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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10345	The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.	Rainolds, John, 1549-1607.; Hart, John, d. 1586. aut; Rainolds, John, 1549-1607. Sex theses de Sacra Scriptura, et Ecclesia. English. aut	1584 (1584)	STC 20626; ESTC S115546	763,703	768

trust in him stirre vp our loue towardes him and pray vnto him hartily increase our faith forgeue our sinnes in a word that we may runne the whole race of our life with greater stedfastnes and constancie Then sith these things are thus it is to be concluded that the godly are lead by the holy Ghost into all trueth and holinesse euen to saluation but to this saluation they are so lead that they are not frée from all spot and wrincle either of maners or of doctrine Touching which point on the one side in respect of maners Sebastian Castellio hath erred very shamefully holding this hereticall opinion amongst others that the regenerate are able to performe the law of God perfitly which thing it is blasphemous to affirme of any but of Christ onely On the other side in respect of doctrine Hosius the Cardinall hath ouershot him selfe as fowly saying that euerie one of the elect may erre as by S. Cyprians example he sheweth but that all the faithfull gathered together in one cannot erre which is a fansy of a man that would build castles in the ayre It is a matter therefore most sure and out of dout that the elect and chosen may erre as in maners so in doctrine too though in such sort that they shall not die but liue notwithstanding and be cured of their errors Marry that they who are not chosen but onely called may erre euen to death as well in doctrine as in maners in maners it appeereth by the example of Iudas who was brought through couetousnes to betray Christ in doctrine we may sée by those monstrous heretikes of whom S. Iohn saith they went out from vs but they were not of vs. Wherefore sith both the chosen and the called may erre the one to their triall the other to their destruction and the church militant consisteth of none but of the called and the chosen that which I proposed is prooued sufficiently that the militant church may erre not onely in maners but in doctrine also If any man for proofe thereof require examples hée hath the churches of Galatia of Corinth of Pergamus of Thyatira of Sardis and of La●dicea All the which to omit examples of our owne time the scripture witnesseth to haue erred some of them in maners some in doctrine some in both Yea the very church of Ephesus it selfe which Christ shewed to Iohn in the figure of a candlesticke because it held the light of life which Timothee abode in when Paul wrote vnto him that the church is the piller and ground of the truth euen this church of Ephesus was impaired so greatly by leauing of her first loue that Christ did therefore threaten her he would remoue her candlesticke out of his place vnlesse shee repented She repented not but by litle and litle became woorse woorse and heaped faut vpon faut yea many fautes vpon one both in maners and doctrine Therefore Christ remoued her candlesticke out of his place the chosen who shined with the light of faith he gathered to himselfe the called who hated the light he gaue ouer to darkenes the shadow of death the godly he made pillers in the temple of his God the hypocrites the filth of the temple he cast out to the dunghill of the vngodly and he left the citie of Ephesus desolate to wicked Mahomets impietie Now that may befall to euery one as they say which may befall to any one Then looke what hath befallen to the Church of Ephesus that may to euery Church But the Church of Ephesus was shaken first and crased afterwarde quite ouerthrowne and being hereft of the light of Christ is now a Church no longer Then is there no Church vpon the face of the earth howsoeuer it flatter it selfe with those titles of the candlesticke of Christ piller of the truth there is no Church I say whose bodie that is the chosen may not be ouertaken with faintnesse and darkenesse whose dregges that is the hypocrites may not be consumed with rottennesse and destruction finally whose whole frame constitution may not be depriued both of strength and beautie I know that the Papists answere hereunto that the militant Church may erre for the flockes the people that are in it but the guides and Pastours whose assemblie is called the Church by Christ saying tell the Church can not Which is false and fond For as there are sheepe and goates in the flockes so the Pastours of them are good hirelinges or theeues The good ones do slumber sometimes as the Apostles the hirelinges fly assoone as the woolfe commeth the theeues come to steale to kill and to destroy Wherefore no Pastour is exempt from danger of erring more or lesse And for the former point that they may erre in maners what néede I bring Apostles or Prophets to proue it The complaint of Bernard is fresh I would to God it were not too fresh there creepeth an owgly rot at this present through the whole body of the Church Which wordes being spoken in reproof of the life and conuersation of the Prelates that is of the Bishops Pastours of the Church doo shew that not a common disease but a rot