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A47928 Toleration discuss'd, in two dialogues I. betwixt a conformist, and a non-conformist ... II. betwixt a Presbyterian, and an Independent ... L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 1670 (1670) Wing L1316; ESTC R1454 134,971 366

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toward the Vindication of Atheism then all that ever went before ye and he that overlooks our Story from 1640 to 1660 will find matter not only to stagger a Weak Christian but to put a Wiseman to a Second Thought and make him Exclaim with the Prophet Lo These are the Ungodly These Prosper in the World and These have Riches in Possession Then have I cleansed my Heart in vain and washed my Hands in Innocency To see the same Men Swearing to day with their Hands lifted up unto the Lord in a Holy Covenant to Defend and Preserve His Majesties Person And a while after with the same Consecrated Lips blessing that Cursed Vote that manifestly led to his Destruction The Vote of Non-Addresses To see Ministers like so many Pulpit-Weather-cocks shifting from Party to Party till they have run through every Point of the Compass Swearing and Counter-Swearing And when the City was split into more Factions then Parishes still to maintein that the whole Schism was Acted by the Holy Ghost To find the Pulpit Trading only in dark and Oraculous Delusions instead of plain and saving Truths and the Pretended Messengers of Peace turn'd Agents for Blood To hear and see all This and More and the Cause prosper too What could the Invention of Man add more to this Temptation to Apostacy Lastly Your Necessitated Toleration Necessitated I say for you could never have Crush'd the Government without it started so many lewd Opinions that it was some Degree of Modesty for fear of a worse choice e'en to be of No Religion at all And without Dispute many People finding it left to Indifferent of what Religion they were became Themselves as Indifferent whether they were of Any or No. So that the Scandal which you would spitefully fasten upon the Persons of some of our Party is found to be Radical and Constitutional in the very Elements of yours Neither is it All that your Imputation is misplaced but I am afraid you 'l find your self in Another Mistake Which of the Two do you account the more Tolerable SCANDAL or Schism N. C. If by SCHISM you mean A Refusal to joyn with That Church where I cannot Communicate without Sin And if by SCANDAL you intend such Actions as are of evil Example and minister Occasion to our Neighbour of Falling I think 't is easily Determin'd that the One is not to be suffer'd and the Other not to be condemn'd C. I do not speak of This or That sort or degree of Schism and Scandal but in the just Latitude both of the One and the Other That is to say without more Circumstance Which do you take for the more Tolerable Mischief of the Two N. C. Truly betwixt a Perverse Separati●…n and a Notori●…us Scandal I think the Choice is hard but I rather incline against the Scandal C. Now if ye will believe Sir Francis Bacon Schism is Both Heresies and Schisms says he are of all others the greatest Scandals yea more then Corruption of Manners Consider it as it stands in Opposition to Unity which is the Bond both of Religion and Society What can be more Scandalous then that which renders Religion Ridiculous And That 's the Effect of Schism To see so many Sects grinning one upon another and yet All Pretending to the same One and Infallible Spirit Beside that Schism seldome or never goes alone and in Truth it is but Sedition in a Disguise For we find that our Scrupulous Dissenters can with much Ease and Unity Agree in a War though not in a Ceremony N. C. And may there not be Conspiracies in Scandal as well as in Schism There with an Evident Design to bring Contempt upon Religion Whereas Here we find at least a Colour and Pretense to uphold it Further the Sins which I accompt Scandalous are many of them Lebell'd at the Prerogative of God Himself and in short the Question is not properly and simply betwixt Schism and Scandal but betwixt Schism and all other Sins whatsoever that may be Propagated by Conversation for That 's the Latitude of Scandal Again let me observe from your own Mouth that Heresies are Scandals and several Heresies you know both by the Laws of God and Man are Punish'd with Death He that Blasphemeth the Name of the Lord shall be put to Death From whence you may gather some Difference sure betwixt the Heinousness of the On and of the Other C. You will proceed by a very Uncertain Rule to measure the Sin by the