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A18003 A discourse, concerning two diuine positions The first [ef]fectually concluding, that the soules of the faithfull fathers, deceased before Christ, went immediately to heauen. The second sufficientlye setting foorth vnto vs Christians, what we are to conceiue, touching the descension of our Sauiour Christ into hell: publiquely disputed at a commencement in Cambridge, anno Domini 1552. Purposely written at the first by way of a confutation, against a booke of Richard Smith of Oxford, D. of Diuinity, entitled a Refutation, imprinted 1562, & published against Iohn Caluin, & C. Carlile: the title wherof appeareth in ye 17. page. And now first published by the said Christopher Carlile, 1582. Carlile, Christopher, d. 1588? 1582 (1582) STC 4654; ESTC S107537 141,619 356

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in an other lyfe whiche when Cayne hearde hee slewe him forthwyth Ambrose also doth affirme that GOD hearethe the deade because they lyue wyth hym and doe reste in hys Pallaice hee callethe Abell the Prince Capitaine and way leader of Christian men And shall we saye then that the captaine is in worser state then y e soldiour the prince in worser case then the subiect so dothe Ambrose call him And to y e same effect doth it tende which is written in the 6. chapiter of the Reuelat. wheras the soules lying vnder the aulter apparayled in white garments saye Olorde holy and iuste how longe wilte thon tarry to auenge our bloud Amonge whom was Habel desiring the resurrection And so was Enoch as affirmeth Salomon in the booke of wisdome the 4. chapter saying these wordes Enoch because he pleased god was caried into paradise an example of good life vnto the worldes to come When he pleased god he was beloued and for that he liued amonge the wicked he was rapt vp least he shuld by their peruersity haue bene seduced Ther are in y e same place many goodly sentences which declare y ● faithful after their death furth with to receyue felicitye and the wicked or vnfaithfull misery Paule also proueth y e same Enoch saithe he was translated or taken vp from deathe to life or dyed not at all for before his translation it is written of him that he pleased god whiche for to do without faithe is impossible Thus you must nedes beleue you that will go vnto god that thee is a god that doth recōpense the faithfull and suche as loue him Wherfore it is euident that Enoch ascended into heauen Iosephus affirmeth the same Yet I know that there are some of the hebrue Doctors as Esra who taketh his translation from deathe for his deathe onely and not for any assumption howbeit the hebrue worde signifiethe not onely to take away by deathe but also to receiue vnto himselfe as god did Enoch Pselly a gréeke author affirmeth that he did flye vp into a heauenly place So is there a great nomber which affirme that he went into Abrahams bosome and into the same place whether Christ his body went Isodorus saythe that he was the 7. from Adam because that all men in the beginninge of the 7. thowsande yeare should enioye the same felicity which he did then And all the Latins in a manner saye that he went into heauen least it should haue bene thought that the fathers soules should haue bene in hell or detayned in lasye limbus Chrisostome Ephrem with other of the gréekes affirme that he is in a fortunate place Thus far of Enoch And the same I do iudge of Enos Seth Lamech Noac Sem and all the rest of the faythfull fathers whose faythe conuayed thē vp into immortallity Nowe let vs heare and mark what god sayth vnto Abraham Thou shalt sayth god go vnto thine elders and people quietly and be buried in a florishing●… age which is as muche to say when thou art dead thy soule shall spedily ascende into heauen among thine elders where it shall lyue in the abundance of ioyes Wherefore they who contend and affirme that there is no place in y e bookes of Moyses whereby the immortalitye of the soule can be proued are greatly to be blamed for it is euident of this place that the soul went vnto ioy for he said whē thou shalt dye and go vnto thin●… elders First y ● soules go vnto their elders whiche are all the faithfull Fathers and then is the bodye buryed If you should vnderstand yt of his sepulcher which is at Hebrō where he was buried in the double caue y ● ys false for ther was none of his elders buryed nor none of his familiars his wyfe Sara onely excepted thē he should haue sayd y ● shalt go vnto thy wife Sara not to thy elders if you vnderstād it of his ●…arnal fathers Thara Nachor they moste abhominable Idolatoures wherfore he ment not vnto them then must he meane those faithful men before recited who exercised the same fayth y ● hee did beleued in the same Christ. For by faythe he possessed Cananye subdued tyrantes