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A96210 Refractoria disputatio: or, The thwarting conference, in a discourse between [brace] Thraso, one of the late Kings colonels. Neutralis, a sojourner in the city. Prelaticus, a chaplain to the late King. Patriotus, a well-willer to the Parliament. All of them differently affected, and disputing on the subjects inserted after the epistle, on the dissolution of the late Parliament, and other changes of state. T. L. W. 1654 (1654) Wing W136; Thomason E1502_1; ESTC R208654 71,936 174

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Ramsey to accept of 3000. l. ready money to to be quit of him Of the Kings assertion that he was not accomptable for his actions to any but to God alone AS to that odious position or rather Tyrannical assertion both of the Fathers and the Sons that they were not accomptable for their actions to any but to God alone doubtless 't is an impious position and in the next degree to blasphemy and cannot be without repentance forgiven of God nor forgotten of men and those of their subjects which felt the effects thereof Should we longer insist on this Theam and produce proofs that Kings for their irregularities and Tyrannies have in divers Kingdoms been call'd to account they would amount to a Volumn The Justice of Arragon the Ephori amongst the Lacedemonians the Senate of Rome the Parliaments of England and Scotland will soon evince and put this question out of doubt for Kings as well as subjects both by Gods Laws and mans are under the Law and in this kingdom and many other well regulated Soveraignties they have been often over-ruled withstood in their exorbitancies sued at Law and evicted and some deposed expeld and sentenced to death and should it not be so Subjects would be no other then inanimate slaves sure we are Almighty God never impowered Kings with such absolute Soveraignty that might enable them to trample on their subjects without controule Saul made a rash vow as a Law to the Isaelites that none should eat any food all the day until the evening but he should die Ionathan being then absent not knowing thereof had dipt his rod in a Honey-comb and tasted it but being told of his Fathers Law he answered the people My Father troubles Israel and indeed such troublers there are amongst kings howsoever Ionathan was sentenced to death but the people withstood the king and swore that a hair of his head should not fall and they rescued him in the face of the king certainly should not there be some one other power in a kingdom to curbe and controule the exorbitancies of irregular kings for few of them are Saints no man should be exempted from their oppressions and therefore Bracton delivers it as the law of the Land that in such cases the Barons or Parliament ought not onely to withstand oppressive kings but to call them to account for their misdemeanors which may suffice to show how much the two late kings were mistaken in this their Tyrannous assertion Now Gentleman Royalists these Soveraign Rights as you would have them so often treated on utterly dissonant to the Laws of the Land whereunto particularly I have briefly made answer are those goodly Prerogatives wherewith you would have invested the late king as his indubitable birth-rights and inseparables of his Crown for which you still constantly aver he was compeld to fight and your selves with him to uphold them where I must by the way remember you of a time when he shamed not to * Vide The Kings Coyn at Oxford divulge it to the whole Nation that he fought for the Protestant Religion the Laws of the Land and Priviledges of Parliaament for he was not to seek wherein to please the people and win them to his cause though never so unjust when as in truth he fought against all those three and so long as untill he could fight no more but by what law or reason other then his own none may better know then your selves which as well as infinite others that opposed him have felt the fruits of your unadvisedness the effects of his obduracy his cunning and crafty fetches to attract friends for backing of an unlimited Soveraignty to which had he attained it would have been no other then too heavie a burthen for him to bear a sting in his own conscience a sore in yours which you will all finde whensoever it shall please God to open the eyes of your understanding and enable you to see how you have bin decoyed in with Oathes Protestations and hopes of preferment made the instruments of your own Invassalage This if you believe not to have been the design yet you may finde it legible not onely in the claims and pretences he made to those illegal and irrational Prerogatives before recited but more apparently figured in that bloody Rubrick of a continued War which he so long waged to be absolute master of them and consequenly over all the free people of England Thus have I shewed you how invalid the grounds are whereon you continue to insist in justifying the late king and your selves how dissonant and contrary to the Laws usuages and Statutes of the land such was the wisedom and providence of our ancient Parliaments in all their enactings evermore to prefer the common interest before the kings though they failed not to gratifie them as they found them compliable to the redress of the publick grievances with many Royal immunities as we may finde them registred in the Statutes at large on the Title of Prerogative