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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A54844	The new discoverer discover'd by way of answer to Mr. Baxter his pretended discovery of the Grotian religion, with the several subjects therein conteined : to which is added an appendix conteining a rejoynder to diverse things both in the Key for Catholicks, and in the book of disputations about church-government and worship, &c. : together with a letter to the learned and reverend Dr. Heylin, concerning Mr. Hickman and Mr. Bashaw / by Thomas Pierce ...	Pierce, Thomas, 1622-1691.	1659 (1659)	Wing P2186; ESTC R44	268,193	354

justè and Ecclesiastica Ecclesiasticè It is a very good Rule in the Civil Law Quae à judice non legitimo aut non legitimo modo facta sunt ea praesumptionem habe●t contrase And such were our late Sequestrations that although they were made by his beloved long * Note I speak with the vulgar meaning o●ely the two Houses as Mr. Hickman calls them p. 45. or rather the Remnant of the two Houses of which Judge Ienkins hath well inform'd us Parlament yet M. Hickman himself undertakes not in all things to acquit them p. 46. And Mr. B. did avow in his very last Book that 't was a way he was not satisfied with p. 52. Nay a very great part of their proceedings you your self doe disown even in this very Section Nay towards the end of your Book you professe your detestation of them p. 111. And if you may detest what you haue got so much by much more may I who have lost no lesse Not to speak of their losses who have been very dear to me and for whose losses I was afflicted when I thank God for it I was not afflicted for mine own knowing how and for what and from what sort of men my sufferings came Sequestrations are scandalous and sinfull things when they proceed and are inflicted either a non-Iudice or in non-Reum or modo non debito or in f●●em non rectum The particular consideration of which four things applied to all the Sequestrations which have happened within these eighteen years would administer matter for a very just volume had I time sufficient for such a work Yet should I have spoken more largely then now I shall to give you that information which you particularly desire were I not told of an able Gentleman who hath sent a Treatise unto the Presse upon this one subject and addressed it in particular to all your wants Sect. 3. Whereas you say You are d●sirous to be better inform'd in this thing Sufficient Information for such as w●nt and desire it to avoid much guilt which else you may and doe incurre if you be mistaken sect 26. I have two or three things to return unto you First that as I am glad of your good desire so I shall also be sorry if you are never the better for my Assistance Next for sufficient Information I had thought it enough that you knew the tenth Precept Non Concupisces Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours house much less take it into possession with all the good land that lies about it nor any thing that is thy neigebour's much lesse All that is thy Neighbour's Of the Fundamental Lawes of this land and the established Canons of the Church I thought you had a sufficient knowledge If not you may when you please Read but the Works of Judge Ienkins whom God preserve from all Evil and reward at last with a Crown of Righteousnesse Read Magna Charta and the Petition of Right And compare with both * You may see a Copy of this in Biblioth Reg. part 1. ●ect 4. num 10. p. 324. The Proclamation against the oppression of the Clergy by the Insurrection of factious and Schismaticall persons into their Cures c. And compare with all Three The Declaration of the Lord General and his Counsel of Officers shewing the Grounds and Reasons for the Dissolution of the long Parlament 1653. You will find in the three former That the Church amonst others hath these Priviledges that regularly no Ecclesiasticall Possessions can be extended separated or sequestred but by the Ordinary That Distresses may not be taken of Lands wherewith Churches have been anciently endowed and that Churches presentative cannot be filled and the lawfull Incumbent thereof removed but by the Ordinary nor the Cure of the Incumbents served by Curates Lecturers or others but by their own Appointment or in their defect by the Appointment of the Ordinary Nor are any subjects of the Laity by the Common Laws of this Realm capable to take or receive Tithes which are the Portion of the Clergy unlesse by Demise from Them or such as are approp●iate or made