of a pure heart which vse no deceipt towardes their neighbours but in all their doinges shewe themselues to be veras oues pascuae Christi the true sheepe of the pasture of Iesus Christ who sayeth Bonus pastor animam suam dat pro ouibus suis A good shepheard giueth his life for his sheepe Few words but full of pith And neuer could moe things be spoken more compendiously For what will he refuse to doe what labour what trauaile what paine will he forsake which for that performance of that hee goeth about will not spare his owne life a This being true as it is thereupon it followeth that your popish Priests and prelates who neither haue skill nor will to performe this duty are no true sheepheards If a good shepheard setteth so great store by his sheepe if he loue them so tenderlie that he will rather loose his life then to see them in anie daunger what will hee not doe els for them Howe can it be otherwise but that hee will see his flocke fedde in wholsome pastures howe can it bee thought that hee will not tary with them to keepe them from wolues from dogges that fall to biting of them and from other like rauenous beastes Who woulde imagine him to bee so negligent that hee will not in the euening bring them home to the cote or folde Will hee not trowe you if any be strayed goe seeke him out and bring him againe to his fellowes If anie be sicke will hee not see him holpen with all diligence See therefore vvhat a great matter our Sauiour did comprehende and folde vp as it were and knit together in a bundell all that can be desired in a good herdesman O that gouernours whom god hath put in authoritie per quem reges regnant by whome kinges doe raigne who bad Peter if hee loued him to feede his sheepe who hath also constitute vnder him feeders vpon the earth some spirituall some temporall O I say that they woulde diligently looke vpon these wordes A good shepheard giueth his life for the sheepe and seriously ponder in their minde what a charge is hid in this short sentence how many things princeps pastorum the prince of shepheards as Peter calleth him doth require of them whom hee hath made herdsmen vnder him whose dutie is to be good pastours and faithfull feeders like to their master O that they would call to their minde that they must at length depart hence and come where it shall be said to euery one of them Redde rationem villicationis tuae Giue accompt of thy bayliwicke Come forth and shew how thou hast fedde my flocke that I committed to thy handes Thou Bishop how hast thou visited thy diocesse what Parsons what Vicares hast thou admitted Thou Archdeacon how often hast thou visited and seene euery curate to do his duty how hast thou redressed al enormities slaūders within thy iurisdictiō Thou parson thou vicar thou curate how hast thou fed thy flocke with good ensāples of charity vertuous liuing with keeping of hospitality to thy power by preaching wholsome doctrine in reuerently ministring my Sacramēts Thou king how hast thou ruled thy Realme What lawes hast thou made for the setting forth of my glory for the extirpation of heresies for maintenance of equity for punishment of wrong for prouision that things may be solde at a competent price that couetous men make no dearth to their condemnation when I giue plenty Thou Lord how hast thou gouerned vnder thy prince Thou man of worship how hast thou endeuoured to haue quietnes kept and the princes lawes to be obeyed Thou Iustice how hast thou ministred right indifferently to all persons Thou Maior or head officer in any Citty or Towne how hast thou kept thy selfe cleere from periury How hast thou seene good order obserued and all idlenes and dissolute maners to be banished Finally thou whatsoeuer officer or Magistrate thou be how hast thou regarded the common wealth preferred it afore thy priuate lucre or commodity O that these things were considered for as sure as God liueth these accōpts will he call vpon straightly None shall escape Cui multum datur as S. Gregory saith multum ab eo quaeretur He that hath much giuen him shall make a great accompt thereof and much shall be of him required And at that day percase he shall reckē himselfe most fortunate and happie that had least in this worlde and least to doe And he peraduenture most vnfortunate that hath most to doe in this world vnlesse hee order it well vnlesse hee order it righteously iustly and ordinately Now good Reader thou hast hearde that Christ saith Bonus pastor animā suā dat pro ouibus suis And to put thee out of doubt who is this good shepherde he saieth Ego sum pastor bonus cognosco oues meas cognoscunt me meae I am the good shepherd which will giue my life for my sheepe by my death to purchase them life that as I will rise and die no more so shall they after their bodily death arise at the last daie neuer to die any more but to liue alwaies with my father and me I knowe my sheepe not al onely that they be mine but I so know them for mine that I will be their succour in their tribulations I will strengthen them in their persecutions I will receaue them into my ioy and glory I know them and they know me This is then required of their sheepe that they knowe their shepherde Three properties must be in euery man or woman that shall haue this worthy name to be called a sheepe of Christ b These being as indeede they are the true properties of christs sheepe thereupō it must needes followe that he hath but fewe sheepe in the popish flocke The first propertie is that our Sauiour saieth that his sheepe doe know him This knowledge haue Christs sheepe of him that by his godheade he is their father by his manhoode he is their brother by his benefites he is their louing Lorde master c This and your doctrine of merits satisfaction and other by meanes besides Christ to erne your saluation by cannot stand together They know it is he none other that hath made their peace with God his father Ipse enim est pax nostra for he is our peace Ad Ephesios secundo he hath gotten vs forgeuenesse of our sinnes he hath deliuered vs out of the bondage of the deuil he hath purchased heauen for vs he is to vs Turris fortitudinis the tower of our strength The seconde propertie of Christes sheepe is to heare their shepheards voice and to giue no eare to the voice of any stranger You wil aske me peraduenture hovv you should heare him d This is more then euer all the sort of you can proue which although he be verily and bodily heere with vs in the Sacrament of the Aultar yet in his humane forme he is
this life to proue both the popish purgatory and praier for the dead let vs but take a vew first in what sence they haue spoken thereof how vncertainely and inconstantly And to begin with Origen both because hee was the ancienter because hee was first named in the very second place here quoted by Albin he speaketh of purging in the fire of hel and in the other of purging in such fire as will consume in them that hold the foundation their wood hay stubble that they built thereupon that so when their soules depart from their bodies they maie go to heauen which with those vnconsumed they cannot which consuming fire he saieth is God For his words in the latter place are these He that despiseth the purifications of the word of God and doctrine of the gospel reserueth himselfe to sorowful paineful purifications that the fire of hel in torments may purge him whō neither the Apostles doctrine nor word of the gospell hath purged And in the other preaching I am sure they wil graunt to men aliue and not to the dead his words the better to make thē to looke whiles they were aliue that they caried no wood hay nor stubble with thē vnconsumed be these if after Christ the foūdatiō thou buildest thereupō not gold siluer pretious stones only in the minde if thou hast any such but also hay wood stubble what wouldest thou be done with thee when thy soule shal be seperated frō the body Whither wilt thou with thy wood hay stubble enter in to the holy places and so defile the kingdome of God Or for thē tary without for the other leese thy reward which is not meet neither What followeth then but the first for these fire bee giuen thee to cōsume thē But God is the cōsuming fire of these whereupō a litle after he exhorts al mē that haue any such matter in them that they