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A44191 Lord Hollis, his remains being a second letter to a friend, concerning the judicature of the bishops in Parliament, in the vindication of what he wrote in his first : and in answer to ... The rights of the bishops to judge in capital cases in Parliament, cleared, &c. : it contains likewise part of his intended answer to a second tractate, entituled, The grand question touching the bishops right to vote in Parliament, stated and argued : to which are added Considerations, in answer to the learned author of The grand question, &c., by another hand : and reflections upon some passages in Mr. Hunt's Argument upon that subject, &c., by a third.; Second letter to a friend concerning the judicature of the bishops in Parliament Holles, Denzil Holles, Baron, 1599-1680.; Holles, Denzil Holles, Baron, 1599-1680. Letter of a gentleman to his friend.; Atwood, William, d. 1705? Reflections upon Antidotum Britannicum. 1682 (1682) Wing H2466; ESTC R17318 217,539 444

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Proctor at the beginning of the Tryal as is manifest and agreed by all therefore the Crime charged upon the Clergy could not but be before any Proceedings against any of the Criminals except that preliminary Vote which made them guilty of Blood in that Chronicler's Sense In Conclusion there was no Act to revoke these Pardons but the King it seems caused Execution to be done upon his own Authority and those general Votes in which the Clergy were present so that after all this Attempt the Authority of this MSS is against him But after all this we have one help left saith the Author of the Letter for if this Action in this Parliament would do him any Service the whole Parliament was repealed in I Henry the Fourth and so no Authority to be laid upon it I but replyes the Grand Questionist the Author of the Letter admits that the three Henries Fourth Fifth and Sixth were Usurpers and therefore the Repeal of that Parliament void I acknowledge the Author of the Letter saith so but he is so to be understood as the Law is now taken not as it was then for we see Henry the Fourh in Parliament claimed the Crown as his Right as being Heir to Iohn of Gaunt fourth Son to Edward the Third whereas the Title of Mortimer who was by another Parliament declared next Heir arose by his Marriage with Philippa Daughter and Heir to Lionel Duke of Clarence who was the third Son to Edward the Third but it was never before determined that the Daughter of a third Brother should be preferred in Succession to the Crown to the Son of a Fourth We see Maud the Empress Daughter to Henry the First could not be received Queen though she attempted and sought for it neither ever had we a Queen since the Conquest till that time Nor can I divine how long it might have remained a Question had not that Controversie been determined by the happy Union of both Titles in Henry the Seventh who married the Daughter and Heir of the house of York The next Question will be how far Laws made by an Usurper generally received and accepted by the People upon the resignation of the immediate precedent Possessor shall be esteemed valid I fear if we make such Laws void we must find some new way to make many of ours good till Henry the Second Was not Robert eldest Son to William the First alive till toward the latter end of the Reign of Henry the First who about the eighth Year after he was King deprived him of his Eyes after which he lived a Prisoner twenty six Years William Rufus had no better Title than the Acceptance of the People and his Composition with his Brother Robert who resigned his Title for 3000 Marks per an Henry the First succeeds by Title no better till Robert's miserable Death which happened in the thirty fifth year of his Reign and about a year before his death After him Stephen steps into the Throne help'd by two powerful Friends the Bishop of Winchester the Popes Legate his own Brother and the Bishop of Salisbury his great Friend and this in the Life of Maud Daughter to Henry the First and his own Brother Theobald whose Title though bad was better than Stephen's they being both Grand-children to William the first by Adela his Daughter marryed to the Earl of Blois But for this great favour and their breach of Oath to Maud he promised great Immunities to the Church and amongst other that Clergy-men should not be bound to answer to secular Courts But by our Author's Logick this Concession was void and the Clergy had no reason to complain because the old Law was revived at Clarendon At last to sodder all a Composition was made that Henry Maud's Son should have the Crown after Stephen's death which was performed by her Consent Maud being then alive who having strugled for the Crown as much as she could was at last contented with this Composition which was the only legal Title King Stephen had and no more voluntary in Maud than was that of Richard the Second But at length Maud dyes and Henry the Second and his Son Richard the first enjoyed the Crown in their just Rights After their Death Iohn comes upon the Stage in the Life of Arthur his elder Brother's Son so that here we have another Usurper after whose death and the death of Arthur Henry