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A65389 A further discovery of that generation of men called Qvakers by way of reply to an answer of James Nayler to The perfect Pharisee : wherein is more fully layd open their blasphemies, notorious equivocations, lyings, wrestings of the Scripture, raylings and other detestable principles and practices ... / published for the building up of the perseverance of the saints till they come to the end of their faith, even the salvation of their soules. Weld, Thomas, 1590?-1662. 1654 (1654) Wing W1268; ESTC R27879 78,750 103

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hearing beleeved and were Baptized Acts 22.16 c. But if Nayler from that expression Christ sent me not to Baptize but to Preach will argue against Baptisme he will fully make voyd the expresse commands of Christ for Baptizing and charge sinne upon the Apostles practice so that in stead of crying downe expounding Scriptures we leave him to study what that expression meaneth Excep For the outward signes of the Supper doe this in remembrance of me till I come but when he was come then the Bread which they did breake was the Body of Christ Reply 1 We cannot but be amazed at his grosse perverting Scripture but we have showne the false meaning of that expression till he come in the Perfect Pharisee pag. 29. The Lords Supper an Ordinance to the end of the vvorld That those Corinthians to whom Paul wrote and commands to use that Ordinance Doe this in remembrance of me till the comming of Christ c. were those in whom he was spiritually come before 1 Cor. 1.2 Yet notwithstanding that spirituall comming they were commanded to eate of the Bread and drinks of the Cup to shew forth the Lords death 1 Cor. 11.26 till he come that is not till his spirituall comming in the worke of grace that was past before but his comming in glory 2. The life of saints here is a life of Faith Heb. 10.38 the just shall live by his Faith Now for the nourishing and strengthning of Faith he hath left the Seales of Bread and Wine as the holders forth of his Body and Blood for Faith to act it selfe upon and therefore before Faith be swallowed up in vision these are appointed as standing Ordinances by the Lord Iesus for the establishing of it The rest of his answer is made up of such rayling in stead of reasoning and such inconsistent expressions that we shall onely leave him to the Lord to deale with his conscience for the guilt of them Position 17. That there is no mediate Call to the Ministry He denyes not our proofe and in stead of answering the many Scripture arguments we gave in our Perfect Pharisee pag. 32. for a mediate call to the Ministry he falls to a downe-right rayling though we have nothing we need to add to the arguments we there layd down against this Position meeting with no answer to what we have written yet we shall observe in the midst of his raylings these things Naylers contradictions 1. How flatly he contradicts himselfe when he tells the Reader pag. 19. l. 8. the Apostles when they had gathered Churches out of the world they ordained them Elders of themselves yet after sayes l. 10. 11. these were ordained not by man and after l. 13. 14. this ordination was not by man nor by the Churches c. the Apostles ordained them Elders and yet those Elders were not ordained by man were not the Apostles men And was not this a mediate call wherein the Apostles ordained them Elders in every City Acts 14.23 2. Though he lab●urs with abundance of bitternesse to cry downe any mediate call yet as he answers nothing to our Scriptures so we cannot but 〈◊〉 ●ve how he is forced in the midst of his rayling to confesse the truth saying pag. 19. l. 8. the Apostles ordained them Elders which is that mediate call we contended for Lastly The substance of his rayling is to tell us that we are invested in the Ministry by Magistrates Townes and Parishes when as we doe professe we doe not know a Minister in England that is ordained or professeth to receive his ordination from a Magistrate Towne or Parish 2. All that the Magistrate Towne or Parish doe is to provide maintenance for th●se that labour in the Gospel nay the late Commission which perhaps Nayler drives at never pretended to put any in the Office of a Minister but onely provided maintenance for him in the propogation of the Gospel so that notwithstanding what he hath said we are still fully convinced of the clearenesse of a mediate call to the worke of publique Ministry of the Word And thu● we have followed him in every materiall expression though ●e answers nothing to our Scriptures or Arguments And though his great cavill be at our testimonies and upon this cryes out 〈◊〉 we published filthy lyes yet the Reader will now clearely see that of 55. proofes we layd downe he onely denyes the truth of seven which are yet fully cleared and proved either by the testimony of these that were the witnesses under their Hands and Seales or by the demonstration out of their owne Books however Nayler labours to evade and shuffle them How unjustly we have been charged with lyes will now appeare and we must seriously