Punishment for Political Laws regard rather Publique Conveniences then Particular Cases of Conscience A Man shall lose his Life for Picking a Pocket and but hazzard his Ears for a False Oath But if you 'l refer the Matter to the Iust and Infallible Iudge of all the Wo●…ld to God Himself look but into that Dreadful Judgment upon the Schism of Korah Korah Dathan c. rose against Moses with Two hun●…red and Fifty Captains of the Assembly famous in the Congregation and said unto them Ye take too much upon You since all the Congregation is Holy even every One of them and the Lord is among them Wherefore then lift ye your selves above the Congregation of the Lord And what follow'd The Earth open'd her Mouth and swallow'd them up with their Families and all the Men that were with Korah c. A Fire came out from the Lord and Consumed the Two Hundred ●…nd Fifty Men that Offer'd the Incense This set the Multitude a muttering against Moses and Aaron saying Ye have killed the People of the Lord. See now what came of This Muttering too Fourteen Thousand Seven Hundred of them were consumed by a Plague You have here not only a Dreadful Instance of God's Wrath against Schism but against a Schism also carry'd on in the Stile of Our present Non-Conformists Two Hundred and Fifty Captains of the Assembly Famous in the Congregation Which Our English Translation renders An Intelligent Sober sort of Men Numerous among all Ranks c. These rose against Moses and Aaron and said unto Them Ye take too much upon You. The Congregation is Holy and the Lord is among Them Wherefore do ye lift your selves above the Congregation of the Lord What is This but the Language of Our Age the common Objection against the Bishops for Lording it over God's Heritage The Consequences I leave before you N. C. Give me leave now to pass an Observation upon your whole Discourse You seem to have been very Punctual and Methodical in the Distribution of the Parts of it A Toleration or No Toleration was the Question An Universal Toleration you found too Wide A Limited Toleration too Narrow and yet after all This your Opinion was that a Toleration under such and such Modifications and Restrictions might be admitted Upon which Terms I was content to come to an Issue with You. Now since This Lender of a Compliance You have not proceeded Methinks with that
Free Liberty which you willingly afforded us to have of the use of our Own Chaplains makes us at this time not only to Acknowledge your Former Civilities but c. So that His Majesties Condition appears to have been somewhat more easie at Hampton-Court then before it was at Holdenby Nay most certain it is that the Presbyterians even at That very Time did the Deadly Thing that brought the King to the Seaffold Presb. How could That be when the Two Houses by Purging and Modelling were Subjected Absolutely to the Devotion of the Army Indep Thus they did it His Majesty was at That time upon fair Terms with Cromwel and Ireton and not without large hopes of a Final Accommodation The Author of The History of Independency Pa. 35. is positive as to their Treating with the King While This was in Agitation the Presbyterians were at work on the other hand to break the King's Confidence in the Army by Imputations of Treachery and Levity to divert his Majesty to the Seeking of Relief elswhere with particular Undertakings of great Matters from Scotland and the City of London This way of Tampering might very well put the King to a stand which Cromwel no sooner perceived but he Immediately betook himself to a Course of Extremity Irritated over and above as is credibly affirmed by an Advise foom Argyle in confirmation of his Jealousie His Majesties next Remove was to the Isle of Wight Where for Ceremonies sake he was presented with Four Bills and upon his Refusal to pass them followed the Vote of NON-ADDRESSES In Passing these Bills His Majesty had not only divested Himself and His Successors of all Sovereignty but Subjected his People to the Basest and most Absolute Tyranny that ever was Excrcis'd upon Mortals Presb. You will not call This the Act of the Presbyterians I hope Indep No I will not But yet I must tell you that the Presbyterians upon this Juncture did every jote as much as this Amounts to So soon as the Parliament of Scotland was thoroughly Inform'd of the Distress and Danger of the King's Condition the Matter was presently Debated and a Resolution taken to Raise an Army for his Majesties Relief In which Proceeding they were violently opposed by the Genral Assembly without any regard at all to the King's Life at that time in Q●…estion See The Humble Desires of the Commissioners of the General Assembly to the Parliament Pag. 13. We desire that his Majesties late Concessions and Offers concerning Religion as they have been by the Church so may be by the Parliament declared UNSATISFACTORY March 22. 