offred Isaac and obteyned euerlasting felicitie for faith bringeth saluation as Prodromus saith in these verses which I translated out of the greeke tounge O holye faith sound perfect and pure Which of saluation doest man assure Or thus O constant faith pure and not fained Whereby euerlasting life is ob tayned God made first a Couenaunt with Adam promisinge the Seede that should tread downe the Serpentes head v●…to Noat he promised quietnes with the Rainbowe vnto Abraham hee promised the Lande of Canaan and immortalitye none of these did doubt of any thing but did beleeue the promiser Paul by their example perswded men to beleeue and thereby to obteine euerlasting lyfe And if we that are their Children doe hope by fayth to haue the fruition of God his presence how vnkynde are wee to depriue our fathers therof including them in the darke dungeon of Hell or Limbus spoylinge theym of all Ioye and Glorie Abraham is called in the Scriptures the father of all the faithful and was he then in woorse state then his children When hee had lyued 175. yeres hee departed vnto his Elders and people that is as Caietanus affir●…eth into the sweete and pleasant ●…asie of felicitye which God hath ●…repared for his elect from the beginninge hee is gathered vnto his ●…athers This Metaphor is thus ●…o bee applied that as the husband ●…an doth gather his corne into his Barne so God gathreth his faithfull seruantes into his heauenly habitation as Christ doth witnes saing that the chaffe which is the wickedshalbe burned but the corn which are his faithfull he will laye or gether it into his barne which is heauen He died saith the scripture in a pleasante age such an age such a reward soloweth such a death such a life such labor such ioyes The interlyned glose with the ordinary Strabus and also Angustine place Abraham sometime amonge the angels in y e mount Sion in the citty of the liuing God in the celestiall Ierusalem amonge the cōpany of th●… innumerable augels in the congregation of y e first born sonnes which are written in heauen sometime 〈◊〉 God the Iudge of all men among the spirites of perfect men and 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ the mediator of th●… newe testament Ambrose sayth 〈◊〉 Caietanus that this phrase of th●… gethering to his elderes can in n●… wise be referred vnto the body but vnto the soule The like is verified of Moses and Aron in Deut. 32. He that beleued as Abraham did and like wyse liued as he liued can inhabyte none other place then very heauen this city this countrye this kingdome and this inheritance is promised and ys proper and common
deliuerye from Deathe GOD the Father loosed the Sorowes of the Deathe of hys sonne in raysinge him oute of hi●… graue in making him to triumphe ouer ●…cathe as yee maye reade in these plaine woordes And we declare vnto you how that the promise whiche was made vnto the fathers God hathe fulfylled to their children euen vnto vs in that he raysed vp Iesus againe Euen as it is written in the 2 psalme Thou ar●… my sonne this day haue I begorten the. As concerning that he raysed him vp from death nowe no more to returne to death or graue said on this wise The holy promises made vnto Dauid will I geue faithfully to you Wherefore he saythe also in another place Thou shalt not suffer thy holy one to see corruption The sorrowes of deathe are like vnto the dominion of deathe and feare of Deathe from the whiche God deliuered Christ in raisīg him againe As deathe is here called the sorrowes of deathe soo is it called the stinge of deathe and the stinge of the Sepulcher 1. Cor. 15. ver 55. 56. the torment of death Wisd. 3. ver 2. the gates of deathe wis ●…6 ver 4. the dust of deathe Psal. 22. ver 15. the snares of deathe Pro. ●…3 ver 14. the shadowe of deathe Hier. 13. ver 15. Psal. 23. ver 4. Luk. ●… ver 79. the gates of deathe Psal. ●…07 verse 15. the same is called the the gates of the graue Math. 16. ver 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The same woordes are in the Ps. ●…8 and verse 5. Chebele●… m●…uetb In the 72. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Whereunto Peter respected and in the 6. verse Chebeli she oll the sorrowes of the graue Whiche place the olde translatour of the newe Testament semed to haue folowed in the seconde of the Actes verse 24. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And in the 18. psalm verse 7. the snares of deathe in the same sense withe the sorrowes of deathe Mocheshie mai●… eh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To rayse Christe from death a●… to loose the sorowes of Deathe ar●… both one For the Greekes vse t●… putte a ●…erbe and Participle bo●… of one Signification to expresse a●… Emphasis to amplify the Oration to make the sence more manifest And so is it here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 What else is it to raise Chri●… from Deathe then to loose the Sorowes of Death or to loose the sorowes of Death then to rayse hy●… oute of hys Graue One example amongst a thousande I alledge o●… of Nonnus vppon the Eleuenth 〈◊〉 Iohn 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Whereas also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is put for th●… Graue or Death That it was G●… the father that raysed Christ and 〈◊〉 loused the sorowes of Death thes●… places in the margent among other do testify most manifest in y ● Galathians These places with manie other declare his death resurrection but not one word of his descending into hell I haue bene y ● longer in this point because that I do sée others bothe olde writers and newe to apply these sorowes to Christ whiche hée loused and not to God his father who in dede loused these sorowes in raisinge of Christ from deathe Peruse y e Greke text perpend y ● authorities alleaged kepe in memory y e analogy of scripture consider the phrase cōposition of the wordes And you shall finde y ● aduersaries in an intolerable error the truth ●…iuersly oppressed to preuaile like the date trée Caluine saith that it was not possible that Christ should be holden of the sorowes of deathe where Peter saith that it was not ●…ossible that Christ shoulde bee holden of death Marcion the heretique affirmed as you do that all went to hell before Christ You do say that he deliue●…ed Abell Enock Abraham and ●…he other faithful he saith that them ●…e deliuered not because that ●…hey woulde not come to him for they feared that he woulde tempte them and punishe them as he did whiles they liued But that them there he left and deliuered Caine the Sodomite Egyptians and suche other gentiles You say that Christ went to Hell and deliuered the Fathers But after what sorte ye do not declare Clemens Alexandrinus in the .6 Stromate woulde proue by Hermes that all the godly before Christ were in hell and not saued till the deathe of Christ and then they were conuerted there by the preaching of Christ and of his Apostles And thoughe that Ireneus saith that Martion sayde that the faythfull before Christ went to hell notwith standing the saide Clemens saithe that Martion said that the faithfull before Christ were saued whiche you denie Marke your inconstancy and Consider that one of your owne faction hath noted the same partly before me euen Paulus Cortesius some saithe he deny that the soule of Christ coulde go to hell and ransacke all the places of it because that ●…t hath no body and there fore could not go nor moue locally other saye y ● the soule didnot go nor moue as a body do●…h but as the angells do Durandus and Picus deny that his soule went to hell but that onely the effecte of his Passion ●…assed ouer all Thomas Aquine ●…roueth that Christ effectuallye ●…aked all the kenells ransacked all ●…he puddles and dongeons of hell ●…ut that his soule descended onely to that parte of hell where the blessed soules were Wherefore saith ●…e his soule went onely thether where the Faithfull soules were But the effect therof went through ●…l y ● other there you say y ● it went also to purgatory Notwithstandinge Hugo Victor ●…enyethe that hee went throughe Purgatorye for saythe hee here is no place of purgation in hel or out of this life but y ● euer●… synfull soule must be tormente●… and punished there where the o●… fence was committed Richard Villa stryuethe against●… Hugo and woulde plant a purgatory in the highest hell saue one Lutzenburge in the highest place Beholde your discorde You deny●… that the Soules of Limbus we●… punished Iohan. de turre cremata a Famous writer saith that thes●… soules were diuerse times of y e da●… terrified with the hell hownds molested with their terrible count●… tenaunce feared with their frowning and beaten with whippes and with intolerable tormentes And so gathereth out of Thomas The false Gospell ascribed to Nicodemus testyfieth as many a●…surdityes as you do How tha●… Orcus and Pluto reason how the●… myght kepe CHRIST ou●… of their kingdome they be such●… Prodigious fables as are in th●… ●…reames of Brigitta and in many of y ● schole men Which are tedious to repeat folishe to bée committed to wryting ridiculous to the wise impossible to be credited hurtfull ●…o the symple mynystryng occasion of errours and engendringe a thowsande-absurdityes But to