professe that had it not been to cleare up those truths which he chargeth with falsehood and vindicating Scripture from his grosse perverting of them his Booke is so meerely composed of rayling and abusing us and so beyond expectation sottish and senselesse that we should not have thought it at all worth our answer or observation Were we not ready according to that rule 1 Pet. 3.15 to give a reason of the hope that is in us and that Tit. 1.9.10.11 to convince gainesayers whose mouthes must be stopped we should not have troubled thee or our selves with answering such triviall exceptions as doe hereafter follow against what we have proved so plainely from Scripture against the Principles of the Quakers But that we may not seem to leave any stone unturned that may cleare up the truth to the spirits of the people of God we shall proceed to the consideration of that which followes in Naylers answer Principle 1. Not to salute any REader though we have proved that this command Luke 10.4 of not saluting any by the way were but a particular case and not generally binding as we have made evident by many Scripture Arguments and the practises of the Saints and though we have fully proved the command of Christ imposeth generall salutation upon saints as a duty as thou mayst Reade Perfect Pharisee pag. 31. 42. yet thus he excepts Excep 1 The summe of his exception is against High-way salutes To which we answer Reply 1. High-way Salutes are the knowne practice of Quakers as when they meet any of their owne way in the streets or other-where their Phrase is How dost thou and their action to take them by the Hand And if that Text command against High-way salutes how contrary is their practice to it Salute no man by the way 2. However the Quakers doe contend against high-way salutes though by their owne practice Publican-like amongst one another they contradict this Principle yet high-way salutes were the practice of saints when holy Iacob met his Brother Esau by the high-way Gen. 33.3 He passed over before them and bowed himselfe before him seven times untill he came neere to his Brother c. Did nor gracious Abigail salute David by the high-way 1 Sam. 25 23. When David was
give you a part of a dispute betwixt M. Sanderson a Minister of the Gospel and severall Quakers at Peirce-bridge Decemb. 12. 1653. attested by the subscriptions of ten severall persons part of which concerning the thing in question we have given you word for word Quaker Is not Christ the true light in every man speake Mr. Sand. Where Christ is he rules as a King but in all he doth not so exercise his Government Therefore c. Quaker In some he is kept under corruption and this I witnesse he is subdued in me this I pawne my salvation upon Mr. Sand. Its Blasphemy to say that a finite corruption should keep under an infinite Christ this is to make corruption stronger then Christ Quaker Well if a man obey the light within him he will be happy c. How undenyably doth this convince this man of his faithlesse and perfidious dealings in seeking most unworthily to shuffle off a Principle so fully owned by them Heb. 6.4.6 opened vindicated viz. that Christ in the reprobates is held under corruption yea notwithstanding his so confident denyall of this principle yet Nayler immediately forgets himselfe and falls to proving of it in justification of Audlands Letter from Heb. 6.4 6. that its impossible to renew them againe to repentance sith they crucifie to themselves the Sonne of God afresh and put him to an open shame whence he would prove that Christ Jesus is in the reprobates because they crucifie afresh the Sonne of God 1. Let the Reader ob●erve it is not said they crucifie the Sonne of God in themselves but to themselves How then doth this Text speake any thing to the upholding of his errour 2. Those the Apostle writes to were Hebrews the Iewes such as were of that people that crucified and put to death the Lord of life Now as it doth not follow that because they crucified him upon the Crosse therefore he was in them so neither doth it follow that Iesus Christ is in reprobates and apostates because they crucifie him afresh unto themselves This is enough to shew that though Apostates doe crucifie the Sonne of God to themselves yet it no way followes that Jesus Christ is in every man and in the reprobates is under bondage And for as much as it is affirmed that those Apostates there spoken of are included under an impossibility of salvation it must necessarily follow that if Nayler will suppose that Christ doth dwell in those then he must affirme that Christ doth dwell in those whose sins are unpardonable that have fin'd a sin against the holy Ghost Excep 3 There are yet these things objected to justifie this Principle Iohn 1.9 this is that true light that lightneth every man that cometh into the world Iohn 1.9 opened For the opening of this Scripture you are to know that Iohn is speaking here of the Eternall Word In the beginning was the Word all things were made by him c. so that his designe is to manifest the Divinity of Jesus Christ and the Creation of the world by him in which Creation he enlightneth