would have people believe me in are in part that very words of the Prophets and holy men of God and so if I drove at that to make people believe those things I drove but at the making them believe the truth of the Scriptures in those sayings and by consequence George indeavoured to drive them from believing them For that there is not a just man upon earth that doth good and sinneth not and no man that sins not is not mine but Solomons by the spirit of truth I trow Eccles 7.20 1 Kings 8.46 and that no man is perfectly freed from sin in all respects in this life is evident both in Psal 143.2 and in that sicknesses diseases and mortality that came in by sin abides upon all men till death yea and the bodily death that came in by sin abides upon all till the resurrection and so long as any fruit of sin abides upon a man he is not perfectly in all respects freed from sin And to say as he doth that the asserting these things is the making way for my Fathers Kingdome which is upheld by sin as much as I could is evident blasphemy For God being my Father at least by creation as he after though erroniously saies the Disciples were taught so to call him their Father his kingdome is not upheld by sin and if he calls him the Devil he blasphemes or if he judge the Devil to be my Father as no doubt his charity leads him yet then he blasphemes the spirit of truth which breathed in the holy men of God while he makes the asserting their sayings a warring for the Devils kingdome that they be their sayings the places above quoted with Rom. 7.17 20 21 22 23. Jam. 3.2 1 John 1.8 10. and 2.1 2. make it evident See Reader how this man discovers his shame and falsehood in al his oppositions his intimations that we denyed him liberty to speak in evidence of his pretended truths is so false that the contrary namely that when he would have been reading and at other times he was called upon again and again to answer he would not for some time yea and sometime he had liberty or took it to talke so much that I could not have liberty to reply upon him and the calling out of the company to him to answer or else own himself proved a deceiver and perhaps sometimes laughing at his folly is that he calls the incivility towards him and clamoring of many at once against him And where he saies that many hearing him with sobernesse was as appeares a grief to me and probably some cause of my publishing of an imperfect relation of the discourse in print to render him and what he calls the truth odious and in my pride to make people believe I had got the victory I avouch in the presence of God that the people hearing him with sobernesse was no grief at all to me or any thing that I see as making against me in the people and if it appears so to him it 's because his eye sees by a false light and the spirit of truth guids him not therein I was very much rejoiced in the Lord to see his helpfulnesse afforded me and Geo. Whit. so made manifest to the people and the people so satisfied for which cause also I published as perfect a relation of the discourse of these points spoken to as possible I could and could I possibly have come by every word or fillable of it I was not afraid nor ashamed to make it publick knowing right well the more perfectly it had been published the more perfectly his folly had been made manifest So that if what I have published in print render him odious it is because his folly and deceit in the dispute was such as deserved it As for what he saies he shall make good against me in the strength of God it will appear to be but a deceived vapour in him by what I shall through Gods assistance say here to his two latter charges which he saies his Treatise makes good namely That my Ministry in which he falsly saies I contend for sin just as the Apostle John did in 1 Joh. 1.8 10. with 2.1 is Anti-Christian and both against the commands promise and works of God and leads to the making both the preaching and praying of Christ and the Saints ineffectual and that 2. I like a chollerick envious man against the truth of God and his people am a forger of lies a false accuser and slanderer and so one of the Dragons army c. By this making good or not making thou maist judge Reader whether the strength of God be with him to make good his former against me by dispute which he could challenge me to in publick either in market place Steeple-house or their meeting house in Lin namely 1. That I am out of the steps of the true Ministers and am in the practice of deceivers an hypocrite and no Minister of Christ and being a parish Priest am guilty of the Priests iniquity in many things against which I have declared And 2. That I uphold a dead formal worship like the world whereunto people are not called by the spirit of truth which is not the true worship and keep people from the life of God and my Ministry formal and corrupt Which his foolish challenge I shall not accept both because his folly and falshood in his boasts of strength to that may be sufficiently discovered in his failers of what he boasts he hath done in his Treatise as also because he therein laies a trap for me to get occation to reproach me for he knowes I sent him word that I should henceforth have no more to do with him but according to the Apostles counsel reject them now should I accept his challenge he and his party would reproach me as they did upon a lesse coloured occasion as a lyer and false Besides these being personal charges and the overflowings of their anger against me because