some whereof I think fit here to present to your view that so you may judge whether Sir Walter Rawly was not in the right who avoucheth that few of our kings but have gotten ground and improved their Soverainties meerely by their Parliaments as I verily believe none more then the late unfortunate King had he been pleased in imitation of Queen Elizabeth to have complyed with the late Parliament But as to his Prerogative of Wardships and Marriages they were first conferr'd on our Kings 17 of Edw. 2d their primer session 52. Hen. 3d the tuition of Ideots and distracted persons 17. of Edw. 2d 32. of Hen. 8th but with several proviso's of accompts to be made to the next Heirs of Ideots and the children of him that was incompos mentis As to wracks of Sea Whales c. they were given by Parliaament to Edward the Second the 17 of his Raign Felons goods the 9 of Hen. 3. power to make Justices of peace 27. of Hen. 8. the Legitimation of the Kings children born beyond the Seas 25. Edw. 3. Tonage and Pondage to Edw. 4. pro tempore yet granted to every of his Successors by the meer indulgence of their Parliaments though the late King challenged it as his own right I may not omit farther to inform you that this Nation hath not been so much abused and deceived by any one proficient in our Laws as by that false and jugling Judge Ienkins who in his Lex * Lex Terrae a most vile and fraudulent peice Terrae by his accumulation of several Statutes insinuates and endeavors to make the Kings power absolute and consequently the people mee● Slaves and Vassals alledging this and that to be the Law of the Land which is not or ever was taking his Authorities and Authors by piece-meals curtaling the Statutes in their sense without the explanation of their meanings and intents whereby on my own knowledge he hath deceived and prevailed on the
us reason this case amongst our selves in moderation and with patience and let the first Quere be whether the States Government as 't is now setled or shortly may be with our present Contributions for payment of their Armies wil not be more safe and easie for the people then the Scotch Pretenders coming in by force of Arms to assume the Kingly Government Since by a peaceable and conditional way I suppose he will never be admitted So that Doctor without all question he hath no choice left him but that of the sword and then judge you of the issue and into what a lamentable condition the poor Natives will necessarily be reduced when the right of the crown comes again to be disputed on English ground the king as you would have him being personally present And after this Quere Let us compute the hopes helps strengths and assistances whereon both parties may dep●nd for support of each others cause For one battel either by Sea or Land happily will not determine the controversie as t was conceived by some that one battel as that at Edghill in the begining of the late wars would decide the business which proved to be like the pullulation of the Monster Hidra's head which begot others in infinitum and when the late King was in person in the head of his A●my Of the hopes assistances and Forces which the Scotch King may have to recover the Kingly Government compared with the strengths the States have to maintain the present Government argued on all hands I say then Let us make an ●stimate of the forces and assistances of each party which on a due examination and on consideration of that which must necessarily follow when at once as we may conjecture two four or happily six several Armies may be in the field will be so far from easing or d●sburchening of the people that what by free Quartering and inforcing of contributions by one or the other party that the Natives will curse the time that ever your King came amongst them Now Gentlemen do one of you tell me what Forces and Assistances as you conceive the King may have or presume upon for I believe he will come short of his expectation in receiving any considerable Assistance either from the Scotch or Irish and then I will tell you that which all men and your selves do know to be most true what the States here have and may have as well in their present power by Sea and Land as by their Politique managery in fastning friends unto them whereby to make good the present establishment Colonel You being a Souldier and not unlikely having better Intelligence from abroad then any of us what preparations the Scots King hath in forraign parts what friends at home and elsewhere begin you if you please and I will rejoyn Thraso With all my heart In the first place I 'le assure you that since the death of the late King my Royal Master his Majesty that now is whom the States here would exclude hath ten friends for one more then he had before thoughout the three Kingdoms so much your States have gotten by the bargains in Martyring their King neither ought you to believe but that the King hath both in Scotland and Ireland a very considerable party that will joyn with him as soon as he arrives and not a few even in the City of London which expect a good time though they lie still and quiet however the King hath their hearts and will have their hands on all fitting occasions Besides He hath at his devotion all the Catholikes and most of the Clergy of England with all the Lords so lately and Injuriously thrust out of their house together with the better part of the Members of the Commons house pul●ed out