cries up one while and down another the self and the same thing And are not Scriptures external means and so granted by you to be useless and how then are they means of perfection if they be not useful or doe you mean something not external and so intitle a false thing Scripture But I fear your Ministry is rather misery then mercy for if you had receiv'd the mercy that Paul had you would also renounce the hidden things of dishonesty as Paul did not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully as you do And if you look a little further into the very same chapter of Paul to the Rom. you shall find him make it a matter not only of difficulty but also of impossibility that any should believe without hearing or hear without a Preacher by whom Christ is preached even by them that bring the word of God whose feet are beautiful And this is the word nigh us even at our doors not leaving us to travel to Jerusalem as of old to hear the word of the Lord which now is nigh to us though he be in heaven and we on earth by faith in him But if that that light in every individual man and woman be the sure word of Prophesie is there then a Prophetick light in all if so what doth it prophesie of life and righteousnesse for sinners in a Mediator or of death for disobedience and if this be the light that shines in a dark place what is the day-star and the Sun of righteousnesse for though the Apostle hath said that all may prophecy one by one yet hath he said again are all Prophets no but I wish the Lords people were all such and that Preaching is powerful I believe though you once denied it and I now see truth is no truth till it serve your turn And for every thing that you adde further we know it without your teaching as that every man which comes into the world of nature Christ as God enlightens with the light of nature as reason sense and the like and that he is the Saviour of the world Qu. 5. And if that the external means be useless to what end were those most sacred gifts bestowed upon men Eph. 4. 10 11 12. And how the end and intent for which they were given became void Answ. 5. The end of those gifts was for perfecting the Saints and bringing all into one faith unto a perfect man which they that teach that none can be perfect by those gifts while they live do set up a faith in people contrary to the end of those gifts and by setting up external things in stead of these spiritual gifts have you lost the gifts and have made them void and so are become enemies to the end and intent of them in others who have them and believe the end of them And thus the end and intent for which they were given are become void to you Eph. 4. 10 11 12. Rep. 5. Here also you abuse my intentions wrest my meaning as you doe the Scripture unto your owne will which we are not to query what for that I know as well as you can tell me if not better but if external means were useless and so consequently these gifts how became their end void for which they were given so that you answer not at all to the question but at confused randum and stuffe up lines with lyes First that to teach that none can be perfect in this life by these gifts is to set up a false faith produce a president of one person in all the Scripture that ever was perfect by any meanes whatsoever except Christ if you can or else yeild your self a lyar Secondly that by setting up external things for those spiritual I have made them void which is another lye and that two-fold First prove that ever I set up external things in stead of spiritual things if you can but have not you and your Ghostly Father the Pope done it in setting up carnal dictates of your own brains for that of the spirit of God Secondly that I have made them void testifie this if thou canst O subtil deceiver Thirdly that I am become an enemy to the end of these gifts in others I declare in the presence of God I honour though you oppose them wheresoever they be which is backed by a fourth lye that the end and intent of them is become void to me when my end is is not yet come but how soon it may God knowes but this I can testifie the fruits of those gifts have I reaped in my measure and by them in others have been both established and instructed in the truth and so I can witnesse the effects though not the end of them as yet But what means Paul by the spirits of just men made perfect in heaven if they were perfect before on earth and whether is Paul or you a lyar herein Qu. 6. If natural light be sufficient without the help of the means what then is become of the work of grace Eph. 2. 5 8. Rom. 11. 6. and of the growth of faith Luke 17. 5. Mark 9. 24. The practical use of Ordinances 1 Cor. 11. 2 23 24. As Baptism Matth. 8. 9. The Lords Supper Reading 1 Tim. 4. 13. Preaching Matth. 28. 20. and several other places Prayer 1 Thess. 5. 17. Rom. 12. 12 Communion of Saints in publique Assemblies Heb 10. 25. Answ. 6. The light of Christ is the gift of the grace of God which brings salvation which teaches to deny ungodliness and worldly lufts and to live soberly righteously and godly in this present world Tit. 2. 11 12. And with this light is the work of grace seen but thou that callest this natural light or wouldst make people believe it is not sufficient must needs be ignorant of that spirit whereby that work of grace and growth of faith prayer and communion of Saints Supper and Ordinances is known for without faith in the light of Christ these are not known nor accepted though dark natural imaginations may make an imitation from them in the letter 1 Cor. 2. 