the Third had a good Title whose Descendents enjoy it to our Time for the Quarrels between York and Lancaster were not about the Line but the Persons insomuch that till Henry the Third the best Title to the Crown was the Acceptance of the People and particular Compositions with those who had the greater Right Come we nearer home to the time of Henry the Seventh who after the Death of his Mother and his Marriage with the Daughter and Heir of Edward the Fourth was rightful King His Eldest Daughter was marryed into Scotland from whom our present King enjoys his Crowns upon an unquestionable Title We will now come to his Son Henry the Eighth he had two Daughters Mary and Elizabeth the first by Katharine his elder Brother Arthur his Relict the second by Anne of Bullein born in the Life of his first repudiated Wife Queen Katharine Mary was by Act of Parliament declared a Bastard as born within unlawful Espousals Elizabeth after the Disgrace of her Mother was served in the same kind yet we see both of them successively enjoyed the Crown by virtue of another Act which entailed it upon them with the approbation of the people whereas otherwise the true Right would have been in Mary Queen of Scots our present Sovereigns great Grand-mother I might pursue this Theme through France in the case of Hugh Capet through Spain in the family of the D. of Medina Celi and at present in Portugal but I will not go out of our own Kingdoms and have said enough to make it manifest that Laws may be made or repealed by such Kings as are in Possession by Composition or Resignation with the acceptance of the People else our unwary Author hath laid a foundation to overthrow or weaken not only most of our Laws but most of the Laws of Europe Over and above all this if the Laws of Henry the fourth fifth and sixth were not good why did not the Nobility made in that time get new Charters of Creation in Edward the fourth's time Nay what became of the whole Hierarchy Many of the Prelates and inferiour Clergy must of necessity be consecrated by those that were no Bishops and consequently their Consecration and Orders by them conferred were void and all our subsequent Clergy who derive their Authority from those who had no legal Right extinguished a thing in my Judgment worth consideration to such as would avoid Laws made by actual Kings though their just Title might be disputed His mentioning Oliver rather deserves pity for his Inadvertence than any other Answer
Baronies for ought appears of elder time which he denies any did before the time of William the first of which perhaps more anon doth believe that this Tenure was enacted by some Parliament in William's time preceding to this whose Journals or Records are now lost yet adds for a further Proof the Authority of an ancient Manuscript in his hand belonging it seems to the Abbey of Ramsey of Matth. Paris where over the Year 1070 are inserted these Words In this Year the Servitium Baroniae was imposed upon Ramsey This perhaps might equally concern other Abbies yet seems but a weak Proof of the matter in question as to the Bishops did not somewhat in Ingulphus and the subsequent Practice give some Light to the Business But neither Laws nor Practice ought to be forced or stretched to a greater Latitude than the natural Construction of the Words will bear It cannot reasonably be denied but that in the Times of our Ancestors when Learning in Lay-men was very rare that the Clergy bare a great sway in the Councils of Princes and Great Men who busied themselves in little more then Feats of Arms and Hospitality But the Clergy a wary and vigilant sort of People guided by the subtile Heads of Rome under whose Banner they always fought what under pretences of Piety Satisfaction for Sins commited Redemption of Souls out of Purgatory and what not captivated the Consciences and drained the Purses of most of the ignorant Multitude Nay so holy was their Function and so sacred their Persons that no Secular Tribunal was by them thought sanctified enough to question their Actions but they still pressed to be remitted to their own or by their Appeals to Rome frustrated the Designs of the Civil Magistrate William the first being desirous to put a stop to this exorbitant Pride and growing Power of these Men and yet not disgrace their Calling did as before is mentioned out of Mat. Paris ordain that the Clergy should not be wholly exempted from all Secular Service and probably might before that have altered their Tenure which most-what before was in Frankalmoign unto the Tenure in capite sicut Baroniam or in the nature of a Barony by which they were made subject to such Services as Tenants in cap. per Baroniam were tyed unto and were called to Parliaments and sate among the other Noble-Men and the Barons Peers being first summoned thereunto by the King 's Writ Most Men have considered the Nobilitas Major or those who constituted the House of Peers under a threefold Relation First as made Earls or Barons by Creation and an actual Ceremony of investure of Robes and a succeeding Charter and Writ to attend in Parliament when summoned The Charter comprehended some Limitation how the Honour should go or else some Pension to the Barons to support their Dignity and Title