liued but they were not ●…n Hell Ergo neither this fyre nor ●…lague was in Hell for it touched ●…he liuing and not the dead Anna the mother of Samuel in her song sayth that it is the Lord that killeth and maketh aliue that bringeth downe to the graue and ●…ayseth vp I maruell why they y ● translated the Bible at Geneua doo translate Sheol the graue in this place a little before Hell It is God that killeth and reuiueth that bringeth to deathe ●…r to the graue ●…r to deaths doore restoreth health againe If hée should bringe downe into Hel hee coulde not rayse them vp againe because y ● in Hell there is no redemption This place is vnderstanded of that place or of that miserye out of the which GOD canne ray●… manne vp but out of Hell he ray●… seth none therefore wee muste vn●… derstand it of the Graue Deathe misery out of the which he hath●… and doth deliuer many The same sense is in other woord●… in Deuteronomy 32. cap. verse 39. I kill and giue life I wounde an●… make hole And in Toby and in ●… booke of Wisdome For thou haste●… the power of life and deathe an●… leadest downe into the gates of hell and bringest vp againe The old translation doth translat●… Vnto the gates of deathe and 〈◊〉 they take Hades for death not fo●… hel as y e english doth As the cloud●… saith Iob vanisheth away so he tha●… goeth downe to the graue commeth vp no more Thus much Iob. wherby we vnderstand that a man being layd in the graue shall not rise ti●… y ● last day Then shall he rise again Iob was in like perplexitye and 〈◊〉 the like misery in the 14. chapter 〈◊〉 therefore desireth to be layd in 〈◊〉 graue or in some place vnder 〈◊〉 earth that therby he might es●…e all miseries ●…ope saith Iob for no ease no re●…se of my payne no remedye all ●…y hope is gone I hope for no●…nge but the graue my breathe is ●…rrupted my bowells consumed ●…y bones ake my dayes are spente ●…ely the graue tarieth for me ●…ere is in this first verse of the 17. ●…apter Chebar put for Sheol there 〈◊〉 Sheol defined Iob complaineth that the wicked ●…e without paine griefe go to ●…eathe and graue as it weere in a ●…eete slomber Thus dothe Munster Vatablus ●…o Iude Pellicane and Oecolampadius translate this word Sheol ●…nd the Gréeke Interpretors haue ●…he same sense and the 32. verse ●…athe Lecabaroth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 72. ●…nterpretors the graues neither is ●…here any rest in hell Iob declaring the power of 〈◊〉 in creating the world his pr●… ence in foreseing his spirit in 〈◊〉 shing his wisdome in ordering ●… hid goodnes in preseruing say●… neither the graue neither y e 〈◊〉 ter of the grounde is hidde from eyes And here haue they transl●… Sheol Hell against reason aga●… the nature of the word against propertie of the tongue and aga●… the meaning of the holy Ghost By the worde Abadon the 〈◊〉 brues vnderstande whatsoeuer conteyned in the earthe which open to the eyes of the Lord. I woulde rather vnderstande of Gods power wherby he is 〈◊〉 to rayse our bodyes putrified the Graues and cleane consu●… to dust Dauid being either ●…ore vexed conscience because of his acte ●… fence in causing Vrias to be sla●… and taking his wife Bersaba or 〈◊〉 ing sicke in bodie or afflicted 〈◊〉 enemies desireth God that he ●…ight liue and continewe a tyme healthe that he mighte be wayle 〈◊〉 acte repente with teares con●…e his faulte entreat for mercy ●…e God with humilitie obtayne ●…geuenes because saith he I 〈◊〉 perswaded that no man in the ●…aue canne praise thee none after ●…eathe canne aske forgiuenes paci●… thine indignation nor to haue ●…y hope of saluation Whersoeuer ●…e tree falleth there it lyeth The graue saith Ezechias kinge 〈◊〉 Iuda cannot confesse thee ●…eath cannot praise thee they that ●…e downe into the pitte canne not ●…ope nor be able to shew thy truth ●…mbros de bono mortis c. 2. Cyprianus ●…tra Demetri tractat ●… Hysichius lib. ●… in Leu. cap. 19. The same woordes in a manner the same sense is in Psal. 115. 17. ●…reacher 9 10. Steuchus and 〈◊〉 Romish Catholiques expounde ●…his place as I do in all poyntes Dauid triumphing that he had 〈◊〉 led Golias and giuing god tha●… therefore wisheth or rather is 〈◊〉 perswaded that god would turne●… the wicked into their graues suc●… were gods enemies his as y e P●… listin es Ammonites Moabi●… Dauid did wishe his enemies to●… taken away but not their soules●… hell he wished deathe but not 〈◊〉 nation It had bene against charity to h●… wished their soules in hell Neith●… is Sheol ioyned in anye place w●… the immortall soule whiche ne●… dieth but alwayes with the body which dieth and is buried in Sheo●… in the earth and graue Sheol is alwayes spoken of the 〈◊〉 dy as we see in the swalowing 〈◊〉 of Dathan Core Abiron 〈◊〉 went downe quicke into y e earthe euen into Sheol which is though●… to be hell of the ignorant describ●… of the obstinate beloued of y e simple commonly receiued of y e papistes ●…hy dothe the greatest Bible and ●…he Bible printed at Geneua translate Sheol the graue in the 6. Psal. ●…nd here hell Why did they not ●…nsider that the woordes were all ●…ne the sense all one the phrase all ●…ne Why doe they in some place ●…iue the right signification and in ●…ther detort it from the right sense Why doe wee loue darkenes more then lighte falshoode