foiled at the dispute and such things as these spoken so much as we thought needful in answer to his former book in which he spits such venemous stuff against me I shall not go about to plead my own cause but leave it to God and rather take good Hezekiahs course when Sennacherib railed upon him that would not have him answered again That he is far from making good his charges in the two other points of it spoken to as he saies in his treatise these things that follow in answer hereunto I hope will fully evince To my proofes for the Scriptures which he only sets down the quotations without saying any thing to them particularly that the Prophets Apostles and holy men of God even after they were Prophets Apostles and holy men came confessing themselves sinners and to have sin He saies I have not made it appear that the Quakers do not so for they own their confessing sin and they have confessed their sins to the Lord as
catching at and perverting expressions Again to our saying they reproached us for owning our selves part of the Nation guilty of sin with them He taxeth us For finding fault with the Teachers and people and yet now we are joyned with them and guilty of sin with them and that I joine my self with the blind watchmen and dumb dogs and then taxe us with hypocrisie and deceit for one while declaring against the Teachers and people of the Nation and another while to joine with them But marke Reader that I said not we joined our selves with them in their sinning but in confessing sins that is we consesse ours with theirs nor say we that we are guilty of all their sins but guilty of sin And will not his charges of us for this fall upon the Prophet Isaiah did not he one while inviegh against the watchmen and the people yea many times and yet another while joine in himself among them in confessing the Nations sins in Isa 59.10 11 12 13. when he said we grope for the wall like the blind and we grope as if we had no eyes and our transgressions are multiplyed before thee and our sins testifie against us Did Isaiah speak those things of himself and the Disciples as a distinct party from the body of the Nation or as joining in the Nation with themselves If as a distinct party would not George say then they were hypocrites for faulting others and being as bad themselves If as joining themselves in with the Nation were they not guilty of the same that George throwes upon us if we be therefore guilty as he saies Surely all that read these things may see herein G. W.'s weaknesse My charges of them denying Christ to have that body glorified in heaven in which he suffered is not disproved by my saying they granted the same body that suffered was glorified at Gods right hand because as elsewhere we have cleared it they meant equivocally in that saying and not of the personal body of Christ but to that and their denyal of the resurrection of mens bodys we have spoken fullyer in our answer to their book against us Nor will my saying they are persons of no judgement in these things save them from being guilty of indeavouring to subvert the faith about them seeing judgement in Scripture expression signifies right understanding as in Isa 42.14 and 59.8 and they that have no understanding to do good may be wise to do evil as the Prophet saies Jer. 4.22 To that of our Saviour Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect alledged by G. W. to proove that some men are without sin here I noted That men may in Scripture sense be said to be perfect that have sin in them Instancing in Job and Asa And 2. That exhortations to things prove not those things to be perfectly attained by any here nor doth the Scripture ever say Let not sin be in you c. The first of these George passes over which would he have defended himselfe to purpose he should not have done To the 2. he saies To what end or effect then was his exhortation What must men be under the commands after death which they had in their life time and not till then fulfill them here 's darkeness indeed saith he made manifest and the command put a far off To that consider are all commands to no end and effect that are not fulfilled by them to whom they are given Sure then many commands given of God must be concluded to be so for how many commands of his are broken by men not fulfilled of them Neh. 9.29 Jer. 32.23 Shall we say therefore they were to no end or effect Sure his end is that we should presse in his strength after what is commanded to our ability knowing that he accepts through Christ our endeavour though we attain not here its perfection and that where we are short we acknowledge it and in the sense of it being humbled in our selves give glory to God in and for Christ in whom we are and by whom we shall be made perfect as Paul said of himselfe to will was present with him even to will all that the commandment requires but how to perform it he found not yet was not the commandment without end or effect in as much as in the inner man he delighted in it and groaned for the day of perfect liberty when there should be no let to do it perfectly and thanked God in Christ Jesus in whom he being perfect was not under condemnation for what he found not as for being under commands after death I say men shall fulfill commandments after death given in this life for must not the spirits of just men love God after the bodily death and in the resurrection yea shal they not then love him with all their heart more perfectly than now they do when they more perfectly injoy