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A00338 A very pleasaunt [and] fruitful diologe called the Epicure, made by that famous clerke Erasmus of Roterodame, newly translated. 1545; Colloquia. English. Selections Erasmus, Desiderius, d. 1536.; Gerrard, Philip. 1545 (1545) STC 10460; ESTC S113434 22,502 94

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Venus there is greate delectacions if we beleue Arestotell Hed. And in this behalfe the vertuous manne far excelleth as well as in good fare wiegh you now the matter as it is the better a manne loueth his wife the more he delecteth in the good felow ship and familiaritie that is betwene theim after the course of nature Furthermore no menne louē their wiues more vehemētly then thei that loue theim euē soo as Christ loued the churche For thei that loue thē for the desire of bodely pleasure loue thē not More ouer the seldomer any man dooeth accompany with his wife the greater pleasure it is to hym afterwarde and that thyng the wātō poete knew full well whiche writeth rare and seldome vse stereth vp pleasures Albeit the lest parte of pleasure is in the familiare company betwene theim There is forsothe far greater in the continuall leadyng of their liues too gether whiche emongest none can be so plesaunt as those that loue syncerely and faithfully together in godly and christian loue and loue a like one the other In the other sort oftē whē the pleasure of y e body decaieth waxeth old loue waxeth coold is sone forgottō but emōgest right christē mē the more y t the lust of y e flesh decreaseth vanishethaway y e more thē al godly loue encreseth Are you not yet perswaded that none lyue more pleasauntly thē they whiche liue continually in vertue and true religiō of god SP. Would god all men were as well perswaded in that thyng He. And if they bee Epicures y t lyue pleasauntli none bee righter Epicures then they that liue vertuously and if we wyll that euery thyng haue it right name none deserueth more y e cogname of an Epicure then that Prince of all godly wisedome too whō most reuerētly we ought alwaies too praye for in the greeke tonge an Epicure signifieth an helper Nowe whan the lawe of nature was first corrupted with linne whē the law of Moses did rather prouoke euil desires thē then remedy them Whā the tyraunte Sathanas reygned in this worlde freely and wythout punishement then thys prynce onely dyd sodenlye helpe mankynde redy to perishe wherfore thei erre shamefully which scoff and bable that CHRIST was one that was sadd and of a malancolye nature that he hath prouoked vs vnto an vnpleasaunt kynde of lyfe for onely he did shewe a kind of liuing most godly and fullest of al true pleasure if we might haue the stone of Tantalus taken awaye from vs. SPVD. What darke saiyng is this EDO It is a mery tale too laugh at but this bourd in duceth verye graue and sadde thynges SPV. I tary too heare this mery conceite that you name too bee so sage a matter HE Thei whiche gaue their studye and diligence to colour and setfurth the preceptes of Philosophie wyth subtil fables declare y t there was one Tantalus broughte vnto the table of the goddes whych was euer furnished wyth all good fare and most nete and sumptuous that myght bee whan thys straunger shoulde take hys leaue Iupyter thought it was for his great liberalitie and highe renoume that his guest shuld not depart wythout some rewarde he wylled him therfore too aske what he woulde and he shoulde haue it Tantalusꝰ forsooth lyke a verye leude and foolyshe person for that he sette all the felicitie and pleasure of man in the delectation of the bely and glotonye desired but only too sytte at suche a table all the dayes of hys life Iupiter graunted him his desire and shortly his vow was there stablished and ratifyed Tantalus nowe sytteth at the table furnyshed wyth all kindes of delicates such drinke as the goddes druncke of was set on the table and there wanted no rooses nor odours that could yeoue any swete smel before the Goddes Ganymedes the buttler or one lyke vnto hym standeth euer redye the Muses stande rounde aboute syngyng pleasauntly mery Silenus daunseth ne●ther wanted noo fooles too laugh at and breuely there there was euerye thynge that coulde delyght any sence of mā but emongist all these Tantalus sytteth all sadde syghyng and vnquiet with hym selfe neither laughing nor yet touching such thynges as were set before hym SPVDE. What was the cause HED. Ouer his head as he sate there hāged by an hecre a great stone euer lyke too fall SPV. I woulde then haue conueied my selfe from suche a table HEDO But his vowe had bound hym too the contrarye for Iupyter is not so easye too intreate as oure GOD which dooeth vnloose the pernitious vowes of menne that bee made contrary vnto his holy woord if thei bee penitent and sorye therfore or elles it myght bee thus the same stoone that woulde not suffer hym too eate would neither suffer hym to ryse for if he had but ones moued he shuld haue been quashed al in peeses with the fall thereof SPVDE. You haue shewed a very mery fable HEDON But nowe heare