14. And thus are the works of grace become to all that deny the light and spirit of Christ within and take up a tradition from the letter without sensual having not the spirit Jude 19. Reply 6. O deceitful sophistry Is this an answering or a baffling Is it a satisfactory resolve when I asked you what was become of the work of grace faith the growth of Faith which is by the natural use of ordinances c. all which we own as did the Apostles though you deny most if not all of them when you wave it and proceed contrary to request to declare though but shallowly what the work of grace is how sin and how the rest are known all which is impertinent to the thing required and therefore it being only a titular answer it scarce deserves a reply so that it resteth as at
congruant to Antichrist then the true Messias And as no natural minde that either denies the true light or sets up a new light in its stead cannot apprehend these things so neither can they in that state distinguish between the spirit of Christ and that of Antichrist And this inded is the reason why you and your Society are so deluded and take that for the true Messias which is rather something crying crying Loe here and loe there is Christ in you which is onely the spirit of delusion and the rather I beleeve it because it so much opposeth Christ Jesus the true Messias in his Institutions And for what you adde further the Text I have cleared elsewhere already Qu. 14. Whether the soul of man be mortal or immortal if mortal for what then did Chr. Jesus suffer to purchase eternal glory And what profiteth holiness in life If immortal where then shall it abide after death since you say there is noheaven nor hell but in a mans conscience Answ. The first part of this Quere I answer the soul is immortal but the latter part being made up of a lye I returne it back into thy Fathers bottle from whence it came till thou hast prov'd that ever I said there is no Heaven nor Hell but in a mans Conscience Reply 14. Since it is usual with thee O secret deceit to speak that in one breath which thou wilt deny in another I wonder the lesse to see you stil uphold your lying practice else you might remember the superscription of my Queries were thus For the Speakers plurully not for you their Speaker singularly of that Society called Quakers neither did I know who was to speak at that time when I brought them with me whether you or another yet resolved to deliver them to him I should there finde when probability gave me good reason to expect Hoberthorn rather then your self to exercise there at that time because he was there the Lords day then last past and I think not before and then durst not own his own name and practices And though I confesse I cannot prove it against you in particular though perhaps others may yet is it commonly known to be the opinion of the Quaking Faction and so of them to whom my Queries were directed and therefore you here lay under the guilt of a two fold lye First in denying that which is truth to wit that it is not the doctrine of your Fraternity that there is neither heaven nor hell but in a mans conscience pure Familists Secondly in giving me the lye when I spoke the truth but I see you bear in minde your old profession your bottle and so your plow though you have now changed it for a lesse laborious yet diabolical employment somention of Heresie Qu. 15. If you are perfectly free from sinne as you assert you are what then is the sting of death or are you in the flesh immortal on earth Answ. The former part of this Query I returne thee back with the latter part of thy foregoing being both of one root but to the latter part I answer where the new birth is witnessed which is not of corruptible seed but incorruptible partakers of the Divine Nature the life of Christ made manifest in mortal flesh and where life and immortality is brought to light there the sting of death is seen to be abolisht on earth but this Cain's generation knows not where death reignes and therefore would murder such as are translated from death to life Reply 15. Now O incomparable hypocritical lyar let us try the contest whether you or I in this be the lyar nay let thy own writings decide the controversie which thus asse rts expressely them who say they have faith and yet their life is not the life of Christ and say they cannot be saved from their sinnes in this world but in part Them and their Faith we deny and as I told you in publick dispute so say I now againe if this be not perfect perfection what is or was the life of Christ imperfect And is not perfect purity from sinne perfect perfection in righteousnesse But you then reply'd though I denyed it in others said you yet thou liest plaine English to say I own it in my selfe but if it be not hypocrisie to disown that in another to wit imperfection if thou thy selfe are not perfect and is not this the Character Paul gives of a false Prophet Teaching lies saith he in hypocrisie But let us see if you lye not here againe for you further adde in the same page speaking of that light in every man this light we beleeve and follow observe that and by this light are led out of all the wayes works and worships of this dark world and if