him And yet they are commanded now to love him So that the darknesse appears in G. W. To the other that the Scripture saies not any where Let not sin be in you He saies Is it not all one to say be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect or wash you make yee clean keep Gods commandment love and serve him with all the heart which must be fulfilled then what part of man must be a subject for sin to dwell in while he lives here To the first of these the saying Be ye perfect c. Is not the saying Let not sin be in you Those words are not these no more necessarily included in them than Let no weaknesse infirmity or mortality be in you or no ignorance of any thing in heaven or earth seeing God is as perfectly free from them as from sin but the sayings of Scripture are to be interpreted according to their scope which there appears to be perfect in testifying or extending love to enemies as well as friends as God doth As God is so perfect in charity as to love and do good to the evil and good so would Christ have his disciples in an answerable sense which how G. W. and the Quakers faile in their bitternesse and reproaches sufficiently evidence Nor is it all one to say Wash you make you clean and let no sin be in you for these phrases alluding to the washings under the Law as it was not one and the same there to say Wash you from some uncleannesse defiling the flesh and let no such unclean or defiling humor as of blood or other matter be in your bodies for the cleanest body had such humors in it as issuing out upon it would defile it So neither is it all one to say Wash you from your sins and defilements which is done in confessing and denying them and let no sin be in you the being of sin in men being not imputed were not consented to or sided with no more than the being of unclean humors within the body were accounted to men when they did
Apostle condescended to the Romans to several states which be passed through and which was below his own when he writ to them Which is not to the purpose For when he writes to the Romans of the states he had passed through he writes of them as things past not as present as Rom. 5.10 When we were enemies he reconsiled us he saies not we are yet enemies so Chap. 7.9 I was alive without the Law but when the Law came sin revived and I dyed and so in 1 Tim. 1.13 Who was before a blasphemer and a Persecutor and injurious we never find him when he was an Apostle to say I am a blasphemer c. But of sin being in him he writes in the present time I know that in me that is in my flesh there dwells no good thing and I am carnal sold under sin not I sell my self to sin as Ahab but am sold as by an other with reference to what was done to him in Adam and yet remained upon him as to the flesh and that he spake of himself too and not of others excluding himself is evident ver 25. So then I my selfe marke he saies I my self with my mind serve he saies not did serve the Law of God but with my flesh the Law of sin Should we say we our selves do what we only mean others do he and his fellowes would call us lyers and yet he fears not to fasten such an imputation in effect upon the Apostles one after another He would confirme his former saying from Rom. 6.19 which is to as little purpose as if he had quoted Gen. 1.1 For the Apostle there speaks nothing of himself or of any state that he saies he was then in as mentioning his own person but speaking of spiritual things under earthly metaphors as of Masters and Servants and freedom from servitude He saies I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmitie of your flesh But is this the manner of men to speak untruths of them selves as to say they are in that state they are not to make their speech more understandable or doth the Apostle speak any thing sounding to that sense there He saies not there I yeeld my members servants to uncleannesse but as ye have in time past yielded your members servants to uncleannesse c. so yeeld your members now servants of righteousnesse Was it not as understandable for the Apostle to have said I did sometime find a Law in my members but now I have got rid of it and there is no sin in me as if it had been so as to say I do see a law in my members yea might not this more encourage them to sin than that if it be as G. W. often casts upon us a pleading for sin to confess that sin is in the Saints It clearly appears in all this still that G.W. is much out of the way and the truth is neither in nor with him for where it could distinguish between Paul as after the flesh and as after the spirit in the same time in his flesh in bondage and in his mind free and waiting for the deliverance of his body too in due time both from sins and sufferings But how can he distinguish such things that could not distinguish things nearer hand But whereas I said I was able in the strength of God to worry such Foxes as he that is to bassle and confound them as I also actually was helpt to do yet because I say after that people see I was weary and spent he vapors as if I was not therefore in the strength of God forgeting that of the Apostle that at the same time in different respects a man may be strong and weak both when I am weak then am I strong and I was among you in weakenesse yet my speech was in the demonstration of the spirit and power 1 Cor 2.3 4. Surely when I said I was able to worry him in the strength of the Lord I did not say or signifie nor could any of the people I suppose so apprehend me that I was able