1648. And afterward Ian. 10. 1648. That his Majesties late Concessions and Offers concerning Religion may by your Lordships DIRECTLY and POSITIVELY be Declared UNSATISFACTORY to this present Parliament And that there shall be no Engagement for Restoring his Majesty to one of his Houses with Honour Freedom and Safety before Security and Assurance be had from his Majesty by his Solemn OATH under his HAND and SEAL that ●…e shall for HIMSELF and his SUCCESSORS Consent and Agree to Acts of Parliament enjoyning the League and Covenant and fully Establishing Presbyterian Government Directory of Worship and Confession of Faith in all his Majesties Dominions and that his Majesty shall never make Opposition to any of these or endeavour any Change thereof This is Rivetted with a Mischief And pray'e shew me now the Material Difference between Precluding His Majesty by a Vote of NO ADDRESS or by a Resolution of NO AGREEMENT His Honour and Conscience being equally at Stake on either side To give you the Sum of all in short The Presbyterians began the War Pursu'd it made the King a Prisoner Sold him and in the Depth of his Calamity presented him with Templation instead of Comfort No Composition would be heard of but the Forfeiture of his SOUL for the Saving of his LIFE Presb. But the Independents however Crown'd the Wickedness with his Blood Indep Suppose it so They did only Execute the Sentence but the Presbyterians Pronounc'd it Neither did they Execute it as Independents or under colour of any Impulse of Religion or Conscience but upon Civil and Political Pretexts He was adjudged to be put to Death as a Tyrant Traytor Murtherer and Publique Enemy Not for Refusing to Enter into a Church-Covenant or Establish Liberty of Conscience but upon a Pestilent Motive of Diabolical Policy and State Whereas the Presbyterians persecuted him as PRESBYTERIANS and depriv'd him of his Royal Support Dignity Friends Freedom in Effect Life and all because he would not renounce his Reason and Conscience in favour of their Government And I am verily perswaded that you will have as little to say for your Principles as for your Actions SECT XXVI What Party soever DEMANDS a Toleration and yet Mainteins that It is Destructive both of Church and State to GRANT one Is an ENEMY to BOTH Indep AS to the Point in Question It lies Naturally before us to speak first to the Thing in it self and we may afterward consider it in the Consequences In the Desire of a Toleration the Independents ask no more then they would be ready to Allow I wish the Presbyterians could say the like Presb. In the large sense of Allowing all sorts of Libertines and Heretiques as the late Independent Government did I do confess you have out-done the Presbyterians Indep And yet Those very Libertines and Heretiques were Your White-Boys and Favourites so long as they serv'd Your Ends. They had none of this Language from you when they Tumulted against Bishops and Common-Prayer Ceremonies and Popish Lords While they were the Instruments of Your Ambition they were the Godly Well-affected Party So that Heretiques it seems will down well enough with your Politiques though not with your Consciences Provided they will content themselves to be Damn'd and let the Presbyterians alone to Govern Presb. The Independents made sweet work in Holland did they not And where was your Spirit of Toleration and Forbearance I beseech you in New-England Indep You cannot say that we gave any Trouble in Holland to the State or that we fell foul there upon Different Iudgments In New-England 't is true we excluded the Gortonists Familists Seekers Antinomians Anabaptists and Subjected them to the Censure of the Civil Power as People of Dangerous Principles in Respect both of Good Life and Government Which Proceeding of our●… methinks might serve to disabuse those that call Independency the Genus Generalissimum of all Errours Heresies Blasphemies and Schisms and take the Church way of New-England for that sort of Independency They did also exclude Papacy and Prelacy The Latter perchance more out of Regard to a Temporary Convenience then upon any rooted Principle of Implacable Severity And I perswade my self the Episcopal Party will witness thus much on our Behalfs that as to the Freedom of their Meetings and way of Worship in the late Revolutions they had much better Quarter from the Independents