every man that comes into the world He was in the world and the world was made by him these being the words immediately following that expression of enlightning every man c. It s cleare as can be that that light is that which was implanted in the soules in the first Creation Now that this light which in the first Creation was implanted in the soule and so is in every man that comes into the world is 1 Neither Christ 2. Nor a Knowledge of Christ as Mediator 3. Nor is a light sufficient to bring to Gospel salvation we shall fully cleare and so discover how miserably this Text is wrested by them L●ght in all m●●●●● not Christ in all men 1. That that light there spoken of which is implanted in the soule in the first Creation is not Christ wi●l thus appeare First It s a light Created by Christ in the soule and so cannot be Christ himselfe unlesse they will blasphemously affirme Christ to create himselfe 2 For this light with which he enli●●●n●th the soule most either be by creation or by hypostaticall union viz. by the dwelling● of the Divinity of Christ in every man as he was personally in the humane nature when the Word was made Flesh and dwelt amongst as which how horrid a blasphemy were it to assert and how loathsome would it be to any that knowes but the first Principles of the Gospel And here we must againe tell Iames Nayler of his wicked blasphemy in affirming that Christ as Man dwells in him which though we proved against him in the Booke he pretends to answer yet he wholly passeth that over in silence without a tittle of exception which we cannot but interpret as his confession that it is his Principle Light in all gives yet no knowledge of a Me●iator 2. That that light which by Christ in the creating of the world is implanted the soule is not a Knowledge of Christ as Mediator we shall thus evidence 1. First This was the light of the first covenant viz. a covenant of workes which did not a● all hold forth or make out a Mediator for it was that light which was given forth in the first creation in which Adam stood onely under a covenant of workes neither needed a Mediator before his fall upon which fall the first light of a Mediator broake out in a promise The Seed of the Woman shall breake the Serpents head as in Gen. 3 15● ver 2. The knowledge of Christ as Mediator the Scripture parely holds forth as a matter of meer Revelation given forth by God in the second covenant and not implanted in the soule in its first creation Mat. 13.11 to you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdme of Heaven but to them it is not given If Christ doe enlighten every man in the Knowledge of himselfe as a Mediator how then comes this Scripture to speake so distinguishingly to you it is given to them it is not given which exception of Christ doth clearely deny the quakers universality that it s given to all To thi● is parallell that of Christ to Peter when by the Fathers peculiar revelation he understood Iesus to be Christ Mat. 16.17 Blessed art thou Simon bar Iona for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee but my Father where he cleares Peters Knowledge of Christ as Mediator not to be from any principle of light cr●ated or naturall Knowledge but from a peculiar revelation f om the Father and pronounceth him blessed upon the account of that distinguishing discovery How fully doth that place of Paul for ever dash any pretence to a power to know Christ as a Mediator by that naturall light which is in every man that comes into the world 1 Cor. 2.14 the naturall man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God for they are foolishnesse unto him neither can
Christs being made manifest which are not voyd because they are not fulfilled in this world such as the putting of the Saints into the possession of his fulnesse of glory the putting of all his enemies under his feet c. so that perfection in holinesse being one of these things that are reserved for a state of glory we doe not destroy the end of Christs comming when we pleade he shall attaine this end in his owne appointed time and though the most holy here are full of many infirmities yet the day shall be when the workes of Satan shall be destroyed in them altogether in the time appointed by the Father the Quakers may as well say because the Saints are not now in glory therefore Christ hath lost his end in dying What we have said to this both in Christs satisfying for soules whereby he presents them perfect as to justification as also his destroying at death the whole body of sinne when they enter into a perfect state of glory will shew the vanity of his second plea for though we be not perfectly holy in our selves in this life yet we are perfect as to justification and compleat in him Col. 2.10 and though the Saints be not compleatly holy at present yet the day is comming when they shall even the time appointed by him that dyed for it and purposeth to present us spotlesse at his comming so that Christ loseth not the end of his comming Mat. 5.28 opened As to his third that Mat. 5.18 not one j●t or tittle of the Law shall passe till all be fulfilled which he brings