of which you may see more Examples in Mr. Selden's Tit. of Hon. Part 2. Cap. 5. Such I conceive was that Charter made by King Stephen to Mandevile Earl of Essex and renewed again by Maud the Empress the like was that of Miles Earl of Hertford granted by Maud and renewed by Hen. II. which Charter only served to convey the third penny of the County Now these Charters being usual as to Earls which was the highest Degree at that time and an actual Ceremony being also used in the making of Knights which was the lowest degree of Honour I see no reason but to believe that the same Ceremony of Invetisture was used to Barons which was the middle Degree Some Light is given to this by considering the Charter granted to the Lord Iohn Beauchamp of Holt. where the words are Ipsum Iohannem in unum Parium Baronum Regni nostri Angliae praefecimus volentes quod idem Johannes haeredes masculi de Corpore suo exeuntes statum Baronis obtineant ac Domini de Beauchamp Barones de Kiddermister nuncupenter In cujus rei Testimonium c. Here being in this Charter no words of Creation but all in the Praeterperfect Tense we have promoted must refer to some Act done before and this Charter served only to limit how the Estate should go Mr. Seld. Tit. Hon. Part 2. Cap. 5. p. 747. I edit in fol. I know reckons this as the first Creation of a Baron by Patent but doth not observe the words nor his own Subsequent Patents made to others where the words are in the Present Tense and constituent of the Honour granted viz. Praficimus constituimus creamus we do create promote and appoint Neither can I imagine what Right those Ancient Barons of which we have yet some left who were so before Rich. II. have to come this day in Robes had not their Ancestors been invested with them in their Creation and different from those of Earls Now this as it was the most ancient so was it the most honourable way of conferring Honours so was it also the most noble by which their Blood was not only enobled but also all other Rights and Priviledges competible to that Degree were given unto them and certainly we must make some difference between one made a Peer of the Kingdom by Charter and one so called in ordinary Speech of which Name no Man in the Kingdom but is in some sense capable we being all Peers to those of our own Degree Now of these Peers thus enobled by the Invetisture of Robes some were called to Parliament by Writ after the Ceremony of Invetisture had been performed and had never any Patent to limit the descent of the Honour Such had their Honour in fee-simple and it went to the Heirs general of which we have many Examples where the Sole Daughter and Heir of such a Baron hath not only conveyed the Honour to her Descendents but enjoyed the Title herself during Life Amongst many I will only instance in one Charles Longuevile Son and Heir to Susanna Heir general to the Barony de Grey of Ruthin left only one Daughter named Susanna Charles her Father was received in Parliament in his Robes in the latter end of King Charles the first his Reign he dying left the foresaid only Daughter who after his Death married Sir Henry Yelverton of Easton Manduit in Northamptonshire Baronet Sir Henry died leaving Sir Charles Yelverton Baronet his Son and Heir then a Minor Susanna enjoyed the Honour during her Life and at her Death left Charles still under Age who immediately possessed the Honour and at his full Age was called by Writ sate in his Robes in Parliament till he died which happened soon after his Age of twenty one without any issue leaving the Honour to Henry his Brother and Heir yet alive and under Age. See Sir William Dugdale's History of the Baronage Title Lord Grey first Part pag. 718 719. The second way by which some have conceived Barons were made hath been by Writ only without any other Formality or Ceremony whatsoever and of this
and other Lords who were suspected to be of the Confederacy with the said Henry Hotspur alias Percy This was the work of Friday the 18th of February on Saturday the 19th the Commons give Thanks to the Lords Spiritual and Temporal for the rightful Judgment they had given as Peers of Parliament 5 H. 4 from N. 12 to N. 17. This is the whole Case as to Father and Son Now whether the Bishops were present at all these Proceedings and how far is the Question The Grand Questionist contends they were present at the Proceedings both against the Father and the Son at that against the Son from the word full Parliament which he seemeth to infer must include the Bishops and at that against the Father from the Thanks made by the House of Commons the next day after the acquittal of the Earl First as to the Son It appears plainly by the Historians of those times that he was slain in the fourth Year of the King in the life-time of the Father who soon after broke out into Rebellion so that at the time of Henry's Death he was only a Commoner and consequently not to receive any Judgment in the Lord's House alone nor could he be made a Traitor otherwise than by Act of Parliament so that the word full Parliament must either refer to some particular Act of Parliament made in his Case in which the Bishops might be present and the Commons concur or else the Proceedings were wholly irregular and contrary