and that not small but ougly and that creeping on not kéeping at a stay may infect not onely this or that member but the whole body of Pastors for their maners Now that they may also be ouerseene in doctrine and erre in pointes of faith it is plainely proued by those Corinthian Pastours who built hay and stubble vpon the foundation that S. Paul had layde by them of whom S. Peter foretelleth that there should be false teachers in the new Church as in the old there were false prophets by Samosatenus Arius Nestorius Pastors of famous Churches and autors of most heinous heresies yea by the Bishops of the whole world who all were Arians in a maner when there were scarce left a few Catholiks when the whole world did grone wonder at it selfe that it was become an Arian But the Papistes will reply that when they say the Church cānot erre they meane the Church in that sense in which the Schoole-men call it representatiue that is Bishops and Prelates representing the whole church in a generall Councell What And hath that Church I meane a generall Councell this priuilege that it can not erre They hold so in deede But what will they say of so many Councels of the Arians which caused Gregorie Nazianzene to despaire that any good would be doon by Councels But they deny these to haue béene lawfull Councels What will they answere then to those which them selues confesse to haue béene lawfull The Councell of Laodicea though a prouinciall Councell yet allowed by a generall did set downe the same Canon of the scriptures which both the olde Church had

Ierom therein where Ierom saith the same that he doth so plainely fully that your Hosius is faine to shape one answere to them both that they beleeued a false rumour Wherewith your Bellarmin doth cast them off too And this shift of laying the blame on false rumours séemed so hansome to your Surius that he belike misliking Onuphrius shift of Anastasius applyeth it to Damasus also For colouring wherof he saith that very auncient historians and writers beare witnesse of Liberius most constant perseuerance in defense of the Catholike faith But being not able to name as much as one of these very auncient historians and writers of whom hee boasteth with shamelesse lye he sendeth his reader a thing most ridiculous to Nicephorus a late writer who saith he doubtlesse did draw his writings out of the auncient In déede that which Nicephorus hath of this point he drewe it out of Sozomen and if the Gréeke were extant the truth were easily tryed but either he did change his autour in three wordes which is not likely sith he folowed him through all the chapter foote by foote or which is most likely your Langus who translated him out ofa writē copie was as bold with him as Christopherson with Sozomen Such follies and treacheries you wrappe your selues in to kéepe men from opinion that a Pope subscribed to the Arian heresie Which had you not hardened your faces as flint to sooth the presumption of the Papall See I sée no cause why you should doo chiefely sith your selues do teach as I haue shewed that the Pope may be an heretike and not subscribe to heresie onely But if you be affected so tenderly to the Pope that you will rather graunt any fault in others then such a spot in him if you can say with out blushing that Damasus was corrupted Athanasius light of credit Marcellinus a false Chronicler that Sozomen is truer in Latin then in Gréeke in your translation then his owne tounge that Marianus Scotus Martinus Polonus Ado Rhegino Antoninus Platina other later writers were deceiued by Ierom that Ierom was abused himselfe by false rumours to be short that the Papistes who liue in our daies can tell what was done twelue hundred yeares ago better then them selues who liued at that time andsince from age to age yet you cannot say but that Ierom thought that Liberius subscribed to the Arian heresie yea that Felix the next Bishop of Rome after Liberius was an Arian he thought it Wherefore if he had meant of the whole succession of the Roman Bishops that which he wrote to Damasus I am ioyned in communion vnto your holinesse that is to Peters chaire I know that the Church is builded vpon that rocke then hee must haue meant that before the time that Damasus was Bishop he ought to haue béene ioyned in communion to the Arians and that the Arians holinesse was the chaire of Peter and that the Church was built vpon the rocke of Arians But this abomination was farre from S. Ierom. S. Ierom therefore meant not the succession but Damasus who succéeded Peter as in chaire so in doctrine and taught the faith which Peter did a faith as cleane contrarie to the Arians faith as light is to darkenes as life is to death Hart. But questionlesse S. Austin meant the whole succession of the Bishops of Rome when he wrote against the Donatistes Number ye the Priestes euen from the very seat of Peter in that ranke of Fathers marke who succeeded whom that is the rocke against which the proud gates of hell preuaile not The gates of hell saith Austin preuaile not against the Priestes that is the Bishops who succeede Peter Then by his iudgement all the Roman Bishops are frée from all heresie For the gates of hell are heresies and the principall autours of heresies as Epiphanius witnesseth