to beat him at handicuffs or had stronger Lungs then he but that I was able by the power of the truth to make manifest his deceits which also God gave me bodyly strength to do so as to the satisfaction of the indifferent auditory and had I needed more to that I question not but he would have given it me He that cannot distinguish spiritual strength from bodily how should he distinguish between Pauls state after the spirit and his state at the same time after the flesh As a man in the flesh warring yet against sin and wishing for deliverance for that 's the force of that phrase who will deliver as Deut. 5.29 according to the Hebrew who will give them an heart to fear me argues not that the Lord was ignorant or doubted who would but an earnest desire that they had such an heart but in the same time he thanked God by Jesus Christ Rom. 7.24 25. and so Paul was free in his spirit and more than a conqueror in all his sufferings though Christ who dwelt in his heart by faith though I never read what G. W. intimates that Christ was in Pauls flesh though therein and therethrough he might manifest his power and vertues but us to his body that was not above prison and weaknesse and death even so neither was his flesh free from sin being in it though his spirit was set free and above it Paul saith he made himselfe a servant to all that he might gain the more and became a Jew to the Jew and weak to the weak True in his use of indifferent things such as meats drinks wages c. But he became not a Jew to the Jew in not believing or confessing Jesus to be the Christ and though to those that being weak in the Faith doubted of their liberty to some such outward things as before mentioned he also abstained from the use of his freedome to them not telling them of his liberty lest he should offend them but in those things having his faith to himselfe as if he also was weake as he advises others Rom. 14.22 1 Cor. 10.28 29. Yet it 's evident that was not the case here For to what purpose should he pretend in some places to be in such states in other places of the same Epistle to the same people express himself to be far above such states as G.W. saies he did in saying he was at peace with God c. So that these appear as indeed they are silly shifts of G. W. to hide the nakednesse of his assertion and corruption of his judgement but they will not do it As for his personal accusations of us as uncivil and bawling and wrangling and desiring to tie him up to Yea and Nay they are vain and false accusations and so I shall passe them As also his after insinuations of rantings and loves amongst us and of a woman
set up for a Teacher by us when of any woman set up to teach by us I know none who turned Ranters is known so be some of their lusts c. as also his charging me as speaking of G. Rose as a distracted man and yet bringing his words against them when as I said but that the people heard him begin at a distance like a kind of distracted man to call out not that I counted him a distracted man these personal and untrue reflections I say I passe as impertinencies And as for his saying We would not suffer him to read in our Book and yet we read out of theirs and his vain and false insinuations therefrom the ridiculousnesse thereof is sufficiently cleared in the relation of our discourse though he take no more notice of it than if no such thing had been mentioned His asking questions when he should have answered were meer diviations from our businesse and yet I know of none that I answered not then except that what death came in by sin which he sought in subtilty as I conceived to put me upon that he might wind out from the thing that puzled him As for his feeling the power of God over us He might feel it over us indeed to protect us and inable us to baffle him for which we blesse the Lord but otherwise it appeared not with him in his answers nor yet appeareth with him in what he hath written in his own vindication He saies The Apostles wept with them that wept and waite for the Redemption of the body where it was not redeemed as he travelled for the Gallatians c. Which are nothing to the purpose for a man may weep with those that weep without saying falsly that he is exercised with the same trials in himselfe and of his own as others weep under Cannot I weep with such as weep for the absence of Gods spirit from them or for the losse of some neer relation unlesse I say I am in the same condition with them Nay if I say it s so with me as with them then do I not shew such charity to them for then it may rather be judged that I weep for my own afflictions than with them for theirs one saying of the Apostle any where that his body was already redeemed from that bondage the redemption of it from which he there saies he waited for were more then and hundred such shifts his proofs alleadged in our discourse from Rom. 8.2 2 Cor. 13.8 He was then so answered to and beaten from that he hath here passed them over as not able to relieve him For the Apostles travelling for the Galatians as I remember in the dispute he disclaimed it then for making for his purpose when T. M. was answering him to it thinking he had had some reference to it in what he spake about Pauls travelling and that it s not to his purpose is evident because the Apostle saies not there as in the other place of the Romans that he waited or travelled for the redemption of his own body no nor for the redemption of their bodies but till Christ was formed in them not coupling in himselfe