would know their owne faults in time amend them The first place is in his 8. booke and 11. chapter vpon the Romans and the other in 12. homily vpon Hieremie euen as Albine cyteth him Now who seeth not by this that the purging place that he speakes of in the second place is hell it selfe and that the other is in this life whiles Gods childrē warned in time whiles they are here doe let the fire of Gods spirite both reueale vnto them and consume in them all their vnsuteable building to the foūdation whither it be in religion or maners what places then were these vnles the papistes bee growen now to be of opinion that the partition wall betwixt hell and their purgatory is quite pulled downe and al become verie hell or else that their purgatorie is in this life to alleadge either for purgatory or praiers for the deade Further touching Origens fansies about purging after this life August de ciuitate Dei l. 21. c. 17. saith that the very diuell his angels after certaine grieuous and long lasting punishments shal be freed and deliuered from those torments and ioyned againe in society with the holy Angels as Origen beleeued And vpon Luke hom 14. Origen himselfe saieth I think after the resurrection from the dead we al shal stand neede of a sacrament to clēse and purge vs for none can arise againe without his defilings And vpō the 36. Ps hom 3. he writeth that he thought that it was needful that all should come into the purging fire though hee were Paul or Peter and of the same mind he seemeth to be vpō the Num. hom 25. which if you vnderstād of any purging fire of tribulatiō or of the inward effectuall operatiō of the fier of Gods spirit to lightē to purge consume our darke sinfull and erronious harts for so sometime hee and others of the ancient writers speake then these places make nothing for your purgatory which is after this life if otherwise you vnderstand him of some fire to purge after this life so neither is he anie procter for your purgatory to the which you sende onely the middle sort neither very good nor very bad A man therefore may wel think that you are neere driuen for proofes for your purgatorie or prayer for the dead when you run to these or anie such places in Origen that speaketh thereof so variablie and not onelie farre from your sence but sometimes euen in your owne iudgement aswel as in ours very heretically Now as for Augustine if what he hath writen of purgatory be well considered your arguments from him will proue as weake as from Origen For whereas some of you alleadge him vpon the 103. Psal serm 3. for purgatory it is plaine that he there speaketh of that purging by fire which he supposed would be in the end of the world whē all should be on fire and the good separated from the bad which fancy he rather chused to fall into then to holde with Origen that there is any purging in hell The same Augustine most commonly vnderstandeth that place of S. Paul 1. Cor. 3. of the fire of tribulalation and affliction wkereby men are tried and purged as he proueth out of the scripture in this life as golde in the fornace And as for a meane place of purging any betwixt death the iudgement he writeth sometimes confidently that there is none such and sometimes he leaueth it in doubt For in his fifth booke Hypognost against the Pelagians he acknowledgeth heauen to bee the place for the godly and hel-fire for the wicked but a third place saieth he we are altogither ignorant of neither doe we finde any in the holy scriptures In like sort de verbis Apostoli ser 14. he acknowledgeth these two againe but a middle place hee vtterlie denieth because there is no mention thereof in the gospell I know it is answered that when he saieth thus hee setteth himselfe against the Pelagians third place which they assigned for infants dying vnbaptised But then yet I reply and say if hee had beene resolued of the popish third place purgatorie hee would and should haue saied there was no fourth place and not no third if to this it bee reioyned as I know it is by some that he disputed not there whither there were any more places then two before the last iudgement but whither there were any more then two euerlasting receptacles after that iudgement also to continue and that in that sence onely he was resolute there was but two how then will they shift that of his de ciuitate Dei lib. 13. cap. 8. where deuiding all that die into good and bad immediately vpon their death he saieth that the soules of the Godly separated from their bodies are in rest and the soules of the other are in paines whiles the bodies of those rise againe to euerlasting life and the others to euerlasting paine which is the second death For here they cannot deny he speaketh of the time state of soules before the
pulled downe and they cast out and those that did offer sacrifice vnto theÌ„ grieuously punished then saieth he the iustice is not certaine through the pâ—ssion or for hauing suffered death but the death and passion is glorious when it is for the sustaining of the true faith And therefore saieth he our sauiour because he would not haue the simple deceiued vnder this colour of trueth he did not onely say blessed are those that suffer but hee added for iustice But this can in no wise be attributed vnto those heretiques that suffer to seperate the vnion and concorde of the Catholique church c In that booke it appears these Donatists did indeed complaine and yet brag of their persecutioÌ„s but thus much I finde not there testified against them or of theÌ„ In his booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum he writeth to this effect of them And in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae contra Epistolam Petiliani he doeth write that the Donatists which were a sect of heretiques that raigned in his time to confirme their doctrine they did not attende that others should put them to death but they did cast them selues downe from high places others did burne themselues in the fire to be honoured after their death as Martyrs and that is more they did threaten men if they would not kill them d He writes in that epistle no such thing you had the worst lucke in quoting of your testimonies that euer had aâ—y for 3. for one you cite wrâ—ng S. Cyprian in like maner doeth write in the first booke of his Epistles in the first Epistle that though an heretique suffer death for Christ that doeth not confirme him as a Martyr but that his death is the very punishment of his errourâ— and that he cannot go to heauen which is the mansion of the humble for seeing that he doeth seperate himselfe froÌ„ the house of peace which is the church yee know well of what church he doeth speake that he cannot be receaued into heaueÌ„ c. All those that haue writen the histories of the BohemiaÌ„s doe say that in the time of e Zischâ— was a famouâ— souldier captain but minister he was none one Zischa a martial minister of the heresie of the Heborits or Hussites there were a certaine sect of heretiques called Adamites like vnto the olde heresie of the Nicholaites for they did saie as these doe that mens wiues should bee common and they vvent all naked euery one taking the woman hee liked best whom hee did carie vnto their minister and before him hee did saie the holie ghost doeth inspire me to lie with this person then the saied reuerent father did giue him his blessing saying Increase and multiplie and so they went awaie This aboue named Zischa although hee had done a number of wicked deedes yet hee determined to abolish and take awaie this sect f And therefore popish traytours that are executed amongst vâ— for high treason though they seeme to take their death neuer so patiently we lawfully couÌ„â— call tâ—aitours though you â—anonize them for Saints and so he caused two women to be burnt for this abhomination the which two notwithstanding the torment of the fire did sing and giue thankes to God for that it had pleased him to permit them to die for so holy so iust a quarrell Did not Michael Seruet who was once master Caluins dearling rather desire to suffer at Geneua then he would confesse that Christ was God and yet notwithstanding his great patience or to saie the trueth diuilish obstinacy cannot be sufficient to make him a Martyr nor to perswade you to beleeue his