Wherefore ifthe gates of hell preuaile not against the succession of the Bishops of Rome it foloweth howsoeuer you auoide S. Ierom that neither Arians nor Donatistes nor any other heresies doo preuaile against it Rainoldes Did preuaile against it in the time of Austin so you should conclude You haue a pretie policie in citing the testimonies and sayings of the Fathers touching the Church of Rome that what they did speake of the time present then you vse it as spoken of the time present now There was a gentlewoman in Rome named Fabia who being waxed olde yet willing still to séeme young said in Tullies hearing that she was thirtie yeares of age That must needes be true quoth Tullie for I haue heard it of you twentie yeares ago The Church of Rome hath defiled her selfe with idolatrie gone a whoring from the Lord yet she would séeme a maide still and so shee saith her selfe to be I thinke you iest not with her as Tullie did with Fabia yet you proue her maidenhead as Tullie did the youth of Fabia You say that it must néedes be true for it is writen ofher twelue hundred yeares ago But that you may sée how small cause you haue to build so much on those wordes The gates of hell preuaile not against the succession of the Bishops of Rome consider what is meant by the gates of hell and your graunt is past that against some Bishops of Rome they haue preuailed The state of the faithfull and chosen of God in this present life is as it were a warfare whereof the Church is called militant The aduersaries and enimies whom we must fight against our Sauiour speaketh of them as of a strong kingdome which he calleth hell because it warreth all for hel and the deuil is prince of it The gates of hell therefore doo signifie the holdes the fortresses and munitions wherewith the powers of hel doo fight against vs and assault vs that is euen whatsoeuer the deuill can doo by force or fraude All the which is meant by the name of gates because the gates of fortes are wont to haue the best munition and to be fensed most strongly So the gates of hell are not onely heresies though heresies are of them as Epiphanius and Austin note but also persecutions and specially sinnes and in a word all euils sweete or sower faire or foule that séeke to subdue vs to euerlasting death as Origen Chrysostom Gregorie Theophylact and others well obserue Now ifyou apply this to the Bishops of Rome you may sée your error For it is confessed by your selfe and yours that sinnes haue preuailed and preuailed monstrously against sundry of them Whereof it doth folow that against sundry of them who haue succéeded in the seate of Peter the gates of hell haue preuailed As for S. Austins iudgement that heresies of the Arians or Donatistes or others did not preuaile against them I know no cause to the contrarie but hee might iustly say

haue Nor yet am I ashamed of that kinde of triall and iudgement by the godly who haue not learned toonges and artes but Christ onely And I comprised it in that which I said that Christ is the iudge and they which vnder him haue it committed to them euen the church of Christ. For himselfe hath giuen by speciall commission two sortes of iudgement to his church the one priuate the other publike priuate to all the faithfull and spirituall as God calleth them who are willed to iudge of that which is taught and to trie spirits whither they be of God publike to the assembly of pastors and elders for of that which Prophets teach let Prophets iudge and the spirites of Prophetes are subiect to the Prophets In both of the which the church must yet remember that God hath committed nothing but the ministerie of giuing iudgement vnto her The soueraintie of iudgement dooth rest on Gods word For Christ is our onely Doctor Law-giuer according to whose written will the church must iudge And so to returne vnto the wordes of Christ from which we digressed the sense I gaue of them will I proue by scripture according to the rule of faith the proofe of the sense I submit to the priuate and publike iudgement of the church The wordes of Christ to Peter conteined a promise of the keyes I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen The occasion of the wordes was a question of Christ asked of the Apostles answered by Peter whom say yee that I am Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God The sense which I gathered by laying these together was that as Peter answered one for all so the keyes were meant to him one with all To proue the former point that Peter answered one for all the scripture is most plaine in the sixt of Iohn where before this time Peter had confessed in their common name We beleeue and know that thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God To proue the later that the keyes were meant to him one with all the scripture is as plaine in the twentieth of Iohn where Christ performing that which he had promised to Peter doth say to him with the rest As my Father sent me so doo I send you Whose sinnes soeuer ye remit they are remitted to them whose sinnes soeuer ye reteine they are reteined Wherefore sith the keyes were promised by Christ on the profession of their fayth which was common to them all and the promise was performed when he sent them all with power to binde and