by the ears by the Independent Souldery all which refused to take the Engagement and when time serves will appear in Arms for him besides all the The Scotch Pretenders hopes in assistance for recovery of the Crown summed up old Royal party Banished the Realm for their fidelity to their old Master Thus much for the ayds and assistances his Majesty may relie on from his own Subjects And as to his forraign assistance you may rest assured that all the Princes through Christendom when the time serves will engage for him since it stands them upon so to do Neither may you doubt but that all the Princes his neer Kinsmen and Allyes will furnish him plentifully with all sorts of Ammunition and the Hollanders with shipping so soon as they have mastered the Seas and made all things ready for an Invasion for believe it as an evident truth that in the present quarrel by Sea between them and this State the Kings Interest is involved and will be pursued notwithstanding their late brush which they reckon not of neither of a few inconsiderable Ships they having enough of others to recrute in a trice so that you may evidently see that as soon as time serves the King cannot want men and for mony good Swords and Pistols will fetch it in with a vengeance Whence you may discern what an unwildy task the late piece of a Parliament and these new sprang-up States have undertaken and what will necessarily befall them through their own divisions when the King appears in power as of that you may be sure he will sooner then you think on then you shall see a world of the Parliaments friends to fall from them for their own sakes will fight for him and probable it is that a good number of the States Souldiers now in their pay on his Majesties landing with another manner of equipage then all of you are aware of will run from them to him with all their hearts as their indubitable Lord Soveraign Partri Colonel you have indeed succinctly summ'd up what Forces as you surmise the King may have and expect both at home and from abroad wherein you are very much mistaken and do reckon without your host you speak rather what you would have then in reason what the King can have still discovering your malignant heart and flattering your self as most of your party use to do with vain and imaginary hopes not considering how the late King notwithstanding all his wyles and attifices fail'd in all his designs and practises and at last brought him self and his friends to utter ruine to the great detriment and desolation of three Kingdoms still soothing up himself with the goodness of his cause which was as bad as bad might be to the last gaspe neither take you the least notice of Gods providence in the disposure of this wonderful work and change of Affairs neither the continued series of the many mitaculous Victories which it hath pleased God to give to the States Armies wherein the very hand of the Almighty is most perspicuous to all good men but to you and your complices hidden and unseen even to obduracy and hardning of your hearts The
Vice-Roy-ship put to death and massacred ● not so few as 100000 of the Natives amongst which the Counts Egmont and Horn with others of the Nobility were the chief which withstood his Tyranny and stood up in defence of their immunities which the King of Spain by power would have taken from them which was a just cause given to the people to revolt both for safegard of their lives and priviledges which the four great Dukes of Burgandy suffered them to enjoy so that on a right understanding of the Hollanders case which was just and but reason that when they could not obtain right from the King upon their many Petitions and complaints of the Tyranny of his Ministers they could do no less then endeavor the preservation of their lives and fortunes And therefore under the conduct of the Prince of Orange they seized on divers of the strongest Towns and the people unanimously fell in with the Prince and ever since manfully and fortunately have defended themselves But in the late defection of the English with the Parliaments raising of Armies against their Soveraign Lord there is no manner of similitude with that of Holland or any such cause given or ground of the peoples defection since I presume you will confess that not so much as one guiltless man during all the late Kings raign hath been put to death unless you object and instance in those which by the fatality of the late War befel both parties which you know to be no other then fortuna de la gu●ra not the Kings Tyranny or the least desire of his that a drop of innocent blood should have been spilt and that which was was in his own necessitated defence But I pray take the case as now it stands between the present King and your States then you may soon see the difference for in confirmation of the Collonels assertion I dare affirm the King hath ten friends for one to those on whom the States may rely as firm and fixed to them since his late Majesty was put to death and that major number you may be sure on'● are all his in body and soul and do utterly detest that his Royal Father and ● himself should be so unjustly cut off and excluded of his birth-right and by whom think you but by an inconsiderable part of the representative the Souldiery and a handful of the people their 's adherents and therefore I say that the King on a right estimate of his party upon the least turn of the wheel will have a surerer