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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14366	A moste necessary treatise of free wil not onlye against the Bapistes, but also against the Anabaptistes, which in these our daies, go about to renue the detestable heresies of Pelagius, and of the Luciferians, whiche say and affirm, that we be able by our own natural strength to fulfil the law and commaundementes of God. Made dialoge wyse by Iohn Veron, in a manner word by woorde, as he did set it forth in his lectures at Paules.	Véron, John, d. 1563.	1561 (1561)	STC 24684; ESTC S101311	58,715	178

against our wils but we are lead willinglye or with our wils It appeareath by this How of vn wyllnge we are made willing that of vnwillinge persons we must by the inwarde drawing of our heauenly father be made wylling els oure wils cānot be healed frō their natural rebelliousnesse which we haue of oure fyrste parents Adam and Eue. Thus then we maye righte well say that God saueth no man against his wyll For why He maketh them all wyllinge afore whome he dothe saue How this ought to be vnderstanded that God saueth no man against his wyll And whom he made wyllinge them dothe he also healpe aide and adsist that they maye doo the thinge that he hathe made them wyllinge to do And so maye we affyrme boldely that God is oure healper because that beinge throughlye regenerated or renewed in Christe we do through the assistaunce and helpe of his holy spirit worke with his grace EVTRAPELVS Nowe maye ye perceaue and see The faith fullnesse that the papistes do vse in aleaging the auncient writers what truth and faithfulnesse youre spirituall gentyll men do vse in aleadginge the olde writers of the auncient Catholyke churche And that all that they go aboute is by hooke and by crooke to bringe men from the true and right vnderstandinge of of Goddes worde and to plucke them from the trust that they oughte to haue in the meare mercye and goodnesse of God and in his gratuite and free grace in to a vayne confidence of their own natural vertu strēgth I woulde wyshe that at the least they woulde alwayes haue before theyr eies this goodly sayinge of Eucherius bishop of Lions Christ saith he is the tre of life who so euer doth retch forth his hand vnto him shal liue but free will is the tre of knowledge of good and euil whosoeuer forsaking the grace of God wyll taste of it shall dye the death ALBION Now wyl I tell you what obiections I made agaynste them Fyrst I dyd aske them why Ieremy did saye Iere. x. Nowe I knowe O Lorde that it is not in mannes power to order hys own wayes or to rule hys owne steppes and goinges PHILA Ye did go oute of youre matter For your communication was of heauenlye and spyrituall thinges that is to saye of the knowledge of God and of his blessed will and whether we can rule oure selues accordynge vnto it Whiche to doe it lyeth not in the power or fre wil of man But ther Ieremye dothe speake of earthlye thinges and which do pertain vnto this present life In deede God hath yet left in man a certaine natural light wherby he may know what is good for this presente lyfe of the bodye and for the gouernement of his house Nothing can be broughte to passe by the industrye of man with out the helpe of God Pro. xvi but yet nothing can be bring to passe wythout the ayde and healpe of God So muste the saying of the wyse manne be vnderstanded where he saythe A man deuiseth in hys hart but the Lord ordreth hys goynges Wher vnto the common Prouerbe dothe agre that is to say Man doth purpose but God dothe dispose How be it I woulde fayne knowe what aunswere they made vnto you ALBION They dyd aunswere me that in deede manne was not able manye tymes to bringe that thynge to passe that he woulde withoute the grace of God that it lyeth not in the power of man to walke vprightly in the waye of righteousnesse without thassistāce and healpe of the holy ghoste And for the probation of it they dyd bryng in certayne places whiche ye haue aleadged alreadi as these A man can receaue nothing at all Iohn iii. except it be geuen hym frō aboue Again ii Cor. iii we are not able of our selues to thinke a good thought but all our ablenesse commeth of God Also the saying of Sainte Iames Iam. i. where he sayeth Euery good gift and euery perfect gifte is from aboue and cometh downe from the father of light EVTRA. I chaunced once to reason with a great doctor of diuinity who did affirme that it dyd lye in our power to receyue the grace of God when it is offred vnto vs making a great bragge that he was able to proue it by manifest textes of the scripture Then dyd I aske the gentle manne whether it was not a good gift to receiue the grace of God when it is offred whyche thinge he did graunte by and by Then did I make mine argument after this manner Euerye good gift is from aboue and commeth downe from the father of lyghte But to receiue the grace of GOD when it is offred is a good gyfte ergo it commeth of God that we do receyue hys grace and not