loose to remit and reteine sinnes it followeth that the keyes belonged no more to Peter then to all the Apostles And therefore the promise of the keyes to him importeth no headship of his ouer them Hart. That which was promised by Christ vnto Peter was not performed to the Apostles For he gaue not them the keyes of his kingdome but the power of remitting and reteyning sinnes Rainoldes These things differ in wordes but they are one in sense as Ioseph said to Pharao Both Pharaos dreames are one For as God to teach Pharao what he would do in Egipt by seuen yeares of plentie seuen yeares of famine did vse two sundrie dreames of kine and eares of corne the surer to resolue him of his purpose in it so Christ to teach vs what he doth for mankind in ordeining the ministerie of the word Sacraments vseth two similituds the one of keyes the other of binding loosing that we may know the better the fruit force of it Touching the keyes he speaketh of heauen as of a house wherinto there is no entrance for men vnlesse the doore be opened Now we all Adams ofspring are shut out of heauen as Adam our progenitour was out of Paradise through our offenses and sinnes For no vncleane thing shall enter into it But God of his loue and fauour towards vs hath giuen vs his sonne his onely begotten sonne that whosoeuer beleeueth in him should not perish but haue eternall life which is the inheritaunce reserued in heauen for vs. We cannot beleeue vnlesse wée heare his word We heare not his word vnlesse it be preached Wherefore when God the Father sent his sonne Christ and Christ sent his Apostles as his Father sent him to preach his word to men that they who repented and beleeued in Christ should haue their sinnes forgiuen them the faithlesse vnrepentant should not be forgiuen then he gaue authoritie as it were to open heauen to the faithfull and to shut it against the wicked Which office to shut and open because in mens houses it is exercised by keies and the stewarde of the house is saide to haue the key of it to open it and to shut it therefore Christ the principall steward of Gods house is saide to haue the key of Dauid and he gaue his Apostles the keies as you would say of the kingdome of heauen when hee made them his stewardes to shut out to let in The other similitude of binding and loosing is to like effect For we are all by nature the children of sinne and therefore of death Now sinnes are in a maner the same to the soule that cordes to the body and the endlesse paines of death that is the wages of sinne are like to chaines wherewith the wicked are bound in hell as in a prison From these cordes of sinne and chaines of death eternall men are loosed by Christ when their sinnes be remitted their sinnes are remitted if they beleeue in him If they beleeue not their sinnes are reteined whose sinnes are reteined they doo continue bound For he that beleeueth not shall be condemned he that beléeueth shall be saued None shall be condemned but they whose sinnes are reteined to binde them with the chaines of darkenesse none saued but they whose sinnes are remitted and the cordes vnloosed by which they were holden UUherefore sith the Gospell is preached to this ende a sauour of life to life vnto beléeuers vnto the vnbeléeuers a sauour of death to death as we reade of Christ that the Lord sent him to preach deliuerance to the captiues and opening of prison to them that are bound in like sort his ministers whom he sent to preach it are said to binde and loose to reteine and remit sinnes So that both these kinds of spéech import the same that is signified by keyes For to binde and to reteine sinnes is to shut to loose and to remit sinnes is to open the kingdome of heauen Your owne church dooth take the keyes in this meaning euen the Councell of Trent For whereas Christ gaue to his Apostles and their successours the power of binding and loosing that is of remitting and reteining sinnes as your selues expound it this power you call the power of the keies as

sacrifice spoken of in Malachie is one and therefore betokeneth not spirituall sacrifices the which are as many as there are Christian good workes Hart. Why Because the text of the Prophet Malachie saith that there is offered a cleane oblation or offering as you call it And offering is spoken of one not of many For els he should haue saide offerings not offering Rainoldes So. And doo you thinke that he who said to God sacrifice offering thou art not delited with or as you translate it host and oblation thou wouldest not did meane the Masse by that host Hart. The Masse No. He meant the hostes and oblations of the old law For they are the wordes of the Prophet Dauid spoken of the legall and carnall sacrifices of the Iewes Rainoldes The Iewes Nay the text of the Prophet Dauid saith that God mislyked host and oblation it saith not hostes and oblations Wherefore sith he speaketh of one not of many and the carnall sacrifices of the Iewes were many but the sacrifice of the Masse is one as you say it séemeth he should meane that A point some what dangerous for the host which your Priests lift vp to be adored More dangerous for them who liue by lifting it vp Hart. Our adoration of the host is good in spite of all heretikes and not reproued by the Prophet For