Lay-fee c. In the 28 year of King Edward the third it was declared and enacted by Authority of Parlament which is also ratified in the Petition of Right That no man of whatsoever estate or condition be put out of his Land or Tenements nor taken nor imprisoned nor disherited nor put to death without being brought to answer by due Process of Law So by the Statute called The Great Charter of the Liberties of Engl. it is declared and enacted That no Free-man may be taken or imprisoned or be disseized of his Free-hold or Liberties or his free Customes or be out-lawed or exiled or in any manner destroyed but by the lawfull judgement of his Peers or by the Law of the Land c. Note that these are such Laws as are still in force by all confessions they who have broken them the most cannot pretend they have been repealed You cannot object your Scotish Covenant for you have written (a) Plain S●r. proof of Infants Ch. mem p. 123. which compare with 120 121 122. with p. 274. and with your A●en to Aphor. p. 107. against That And if you had not your case were worse The Remnant of the two Houses you cannot urge for the very same reasons and many more Nay since the writing of these words those very Houses which did obtrude you upon another man's Living or Free-hold do now implicitely stand charged with the Sin of Sacriledge as well by your self as by Mr. Vines as may be seen by his (b) Five Disp. of Ch. Gov. Worsh. p. 350.349 Letter which you have printed and by your words thereupon in the page going before it From hence consider very sadly whether they who transgressed so much in one thing doe not deserve your suspicion in many others And now I will hope you are sufficiently informed if you are not you shall be before I leave you Guilty men must keep their secrets or not be angry that they are known But by the way let me tell you that you were never in my Thoughts when I expressed my Dislike of Sequestrations I never knew you had any untill you told me Nor had I knowne it to this houre had you but kept your owne counsell So little Reason had you to use me with so much Bitternesse and Virulence in divers Books But worser dealing then from your selfe though not in print I have h●d from a Minister in this very County of whose Sequestration I was as ignorant as yet I am of his Face I kno● him by nothing but his Injuries and his ist Nam● which I s●all therefore in Charity forbeare to publish I shot but at Rovers and because by accident he was hit he was as angry with the Arrow as if it had been its own Archer and vainly concluded that he was aim'd at when the very

no more then Mr. Baxter himself who yet h●th been branded for a Papist as well as Grotius and by an eminent Presbyterian also that is by one of your own party I shall at once open a way to shew the Nullity of your reasons and the Necessity of your Repentance of which you have made me to live in hope My Reasons o● Argume●ts are these that follow Arg. 1. In his Epistle to Laurentius Proved to be none by 19. Arguments G●ot Animadv in Animadv Riveti p. 83. who had written against him as a Papist whilest yet he liv'd as you have done after his Death intitling his Book Grotius Papizans he doth ex●resly disown the charge facile videbis no● Grotium Papizare sed Laurentiadem nimis Calvinizare Now when I find him expresly disowning Popery even after his Notes upon Cassander who certainly knew his own mind best and when I find you declaring that every man shall by you be taken for that which he professeth to be p. 23. and again that you would take men to be of the Religion which they professe p. 98. and that you will believe the profession of G●otius p. 89. I know not how you can chuse but see your error But come we from writing to word of mouth Arg. 2. There lives a Person of great Honour and of great Romark for his Wisdom as well as for hi● great Learning and Moderation and the eminent imployments he hath been in who hath affirmed in my hearing and not in my hearing onely That being conversant with Grotius during his Embassy in France he took his time to ask Grotius why h● did not communicate with either party G●otius made him this Answer That with the Papi●ts he could not because he was not of their mind with the Calvinists he could not not onely because of his Embassy from Swedeland where they were not Followers of Calvin b●t als● because he was deterr●d by their pernicious Doctrins of God's Decrees To this he added That he would gladly communicate with the Church of England if his condition of Embassador would well permit