this be not perfect perfection then is light darknesse so that it is proved not onely to be taught and upheld by your society which had been sufficient but also by you in particular so that here you lie under the guilt of a double lye againe as before and that others of your Society have taught and upheld the same I need not stand to repeat it being so clearly proved against you and Hoberthorn affirmed the same the Lords day before I delivered my Queries in Now my Querie being thus justified it rests wholly unanswered in the least and therefore your pretended answer might be justly cast by without any further reply but out of charity take this as an almes not a debt that the former part of my last Query and the latter part of this are both of one root I acknowledge to wit the false doctrines of your spirit which how infallible soever is a lying one And here you againe abuse the Text for that incorruption is not to be put on till this corruption shall be put off by a dissolution of the body till when the sting of death remaines which is sinne but then when by a natural death as due for the disobedience of the first Adam we shall rise againe to incorruption and life everlasting as due for the meritorious obedience of the second and when the last enemy death shall be destroyed then O Death where is thy sting and O Grave where is thy victory but not before and therefore all that you seem to heap up as a mountaine is nothing pertinent to the thing required for if the sting of death were wholly abolished then death could have no power on us and this were terestrial and present immortality the enjoyment whereof is not till having put off this corruptible by death we shall have put on incorruption which is not earthly as you pretend to say it is in this life but heavenly and in another so that you know neither how nor where death reignes nor where or when it reignes not and though I question not but you have Cain's malice yet blessed be God if you had also his might you could not so far reach as to murder them
till this upstart Faction spread it selfe abroad like an infectious cloud for if in all this time there were no Church then could Christ be no Head without a body nor no Husband without a Spouse nor a Saviour without a people saved Answ. All formes differing from the light of Christ are in Babylon darknesse and distraction and the true Church is in God 1 Thess. 1. 1. Such onely are out of Babylon who are gathered out of the world by the spiritual light of Christ and there it hath been ever since his passion and he hath never been without though but in a small number which he hath saved which the world hated and scornfully miscall'd and into Prisons and corners have they been driven all this time of the man of Sinne and his Papal Priesthood but now he is come who is spreading his truth and multiplying his seed as a cloud to the Egyptians wherefore the Heathen rage exceedingly But it seems by the Query that thou ownest the Church all along since the Apostles to have been in the multitude of the Popish Priests rather then in the Martyrs seeing thou speakest so scornfully of a small number to be the Church of Christ who are so contemptible which the Church ever was and so it is at this day Luke 12. 32. Mat. 7. 14. Mat. 20. 16. Reply 9 10. Now I beleeve you speak truth as that all Formes differing from Christ and so yours among the rest are of Babylon and under the destruction thereof not but that there may be difference in circumstance and yet a concurrence in substance as there was in the Primitive times even amongst the very chiefe of the Apostles and though there be some difference in part of opinion yet may those so different be Christians still but not so if like you they erre in the main And what you tel me here is nothing but what I knew before ever I heard of you and is nothing to the thing required at all for we know and are sure that there now is and ever hath been a Church on earth as also was that of the Thessalonians as well as other Churches which is evidently declared in many places And what I queried was concerning a visible Church not of an in visible Church of which you speak nothing at all and in that you grant that Christ had ever a Church since his passion you also grant your selves to be none of his Church you being never heard of until of late years unless in the days of holy Moses but if you follow their wayes be careful of their end And for what you further adde it is nothing but of words without proofe and the Pope calls them that dye for the testimony of his Apostacy Martyrs which are rather malefactors and for them who are Martyrs indeed they dyed for the testimony of that Religion Doctrine and Ordinances which we professe and you now oppose and like the Heathen rage exceedingly against the Ministers and professors thereof who are so contemptible in your eyes and others of your society as to be railed against with the unchristianlike termes of dumb dogs serpents sons of perdition instruments and children of the Devil and the like and if this be the language of the spirit of God what then is the speech of Satan Qu. 11. Whether you own the Resurrection of the body after death if not of what doth and shall Christs Kingdome consist for he can be no King without his subjects Answ. I say yea the Resurrection I own according to the Scriptures Rep. 11. This is no