doctrine g What need all these seing none of vs euer stande vpon the bare sufferings of meÌ„ no more then you you should yet haue named the places where these things are writen and not thus haue sent vs to seeke we cannot tell where There is a certaine minister of the Lutherans called Ioachim Westphall who in a worke of his doeth mocke at Caluin who did vaunt that within these fiue years aboue an hundred had suffered death to sustaine the Gospell of Geneua and he doeth answere him at large prouing that the sect and doctrine of the saied place ought not to bee approued for the multitude of false martyrs for the Anabaptists whoÌ„ he doeth iustly coÌ„deÌ„ne haue had of their sect a great many more for in lesse theÌ„ three years there haue suffered a great number more then euer there did suffer of Caluinists in fifteene And to conclude this matter the saied Westphal doeth say that the deuill hath his Martyrs euen as well as God with whom like a good sergeant he doeth march giuing the vauÌ„tward vnto the martyrs of the Caluinists that haue suffered at Geneua h The more to blame are they if they should say so but though heat of contentioÌ„ caused Westphalê° to write so bitterly I thinke very few will ioyne with him in this iudgemeÌ„t sure I am they whom you cal Caluinists doe not iudge so of them because of that 1. Co. â— v. 15 So that if one demaund of the Lutherans whither go those that die in the Religion of Caluin of Beza or of the Anabaptists they saie to the Diuell And if one demande of the Caluinists in like maner whither go the Anabaptists and the Lutherans they saie likewise to the Diuell And who would put the like question to the Anabaptists I am assured they would saie at the others to the Diuell For my part I beleeue you I assure you all three i This argueth a most diuelish and profane spirit in the writer And seeing that yee agree so well that one serue for an others harbenger we were very fooles if wee should stay your passage but let you go all to the Diuell for company for I thinke if you were all gone our debates would cease and hell would be so full that the deuill would long for no more The XXXI Chapter YOu neede not to tell vs that Augustine and Chrysostome haue taught that it is not the death but the cause that maketh a martyr For we know that to be a most certaine trueth and the generall doctrine of all good writers both olde and new and therefore you might haue spared your paines bestowed in the proofe of this And therefore most willingly wee acknowledge as Christ hath taught vs that onely they are blessed martyrs that suffer for righteousnes sake Mat. 5. and none to be martyrs howe patientlie soeuer they seeme to suffer their deathes that by for an il cause either in life or doctrine And yet we are not ignorant that many haue died in lewde and for lewd opinions who yet haue seemed to die willingly and cherefully and therefore wee deny not but that it may be true that some such wicked women of that beastlie heresie of the Adamites were put to death in Zischaes time in Bohemia died as you write and
oft in this your booke and the rest of your side continually beare the simple reader and vnlearned Christian in hand that before Luther there were none of our religion that haue so condemned your Church and religion as we doe I wil vouchsafe for the better inabling of euery one that shall read this my answere to see your vanity and impiety though this which I haue noted already be sufficient to lay open your folly to proceed yet somewhat further in this matter Wherefore to go on in the course of times though your popish Church hath bene in her ruffe and at the heighest that euer she was this latter 400 yeares yet we are able to shew that there haue bene many euen in this time from time to time and that in sundry places that haue ioyned with vs against you that therefore there is no such newnesse or strangenes in our religion a d doings as you would make the ignorant beleeue For in the dayes of Gregory the 9 in the yeare 1230 the Greeke Church and other Easterne Churches did quite forsake communion with yours who euer since ioyne with vs in a number of thinges against you as namely in withstanding the supremacy of your Romish Bishop as appeareth not onely by one Epistle that Germanus Petriarch of Constantinople wrote vnto the pope in the yeare 1237 but also by a large booke writen about the yeare 1384 by Nilus Archbishop of Thessalonica wherein he doeth not onely confute his Supremacy euen as we doe but also he enueigheth against al those that hold communion with the Popish or latin Church And as it appeareth in ancient record in the Church of Herford wherein 29 of the Articles wherein they differ from the Church of Rome are set downe they ioine not only with vs in this point in seperating thēselues frō the Romish Church in denying the popes supremacie which is the very foundation of your Church and religion but also in denying purgatory and masses for the dead in holding it lawfull for their ministers to enioy the benefit of matrimony in not vsing any priuate masse in not denying the cup to any that receaue in not ministring the communion in priuate houses in not vsing extreme vnction and in sundry other points And by diuers Epistles writen from thence of late extant in print both in greeke and latin to Chitreus and other Germans it euidently appeareth that they ioyne with vs against the Romish Church in many other great and weighty points of our religiō and that great hope there is that they might easily be brought to ioyne with vs in the rest Besides these Easterne churches euē here in these westerne parts euident it is that there haue beene many great learned and famous persons with innumerable followers at all tymes from age to age in these latter 400 yeares when the tyranny of your popes to represse them hath bene the greatest and strongest that euer it was which yet haue openly with vs stood forth against them and their religion For Fredericke the second as diuers other Emperours had beene before him as namely Constantine the 5. Leo his sonne and Constantine the 6 in the East and Henry the 4 and 5 in the West was a notable Antagonist of the 3 popes in his time contending against them to maintaine the authority of Christian princes against their vsurped Supremacy ouer them about the yeare 1260 as notoriously the Cronicles of those times writen by your owne men Platina Sabelicus and others declare And 20 years before that Krātzius testifieth in his history that there were many that preached openly in Sueuia that the Pope was an heretique his clergy Symoniakes and generally they all seducers of the people Ten yeares after that florished Arnoldus De nouâ villâ a Spaniard who taught that Sathā had thē seduced the world that the faith thē taught was but such as deuils had meaning belike a bare historicall faith that the pope led men to hell that he and his clergy did falsifie the doctrine of Christ that masses were naught not to be saied for the dead c. and therefore your popish Church condemned him for an heretique Much what about the same time was Gulielmus De Sancto amore a master and chiefe ruler then in Paris who went as farre as Arnoldus applying the same Scriptures which concerne Antichrist as we doe to the pope and his clergy and therefore hee also was condemned for an heretique and his bookes burnt by your popish rout And in the yeare 1260 Laurentius Anglicus a master of Paris also tooke this Williams part against the pope wrote a booke in his defence In the yeare 1290 Petrus Iohānes a Minorite directly preached the pope to be Antichrist and Rome great Babylon and therefore he was burnt after he was dead 30 yeares and more before this Robert Grosthead a famous learned man and Bishop of Lincolne for hee died in the yeare one thousand two hunderd fifty three was a great withstander of the popes tyranny and three dayes before his death hauing conference with his clergy he laboureth to make them see by sundry demonstrations that the pope was Antichrist and his doings Antichristian King Philip of France about the yeare one thousand three hundred was a great withstander of the Supremacy which now the Pope challengeth and a resister in his dominions of sundry of his enormities and William Nagareta