of our selues DYDIMVS What answer did he make EVTRA. The substantiall Aunswer of a popish doctoure What answer he made me I warrante you a doctor lyke aunswer For by and by he tooke hys gloues from vnder his girdle and did cast them vnto me saying Loe I geue you these gloues bee they not yours when I haue geuē you them can it be said that they be mine stil PHILA That was aunsweared like a doctoure But go on stil brother Albion I praye you dyd they aleadge any more ALBION Yes For they dyd aleadge Gregory who wrytinge vpon these woordes of the Psalmist Gregorius in psalmos My soule thyrsteth for thee in a barren and dry lande where no water is saith plainly these wordes Sith that fre wyll hathe bene corrupted in our fyrste father we are not able to wyl a good thyng excepte we be healped wyth the grace of God PHILALETHES I knew ryghte well that youre faythfull guydes shoulde be fayn at length to crye peccaui and to recante their dyuelyshe and erroneous opinyon The enemies of the truth are against them selues For if ye marcke well the definition that they gaue vnto free wyll ye shall fynde that they dyd attrybute nothynge at all vnto the grace of God yea no mention at all was made of it Ye se nowe that they saye agaynst theyr own selues wherein they doe shewe theyr ignorance and beastishnesse They hadde spoken so largelye wythoute the boke that they wer fayne to goe backe and to vnsaye agayne that whych they had sayde afore But vppon this texte of Ieremy I myghte make myne argumente after thys manner If man canne not wythoute the healpe of God A minori ad maius brynge earthlye thynges to passe howe muche lesse shall he be able wythoute the grace of God to come to the knowledge of heauenly thinges EVTRAPE Herein may we see the beastishnesse of these bragging marchauntes of the cleargy For they do assone aleadge that whyche maketh agaynste theym as that whyche seemeth to make for theym For if all thinges be well consydered and marcked the laste authorities of the scripture which they dyd aledge wyth the sayinge of Gregory

him the cause of theyr calamities and miseries whyche was in them selues With theese few solutions answers any man may easely rid him selfe from manye authorities whiche the ennemyes of the grace of God are wōt to heape together for to erect and sette vppe the Idoll of theyr free wyll ALBION This is moste sure that the Lorde dothe speake these woordes by his prophet Oseas Obiectiō I wyll go and retourn to my place Osee v. tyll they waxe faint and seke me It were a folish thing said my gentle men vnto me if the LORD should tary til Israel shuld tourne and seeke hym except it dyd lie in theyr power to tourn which waye they listed PHILA Aunswer The enemies can wynne nothinge vpon vs by the threatenings of god As thoughe the Lorde doth not commōly in the prophets make as though he should forsake and caste of hys people tyll they amend and tourne vnto hym but what are oure ennemyes able to gather of suche threatnynges If they go about to gather by them that men beinge forsaken of God are of their owne selues able to turne againe then haue they all the scriptures against them If they saye that they haue neede of the garce of God that they maye turne again what neede they to contende or striue with vs DIDYMVS They do not denye but that the grace of God is necessarye if ye wyll graunte that there is also in manne a certayne strength PHILALETHES Howe shall they be able to prone that Truely they can not proue it by this place nor by suche like For it is an other thynge to go away from man and to looke what beyng permitted and lefte vnto hym selfe he is able to do and an other thynge to healpe hys small strength as hys imbecilitye and weakenesse dothe requyre DYDIMVS Question What doth the lord meane then by suche manner of speakyng PHILALETHES It is euen as if he shoulde say Aunswer Syth that this rebellious people wyll take no heede to my warnings and exhortations nor yet to my sharpe rebukinges I wyll for a tyme wythdrawe my self from him and suffer him to be afflycted and troubled I wyll see whether this styfnecked people wyll at length after theyr greate calamityes miseries and troubles remember me and seke my face Nowe What it is meant when the scripture sayeth that God doth withdrawe him selfe from this people when the scripture sayeth that God dothe wythdraw hym self the meaning of it is that God doth take away hys prophecye and worde wher in he declareth a certain presēce of hys And to looke what men wyll do it signifyeth that God wyll holde him selfe styll and as he were a sleape suffer them to be manye and sondrye wayes plaged And bothe these thynges is he wont to doo for to make vs to humble oure selues For we should rather by aduersitye be dryuen vnto desperatyon than vnto anye amendemente of lyfe except he should by his spirite make vs meete to receiue hys chastisement Wherfore to go about by suche places for to proue that there is anye such strengthe in vs or that we haue free wyll to doe what we