satisfactory Answer in general unless you do descend unto particulars for I know not whether you doe mean according to the sense you wrest it unto and so by such subtilty smother perhaps heresie in privacy for some of your Fraternity have affirmed to me that there is no other Resurrection spoken of in Scripture but in this life as from the death of the first Adams fin unto the life of the second Adams righteousnesse contrary to the true me aning and so not according to the Scriptures which usually speaks of a resurrection from the dead after a dissolution of the body therefore speak out your meaning plainly Qu. 12. Whether you acknowledge the Trinity of the persons in the Godhead the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost one substance but three in subsistence or manner of beings Answ. For the word Trinity thou mayst send it to Rome from whence it came but God the Father the Sonne and the Holy Ghost and that these three are one I know and acknowledge according to the Scriptures 1 John 5. 7. Reply 12. Now O subtil Deceiver yet simple Etymologer doth not thy pen here stink with the tinkture of ancient Hereticks whom you here imitate in that you say that the word Trinity came from Rome in a derision of it I shall not stand to dispute it as a Controversie because perhaps you brought it thence with most if not all of your Tenets but this I know it was a word long time used and never disallowed that I know of by any unlesse erroneous Hereticks for the Latines have it as well as the English thus Trinitas as we Trinity both signifying three in one and so agreeable unto Scripture But O wretched imitator of Hereticks who with thy self hath stumbled at this word Michael Servetus that heretical blasphemer compared the Trinity unto Cerberus the Porter of Hell-gate and Arius that notable Heretick counted the word Trinity a Fiction and a laughing-stock whose end was as wretched as his life was wicked for in easing himselfe of natures courses he disburdened himselfe of his bowels and the same opinion is now upheld by his Successor Biddle a man no lesse obstinate then erroneous The Turkish Mabomet and Sabellio likewise held the word Trinity in derision as doe you and many more of your Society and I fear in many more of your Tenets concurre with them Qu. Whether Jesus the Son of Mary incarnated in the flesh Godman in one person who dyed at Jerusalem upon the Crosse rose from the death to life the third day and ascended on high into the highest heavens and sitteth on the right hand of God be the true Messias that you own and say is within you Answ. Jesus the Sonne of God and Eternal Word which came downe from God became flesh borne of the Virgin God and man who dyed at Jerusalem rose againe ascended and sitteth at the right hand of the Father the true Messias which Christ we own to be within us which no carnal minde which denies his light can comprehend and Christ in you except ye be Reprobates 1 Cor. 10. 4. Reply 13. This is in some sort more then any of the rest satisfactory but that the true Messias is within you I have not faith to beleeve it because I see such opposite actings to him or any thing of his spirit That I apprehend them rather
that are translated from the death of sinne and condemnation through a dissolution of the body by a natural death unto everlasting life and salvation for there is and ever will be a gulfe betweene you and your Captain General and their eternal habitation Qu. 16. And if you have no sinne to what end is Christ beneficial as an Advocate Intercessor and Mediator or is he no such Answ. 16. Christ that gives a man a light to see his sinne who redeems and cleanseth him from sinne is of use to us and all that knowes him as the Mediator and of use to keep his from the wicked one and that he toucheth them not 1 John 5. 18. And the same who sets free from sinne is he that keeps free from sinne and this benefit we have by him as Advocate Intercessor and Mediator Ephes. 16. 17. Reply 16. And here O secret Deceiver you grant what you so lately denied for if you had not owned perfect and present perfection this Query had been void and not to have been answered and therefore in answering it without any exception or caution in the least you grant the subject perfect perfection and to this alludes the whole drift of your Answer namely to justifie what you before denied even perfect purity or perfection and so endeavour to ordaine Christ a new matter and manner of officiating as Advocate Intercessor and Mediator and that Christ gives a man that beleeves in him light to see his sin I own and witnesse and therefore you knowing not your sins it is unto me an evident manifestation that you have not the true light of Jesus Christ but to particulars Intercession is a passing between or being surety to undertake to satisfie for ones debt now if you acknowledge no debt due for sinne what need have you of a surety is he not uselesse unto you in this respect And a Mediator is one that goeth betwixt or withstandeth a matter that it goeth not forwards that is betwixt us and Gods wrath against us for sinne and how can he withstand that which is not And if there be no sinne what need is there of an Advocate to plead for us will not innocency acquit it selfe But if any man sinne not else we have an Advocate with God the Father Jesus Christ the reghteous and he is the propitiation for our sinnes that is a Sacrifice for to appease Gods anger for so the word signifies kindled by our sinnes and quenched by his blood for without blood is no Sacrifice made Now if we have no sinne there can be no wrath unlesse God can be unjust which is impossible and therefore there needs no appeasment where there is no anger And thus if you have no sinne is Christ uselesse as a Mediator and Advocate for sin So this Query rests unanswered also Qu. 17. And if you are perfect in purity what is the cause you are not also perfect in glory Answ. 17. Perfect glory is perfect purity and every one according to their measures are glorified therewith but this world knows not whose glory fadeth neither can they judge of it with their impure spirit 2 Cor. 3. 