together with them as condescending in such a manner to their states Setting down two or three of my questions together without his answer to them he then taxes me for omitting the word bondage in speaking of the redemption of the body which word he saies he used a great matter is it not when as the very word redemption implies some bondage to be redeemed from nor doth the Apostle use the word Bondage in speaking of the redemption of their body the creatures groaning to be delivered and the Saints waiting for the redemption of the body we before shewed at the dispute also to be distinct things and not the same He saies here again That the Saints had that redemption of the body from the bondage of corruption when the creatures were delivered into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God before their decease But he proves it not nor could do at the dispute 't is proofs we looke for and not bare assertions upon his own authority which without proof from Scriptures weighs with us nothing The Scripture neither saies that the creatures had the deliverance into the liberty of the Sons of God nor that the Saints had the redemption of their body before their decease but speaks of both as things future and therefore groaned and waited for see else Rom. 8.19 20 21 22 23. And indeed they could not be before those Saints deceased for evident it is that the Apostle ver 17.18 speaks about their sufferings with Christ and reigning with Christ and speaks of the sufferings with him as first and the Reigne as a thing afterward the sufferings are of this present time or life but the glory is to be after revealed and therefore spoken of as in the future to this present time shall be revealed in or upon us and about that glory and revelation of it and the redemption of the body from the sufferings that go before it speaks ver 19 20 21 22 23. Now seeing the glory could not be revealed nor the redemption of the body from the sufferings be before the sufferings be accomplished and their sufferings even the sufferings of the present time were to bodily Death therefore it followes that the redemption of the body from the bondage it was under in and by those sufferings could not be till after their decease except the Redemption be before the bondage and the glory thereof before the sufferings contrary to the Apostles order in speaking of them which one consideration to those that can and will see may suffice to shew that it 's no error or absurdity in me as G. W. after reckons it to say that the corruption which Paul waitted and groaned for the Redemption of his body from is the corruption of mortality in part though he hath belyed me by his addition in saying as part of my assertion in which the body is in death when it is in corruption for I had no such non-sensical expression That the Apostles waited for the Redemption of the body from all the bondage and misery that the sufferings of this time or life could bring it to and so from bondage to death and grave also and in that hope and expectation yeilded up their bodies to sufferings for Christs sake is evident in the Scriptures It was the hope of the Resurrection even of that resurrection of the dead in which what is sown in Corruption is raised in Incorruption that led them into Jeoperdies to fight with Beasts after the manner of men 1 Cor. 15.30 32 42 53. that made them speak though death therethrough wrought in them 2 Cor. 4.12 13 14. Oh how wicked and corrupt concerning the faith are these men that deride the looking for and hope of that Redemption of the body because a thing so many hundreds of yeares off as
dost thou rather believe all those things to be only Allegorically spoken 4. And if thou dost believe that that Jesus the very Christ was indeed a real personal man whether dost thou believe that he really and verily and in a real and very body of flesh dyed and rose in the same real and very body the third day from the dead and therein after 40 daies conversing by times with his disciples ascended or was taken up into heaven and be those things also only figuratively to be taken 5. And whether dost thou believe that the sufferings or dyings of that man in any such real body of flesh and his rising again in the same body and ascending is truly availeable to the taking away or procuring pardon for any mans sin and obtaining blessing and salvation for men or dost thou thy self believe to be saved from thy sin and from destruction by vertue thereof yea or nay 6. Whether dost thou indeed believe that there are any Angels or created spirits distinct from men and what is in men and in other visible creatures yea or nay 7. And if neither the bodies of men that die and go to the grave shall ever be raised out of their graves to a sensible life again nor as Geo. Whitehead implies in some questions sent us the souls of the wicked after death shall come out of Hell again to receive any further judgement Whatof the wicked shall be raised up again after their bodily death and judged to eternal punishment as John 5.29 Mat. 25.46 Is it any thing or nothing and if any thing What is it 8. Doth the soul of the wicked at or after the bodily death go to any hell in which they sustain or feel any torment and if so what is the hell they go to and are tormented in I challenge thee to return me if thon darest a plain and direct answer to these queries according to the very truth and belief of thy heart not giving revilings instead of answers but observing 1 Pet. 3.15 John Horne