list it is a plain madnes For such thinges be spoken in the scriptures for none other purpose but for to make vs to know oure own infirmity and weakenesse ALBION I dyd aske them whether they could bryng anye authorities of the scripture The obiection of the papistes whereby they myght proue expreslye that a man hath suche free wyll as they went about to maintaine and vphold They dyd then aunswer me that Moses was so sure of it that he did not doubt to say these wordes vnto the children of Israell Deut. xxx I take heauen and earth this day to record ouer you that I haue layde before you life and deathe blessing and cursing Chuse life therefore that thou mayest lyue thou and thy feede and that ye maye loue the Lorde your God and harken vnto his voyce and cleaue vnto him Iosu xxiiii Iosua also did saye vnto the people Chuse ye this daye whome ye wyll serue The God whome youre fathers serued beyonde the water or the Goddes of the Amorites in whose lande ye dwell Thinke ye that these true seruaunts of God Moses and Iosua would haue spoken thus vnto the people except it had lyen in their power to chuse which they would It is playne then that they had free wyll elles suche things hadde bene spoken vnto them in vaine PHILALETHES Aunswer Suche sentences and autoryties of the scripture do not proue that man hath free wyl to do what he lyst or that he can at his owne pleasure chuse both good and euil For although Moses doth saye vnto the people I do laye before you both life and death yet it foloweth not that they were able of theyr owne selues to chuse lyfe without the spirit and grace of God Deu. xxix Whiche thinge he doth sufficientely declare in an other place when he sayeth Thyne eies haue sene these greate tokens and wonders Yet the Lorde hath not geuen thee a harte to vnderstande nor eares to heare nor eies to see As then it did profytte the people nothinge to haue seene the greate tokens and wonders that the Lord did worke in Egipt euen in theyr owne sight excepte he did geue them a harte to vnderstande eares to heare and eies to see that is to saye except the Lorde did by his holy spirit lyghten their harts vnstop their eares and cleare the eyes of theyr myndes euen so althoughe Moses Iosua and all the prophetes of God doe saye a thousande time Behold we laye before you lyfe and death chuse whiche ye wyll yet all this wyll profytte vs nothinge except God dothe worke inwardely wyth his holy spirit Whiche thinge Saint Paule dothe neyther dyssemble nor hydde when he wryteth on thys manner i. Cor. i. I haue planted and Apollo hathe watred But it is the Lord that geueth the encreace But that ye maye the better perceaue the whole matter ye shall vnderstande that God doth by the preachinge of his prophetes and Apostles Mat. ix as when oure sauioure Iesu Christe dyd saye vnto the manne that was sycke of the palsye aryse take vp thy bedde and go home It dyd not folowe that he hadde strengthe to aryse excepte oure sauyoure Iesus Christe hadde geuen it hym But when Chryste dyd saye vnto hym aryse He did streyght wyth it geue him strength to aryse Euen so when God doth by his preachers speake vnto them whom he hath chosen already and doth commaund them to aryse oute of the bdde of synne streyght wyth hee geueth them strength to do it DIDYMVS Obiectiō I maruayle that ye wyll haue no manner of strength to bee lefte vnto vs in thinges that perteyne to our saluation and lyfe euerlastinge syth that oure sauioure Iesus Crhist him self doth testifye that the manne that went from Ierusalem to Iericho luc x. by whom he

that we may as we haue done here to fore mynister vnto you the salue of Gods worde ALBION I am muche bounde to you brother Philalethes for the great kindnesse that ye shew vnto me beyng so ready at al tymes to healpe and succoure me in thys great perplexity of mynde that I am in God I trust who is the author of all goodnes and who hath inclyned your hart vnto me shal reward thys your paynfull labor that ye take about me O moste mercyfull and bountious father A thanks geuinge ioigned with a faithfull prayer geuinge thee moste hartye thankes for these thy benefyttes wherewith thou hast so graciouslie refreshed vs we do humbly beseche thee to sende thy holy spyrit in to oure heartes that we may in this our communycation and talke set-fourth thy glorye onely to the vtter confusion and ouerthrowe of al the shamefull enemyes of thy free mercye and grace EVTRAPELVS God of his goodnesse vouchesafe to graunte vs all The enemies of goddes grace that we may so do For there be manye in the worlde which are suche enemyes of the free mercy and grace of God The papistes that whosoeuer doth accordinge to the scriptures affyrme or say that we are saued only by his free mercye and grace they are most ready to persecute them wyth fyer and swerde as most pernicious and abhominable heretykes and as vtter enemies of all truth DIDYMVS The Anabaptistes and free wil men Ye shall not onely fynde of them amonge the papystes but also amonge them that