that thing which you wil not laugh at the commune people seeke too haue a pleasaunt life in out warde thynges where as noothyng can yeoue that but onely a constant and a quiet mind for surely a far heuier stone hangeth ouer these y t grudge with them selues then hanged ouer Tantalus it only hangeth not ouer them but greueth and oppresseth the mynde ne the mind is not troubled wyth any vayn hoope but looketh euery houre to bee caste in too the paynes of hell I praye you what can bee so pleasaunt emongist all thinges that bee yeouen vnto man that coulde reioyse the mynde whyche were oppressed wyth suche a stoone SPVDE. Truely there is nothyng but madnes or elles incredulitie HEDO. Yf younge menne woulde weygh these thynges that bee quyckly prouoked and entised with pleasure as it were wyth the cuppe of Circes whiche in steade of theyr greatest pleasures receiue poysone myxte wyth honye Howe circumspecte would they bee too doo anye thynge vnaduisedly y t shoulde grudge their mindes afterward What thinge is it that thei would not doo too haue suche a godly treasure in store against their latter daies that is a minde knowyng it selfe cleane honest and a name that hath not been defiled at any time But what thyng now is more miserable then is agee Whan it beholdeth and loketh backward on thinges y t be past seeth plainly with great grudg of conscience howe fayre thynges he hathe despiced and sette lyght by that is howe farre he hath discented and gone astray from the promyses made vnto God in baptime agayn how foule noughty thīges he hath clipped and enbraced and whā hee looketh forwarde hee seeth then the daye of iudgemente drawe neere and shortely after the eternall punyshemente of of hell SPVDE. I esteme theim most happie whych haue neuer defyled theyr youthe but euer haue increased in vertu til thei haue coomne vnto the last puincte of age HEDO. Next them thei ar too bee commended that haue wythdrawne theim selues from the folie of youth in tyme. SPVDE. But what councel wil you yeoue agee that is in suche great myserie HEDO. No man shoulde dispayre so long as life endureth I wyl exhorte him to flee for helpe vnto the infinitie mercye gentilnes of God SP. But the longer y t he hath liued the heape of his synnes hath euer waxen greate and greater so that nowe it passeth the nomber of the sandes in the sea HE But the mercies of our lord far excede those sādes for although the sande can not bee numbred of manne yet hit hath an ende but the mercie of God neither knoweth ende ne measure SP. Yea but he hath no space that shall dye by and by HEDONI The lesse tyme he hath the more feruētly he should cal vnto god for grace that thyng is long inough before God whiche is of suche power as too ascende from the yearth vnto heauē for a short prayer forsoth streght entreth heauē if it bee made with a vehemēt spirit It is written y e y e womā synner spoken of in the gospell did penaunce al her life dayes but with how fewe wordes again did the thief obtain Paradise in the houre of death If he will crye with hearte and mynde God haue mercie on me after thy great mercie God wil take awaye from hym Tantalus stone and yeoue in his hearyng ioye and cōfort and his bones humiled throughe cōtrition wil reioyse that he hath his synnes for yeouen hym FINIS Imprinted at London vvithir the precinct of the late dissolued house of the gray Friers by Richarde Grafton Printer too the Princes grace the. XXIX daie of Iuly the yere of our Lorde M. D. XLV EICHDIEN P SVSCIPITE INCITVM VERBVM●● IACO I
the courte spake vnto hym oftentimes saiyng they woulde coom̄ one day too his house and see what good chere he kept reprouyng greatly vile and homly fare and moderate expenses in all thynges He graunted they shulde bee welcome and very instauntly desired them And they came fastyng because they would haue better appetites Whā they wer set to dyner as it was thought ther wāted noo kynde of delitious meat they filled thē selues haboūdantly after y e feast was doone they gaue moost hearty thanckes for their galaunte cheare and departed euery one of them vnto their owne lodgynges but anone their stomackes beganne too waxe an hungred they maruayled what this shuld meane so soone to be an hungred and a thirste after so sumptuous a feast at the last the matter was openly knowen and laught at Spu. Not without a cause it had been muche better for thē too haue satisfied their stomackes at their owne chābers with a messe of potage thē too be fed so delitiousli with vain illusiōs H. And as I thīk y e cōmune sort of men ar muche more too bee laught at whiche in steede of Godlye thynges chose vaine and transitory shadowes and reioyce excedyngly in suche folishe phansies that turne not afterwarde in too a a laughter but into euerlasting lamentation and sorow Spudeus The more nerelier I note your saiynges the better I like thē Hedo. Go too let vs graunt for a tyme these thynges too bee called pleasaunt that in very dede ar not Would you saye that meeth were swete whiche had more Aloes myngled with it then honye Spud. I woulde not so say and if there were but