18. And of this glory all the Saints have a measure in this life but the world hates it Reply 17. Here you also grant againe that which before you denied to wit perfect purity that you in no wise here deny but rather justifie the present enjoyment of it but if you are now perfect in purity and glory is there not yet a greater and more sublime perfection of both to be expected by the faithful and if there be is not this you now pretend to enjoy imperfect by reason of that which excelleth and if there be not what then is Scripture untrue and is not this an alluding unto an immediate enjoyment of heaven upon earth and if so then that which you before denied is here also confessed concerning heaven upon earth and if this be perfection then I am sure that as is the world so is thy spirit ignorant of that which indeed is perfect and true perfection which no carnal or apostatiz'd eye can see unto for it is spiritually discerned Qu. 18. And if you disown method in teaching I Quere whether you have any command against it and whether you esteeme confusion better then uniformity Answ. 18. That method and teaching which is out of the doctrine of Christ which is in the wisedome of man and in the wisedome of words of mans wisedome out of the unity of the light of Christ and his Spirit this we see to be confusion and not uniformity and against it we have a command which was judged with the spirit of the Apostles so do we 1 Cor. 2. Reply 18. This pretended titular answer savours so much either of ignorant folly or of sophistical deceit is so far exorbitant from the thing required that it rather deserves to be laugh'd at then in the least to be reply'd unto Qu. 19. Whether ever intentively the Gospel was promised to be made known or practically that it was made known without the means to wiâ— the Ministration of man if not why then doe you resist it Ans. 19. The Gospel was made known and promised intentively and practically to the servants and children of God without the ministration of man as to Adam Enoch Noah Abraham Isay and all the Prophets John Baptist Simeon the Shepherds Paul and divers others and the same he doth at this day and none can limit him nor doe I resist what meanes he uses but such as resist his works deny his light and would limit him Gen. 3. 15. Gen. 9 9. Gen. 17. 7 Luke 3. 20. Luke 2. 10. Gal. 1. 11 12. Reply 19. O blind Sophister could probability have rendred such absurdity as possible to be in any especially one so much pretending peculiar and sacred knowledge as to bring the meanes as a testimony against it selfe as you doe and as absurd would it be to imagine that any should preach the Gospel of Christ as from themselves though I dare presume to say you doe for then would it be of man not of God And I meane thus whether ever God by promise or by practice intended or did make publick his Gospel but by the use of the meanes to wit man which it could not be but it must be first reveal'd to man and so be by man but not of man as you falsly affirm it is which meanes was Enoch who preached the Gospel in publick which had been revealed unto him in private and Noah the eighth person was a Preacher of righteousnesse and so was Isay insomuch that I have heard it made a question whether he were most properly a Prophet or an Evangelist and so were the rest of the Prophets Preachers of the same Gospel and therein were those meanes which you seem to deny and the like was John the Baptist a Preacher of the Gospel and therefore a meanes and a Minister of
any thing that men or Angels are able to conceive but onely the finger of God is able to accomplish it as the worker for with man it is impossible but not with God for though we may heare the word of God sounding in our eares as a whistling wind yet cannot we comprehend the secret motions of it in our hearts and therefore not understand the depth of this unsearchable Mystery In a word the begetting or fashioning of this New Creature the Ministry of the word of God by man is but the instrument whereby the spirit of God worketh without the which it is no more able to form this new creature then are the tools belonging to any work able to bring the same to passe without the hand or guidance of the Artificer and he that knoweth it by the Letter of Scripture knowes it not without the light for the Scripture was written by man but revealed by the true light and therefore the words of him from whom it proceeded and God is pleased to reveal himself but two wayes to the best of my knowledge and that either ordinary by his written Word by which we may try and in some sort judge of spirits too that