and a stronger side then possibly the States here can have Patri Doctor in this your last reply I observe some notable particulars first you approve of the justness of the Hollanders defection yet you say that it parrallels not with this of the States here and change of the Government the reasons you have given for justifying the Hollander I confess are most true self preservation being just and allowable by Gods Law and mans But that now you should defend their cause which none of your said party ever did till of late is somewhat strange unless it be for that as you believe they are secretly engaged in the Scotch Kings Cause and yet you condemn the late Parliament for defending themselves and their liberties against the late Kings Tyranny which you shamefully endevor to excuse and would quit him from all blood-guiltines● To which I answer That had you thought upon your own instance of 100000 of the Natives massacred by the Tyranny of the Spaniard it would have put you in minde of a million of people throughout the three kingdoms slain and murthered by the meer Tyranny Plots and practises of the late King of which you take no notice but after the wonted manner of all Royalists you justisty his innocency so that to the worlds-end you give occasion to the Parliaments party to rip up the faults of the dead and cause them to display all his Falshoods frauds breaches of Oaths and Protestations But as to your assertion That the major number of the people here are for the Scotch Pretender in body and soul is in part granted you yet therein you extremly delude your self for the odds in that major number will little advantage him or his party since the major power lies evidently in the lesser number which are for the States what then will it avail a prince unexperienced to lead a great yet an undisciplin'd Army against a lesser number but well disciplin'd valiant and armed Souldiers though you cannot be ignorant that the States Armies are very strong and numerous in all the three Nations As to your denyall of the similitude and parallel I say on the same reasons that the Hollanders took up The Hollanders case and of the States here al●ke parallel arms in defence of their liberties the people here did the same for defence of themselves and their Representative so that the parallel on the actions of both States holds and is alike save only in the ●nanimity and universal promptitude of the Nether Lands in their joyning and uniting of all their Forces with the Princes * Orange retinn●e t is most true the parallel in this holds not so fully for I must confess the State of the matter and manner of the revolt of a part of the people from the late King is different remains doubtful what may fall out in the issue in respect that the other major part of the people are conceived still to wish well to his Son the present Pretender and that all the three Nations stand in a kinde of distracted condition in regard that they are divided into parties sides factions fractions fects schisms and opinions which I acknowledge may sooner mar the work of the States now in being then they are aware of But in a word more to the point that the major number of the people are for the Scocth Pretender I say again that that number considered as they are a naked awed and dejected bulk of discontented animals signifies little or nothing compared with that power of which the States here are possest neither in humane reason can we see how or by whom they can be dispossest But let us on all hands suppose that the present Pretender shall land again in England or Scotland as of late he did where you know he was beaten there and at Worcester and forc'● to fl●e for his life again suppose he comes in with a n●merous Army of French Dutch Lorrainers Germans Sweeds Dants together with all the prescribed Cavaleers and all these united with a good party of Scotch and Irish admit them to be in all 60000 fighting men which will be too great an Army to be transported without a very powerful Navie such numbers you 'l grant cannot stay long there unless they mean to eat one another well then you will say they may instantly march into England as of late they did and not unlikely in two or three several
bodies and in divers ways the more to distract our Armies where you ought to remember that this State hath both in Scotland and the adjacent parts a very considerable force to encounter these Invaders but admit again that the King advances so far as York though you cannot imagine but that he will be fought with twice or thrice over before he comes thither with fresh men and not unlikely rebeaten as at all places he hath been but let us again admit that he s●rmounts all difficulties both by Sea and Land and becomes victorious and triumphantly marches towards London and that the States Force cannot withstand him and that on the noise of such sad news the prevailing party as you are pleased to stile them being confound●d with terrour betake themselves to their heels as their ultimum refugium and the best way to shist for themselves and that after this all is left to the Kings absolute disposement as all this not impossible but exceeding improbable what then on such sudden change of fortune think you may be the issnes thereof and what advantage either to your party or the generality of the people and all Countries through which his Armies shall march and Quarter accompaned with so many Nations