ioy and pompe is only in this world in that it cutteth of all their hopes it endeth their pleasure and marreth all their bewty I say in this Psalme where all expresse circumstances do shew that the Prophet speaketh of this death not of Hell yet David heere saith * verse 1â— notwithstanding God shall deliver my soule from the power of Sheol that is death or the state of death when hee shall reoeave mee most mightily So Tremelius turneth it noting heere Davids hope of the Resurrection which I think he hath well vnderstood in this place Otherwise David might heere comfort himselfe in this that hee knew God would save him alive from this common death not alwayes as you friuolously obiect but oftentimes yea alwayes till he should enioy the Kingdome which indeed God did for him when he was neere death not seldome and when his enemies the wicked were caught therewith Againe that b Psal 8â— Psalme sheweth it also where it is thus written My Soule is filled with sorrowes and my life draweth neere to Sheol By his life he meaneth his soule the proper cause and fountayne of life in him which also in the first parte of the sentence hee expresly named As the manner of phrase in the Psalmes is in the 2. parte of the sentence commonly to speake of the same things that are vttered in the former but varying the termes That life heere should signifie the body distinctly from the soule there is no such likelyhood nor reason Indeed I deny not but life may signifie heere the whole person of man As in these â—esaide Psal â— 48. 49 â— 10 16. al â—116 8. in â—â—y many â—aces of scripâ—â—e besides and so may c nephesh the soule also very wel and then Sheol and Hades signifie not peculiarly and distinctly the Grave which only is for the carcase but the condition of the Whole maÌ„ after he hath no being in this world In which regard chose what sense you will either that nephesh and chai shall in all these places of the Psalmes before handled signifie strictly the soul as very fitly it may or the whole person of man consisting both of a soule and of a living body contrary to which estate Sheol and Hades is very often taken g That is if it â—re not strictly â—â—d peculiarly â—â—e habitation â—sâ—y Souls yet â—â—s the condiâ—ur of the whole â—son that is â—â—â—h of Soul â—â—dy separaâ—â— by Death â—ob 30.23 and d peradventure so it is vnderstood heere in these places In which sense Sheol Hades are far from signifying hell yea or heaven either yea or only and meerely the Grave but it signifieth destruction from out of this world no-being here any more as afore time to the whole person that is both to the Soule and to the Body And thus Sheol and Hades Iob resembleth to a house or Habitation where he nameth it †Beth mâ—gned lecol chai the habitation after this world appointed for every person or if you will for all living things The same also Iob wisheth and desireth of God to himselfe that God would hide him Bisheol in this world of the deceased â—ob 14.13 would give him terme till his wrath was overpast In another place he comforteth himselfe thinking quickly to enioye it saying †Jf I have any hope Sheol or Hades â—ob 17.13 the world of the deceased shal be my habitation He ioyneth therevnto also particularly the grave but as touching Sheol seeng Iob speaketh of it as his continuall habitation till the worldes end it cannot be meant only of the Grave for his body which indured but a very short time neither had his flesh any being at all after it was turned to very earth and wormes He speaketh heere therefore also of his soules continuing habitatioÌ„ or mansion in another world Gen. 37.35 because they â—â—ch dy their â—â—ons do fall â—â—vne according to the Latin â—â—tase cadere â—â—idere occuÌ„â—â— to Dy. And in greatest reason this is that which Iaacob meaneth when he saith He will goe downe mourning to his sonne iâ— Sheol That is He will mourne till he dy for this he meaneth by * going downe heere speaking of death And then he hopeth to enioye the societie of his deare sonne in soule For his body hee thought was devoured and digested in the bellies of wilde beasts therefore he would goe to the soule of his sonne in Sheol Or els vnderstanding heere the dissolution passage of his Whole person he may meane partly his going downe to the graue as touching his body and yet also the enioying of the societie of his deare sonne in Sheol which surely as J said could not bee in body but in soule Thus Sheol heere hath respect to the changed estate of Iacobs whole person dissolved and not to one parte thereof only his body but to his soule also and it hath respect likewise to the estate of his dead sonnes soule where this loving Father hoped againe to haue society with him not any where els without which he could not be comforted Albeit in another place it seemes hee limiteth Sheol to the graue only but that we doe so vnderstand by reason of the Circumstances a Gen. 42. you will bring my Gray Head with sorrow to the Grave But againe to follow our purpose Good Hezekiah also looked for Sheol to be his habitation likewise after this life I said saith “ Isay 38. â—â— 11 12. he I shall goe to the gates of Sheol the Land of the dead I shall not see the Lord in the Land of the living I shall see Man no more among the inhabitaÌ„ts of the world My habitation or Mansion is translated and removed from me as a sheapheards tent c. This heere cannot be the Grave nor Hell which he describeth For he thought he should theÌ„ have dyed and thus his habitation he thought should haue ben removed and translated from him that is I take it his body should be remoued from his soule which was the mansion or habitation of his soule while he lived but now he should