expressing an ample * This part will be attested by a Reverend person of our Chur●h Mr. Matthias Turner who was personally conversant with G●otius some yeares in France and whose excellent skill In Greek and Hebrew did make him the fitter for such converse so will it also by a great Personage distinct from him in my Text. Approbation of our Doctrine and Discipline as also heartily wishing to live and dye in that Communion I do not name that Noble person who is the Author of this Relation because I have not yet ask'd his leave If you can must to my integrity I need not say more if not I can prove it by so unquestionable a witness as I am very confident you cannot but trust However you find it to be agreeable to what himself whilst he was living made known in print and you shall find it agreeable to that which followes For Arg. 3. Many are able to attest that 't was the last advice which he though● it his duty to give his wife that she would declare him to dye in that Communion in which he desired than she her self would still live This she manifested accordingly by coming on purpose to our Church at Sir Richard Brown's House the King of England's Resident them in France where from the hands of Mr. Cro●de● she received the * Of this Sir Thomas D●r●l professeth hims●lf an Eye-witness and that her two daughters ●●●●ived with her Sacrament of the Lord's Supper And this i●mediately after her Husband's Death as soon as Reasons of state did cease to hinder Arg. 4. This is agreeable with the reports which I and others have met with in the publick place of his conversation for divers years towards his last I took my pension in Paris neer Cleromont College in which P●ta●●ius h●d then a being and all I could learn from ●y inquiry was truly this that all took Grotius for a person of imparallel'd abilities in every kind but yet extremely to be lamented as one who could not be brought into the bosom of the Church that is to say they could not perswade him to be a Papist And I was lately assured by Mr Castiglio a learned person and a religious and so a very true speaker that in a conference which he had with some Augustine Friers with whom he travelled he found that Gro●ius was an heretick in their ●steem as much as any other Protestants who were not followers of Calvin And I am very much mistaken if that which Mr Knott hath cited from Grotius p. 167. against Mr Chillingworth is not purposely ci●ed as from one of our own sid● I have also been told by a worthy person of● a message sent from Groti●s to Doctor Cous●n● that he should die in the Faith of the Church of England But because I want the same evidence of this which I am sure I have of other things I do not urge it as any new Argument Arg. 5. But it is to me● another Argument and of very great moment that so judicious an Author as Docto● Hammond Dr. Ham. Cont. of Def. of H. Grot. p. 25. in his Continuation of the Defence of Grotiu● did think he had g●ound sufficient to say what follows viz. That Grotiu● had alwayes a sig●al val●e and kindness for this ou● Englis● Church and Natio● expressing his opinion that of all Churches in the world it was the most careful observer and transcriber of Primitive antiquity and more then intimating his desire to end his d●●y●s in the bos●m● and com●uni●● of our M●r●e● Now because it is added by so credible a speaker as Doctor Hammond that * Ibid. of this he wants not store of witnesses who from time to time had heard it from his own mo●●h whil'st he was Ambassadour in France and even in his return to Sweden immediately before his death and because my witnesses befo●e mentioned are distinct from his who yet agree in the thing attested I have added his intelligence as a very good Argument to back mine own which having said I proceed to argue as I began from several testimonies of Grotius concerning himself G●ot A●nal l. 1. p. 8 9 10 11 12. Arg. 6. As in his Annals de rebus Belgicis he strictly censures the corruptions which by little and little the Popes had obtruded upon the Church and discovers the Need of Reformation into which Christendom had been brought by the power and prevalence of those corruptions so likewise in his Histories which I have reason to believe were some of the last things he perfected he clearly sides with our Engl●sh Protestants against the pretentions of Religion which came from Rome P●aemium addidit sceleri scelerum immunitatem etiam apud Deum atque alia id genus ludibria quae rudibus seculis haud invalida nunc tantùm in spec●em dantur in speciem accipiuntur c.