wyll be coumpted most perfect christians most earnest fauourers of the gospel ALBION Where so euer they he found my faythfull guydes dyd tel me that we haue fre wil whiche thing ye do all denye Therefore I would fayne hear what ye can say concerning that matter PHILALEEHES What doe they vnderstand by fre wyll For they are wonte to speake of it many and sondry wayes Some do by it vnderstand one thyng and some an other ALBION They tolde me What scole men vnderstande by fre wyll that by free wyll they do vnderstande a certaine facultye or power beynge in seperably in the will of manne wherby he mighte do or leaue vndone any maner of thinge as wit and reason dyd thinke or iudge it expediente For saye they manne by hys wit and reason dothe consyder weyghe and ponder a thynge and dothe examyne and trye whether it be good or not and then by the vertue of hys free wyll eyther he dothe it or leaueth it vndone euen as it pleaseth hym PHILALETHES What meaned they thynke ye After the papistes iudgemēt we are masters of oure wyll by that defynition ALBI. As it appeareth both by that difynition and also by other talke that they hadde afterwardes their meaninge was that we are masters of oure owne wyll and iudgement and that therfore we canne by oure owne strengthe turne oure selues whiche waye we lyste that is to say that we be able by our owne vertue to do good or euil how blasphemous popishe doctrine is concerning free wyll to saue or damne our selues EVTRA. O what blasphemye is this against God and his worde If ye do well marke this defynition ye shall easely perceiue that it is rather the difynition of prophane and heathenyshe Philosophers than of Christen doctours Ye maye well vnderstande that if this definition wer true we shuld not neede to pray vnto God for his helpe assistaunce nor to call vpō him for his holy spirit We shoulde haue no nede to saye if it pleaseth God we wil do this thing or that thing Do thei not thē bi their definitiō place mā in the stede roume of god PH. If these faithful guids of yours had any zeale to setforthe the grace of God his free mercy goodnesse they wold haue geuē an other definitiō vnto free wil. AL. Which I praye you PHI. They wold at least haue geuen the definition that s Augustine doth vse Which is this Liberum arbitrium The defynition of free wyll after Sainte Augusti est facultas rationis et voluntatis qua bonum eligitur gratia adsistente malum vero ea desistente That is to saye free wyll is a vertue or power of the reasonne and wyll whereby the good is chosen when the grace of God dothe adsiste and the euill when it is awaye or is wythdrawen The meaninge is The meaninge of Augustines defynition that by free wyll if we haue the adsistaunce and healpe of the grace of God we are able to chuse that whiche is good but if the grace of God be awaye or be withdrawen we can no more but embrace that whiche is euyll and hurtefull to oure owne soules DIDY Question And is there none other definition of fre wyll PHILALETHES Aunswer The master of sentences Li ii senten distin xxv Yea verelye For the master of Sentences dothe wryte that it is not sayed that man hathe free wyll because that he is as able to thinke and doo good as he is to thinke do euyll but because that he is not subiect vnto necessitye or compulsyon Lombardus his meaning DyDIMVS What shuld he mene by that PHILALETHES Hys meanyng is Scholemen that the euyl which man doth he doth it frely and wythout compulsion And therefore the schole men saye that this fredome and libertye is not letted thoughe we be wicked and seruauntes of sinne and can no more but synne stil and offend But truely this cānot be vnderstanded of a man that is regenerated or borne of newe For the holy ghost that is in him dothe wythstande the euil that he would do And likewise by this definition or determinatyon of the master of sentences it myghte be said that a man which is regenerated or borne of newe hathe free will How it maye be saied that a man which is regenerated hath free wyll Ecclesia cus xv chapi because that the same lyttle good that he doth he doth it frely and frankly ALBION They dyd brynge in a place out of Ecclesiasticus otherwyse called Iesus the sonne of Sirach wher it is thus written God made man from the beginning and lefte him in the hande of his counsaill He gaue him his commaundementes and preceptes If thou wylt obserue the commaundementes and kepe acceptable faythfulnesse for euer they shall preserue the. He hath set fyer and water before thee reache oute thine hande vnto whiche thou wilte Before manne is life and death good and euyll loke what him liketh shal be geuen him Episto ad ctesiphontem They did also aleadge many doctours as Ierome against the Pelagians where he sayeth thus In this doo we dyffer from brute beastes that we haue bene created with free will Li. ii contra martio home ix in gen Ei xii mora They did aleadge Tertulian Chrisostome and Hilary Which all do affirme that man hath suche free wyll as they did declare vnto me afore