and the prelates of France then ioyned with their king against the pope Grosthead this king Philip and his clergy as afterward king Edward the 3. king of England in the yeare 1346 despised the popes curse appealed frō him to God There is in an ancient Chronicle of S. Albons a notable Epistle of one Cassiodorus to the Church of England wherein are layed forth a number of lamentable abuses in the Roman Church in the yeare one thousand three hundred twenty eight In the Extrauagants we reade that Marsillius Patauinus Iohannes de Ganduno Michael Chesenas Petrus de Carborea and Iohannes de Poliaco all great learned men were condemned by the Pope for preaching against his Supremacy and other errours of that Church of his about the yeare 1326. There were thē also many learned mē more that disputed wrote against his Supremacy which took part with Ludouicke the Emperour against him as William Occam Luitpoldus Andreas Landanensis Vlricus Hangenor the Emperors treasurer and others Dante 's liuing in the yeare one thousand three hundred wrote against the Pope the orders of religious men and the Doctours of the Decrees saying that these were three great enemies to the trueth he flatly hath left in writing in his cāticle of Purgatory that the Pope of a pastor was become a woulfe that he was the whoar of Babylon In the yeare 1350. Gregory Ariminensis Andreas de Castro and Burdianus taught as we doe against your doctrine of freewill and merites Taulerus then a preacher in Argentine preached openly against your doctrine
ouer all Christendome were not vacant they did not for their debates let to administer the precious body of Iesus and the rest of the Sacramentes to preach and teach the people doing manie other godly deedes d This is notoriously false as the stories witnes at sundry times when there were two or three Popes together each hauing his faction and one banning the other And to be briefe the Ciuill dissention at Rome did not cause the rest of the people throughout Christendome to breake the vnitie of their faith which they held before their discordes The ambition of the Popes of Rome was in nothing preiudiciall vnto those that helde the integritie of their faith nor through the reason of their ill gouernance our Sauiour Christ did not lose his rightful inheritance The VIII Chapter THat which is further alleadged in this Chapter to proue that Scribes and Pharisies must be heard and obeyed sitting in Moises chaire notwithstanding their ill liues doeth nothing at all serue to proue that your lewd Popes were to be heard and obeyed For to sit in Moises chaire is not as you imagine to succeed him in place or office but in teaching the trueth as he did and so your wicked Popes that we speake against neuer sate in Moises chaire nor in the Chaire of any Apostle or Apostolique man but in the Chaire seate in respect of their doctrine of the whore of Babylō But by that you afterwards remember of Caiphas Balaams prophecies it should seeme you were of opinion that to preach and to holde the trueth is inseperable from your Popes Chaire and office and that therefore it may not be imagined but that how lewd soeuer they were they could not but prophecy teach the trueth because these in the places by you mentioned notwithstanding they were lewde men did Indeed very fitly might your Popes these many yeares be cōpared vnto these two they resemble the one so fitly in crucifying Christ againe in his mēbers and the other in seeking to curse the people of God for filthy lucre But that vpon these particuler facts of theirs it should follow as therupon you would seeme to infer that least the Harmony of the misticall body of Christ should be brokē God alwaies hath guided the mouthes of your Popes so that they could not erre in iudgement I see no reason at al. For out of particuler facts rare vncertaine you cōclude a general and constant rule Doeth it folow thinke you Pilates wife learned by her dreame that Christ was innocēt therfore womēs dreams are alwaies true Daniel a young childe found out the vnrighteous iudgement of the iudges therefore young children alwaies shall be able to doe the like Or to cōe to your own exāples doth it follow that because Caiphas Balaā prophecied right therfore neither they themselues at other times could erre nor any of that office The Scripture testifieth the cōtrary For the same Caiphas iudicially pronoūced our sauiour to be a blasphemer Mat. 26. Paul Act. 23. chargeth Ananias sitting there iudicially as hie priest as he had iust cause to giue iudgmēt cōtrary to the law in cōmāding him to be smittē And howsoeuer Balaā the false prophet prophecied there wel it is euident by the text that it was sore against his will and that it came to passe by Gods especial power in guiding bridling his tongue And yet it appeareth after that the same Balaā by his wicked counsaile was cause of that trespasse cōcerning Peor Nūb. 31. and you may read 1. King 22. that 400. false prophets prophecied vntruly to Ahab I doubt not but God when it pleaseth him can cause your Popes as he caused these how wicked soeuer to speake the trueth For Iudas after he had betrayed his master yet before he hanged himselfe iustified his master and the Deuils thēselues oftentimes in the Gospel acknowledge Christ aright to be the son of God but thereupon it followeth not because he can doe it that therefore he wil do it alwaies hath nay rather that which is prophesied 2. Thess 2. is verified in your Popes because they receiued not the loue of the trueth therefore God sent thē strong delusiōs that they should beleeue lies for according to this faith they haue spoken O what horrible intollerable blasphemy did your hart cōceiue your pen to your perpetual infamy vtter when vpon occasion of Caiphas prophecy vttered by him either not woting what he saied or rather as Cyril in his 8. booke vpō Iohn Chap. 3. noteth hauing a malitious purpose thereby to persuade the Iews that it was expedient to put Christ to death least the whole nation should bee destroied by the Romans you doe set downe these words that Christ did confirme his pontificate with the gifte of prophecy with the which hee was as fully inspired as Dauid Esay or any of the rest O what iniury in these wordes haue you done to those holy prophets and to the Spirit of God in them as thus to match them with this cursed hell-hounde Wee must holde that they were indued with the Spirit in such measure as that in their writings and sayings wee must be sure they did not erre or els the ground of our faith which is their writinges is shaken whereas this wretch euen the same yeare as I haue shewed you pronounced Christ to bee a blasphemer and therefore most deuilishly erred And indeede hee was wholy destitute of the Spirit of God not onely then but euen in this also for as I noted before out of Cyrill he in vttering of those words had a deuilish meaning and intent though God by his secret power so ordered his speech as that his wordes might also cary this sence that it was expedient that Christ should die for the saluation of man as there also the same Cyrill obserueth And therefore for this he is no more to be saied to haue had the Spirit of trueth to direct him then you may say the deuils and Iudas had that I spoke of before Why then doeth S. Iohn vpon these wordes of his giue this note that he was high Priest that yeare because it pleased God so to tēper his wordes vnware to him that whereas he spake to hasten the death of our sauiour his word sounded that the people should vtterly perish without the death of Christ which was most true but not his meaning By this monstrous comparison of yours we may learne that it is no marueile that you that durst make this beastly comparison dare compare your pastours and Bishops how wicked soeuer both for life and iudgement in Religion which the ancient true pastours of Christs Church Yet hereby you haue taught vs to trust your lofty and swelling comparisons the worse as long as we liue You striue with your owne shadow in labouring to proue that the effect or fruite of the ministry of the word and sacraments dependeth not vpon the life of the minister For it is a