to our invitations we cannot do less than declare that we cannot help it We are no rigid exactors of Reparation Do but return to our Communion and we are satisfied Do but accept of our forgiveness and we are pleas'd If you cannot agree with us in every act of our obedience to the established Canons of the Church at least come back to that station from whence you fell and no small matter shall ever part us The Church of England j●stified by the Confessions of her Deserters 4. You profess to be for Bishops as well as we p. 5. you acknowledge a stinted Liturgy is in it self lawful and that in some parts of p●blick holy service it is ordinarily necessary and that in the parts where it is not of necessity it may not onely be submitted to but desired when the peace of the Church requireth it that the Ministers and Churches which earnestly desire it should not by the Magistrate be absolutely for●idden the use of a convenient prescribed Liturgy c. p. 358.359 Nay farther yet you do acknowledge That the use of the Surplice b●ing commanded by the Magistrate you would obey him and wear that Garment if you could not be dispensed with Yea though secundarily the whiteness be to signify purity and so it be made a teaching sign yet would you obey p. 409.410 Next for kneeling at the Sacrament you say that as sinfully as this gesture was imposed you did for your part obey the imposers and would do if it were to do again rather then disturb the peace of the Church or be deprived of its Communion p. 411. You confess you see no reason to scruple at the lawfulness of the Ring in Marriage Ibid. You say that Organs or other Instruments of Musick in God's worship being a help partly natural and partly artificial to the exhilarating of the spirits for the pr●yse of God you know no argument to prove them simply unlawfull but what would prove a cup of wi●e unlawfull or the Tune and Meter and melody of singing un●awfull p. 412. Again for Holy-daies you confess That some time for God's worship besides the Lord's-day must be appointed and God having not told us which the Magistracy may on fit occasions Ibid. Nay for the great Holy-daies of t●e Church to which you have the most aversion such as celebrate the memorial of Christ's Nativity Circumcision Fasting Transfiguration Ascension and the like you freely profess to be resolved if you live where such Holy-daies as these are observed to censure no man for observing them nor would you deny them liberty to follow their judgement if you had the power of their Liberties c. p. 416. Yea more if you lived under a Government that per●mptorily commanded it you would observe the outward rest of such a Holy-day and you would preach on it and joyn with the Assemblies in Gods worship on it p. 417. For the name and form of an Altar you think it a thing indifferent whether the Table stand this way or that way The primitive Churches you confess used commonly the names of Sacrifice and Altar and Priest and you think lawfully and you will not be he that shall condemn them p. 417. Last of all for the Cross in Baptisme which you have most suspected to be unlawfull you dare not peremptorily say it is unlawfull nor will you condemn the Ancients and Moderns that use it nor will you make any disturbance in the Church about it p. 418. 5. After all these acknowledgments many more in other places I wonder how you can excuse your departure from us The P●esbyterian Sep●r●tists apparently unexcusable or what should keep you from your return Will you not live in Communion with us because we observe the Rites and Orders of the Church which you confess to be very innocent Or do you abandon what is innocent because we use it Are our Bishops the worse for being derived from the Apostles as our Reverend Dr. Gauden hath lately proved by an induction Are they the worse for being in England ever since the first time that Christianity was planted Or the wor●e for being setled by the fundamental Lawes of the British land They are not the worse for being approved and contended fo● unto the death by the learnedst part and the most pious of the Reformed Churches of which our Confessors and Martyrs do make up a great and a noble Army That our Church was a true established Church in the year of our Lord 1641. You have so plentifully granted that 't is too late to deny They that * See Bishop Hali's peacem●ker Sect. 7. p. 58. flye out from a true established Church and run waies of their own raising and fomenting Sects and Schisms amongst God's people are sent for their Doom by our late Reverend Bishop Hall to those notable words of the Apostle Rom. 16.17 18. And whether or no the Presbyterians have not thus flown out judge I pray by the † See Dr. Ham. of Schism ch 11. p. 178 181. last Chapter of Dr. Hammond's Treatise concerning Schism Or let the men of that way but lay their hands upon their hearts Now when you seem to have profited not a little by that excellent Preface of Dr. Sanderson wherein you are personally concerned in coming up so far as hath been shew'd to the most disputable things of the Church of England what can make you stand off at so great a distance what kind of answer will you return unto your own expostulations Shall the breach be healed or would you have it to continue If it must continue tell us why and how long Would you have it go with us to Eternity Do you censure us to Hell Or will you not goe with us to Heaven I pray return to us in time rather than wish you had done it when 't is too late Th●y are obnoxious to men of all sides for th●ir sin of Schism 6. You cannot charge any sort of men for having separated from you without incurring the same charge for having separated from us When Mr. Cawdry writ against Independency and gave it the Title of A great Schism I could not but smile at the retortion which Dr. Owen very speedily and ●itly made him Nay it is publickly declared by a great Body of congregationals * Praef. p. 13. That they did not break from the Presbyterians but the Presbyterians rather from them You are so far from agreeing with one another that you can never be expected to be at unity with your selves unless by being reconcil'd to the Church of England whose Calamities have obsc●r'd but not destroyed Her The sin of Schism is contracted saith the Judicious Dr. Hammond either by some irregularity of Actions loco supra citato contrary to the standing Rule and Canons of this Church or by Disobedience to some commands of Ecclesiastical Superiours And then by whom it is contracted I need not tell you But Blessed be God as