the third part of an ounce of Aloes mixt with it Hedo. Orels would you wishe to bee scabbed because you haue some pleasure too scratch Spud. Noo if I wer in my right mynd HED. Their weigh with your self how great peyne is intermyngled wyth these false and wrongly named pleasures y t vnshamefast loue filthie desire much eatyng and drinking bring vs vnto I doo omitte now that which is principall grudge of cōscience enemitie betwixt God and mā and expectation of euerlastyng punishēment What kynd of pleasure I pray you is ther in these thinges that dooeth not bryng with it a greate heape of outeward euilles SPV. What bee thei HEDO. We ought to let passe and forbeare in this place auarice ambition wrath pryde enuy whiche of their selues bee heuy and sorowful euylles and let vs conferre and compare all those thynges together y t haue the name of some chief and special pleasure wher as the agew the hedache the swelling of the belly dulnes of witte infamy hurt of memory vomyting decaye of stomacke tremblyng of the body succede of ouer muche drynking thynke you that the Epicure would haue estemed any suche lyke pleasure as thys cōuenient and wourthy desire SPV. He woulde saye it wer vtterly too bee refused HEDONi Wheras young men also with hauntynge of whores as it is dayly seene catche the newe leprosie nowe otherwyse named Iobs agew and some cal it the scabbes of Naples throughe which desease they feele often y e most extreme and cruell paines of deathe euen in this lyfe and cary about abodye resemblyng very much some dead coarse or carryn do you thynke that ther apply them selues vnto godlye pleasure SPVD. Noo for after thei haue been often familiar with their pretyones then they must goo streighte too the barbours that chaunceth continuallye vnto all whoremongers HED. Now fayne that ther wer alyke measure of pain and plesure would ye then require too haue the toothache so longe as the pleasure of quaffing whor dome endured SPV. Verely I had rather wāt them booth for ther is no commoditie nor vantage to bye pleasure with payn but only to chaūg one thing for another but the heit choise is nowe not too affectionate anye such leudnes for MAR. Tullius calleth that an inward greife sorow He. But now y e prouocation entisemēt of vnleful plesure besides that it is much lesse then the pain which it bringeth with it it is also a thing of a very short time but if the leprosye bee ones caught it tourmēteth mē al their life daies very pitifully oftentimes cōstraineth them to wyshe for death before thei cā dye SP. Such disciples as those then the Epicure would not knowe HED. For the most part pouertie a very miserable and painfull burden foloweth lechery of immoderate lust cōmeth the palsie tremblyng of y e senewes blcardnes of eyes and blyndnes the leprosie and not these only is it not a ꝓper pece of worke I pray you to chaūg this short pleasure neyther honest nor yet godly for so manye euylles far more greuouse and of muche longer continuance SP. Although there shoulde no pain com of it I esteme hym to bee a very fond occupier which would chaūge precious stones for glasse HE. You meane that would lose the godly pleasures of the mynde for the coloured pleasures of y e body SP. That is my meanyng HE. But nowe let vs come to a more perfecter supputation neither the agewe nor yet pouerty foloweth alwaies carnal pleasure nor the new leprosy or els the palsy waitnot on at altimes the great excessiue vse of lecherye but grudge of cōsiēce euermore is a folower sure companiō of al vnleaful pleasure then the which as it is plainly agreed betwixt vs nothyng is more miserable SPV. Yea rather it grudgeth their cōscience sometyme before hande in the self pleasure it pricketh their mynde yet ther bee some y t you woulde say want this motion and feelyng HE. Thei bee nowe therfore in worse estate cōditiō Who would not rather feele payne then too haue hys body lacke any perfecte sence truly from some ether intemperatnes of euel desires euen like as it were a certayne kynde of drunkenes or els wont and cōmune haunt of vice which ar so hardened in them y t they take a way y e felyng cōsideration of euyl in their youth so that whā agee commeth vpō them beside other infinitie hurtes and perturbations agaynst whose commyng thei should haue layd vp the deedes of their former lyfe as a special iuwel and treasure then thei stande greatly in fear of death a thyng emongist all other most ineuitable that no man canne shonne yea and the more they haue heretofore been dysmayed and lacked their sences the greater now is their vn quietnes and grudge of conscience then truely the mynde is sodenly awaked whether it wol or noo and verely wher as olde agee is alwayes sad and heuy of it selfe for as muche as it is in subiection and bondage vnto many incommodities of nature but then it is farre more wretchede and also fylthye if the mynde vnquiet with it selfe shal trouble it also feastes ryotous banketyng syngyng and daunsynge with manye suche other wanton toyes pastimes which he was communely yeouē vnto thought very plesaūt when he was young bee nowe