to abridge them of their wil and to resist their tyrannicall oppressions then they laboured practised by all meanes to hamper them also in so much that certaine it is that Gregorie the 7. excommunicated Henry the 4. or as some write 3. about the year 1078. gaue his empire to Rodolph who missing of it being slain the Emperour yet to be recoÌ„ciled with the Pope waited 3. daies 3. nights in the winter with his wife and child at the gates of Canossus and within the suburbes thereof barefoote barelegged before he could come to the speech of the Pope when he had obteined that then he was faine to kisse his foote and to yeelde vp his crowne into his hands to take it againe vpon such conditions as it pleased him to prescribe and yet his successour Pascalis raged against the same Emperour againe set vp his owne naturall sonne Henry to depriue his father of his Empire Who when he had got it yet he was in the ende accursed and excommunicated by that Romish see as his father had beene and not preuailing sufficiently that way the Saxons at last were set vp to warre against him and depose him And thus they hauing hampered these two HeÌ„ries vnto Frederick Barbarossa came which was about the yeare 1155. they did what they listed who beganne somewhat againe to abridge them of their vsurped supremacy and so did his sons sonne Frederick the 2. but in the ende Alexander the third brought the necke of the first vnder his feete in S. Marks church in Venice and Pope Adrian controlde him from holding his wrong stirrop excommunicated him for being so saucy as to set his name in writing before his and the other was miserably vexed by Honorius the 3. Gregory the 9. and Innocent the 4. For the first of these interdicted him the second excommunicated him twise raised the Venetians against him and the third did in the end spoile him of his Empire caused him to be poisoned and at length strangled by one MaÌ„fredus Innocent the 3. in the minority of Frederick the second and before he was chosen Emperour dealt in like sort with Philip and Otho the 4. placing them and displacing them at his pleasure Frederick the seconds sonne called Conrade and the next of his line also called Conradine were amongst theÌ„ miserably abused for the first of them was soone dispatched they stirring vp against him the LaÌ„tgraue of Turing who droue him into his kingdome of Naples where he died of poisoÌ„ giueÌ„ him as some write the other claiming but the kingdome of Naples after his death the matter was so handled they stirring vp Charles the French Kinges brother against him that both he Frederick Duke of Austria were takeÌ„ imprisoned in the end beheaded HeÌ„ry the 6. Frederick the firsts son Pope Celestine the 3. crowned at Rome but in such sort that with his foote he put the croune vpon his head therewith he spurned it of againe And the like that happened to Frederick had almost befalleÌ„ Philip the FreÌ„ch king by Pope Boniface the 8. who because he could not haue whatsoeuer commodities he demaunded out of France by his bull denouÌ„ced sentence of deposition against the saied King Philip and gaue the title thereof to one Albertus king of the Romans â—â—t for all the roaring of that bull Philip kept his place still AlexaÌ„der the 3. that trode vpon Frederick the firsts necke at Venice euen here in England so farre abused King Henry the 2. about Thomas Beckets death that he caused him to go for penaunce barefoote in winter with bleeding feete to his tombe And Innocent the third caused King Iohn his sonne after that 7. yeares he had resisted their supremacy tyranny by the meanes of his excommunicatioÌ„s indicements of his land and encouraging of his subiects against him to surrender his croune to the hands of his Legat Pandelphus and so he continued fiue daies before hee receiued it againe and then was glad to take it in farme of him for a rent by indenture Infinit be the villanies that haue bene offered done by that see to Emperours and Kings For did not Gregory the 7. to the great iniury of the Empire set vp Robert Wisard and made him King of Sicilia and Duke of Capua Did not Pope Vrbane the second put downe Hugo an Earle in Italy discharging his subiects from their oath and obedience vnto him Did not Pope Clement the fift most despitefully cause Franciscus Dandalus the VenetiaÌ„ embassadour suing but for absolution of Venice from the Popes curse to lie a long time first tied by the neck in a chaine vnder his table like a dogge before he would harken to his request Furthermore Gelasius the second brought the noble captaine Cintius so vnder that he was glad lying prostrate before him to kisse his feete and by the yeare 1237 the Pope Gregorie the 9. had so cursed king Henry the 3 king here of EnglaÌ„d that he was glad to currie fauour with him to receiue a Legat of his called Cardinal Otho meeting him at the sea side that in most lowly maner bowing downe his head in low curtesie towards his knees And though he yeelded wonderfull submission to the next Pope Innocent the 4. yet he tooke of one Dauid Prince of Northwales 500. marks by the yeare to set him against the King of England exempted him his welshmen from their fealty which they had sworne vnto him before Most intolerable were the exactioÌ„s coÌ„modities that one way other the Popes for theÌ„selues their frends had out of EnglaÌ„d in Henry the 2. king Iohns HeÌ„ry the thirds time they exceeded ofteÌ„ as it appeareth in the stories the ancieÌ„t reuenues of the crowne wonderfully empouerished the land yet wheÌ„ these kings though in neuer so huÌ„ble maner at any time neuer so litle sought to stay these pillages oppressioÌ„s of the laÌ„d the Popes raged most extreamly against theÌ„ did theÌ„ what despite they could vntill they had their will Yea so intolerable hath beene their pride insoleÌ„cy against kings Emperors that they haue brought theÌ„ to lead their horses by the bridle to waite on theÌ„ on foot like lackies they riding like high mighty princes ouer theÌ„ they haue made theÌ„ faine to please theÌ„ withal to hold theÌ„ water to serue at their table And though their power bee not as it hath beene yet 〈◊〉 â—lice and will to trample Princes vnder their feete is as 〈◊〉 as euer it was and therefore not onely haue Pius 5. and Gregory the 13. by their cursed buls roared against our gratious soueraigne Lady Queene Elizabeth that now is thereby labouring her deposition but also both secretely and openly a number of waies they and their fauourits haue gone about both by opeÌ„ hostility and priuy conspiracies to bring that their wicked purpose to passe yea though it were by the shedding of her innocent
that it is possible that such filthy heretiques as Seruetus was may shewe themselues stout in dying But what is all this to proue that our martyrs haue broken the vnion of the Catholique Church or that they died as heretiques for heresie Before you can say any thing to the purpose either to proue them no true martyrs or to blemish their patience you should haue proued that their cause and religion for which they died was not the sound Christian trueth and faith but that you wil neuer bee able to doe And therefore both al this and what els you haue noted though falsely for there is no such thing in either of these two places out of Augustine contra Epistolam Petiliani of the Donatistes forwardnesse to die and out of Cyprians first booke of Epistles falleth downe to the ground as needles besides the questiō For whatsoeuer they there spake they spake it of heretickes therfore it hath no force against vs vntil you can proue vs so in alleadging Cypriās testimony by the way of parēthesis you say we know of what Church hee spake when hee sayed the heretiques that hee wrote of could not bee saued because they separated themselues from the Church the house of peace Indeed wee knowe that hee ment not your Church which is a bloudie house a house of warre cōtentiō a house of error superstitiō but the Church of Christ that was in his time to with yours is not so like as a drunken man is to a sober discreet man or a whore vnto an honest matrone for there is likelihood in substāce though not in quality yours is vnlike to the Church then in both Zischa you cal a martial minister of the Heborites or Hussites you would say or at least I am sure you should say a noble martiall Captaine for minister he was none of them whom their malitious