dive●sly affected Prel I confess the people must ne●essarily suffer and haply in a greater measure then hitherto they have done yet am I confident his Majesty will be very sensible of their sufferings and in prevention of their farther oppression and for settling of all things will immediately call a new Parliament and reduce it to the antient Form and Institution of the three Estates King Lords Spiritual and Temporal with the Commons and then commit all things to a sober legal and Parliamentary discussion and in what manner restitution may be made of his own Lands and goods the Churches Patrimony with the many other loosers of his own party and after all this in detestation of the foulness of the late War and bloodshed to bu●y all discontents and heart-burnings as Judge Jenkins very j●diciously proposes in an Act of Oblivion with free pardon to all except some special persons that had a principal hand in his Fathers death and for all other of his Subjects to spare and cherish them in what possible his affaits will permit Patri Doctor excuse me since I utterly dissent from your opinion for it stands not with reason or with the Kings then present affaires to take a piece of that course which you suppose and should he be willing there would be so many of the old Cavalry attending his person as well Natives as Forraigners which would thrust in to be served and gratified that he should not be suffered to put in practise a title of that which is by you so vainly surmised but you may build upon 't he would take a clean contrary course and such a one as the necessity of his then urgent occasions would inforce and not tie up himself to his own disadvantage by an Act of Oblivion which necessarily must disable him either to help himself or friends when the power is in his hands to do what he pleaseth and carve as he listeth Prel Since you are so diffident of his Majesties good nature and intentions towards his Subjects tell us I beseech you what you conceive he will do for the speedy settling of peace and amity through the three Kingdoms Patri May I obtain your lice●ce and a favourable construction of that which I shall deliver I will tender my opinion and leave you all to make your own judgments thereon In the first place I believe that whereas then he comes in by the sword in order to his necessities he would rule by the sword and by an Army with Garrisons throughout the Land as now the States upon the point do and must do if they mean to go through stitch with their work and thenceforth begin a new Government as in like manner the States here intend to do the Laws of the Land which under the present power the people yet enjoy as they were wont to do in quiet and peaceable times would necessarily be subverted and turn'd topsie-turvie and such introduced in their room as should best sute with the will and pleasure of a Prince that comes in by Conquest and by the same power will have them to be no other then agrees with his Affairs and resolutions or as they are in France if not worse and more absolute where a single paper signed under the Kings hand hath the same efficacy as an Act of Parliament in England and in order to this you must expect that his mercenary Souldiers must and would be remembred If you demand in what I answer with the whole plunder of London as the readiest means to give them all content for their service and if this seem strange to you I pray call to minde that in the late Kings time when no occasion of wars or raising of Armies in any reason were necessary to be levied but such as our late Grandees the Earl of Strafford Canterbury and Cottington would have to be raised against the Scots that Earl spake it openly at the Councel-Table 1640 and to no other man then the Lord Mayor Sir Henry Garway and others of the Aldermen upon their refusing to lend the king 100000 l. for the Scotch War It will never do well says he till the King hangs half a dozen of you Aldermen and then put the whole City to ransome Which was proved against him at his Arraignment neither did the king forbear the seizing of the Mint for supply of that needless War so that 't is evident when Princes have power they will make no scruple to act any thing that conduceth to their designs or to take all things where they can finde it as 't is well known he did in the late barbarous War neither will it be impertinent to put you in remembrance of another instance of this kinde when at or before the beginning of the War the king took his journey towards Scotland and overtook the Scotch Army in their march homewards 1641 where he dealt with the principal Commanders to turn head on the Parliament in reward whereof they should have the plunder of London with Jewels for security an overture which some of them were not so dishonest as to conceal but gave notice thereof to the City and their own Commissioners then here residing Now if you farther demand What the present Pretender would do in the pre-supposed case I shall again answer you that in reason of State which with Kings and Conquerors hath an Of the miserable condition that will befal the Nation especially the City of London in case the Scots Pretender comes in by the sword immense latitude he would and could do no less then to take present order for the satisfaction of his Country-men the Scots as also for gratifying the proscribed and fugitive Lords Cavaleers both English Scotch and Irish which first