hee which denies Christ as come in the flesh is a lyar and an Antichrist and he that denies the use and ministration of Ordinances mentioned there resists that power that instituted them and he that resists receiveth unto himself damnation a sad word or extraordinary by his spirit which is not commonly usual but still with this limitation he never reveales himselfe to any by his spirit to oppose his commands in the letter And since your spirit is such a one I leave it unto you to examine whether it be a spirit of delusion or no for Christ never resisteth his own will and ordinances and if it seems so unto you remember Satan hath transformed himselfe into an Angel of light and if you be his Ministers as the tree Antichrist is known by his fruits heresie in Doctrine cease to call thy selfe the Minister of Christ and pull off the sheeps cloathing of your faire pretences that so we may discerne you in your colours and see the Pope in your wolvish shapes Quere 5. Whether the least measure of saving faith in Christ Jesus be not present power above the Devil and all the powers of darknesse which if it be then what is the cause that men must be captivated to commit sin while they live whether it is want of faith or that there is not power in faith to overcome the evil one or hath any faith in Christ further then they have power over sinne and the world or is there any rest to a beleever short of that power An Answer to the Fifth Quere The least measure of saving faith in Christ Jesus is sufficient to support us from everlasting misery and from the condemnation which the Devil would by his power bring us under and to build us up to that inheritance immortal which fadeth not away but is reserved in heaven for us and it is present power above the destructive powers of the Devil and darknesse but not against the disturbative power of sinne whose policy hath in the first Adam purchased an interest in all his posterity unlesse that with the second Adam we became one in unity and glory with him and if it were present power to conquer Satan and all the powers of darknesse and by its puissance to wholly subdue him presently this were present victory which is the end of war when as a Christians pilgrimage to heaven is a continual warfare the victory whereof is onely sealed perfectly in death for though by faith in Christ we are free from the dominion of sin and death too yet is the most faithful not perfectly free from the remnants of sinne which is the sting of death for though the least measure of saving faith in Christ be sufficient to free and keep us from the dominion of sinne yet the greatest portion or fulnesse that ever was distributed unto the greatest of the Apostles exempted them not from the remnant of sinne not onely original but also actual too for Peter he was accused get thee behinde me Satan and after deny'd his Master and then dissembled so as to be contradicted by Paul who also was so far lifted up on the wings of ambition that he needed to be corrected and therefore received a prick in the flesh which was neither through the wants nor disabilities of faith through which he boasted he could doe all things but the law of his members the remnants of sin there warring against the law of his minde brought him captive to the law of sinne and death which remnants are commonly called sins of infirmity which are left as thorns in our sides to prove us whether we will continue faithful to the end that so we may be crowned with glory And who had faith so much and so strong as to be translated in the spirit and give his soule the prospect of that no lesse eternally sacred then incomprehensibly glorious object of the third heavens and by this overcame the power as a Saint but could not shun the temptation as he was a man but both his will and affections were so far subordinate as the latter to those powers of darknesse that faith he the good that I would doe that doe I not and the evil that I would not that doe I but then as the former If any man may bâ—ast muâ—h more I I live and yet not I but Christ that liveth in me and until the one be separated from the other there can be no perfect perfection for the same Apostle asserts this is a faithful saying Christ died to save sinners of whom I not onely was but am the chief and we including himselfe too have all sinned all none excepted and come short of the glory of God and James saith also the same that in many things we â—ffend all and John that Apostle of love and Eagle-ey'd Evangelist to pry into the secrets of those Mysteries of the Son of glory records this that he that saith he hath no sinne is a lyar and the truth is not in him and therefore you are lyars and void of the truth if then the Apostles who had the most eminent faith above all others were not free from the remnant of sinne nay and some grosse ones too I cannot be convinced that perfect perfection can be in any before a dissolution of mortality and a resurrection unto glorification I say since that they were contented to rest without discomfort in perseverance till Jesus the Author and Finisher of their faith should come to change their vile bodies therefore not pure and make them like his glorious body I cannot apprehend that any one shall attaine any higher perfection until they come to the end of their race eternal rest if they run so as to obtaine and they that content