enimies nickenamed Thaborites or Hussites for so they were called not as you call them At your pleasure you call Michael Seruet Caluins dearling but you cānot proue that he was euer in any such accoūt with Caluin why you should tearme him so But yet if he had beene so thorow his cunning in dissembling his heresie for a time the more commendation was it to Caluin that when he proued an obstinate heretique hee was so earnest and zealous in the cause of his God that all former affection set a part he furthered his due punishment as he did And for al your speech of his willingnes to die at Geneua and great patience in dying I cannot read but that he shunned death there as much as he could keeping or holding still his heresie and that thousands haue died on the gallowes for murder felonie and treason with as great shew of courage and patience as he But to let these things passe and to returne againe to your principall drifte in this which was as you shewe in the beginning of it to proue that neither our vocation nor religion could get any credit by the inuincible patience of our holy martyrs what hath bene saied as yet to proue this Your onely argument hitherto hath beene this The cause that a man dyeth for must bee good and hee must bee no heretique many heretiques haue dyed with great shew of patience Ergo c. This argument is starke naught for al these things in your antecedent may be graunted and yet of al them togither your conclusion followeth not These thinges which are not at al in question you haue proued but this that indeed should haue giuē life to your argument that ours died in and for an ill cause were heretiques which is indeede the thing onely in question like a wise man because you could not proue it you let alone But therfore you shall be contented for al your miserable crauing of it to bee granted you to be denied both it and your conclusion which without it you can neuer come vnto You will therefore proue as you make your reader beleeue that our Martyrs were such as died in an ill cause as heretiques and therefore went to hel But what be your proofes Ioachim Westphalus a Lutheran in a worke of his but it seemeth either you could not or would not tel vs in what worke for some politique reason you had doubtles mocked at Caluin for vaūting but where he made this vaunt or where we may finde it you tel vs not that within fiue yeares aboue an hundred had died for the religion of Geneua prouing vnto him that seeing there had beene far moe of the Anabaptistes put to death in lesse space and that the Deuill had his Martyrs his religion was no whit confirmed or countenanced by his Martyrs but they might for all his bragge be in the vauntgard of the Deuils martyrs What a miserable argument is this A contentious man in the heat of his contention saied thus to disgrace his aduersary and his side therefore therupon it shall follow that it was well and truely saied of him I thinke you will grāt me that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were good men both yet in heat of contention one against another Epiphanius burst out into such choler as he saied that he hoped the other should neuer die bishop to whō Chrysostōe answered as angerly again that he trusted the other should neuer returne aliue into his own cuntrey of Cypres infinite be the examples whereby we may see that men otherwise haue in heate of contention marueylously ouershot themselues one against another And therefore God forbid that vpon euery speach of disgrace vttered in such a case by one against another should by and by a firme argument be gathered that it is euen so as the one hath saied of the other But you will say you stād not so much vpō his speach against Caluins Martyrs as vpō that that there were mo of the Anabaptists that had died in a shorter space then he talked of and that otherwise the deuil hath had his martyrs which we cānot deny Hereupon indeed it followeth that an argument drawen to iustifie an opinion and the followers of it from the bare death and shew of patience of them that hold it is not good but so did neuer any of vs reason For first we labour to proue the cause good and that done then in the patience of such as haue died in so good cause togither with the cause we take comfort And yet in trueth we are sure we may speak it to the glory of God there were neuer either so many or any that so patiently died for any other opinion or opinions whatsoeuer as first and last died for the testimony of our religion For we account all them ours that haue from the beginning died for the glorious cause of the Gospell of Iesus Christ and in that we are able by the Scriptures to proue our religion to be the same we are sure we are not deceiued in our account In the conclusion of this Chapter to
brother Caesarius oratione septima Ambrose for Valentian de obitu Valentiniani And for Theodosius de obitu eius and Augustine for his mother lib. confess 9. Cap. 13. Yea as William of Westminster reports in his story thus Charles the great about 800. years after Christ wrote to one Offa king here of Mercta to desire him that praiers might bee made for Pope Adrian nullam habētes dubitationem beatā illius animam esse in requie sed vt fidem dilectionem ostendamus in amicum nobis charissimum not doubting saieth he but that his blessed soule is in rest but to declare our faith and loue towardes our most deare frend Wherein they did as if a tender tutor ouer his pupill though hee knowe the childes parentes of themselues will more carefully and tenderly looke to their childe comming home vnto them from the vniuersity then euer hee did or coulde yet writing vnto them to shewe his loue towardes his scholler shoulde desire them to vse him louinglie and kindely Howsoeuer it cannot be denyed but that this was somewhat more then needed and was some occasion of further proceeding from step to step vntill there were too too playne groundes layed of popish kinde of praying for the dead yet euery man most easily may espie that this kinde of praying for the dead can neuer kindle either the fire of popish purgatory or iustifie their kinde of praying to relieue soules there Indeed it should seeme by Aerius his opposing himselfe against praying for the dead as it appeareth in Epiphanius hee did some by that time mistaking these kindes of praying for them that I haue spoken of and stretching the examples thereof further then they should at least as Aerius vnderstood them tooke vpon them so to pray for the dead that howsoeuer a man liued and died yet after he was gone by the prayers of his frendes it was thought that he should doe wel inough Against which kinde of praying for them he inueigheth as against the bane of all godlinesse and religion but herein by Epiphanius it appeareth he faulted that this being but either the opinion of the ignorant multitude or his owne onely misconstruing the Churches fashiō in remembring of the dead in their praiers or praiing for them he slanderously laied that to the charge of the Church Epiphanius therefore in answering of him laieth this downe for the ground of all the rest that those whō the Church praied for were with the Lord in rest and ioie which flatly sheweth that the Churches praying for the dead that he pleads for against Aerius maketh nothing for the popish praying for them or for purgatory But vpon this occasion AErius vrging this question whither the praiers of men aliue did profit the dead and if they did whither so far as that thereby they were deliuered from al their sinnes thereunto Epiphanius both belike quite to condemne the opinion of the ignorant multitude yet loth also to defend that which he could not iustifie first answereth onely that the praiers made for thē were profitable thē that yet not so profitable as that therby al their sinnes were done away but neither doeth he simply and plainely answere that they were profitable to the dead themselues nor once take vpō him to aduouch that thereby some certaine sinnes may be put away but subtlely leauing these things thus in suspense he flyeth to other causes and reasons why they are profitable And the causes and reasons set downe by him are these first thereby comfortably their frends aliue are occasioned to beleeue that they that are dead are not perished