to their own Agreement in 4 E. 3. Now from an illegal Act no Right can be concluded As to the Earl himself we find him suddenly after in open Rebellion defeated and escaped into Scotland with Lord Bardolf and convicted of Treason by the Temporal Lords for not appearing upon Summons and all this within two Years after Now can it be reasonable to think that the Bishops were present at the acquittal of this very Lord in 5 H. 4. who were not present in 7 H. 4. which was but two Years after nor were present at a like Case in 2 H. 4. N. 30. against the Earl of Holland and others which was not three Years before Neither can any weight be laid upon the Thanks of the House of Commons which was only matter of Complement and performed at another time when the House was assembled upon other matters but seeing them there might extend their Thanks to them also who though they could not contribute did nothing to hinder the Clemency of the Temporal Lords towards the Earl besides at the same time it was accorded by the King and Lords upon the Desire of the Commons that certain ill Officers about the King should be discharged in which the Bishops might be Instrumental and very well deserve the Thanks of the Commons at which Desire of the Commons they might assist and be absent at the rest The Precedent of Iohn Lord Talbot will not avail him he exhibited an Accusation against the Earl of Ormond for certain Treasons by him committed this Accusation was in the Marshalsea before the Earl of Bedford Constable of England The King to put an end to this matter doth by Act of Parliament make an Abolition and Discharge of the said Accusation and Discovery The words are That the King by the Advice and Assent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and the Commons made an Abolition of the said Detection Whoever denied the Bishops Consent in a Legislative way and had it been otherwise the Commons could not have been I think regularly concerned 2. H. 6. N. 9. The Precedent of the Duke of Suffolk in 28 H. 6. I thought to have passed over being a Case as irregular in the Proceedings as unjust in those that put to death that unfortunate Man Much Art was used by the Court to have preserved him from the Envy of the People A Parliament assembled at Westminster after dismissed into London then prorogued to Leicester that dissolved and another called at Westminister in which the Duke appeared which exasperated the Commons against him But upon the whole Record it appears that no Issue was joyned for after Articles exhibited by the Commons and his denial of them March 14 at the least of the eight first and giving some Answers to others on the 17 th he was sent for again and the Chancellour acquainted him that he had not put himself upon his Peerage and now asketh him how he would be tried who instead of pleading put himself upon the King's Order who caused him to be banished for five Years By all this it appears here were no judicial Proceedings which could not be before Issue joyned so that although the Bishops were present at the reading of the Articles yet this can be no Precedent to entitle them to be present in judicial Proceedings in Capital Causes for here were none at all in this Case and till Issue joyned the Bishops are not bound to withdraw Neither ought it to seem strange that the Viscount Beaumont should make Protestation in the name of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal against these Proceedings which they finding to be extra-judicial in very many Particulars they did not know I mean the Bishops as well as some of the Lords what Construction might be made to their Prejudice for sometimes they met in one place sometimes in another and not always in the Parliament-House to consult of this Business Besides many things pass sub silentio which being questioned would not have been allowed these Observations being added to what hath been said by the Author of the Letter seems to me a full Answer to this Precedent in which the Protestatio is only Protestatio facti not Iuris I have thus put an end to the Examination of this third Chapter and fully considered all his Arguments and Precedents and come now to a view of his fourth and last Chapter CHAP. IV. IN this Chapter our Author hath employed all his Art to assert the Peerage of the Bishops and that they make a third Estate in Parliament in what sense they are called Peers as also that the entire Clergy met in Convocation make a third Estate I have largely shewed before and shall not now repeat I admit they are sometimes called Lords Spiritual tho not so before Rich. II. but Prelates or the like Peers of the Realm Peers in Parliament If by that Appellation you would make them Equals to the Nobilitas Major I think they never were yet have they many Privtledges in respect of their Seats and Episcopal Dignity in the Lords House and by reason of their most honourable Profession have all of them Precedence to Barons I admit also that the Clergy is really a third Estate and that the Bishops in respect that they are the Head of the Clergy may sometimes in ordinary Discourse be called so but are in truth never so exclusively to the rest of the Clergy they all making but one Body or third Estate fully represented