although he saith host and oblation thou wouldest not yet is it plaine he meaneth the sacrifices of the Iewes by a figure of spéech in which a part is vsed for the whole and one for many as host and oblation for hostes and oblations Rainoldes Then Allens second reason is not worth a shoobuckle to proue that the sacrifice of the Masse is meant by the oblation in Malachie For the word oblation or offering which he vseth in his owne language is vsed likewise still as of one not as of many through all the olde testament Wherefore if the sacrifices of the Iewes were many which neuerthelesse are called not offerings but offering the same worde applyed to the sacrifices of Christians can not inforce them to be one Howbeit were they one to graunt you that by a supposall yet might that one sacrifice be a spirituall sacrifice and so your Masse no whit the neerer For as the Prophet Esay saith that the Gentiles shal be an offering to the Lord vsing the same worde that the Prophet Malachie so the Apostle Paul exhorteth them with Esay to present their bodies a liuing sacrifice holy acceptable vnto God speaking of their sundry sacrifices as one as also in a mysterie we that are many are one body But without supposall the course of the text doth import rather that the Prophet saying there is offered an offering doth meane not one but many by that figure which you touched as by an other figure he saith it is offered meaning it shall be offered For the Lord declaring his detestation of the sacrifices of the Iewish Priests saith that he will not accept an offering at their hand but the Gentiles shall offer to him a cleane offering which he meaneth of the contrarie that he will accept And this he sheweth farther where touching it againe he saith it shall be offered vnto him in righteousnesse and shal be acceptable to him Now the offering that is acceptable to God from the Gentiles in the new testament is all sortes of spirituall sacrifices and good workes By the offering therefore mentioned in Malachie there are many sacrifices meant not one onely Which yet your olde translation maketh more euident opening the meaning of the Hebrew word by terming it sacrifices They shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in righteousenesse Wherefore sith our offering that should please God in the time of the gospell is sacrifices by the iudgement of your old translation which you in no case may refuse and sacrifices can not be meant of the Masse for that is one sacrifice but of spirituall sacrifices it may for they are many as Allens second reason saith you see we must conclude on his owne principles that the cleane offering which Malachie writeth of doth signifie the spirituall sacrifices of Christians and not the sacrifice of the Masse The third and fourth reasons haue greater shew but lesser weight For though it be true that spirituall sacrifices of praying to God and doing good to men are common to the Iewes with vs and therefore may seeme not to be the offering spoken of in Malachie which beside that it is proper to the Gospell and the Gentiles it should succeed also the sacrifices of the Iewes and be offered in their steede yet if we marke the difference that the scriptures put betweene the Iewish worship of God in the law and the Christian in the gospel that séeming wil melt as snow before the sunne For in the law of Moses the Iewes to the intent that both their redemption by the death of Christ dutie of thankfulnesse which they did owe to God for it might stil be set before them as in a figure shadow were willed to offer beastes without spot blemish in sacrifice with ceremonies thereto annexed and to offer them in the place that God should choose which was the citie of Ierusalem and the sanctuarie that is to say the temple built therein Now Christ in the gospell when that was fulfilled which the temple of Ierusalem and sacrifices did represent shewed that the time of reformation was come and remoued that worship both in respect of the place and of the maner of it For as it was prophecied that he should destroy the citie and the sanctuary and cause the sacrifice and offering to cease so him selfe taught that now the Father would not be worshipped in Ierusalem nor as the Iewes did worship him but he would be worshipped in spirit and truth The Christian worship therefore that did succéede the Iewish doth differ from it in two pointes one that it worshippeth God not in Ierusalem but in all places an other that it worshippeth him in spirit and truth in spirit without the carnall ceremonies rites in truth without the shadowes of the law of Moses The which sort of worship séeing hee requireth of the true worshippers that is of all the Saintes his seruants and in the new testament the Gentiles by the Gospell are called to be Saintes the worship that is proper to the Gospell and the Gentiles is the true spirituall worship of God the reasonable seruing of him by godlines and good workes in righteousnes and true holines euen the offering vp of spirituall sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. And thus you may sée the weakenes of those cauils which are brought to proue that our spirituall sacrifices cannot be the offering whereof God in Malachie saith it shall be offered