but aliue with the Lord secondly that thereby may be nourished in the that liue this hope that the soules of thē that are so dead are as pilgrimes gone out of their bodies to be with the Lord and thirdly that by praying so euen for the best as for patriarches prophets Apostles and martyrs it may bee acknowledged that the best were offēders that so Christ alone may haue that preheminence to be a man without sinne that so all may see what neede they haue of Christ The very like reasons to these are yeelded by him that beareth the name of Dionysius the Ariopagite of the solemne prayers and solemnities remembred by him at the buriall of the dead cap. 7. Eccles Hierarchiae where of them that die he maketh but two sortes holy and prophane placing the holy company all of them aswell the imperfecter sort as the most perfect in blessed state in their soules immediately vpon their deathes and the other in woe and eternall misery And yet he alloweth not onely for the former sort thankesgiuing but also prayers to be made vnto God that for Christs sake their sinnes may be forgiuen them for the comfort and commonifaction of them that are aliue as Epiphanius did So that though in this case it be vsuall with the Papists to make great bragges of Epiphanius and this Demus yet if they bee thorowly looked into they are more against them then with them The like may be saied of the rest of the auncient fathers whom they most make shewe of in this point for howsoeuer some of them maie seeme to come somewhat too neare them in seeming in some sort to imagine that some good may growe to the departed towards the easing of them of some of their sinnes by the prayers of the faithfull for them after they be gone hence as it cannot bee denied but that Chrysostome Augustine and some others haue thought yet that they either placed all that they prayed for to haue any of their sinnes forgiuen thē in purgatorie or that they thought that soules so tormented there for sinnes vnsatisfied for here might thereby bee freed from their sinnes not fully pardoned them ere they went hence they shall neuer bee able to proue And yet these are the thinges that they must proue or else their maner of praying for the dead is left vnproued For with one voice euen they that otherwise seeme most to fauour them in this point holde that there is no purgation or clensing from sinne but onely in the bloud of Christ that here pardon of sinnes is to bee obtained or neuer and that after this life ended there is no bettering or altering the state of the departed before the last iudgement all which are positions whereof euery one is sufficient to quench the fire of the Popish purgatorie and to ouerthrowe their ende of praying for the dead For proofe whereof let vs but cōsider of these speeches and sayings of theirs amōgst an infinite nūber of like force vttered by thē The authour of those tracts of Iob commonly fathered of Origen from whence often they would seeme in this case to haue great furniture descrybing the fashion of the church in his time saieth in the third tract or booke we celebrate not the day of our natiuity seeing it is the entrance into sorrowe temptation but the day of our death as the very laying
for it as you would make men beleeue your prayers for the dead be For that had beene then furiously for a trifle to rage against the dead But alas master Albine both you and your fellowes are wonderfully deceaued in thinking that Cyprian meant here by oblation sacrifice and prayer as you doe For questionles by oblation and sacrifice he meant but the sacrifice of praise and thankesgiuing and therefore he saied not pro peccatis eius for his sins but pro dormitione eius for his sleeping and by praier not praier for to ease him of his sinnes but the publique and ordinary praier wherein then they vsed to make commemoration or remembrance of the godly brother departed the better to prouoke others thereby to imitate him which you might perceaue by his saying he deserueth not to be naÌ„ed in the praier of the Priest All which you might the better haue learned thus to vnderstande if you had remembred that the same Cyprian in his fourth booke of epistles epist 5. hauing spoken of certaine famous Martyrs Celerin Laurence and Ignatius addeth for these alwaies you remember wee offer sacrifices as oft as wee solemnize the passions and dayes of the Martyrs anniuersariâ commemoratione with a yearely commemoration For I am sure you holde that these were not in purgatory and that therefore these stoode in no neede to haue an oblation and sacrifice of the masse offered for them or praiers in your sence to be made for them Yea how can these otherwise be vnderstoode then of the oblation and sacrifice of thankesgiuing in the memorial or remembring the godly life and constant Christian death of such And so we neither dislike the practise of such thankful coÌ„memorations of the godly departed now nor deny that of ancient time for the comfort and instruction of them that were aliue that it hath beene vsed And of this offering of the oblation of praise and thankesgiuing for the faithfull departed very well may and must that be vnderstoode which vsually you alleadge so much out of the Lyturgies which you father vpoÌ„ Basil and Chrysostome For you know in offering it they teach you to offer it to God for those that are at rest in faith their elders their fathers patriarchs Prophets Apostles Euangelists Martyrs and for Mary the blessed Virgin her selfe For I hope you thinke not all these staÌ„d in neede to be offered praied for to be eased in purgatory And yet your praying for the dead your purgatory are right Hypocrates twins they must laugh and weepe togither they must stand and fal beginne and ende both at once I am sure you haue heard of Augustines saying Qui orat pro martyre iniuriam facit martyri he that prayeth for a martyr iniureth a martyr And therefore long after the councell of Bracchar in Spaine mentioneth onely a coÌ„memoration of the dead that die in the Lorde with Psalmes of thankesgiuing which it forbiddeth to be vsed for those that kill themselues or for their faults are put to death can 34. Indeede in that councell which was in the yeare of the Lorde 630. in the time of Honorius the first for I speake of the first held there I finde mentioÌ„ in the 39. Canon which is the last thereof not onely of a commemoration of the dead but of some offering when that was or when the feasts of martyrs in their memories were kept of mony or some other thing for the reliefe of the needy where order is taken for the receauing of it and bestowing of it which either were the free will offerings of the liuing to testifie their thankfulnesse to God for the good departure of the dead or bequests and legacies of the dead to the reliefe of the poore other holy vses against the staying detaining whereof the fourth Councell of Carthage and the second of Vase sharplie decreed And it appeareth in Iustinus martyrs second apologie that euen so long ago after the communion there was an oblation of almes giuen for such vses but he in neither of his apologies though therein hee shewe what the forme and maner of the Christians seruing of GOD then was of purpose once remembreth so much as any commemoration then made of the dead in their assemblies Of such offerings and oblations at the commemorations of the dead I noted before what the authour of the tractes vpon Iob commonly fathered vpon Origen hath saied Other oblation sacrifice or offering then these two of thanksegiuing and almes I cannot finde in any ancient and sound writer allowed The more are you to blame Master Albine that thorow the ambiguity of the wordes not vnderstoode of your simple Reader will make him beleeue that yet because Cyprian hath these words that therefore thereby he alloweth of your kinde of offerings oblations and sacrifice of the â—asse for the sinnes of the dead If there had beene aâ—â—â—â—ch vse of the Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ why haue none of the Apostles or Euangelists made any mention of it Or neither Christ nor they hauing spoken one word of anie such vse of it what reason is there that if there aftercoÌ„mers should without all warraÌ„t from any of them that we should be leeue them therein