This was sent him April 19. to which I have as yet received no answer from him this fourteenth of May so that I hope his mouth is stopt with them However for any plain positive and sober answer John Horne Richard Hubberthornes Letter in answer to my Queries is thus London 6th day 4th Mon. 1660. John Horne I Have received a paper of Queries from thee by which it is easily known to be thine by thy preface of lies which is thy usual and accustomed manner and marke of the beast in all thy papers thou saiest I am guilty of seven or eight falshoods but dost not mention any of them neither dost answer my paper which proves to the contrary So thou being so often reproved and yet hardens thy heart against it so if thou wilt be filthy thou maist be filthy still and if thou wilt be unconvinced when the truth hath been so plainly and often declared unto thee thou mayst be wicked still Answ As unto thy first query I can clear my self from being a deceiver or false Teacher in all things which I have spoken and can also prove thee to be a false accuser in saying that I said published that Christs coming in the flesh was but a figure which thing I never said nor published and so thy query is grounded upon a lye But those that did say and publish that falshood of me was thy brethren the hirelings and deceivers at Newcastle upon Tyne and so thou takes their lies to be a strength unto thy own And as for the believing Samaritans they did know by the spirit of truth that Jesus of Nazareth as then come in the flesh was indeed the Saviour of the world and Paul was a true Apostle when he proved that Jesus was the very Christ as Acts 9.22 And that which Christ himselfe said in the first of John 4. and 2. was true but what is all that unto thee to ground thy lye upon as above mentioned Answ As for thy second query calling George Whitehead a silly deceiver for justifying of my saying in his answer to Cambridge queries What G. Whitehead said in that answer to Cambridge Queries was truth and was a question put forth unto them which neither they nor thou hast answered which Query was this Could Christ have been said to have been transfigured if his coming in the flesh had not been a figure or example till his glory was revealed hast thou not read that he was the expresse figure of his Fathers substance instead of which it is translated he is the expresse image c. And if thou wilt prove him a deceiver first deny what he hath said or that it is so written which if thou do affirme thou goest but about to turne the truth of God into a lye and if thou do confesse thou ownes what G. Whitehead hath said and so not prove him a deceiver and as for thy reason to contradict it which is that the Apostles and believers were but forms of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.2 In this thou hast appeared very ignorant void of reason and true comparison for the Apostles and believers were neither in the power nor form of godly men before the renewing of their minds but were children of wrath and were in the form and power of wicked men Answ Againe Thy third Query is grounded upon the same lye with the first if Christs coming in the flesh be but a figure which was never spoken by me nor any of us but if we should say that Christ was an example or was the expresse figure of the Fathers substance yet thereby we do not say that Christs coming in the flesh is but a figure And as for my belief of Jesus he was real man and had a real body prepared for him and in it both soul and spirit power and life which was immortal and Eternal in which body was real flesh and blood and was born of the Virgine according to the Scripture Answ As to the fourth Query that which thou queriest of me thou dost not believe thy selfe that Christ in that very body of flesh and blood and bone in which he suffered did arise again but thou saist with flesh and bone without blood he is in heaven so then not with that real and very body born of the Virgine which thou saist is real flesh and blood and so according to thy own writings not the same But we do believe that in the very same real body in which he after his resurrection did converse with his Disciples is ascended into heaven Answ To thy fifth Query I say That the suffering and dying of that man Jesus and his ascending into heaven is truly available unto those which do receive him by which their sins are taken away and they saved from destruction but those that do not receive him but reject him his light and spirit his suffering dying and rising
again and ascending is not available to the taking away or procuring pardon for their sins for by their rejection of him to teach and lead them into all truth they make his blood and all his works unto them as of none effect To thy sixth Query wherein thou asks whether I do believe there are any Angels or created spirits distinct from men and from what is in man and other visible creatures Answ Whether wouldest thou have any to believe above what is written or where dost thou read that there is any created Angels or created spirits distinct from God which is in man and from all other visible creatures if thou canst shew me any such Angel or created spirit which is distinct both from him which did create it and from all other things created then thou shewest some ground for such a faith but the Scripture is not a rule for any such faith neither doth it speak any such thing and herein thou wouldest appear wise or manifest thy self a fool above what is written and not as one