do nor vnderstand in them any of their fancyes and errors which by their doctrine otherwise they refute nevertheles they may and do vnderstand the generall truth signified in them whatsoever the Heathens vsed by them to signifie and imply And thus is our worde in controversy Hades cleered But to cleere the rest also of those which b Pag. 36â— you obiect Sec we are to observe that the Apostles transfer the Heathens Civill words many times to their Ecclesiasticall vse namely keeping yet still the proportion of their former sense As in these Apostle Bishop Deacon Gospell Law Sinne Repenâ—ance Hope Conscience Concupisence c. Which change is small and easy sith the words have a iust proportion still togeather both in Civill and Ecclesiasticall vse Onely if any difference or oddes be it is expresly vttered in some part of the Apostles doctrine besides There is no such cause nor matter of difference to be found in Hades Third The Apostles do vse some wordes kat ' éxochen by an excellencie yet in no point altering the native vse or property of them â—â—â—a all the 〈◊〉 before â—â—â—med or â—â—â—t oâ— them 〈◊〉 â—e conâ—â—â—ed also â—â—â—er this â—â—â—e â—ag 403. a Thus Scripture is vsed commonly for the Word of God only Diábolos for the Divell although sometimes other writings are called also Scripture and other Accusers and slanderers Diaboloi But neither hath this consideration any place in Hades that in Scripture it should signifie chiefly Hell much lesse only Which thing b you avouch Lastly Som think the Apostles altered the worde Faith from the Passive sense of it importing Faithfulnes and honestie as the Heathens commonly vsed it to the Active sense which is True beliefe or Trust vsed in the Scriptures which you also obiect But I suppose the Apostles tooke this Active sense of the word Faith froÌ„ the Old Testament meerely translating the Hebrue into Greeke For I see not what difference at all there is betweene c Pistis â—â—â—om 1.17 â—â—â—bac 2.4 and d Emunah whereby the Iewes signified Faith to salvation Which is reason enough for this vse thereof in Greeke by the Apostles namely if it bee a Hebraisme though it bee not very suteable to the Heathens vse thereof The like I iudge of Elder Law Sinne c. But Hadès for Hell hath no like reason Further I think even the Heathens have vsed this word Faith sometime Actively as the Gospell vsually hath it likewise the Gospel abhorreth not altogeather the Passive vse of it for Faithfulnes Lastly if it were so that the Apostles did follow no other reason but meerely transferred that word from the Civill passive to the Ecclesiasticall active vse we say on necessity they might do it For having some Spirituall doctrine to deliver and the ordinary speach wanting some fit word for the same then they might yea of necessity they were forced to take some word neerest in nature and sense to their purpose so they might give to that word a peculiar Ecclesiasticall vse further then anciently it had But Hades for Hell hath no help by this reason they tooke the word Gehenna from the Hebrewes and vsed it properly for Hell Therefore they need not alter hades for that purpose for which they had another proper word It is manefest then that the Apostles stil kept the proportion of the sense in all their words translated from the common and vsuall speach of the Heathen so far as any reason of truth might be alike in both so they spake indeed still the tounge and language of the Nations and therefore Hades with the Apostles can not be properly Hell as even with Heathens also properly it was never I suppose yet you will say The Fathers take Hades for Hell I answered a Pa. 1 before how they sometime take it determinatly and strictly so they signifie Hell by it Somtime they take it largely generally according to the Ancient Heathens vse and so they signifie by it nothing but the generall state of Death pertayning alike both to good and bad deceased as I have declared Thus you get nothing by them albeit sometime theâ— restraine the worde Hades more then they ought to restraine it Heere also were place to have added somwhat for iustifying that I said The Fathers do alter the ancient true vse of som words both Greeke and Latin from whom in controversies we ought to appeale to their authentike vse in Scripture and Classicall authors But because b Pag. 3â— you send me about ChirotonÃa to another place I am content to examine what you have there to the contrary Which seeing it draweth me into further matter therevnto appertaining I will differre for this time Hitherto we have tryed the nature and vse of Hades and have found it to be not properly Hell as c Pag. 1â— 171. 40 you avouch No not when it is applyed to soules of men deceased And therefore also that it can not be so vnderstood in Act. 2.27 where it is applyed to Christs Soule after he was dead Which yet is the only place that you have to pretend How thâ—â— in Act. â— may siâ—â—â— and trâ—â—â— vndersâ—â—â— Now something more you bring for your purpose from the Circumstances of this Text which we must consider But first let vs simply and plainly vnderstaÌ„d the same according to our former true declaration of the nature and vse of Hades Where the text is Thou wilt not leaue my Soule in Hades or to Hades we may simply take Hades for the invisible state or place of the deceased And so supplying the defect of a word which must be vnderstood thus we may say eis ton topon or chôran hadou in the place or region of the invisible state or b Aithér dou Or before pâ—â—â— 173.17 World of the Deceased Otherwise we may take it simply for Deaths force strength and power supplying also the same words eis ton topon or ten chôran hadou in that place where the power and strength of Death prevaileth and holdeth the deceased Soules from their Bodyes This is the World of the Dead implying nothing ells but ap estate opposit to our Visible estate in this world Thus may hades be fuly taken sith I have largely proved before how Hades Thanatoâ— Death are in effect all one and may both be applyed even to iust mens Soules deceased but hades more easily naturally Last of all we may take hades heere by a Prosopopoea conceaving it to be as it were som Person of vnresistable power taking away withholding from hence al mens Souls departed Howbeit this power was controlled and loosed by God in Christes Resurrection And then we may construe it thus eis ten chóran topon or oikian Hadou in the place region or habitation of this mighty power Or eis to kratos exousian dynamin or epikratian tou Hadou to the strength power or dominion of this Destroyer of life Thus howsoever we take it though