Surely whosoeuer he be that should especially also seeing we cannot finde how many kinde of sacrifices soeuer God for diuerse occasions in the old testament appointed that euer he appointed any or made any mention of any for the dead we would learne of Chrysostome euen therefore to say vnto him you see into what great absurdities men fall when they will not follow the Canon of the Scripture Homil 58. in Genesin and with Augustine though he were an Angel because of a matter of so great importance he speaketh without warraÌ„t either out of the old testameÌ„t or new he would boldly hold him accursed Contra literas petiliani lib. 3. cap. 6. But to auoide this I know because in a cause so gainefull for you you will not seeme to bee altogither destitute of Scripture the bookes of the Machabees euen to help you at a pinch in this case in spite of all good antiquity and trueth shall be Canonicall Scripture and Iudas Machabeus fact 2. Mach. 12. must be vrged not onely as a lawfull fact but as a president to warrant your offering and sacrificing to relieue soules in purgatorie And yet in very deede when you haue alleadged this fact of his neuer so much you shall finde your dealing herein as voide of credit out of the Scriptures of God as before For first certaine it is that these bookes are none of the Canon of the old testament as you know well enough Origen apud Eusebium lib. 6. c. 24. Athanasius in Synopsi Cyril Hierosolymitanus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nazianzene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hierom. in prologo Galeato Gregorius magnus libro 19. Cap. 17. vpon Iob the councell of Laodicea and diuerse others haue determined whose iudgements are inuincibly confirmed by the
being on your side but in that they were of ours as they were and as I haue saied wee christianly perswade our selues that their soules are in heauen And you fearing belike for all your cauilling that touching these ancient doctours confessours and martyrs that this would be our answere because you knew it might iustly be so you were content quickely to giue ouer the pursuit of this question and to aske vs this what wee thinke in our conscience of those that maintained cōfessed your faith Religion whither they be condemned or no And to feare vs from saying they be vpon the necke of this you aske vs if it were so why then was the bloud of Christ shed affirming confidently that if this were so that then it had beene better that Christ had neuer suffered This indeede I doe know to be one of your common bugges whereby you seeke to make the simple affraide either to forsake you or to ioyne with vs saying when you see men about thus to doe what will you condemne all your forefathers And to this end with manie words you āplifie the goodnes of the forefathers what an vnchristian cruelty it is to cōdemne all our ancient forefathers Before I come to the answering of which obiection I cannot but tell you that in setting downe so bluntly boldly as you haue that if they that confessed and maintained your Religion be condemned that then it had beene better that Christ neuer had died you haue vttered grosse intollerable blasphemy For though none such should be saued by the death of Christ thousand thousands both haue bene and shal be saued therby better it were that al such as you meane should for euer be condemned then that this speech of yours had any trueth in it But to answer this your obiection taken frō the dangerousnes of condēning forefathers because by the nāe of thē you keep men as you doe in your Romish and Babilonical captiuity first the reader is to vnderstand that an argument takē frō forefathers simply without distinction but as you doe this of yours in matters of Religion is not good For Ez. 20. we read that the Lord saied thus vnto his people walke not in the preceps of your fathers neither obserue their maners nor defile your selues with their idols And Dauid saieth Ps 78. Let thē not be as their forefathers were a disobediēt rebellious generatiō c. And the like warning the people had Psal 95. Zach. 1. Ier. 11. Whereupō Peter telleth the Christians to whom he wrote that by the bloud of Christ they were redeemed frō the vaine cōuersation of their fathers 1. Pet. 1. If this argument had beene good when Christ came sent his Apostles abroad to preach the gospell to al natiōs our forefathers in all natiōs then did ill in receiuing the doctrine of the gospell For their forefathers for some 1000. yeares before had held professed mainteined heathenish paganisme And it seemeth that many of the heathē then vsed this very argument of yours to keepe men in paganisme still For such an obiectiō I read both made by thē answered by Peter as it is writē Clemētis lib. 5. recognitionū by Ignatius ad Philadelphēses by Augustin in quaest veteris noui testamēti quaest 114. By this reason saied Peter as Clemēt reports it If a mans father be a thiefe or a bawde the child must be no other To such as saied they would beleeue no other gospell thē they foūd their forefathers had Ignatius answereth my antiquity is Iesus Christ whō not to obey is manifest damnation That which was before saieth Augustine the Paganes say cānot be bad To whom he answereth saying as though antiquity may preiudice trueth For thus might murderers wantons adulterers other lewd liuers defend their wickednesses because they are old haue beene frō the beginning saieth he So that both scripture reasō the ancient fathers themselues teach vs that it is not alwaies safe to cōtinue in the Religion wherein our forefathers liued died and so easily we may perceiue that this your argument how cōmon soeuer it be with you is of no force For it hath beene the old argument of Pagans doubtles is at this day the chiefe argument that keepeth Turks Jewes from yeelding to the Gospell least then they should condemne all their forefathers But as your argument is naught so your antecedent is false also For albeit that our Religion differ from yours as it doeth yet farre is it from vs that therefore we condemne all our forefathers For first we know that frō Christ wel near 1000. yeares they thē that professed Christ for the most part liued died holding the foūdatiō many other principall points of religiō with vs therfore of their saluatiō we doubt not Secondly euer since howsoeuer a nūmber fell away frō the trueth seemed wholy to be yours yet we are perswaded we know it to be true especially since Petrus Vald his time who was 400. yeares ago there haue beene great knowen multitudes openly ioyning with vs in the chiefest points of our religion dissenting frō you as I haue shewed before And when there seemed to be fewest yet we beleeue that that God that could did preserue vnto himself in the litle kingdom of Israel in such a miserable time asking Ahabs time was 7000. that there had not bowed their knees to Baal that the God I say euē whē popery seemed to haue preuailed most according to the comfortable visions that Iohn had to that end Apoc. 7. 14 yet had preserued vnto him in al the kingdomes and prouinces of the world infinite numbers that yet neither in forehead nor hand would beare the marke of the beast of all these we hope well also Thirdly euen concerning such of our forefathers as seemed to the world to be of your religiō we thinke a number also are saued For euen amongst them there are .3 sortes to be cōsidered The first sort are they that liued and died in all your grosse and erronious opiniōs The second are they that though a long time they seemed to liue in them yet ere they died God caused to see the vanity thereof at least cōcerning your doctrine of iustificatiō so through the sight of their sins in his mercy he brought them to die protesting that they trusted not to be saued in part nor in whole by their owne works or by any other meanes but onely by his free mercy through Iesus Christ alone The third sort is of them which though they were yours for some outward ceremonies that they were contented to vse with you in that they held some other fond opinions with you yet neuer ioined with you indeed in seeking for saluation little or much by any thing that you taught them to put their trust in that way but only looked for beleeued to attaine vnto it for that which Christ