to prove perfection in the Saints thus First It is evident that he that is there spoken of in v. 17. as fulfilling the Law is the Lord Iesus I came to fulfill it and that was solely and alone the worke of Christ both as he was the accomplishment of Prophesies in the Law or Booke of Scripture as he was the substance of all shaddowes in the Law ceremoniall and as he in Person did exactly as Mediator performe all the duties of the Law Morall that so by his obedience many might be made righteous What is this to prove perfection in the Saints because Christ fulfilled all righteousnesse 2. But the naturall and proper sense of this Text is clearely another businesse Christ is speaking here that the Law or the word of command and prophesies shall stand good and sure the word here is interpreted in the repetition of them Luke 16.17 not one jot shall fall so here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not one tittle shall passe from the Law it shall stand good and entire in it selfe Christ is not speaking as if the Law should be compleatly fulfilled and obeyed by us it shall stand in its force and authority notwithstanding that I am come yet I came not to destroy it but to continue it in its truth entirenesse and authority like that Rom. 3.31 Doe we then make voyd the Law through Faith nay we establish it And that Isay 40.48 repeated 1 Peter 1.25 the grasse withereth and the flower thereof fadeth but the Word of the Lord abideth for ever And what a non sensicall reason is this to prove that the Saints are perfect here and doe perfectly fulfill the Law because the Law shall not lose a tittle of its authority and entirenesse Rom. 8.4 opened 3. His third plea to prove the perfection of holinesse in this life is Rom. 8.4 that the righteousnesse of the Law might be fulfilled in us To which we answer First The Apostle here ver 1. is speaking of justification there is now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Iesus Ver. 3. he layes downe whence that freedome from condemnation flowes and tells you that what the Law could not doe in that it was weake through the flesh God sending his owne Sonne in the likenesse of sinfull flesh for sin viz. by a sacrifice for sinne or to satisfie for sinne condemned sinne in the flesh that is when man could not be justified by reason that sinfull flesh could not satisfie the Law God sent his Sonne to satisfie for sinne that so the righteousnesse of the Law might be fulfilled in us So that though we personally cannot and could not performe it yet through our union with Christ being dead with Christ Col. 2.20 quickned with him Ephes 2.5 we have his righteousnesse fulfilled in us Thou wilt fullier understand that this place is meant of the righteousnesse of Christ satisfying and fulfilling the righteousnesse of the Law and so made ours by our union with him if thou consider these observations 1. It is no where said in all the Booke of God that the righteousnesse of the Law is fulfilled in this life in any Saint as to inherent holinesse nay the contrary is here asserted ver 3. the Law was weake through Faith As also Rom. 3.20 that a man is not justified by the workes of the Law c. 2. It is Beza's note that the righteousnesse of the Law might be fulfilled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in us not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not of us or by us 3. Is not this to goe about to confirme justification by inherent holinesse against which you have had such undenyable proofe 4. What is this but to build up the old Popish notion of justification by inherent holinesse 5. If any shall thinke that latter expression who walkes not after the flesh but after the spirit shall tye this fulfilling of the Law in us to sanctification we referre him to the first verse where the same words are used and yet they are onely layd downe as a description of the Persons to whom there is no condemnation as they are layd downe also as a description of these persons that enjoy the fruite of that glorious worke of Christ fulfilling the Law and satisfying it So that this Text onely holds forth the satisfaction of the Law by Iesus Christ to be made really ours by our union with him as fully as if it had been performed in our owne persons But as to justification by inherent holinesse or perfection of it in this life we have fully proved the contrary Lastly He tells us we looked upon it as a strange thing that Farnesworth should say No uncleane thing can enter into the Kingdome of Heaven When as that which we say is no such thing but a challenging of Farnsworth his ignorance of the Gospel that he can see no consistency with these two A Saint cannot be perfect here And no uncleane thing can enter into the Kingdome of God Is this to count the Scripture a strange thing or is it not Farnsworths grosse ignorance that he knows no way of entring into glory unlesse he be perfect before he dye Is he not grossely ignorant of the maine mistery of justification by the blood of Christ May not a man be in part uncleane by reason of the imperfection of his present holines and yet pure and spotlesse too as to