that would be instructed though thou be ignorant Answ To the seventh Query That which shall rise again after death out of the graves is the Seeds and each Seed with its own body for there are two seeds and two bodies which shall arise the one into Everlasting life the other into condemnation Answ To the eighth Query The Souls of the wicked at death go to a Hell where torment is felt which is the eternal wrath of God the just recompence of reward to all hypocrites hirelings and deceivers who have not only refused to receive the truth in the love of it but have also set themselves in enmity against it and this shalt thou also know hereafter better than thou dost now and here is an answer returned unto thee without railing according to 1 Pet. 3.15 Richard Hubberthorne The Reply to Richard Hubberthornes Answer THough there is no end of controversing with evil spirits nor the answers sent by R. Hubberthorne need no Reply the very comparing them with the questions they relate to being a sufficient discovery of Richards erroneousnesse in them to those that are intelligent yet for the sakes of some weaker ones and to stop the mouths of the deceived I shall note his falshoods and deceits therein 1. His falshoods as 1. It 's false That I had in my paper a Preface of lies My Preface was thus Richard Hubberthorne I once received a letter from thee and I gave thee an answer to it in which I noted thee guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods thou didst return me an answer to it but didst neither therein confesse thy evils nor disprove them so that I might slight thee as a proved lyer In that answer I remember I took notice of some corrupt passages about the Resurrection of Christ by which I am satisfied in part that thou art out of the truth yet because thou shouldest not think nor thy party vapor as one of them yester night began to suggest that I am afraid to answer thee 〈◊〉 Thou having not multiplyed thy questions to very many I shall be willing for this once to returne thee an answer to them provided that thou wilt plainly and nakedly answer me in the like number propounded by me to thee and when thou sendest thy answers to them to me thou shalt God willing have mine to thine returned by me this was what he calls my preface of the truth of which in every particular I call God to witnesse between us 2. It 's false that it 's my usual and accustomed manner and the marke of the beast in all my papers to make prefaces of lies a thing said of him without proof 3. It 's false that I said he is guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods for my words were not so but that in his former letter which was some years since sent me I noted him guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods that he is guilty now of them and repented none of them since I affirmed not 4. It 's false that his paper proves to the contrary for neither is his paper in being and so now proves nothing nor did it when in being take notice of those falshoods that I charg'd him with so as to disprove them 5. It 's false that I brought as a reason to contradict G. Whitehead's indeavoured proof that the Apostles and believers were but forms of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.2 for that was not my reason nor my assertion but by saying was my way of question Might it not as well by the same reason be avouched that the Apostles were but formes of men or of Godly men because transformed into the renewing of their minds 6. It 's false that in that saying of mine I appeared very ignorant void of reason true comparison for I appeal to all intelligent men whether the word transformed applyed to the believers signifies not every jot as much that they were before or then also but forms as that the word transfigured applyed to Christ proves that he was or his coming in the flesh a figure or but a figure Besides that he left out part of my saying for I said forms of men or of godly men 7. False it is too that the Apostles or believers before that transforming of them in the renewing of their minds mentioned and exhorted to were neither in the forme nor power of godly men but were children of wrath and in the power and form of wicked men for when the Romans were exhorted to be transformed in the renewing of their minds which as it was a thing but exhorted to they had not as then for exhortations respect things things yet to be done when such exhortations are given they those Romans were believers and Saints and in part renewed as appears in Rom. 1.7 8 12. 8. It 's a grosse falshood that he saies in his answer to Qu. 4. that I do nor believe myself what I query therein of him and as 9. False too that he charges me with querying whether Christ in that very body of flesh blood and bone in which he suffered did arise again My words were not so but whether in a real and very body of flesh he dyed and rose in the same real and very body the third day 10. False it is again that he saies I say with flesh and bone without blood he is in heaven for I have no such saying nor have so determined of it 11. False it is too that he in his next words implies that if he be not in heaven with flesh blood and bones then not with that real and very body born of the Virgine for he was laid into the Sepulchre in that very body born of the Virgin and not with another when as yet his blood was before shed out of that body the body and blood are spoken of as distinct things and his body was his body and the same body in which the