moore then ●…ruth Why do we prefer dreames ●…ables tales and old custome before the right vnderstanding of the scripture If Sheol be onely proper to y e body which soroweth dieth and is buried and applied to no other thing why doe they not translate it in all places alike Dauid being deliuered from the tiranny of Saul and out of the hands of all his ennemies read 2. of the Kinges 22. verse ●… firste thankethe god and secondly telleth howe that he had escaped them The sorrowes of deathe compassed me He meaned Saul and his men who compassed Dauid and his men round about to take them Must not he be sorrowfull that was in daunger of his ennemies that had muche to doe to escape deathe and the tyranny of Saule And the floudes of wickednes made me afraid By floudes is meaned y ● armie of Saul which Saul is called here Belial a wicked and cursed man without the feare God without mercy or grace fierce cruell furious the very childe of perdition therefore called Belial The nexte verse folowing is all one with this The sorrowes of the graue haue compassed me about The sorrowes of the graue and
the snares of death as foloweth in y ● same 5. verse are al one and also y ● gates of death Ps. 107. 18. which is no more but death it selfe the feare of death who doth not feare y e graue abhorre death and deteste miserie The sense is this Dauid thoughte himselfe to be at deathes doore to be nere his graue when he sawe Saul his adherents so narrowly persecute him And therfore the Chaldee paraphrast translateth the Hebrue word The company of the wicked compassed me and the armed men and so dothe the same paraphraste turne the same Hebrue word in Ps. 119. 63. Hierome translateth it in y e 2. of the Kinges 22. chapter verse 5. the coardes Is it credible that Dauid would say that the coardes of Hell should compasse him are ther coardes in Hell Is Hell a materiall place and corporall or a place spirituall could the soule be bound with coardes rather the body is so laid in the graue bound coards Was Dauid in Hell when he thus ●…omplayned Would Dauid make mention of Hell where hee neuer entended to dwell Coulde hee goe to Hell whome GOD had elected and also predestinated to heauen Whom God had chosen accordinge to his hartes desire Was Dauid so vnfaithfull that h●… coulde dreame of hell when as hee with an vnfained faith committed his Soule to the handes of God to bee caried into felicity to his custody to bee defended from sathan and Hell As CHRIST did and after him saint Stephan Nether is the hande of God anye thinge els but a sure protection agaynste the enemye a defence from the wicked and in this place that Felicitye which God prepared from euerlasting for his electe Dauid being Deliuered from his enemies as it is in the firste verse of the 30. Psalme giuethe GOD thankes and also for his healthe whiche hee had recouered And therefore saith O Lorde I thanke thee that thou hast deliuered me frō the graue from them that descēde into the pit●… meaning the graue this place also haue they hetherto corrupted depraued the sence obscured the truthe deceyued the ignorant and supplanted the Simple for it is Sheol which they translate hell The geneua bible hathe this Thow haste brought vp my soule out of the graue And the greateste byble Thou haste raysed my soule vp from the graue What a translation is this to say that the Soule is enclosed in the graue and buried with the bodye whiche is an impietye to Imagine For the soule dyethe not it liu●…the alwaye nether is it buried for that is the body nether rysethe it oute of the graue as they say but out of the bodye it ascendeth into heauen and at the last day shall returne to the body Wherefore ●…f necessity they should haue translated Nephes the bodye which dyeth and is buried of the whiche worde I will Discourse after that I haue made an ende of Sheol Which two words appertaine only to the body therefore comonly●… ioyned together to mortalitye neither of them to immortallity in any Canonicall booke of the old T●…stament as I suppose Sheol may be taken for y e disease and sicknes out of the which he was deliuered because oftentimes death graue folow after sicknes Dauid being molested with his enemies as with Saul with Sauls soldiours with the Philistines and others wisheth that his enemies might be conquered dispersed and brought to confusion to death to y ● graue Neither was Dauid so vnmercifull in his praier so cruell in his petition so vncharitable in his affection so enuious in his anger that he would wish their damnatiō but rather that they might repent returne to mercy and be saued Where Dauid inueigheth against them that truste to their treasure glory in their goodes triumphe in their territories affecting honor dignity saith that they shall not continue but dye and be put in a pit like shéepe and be laied in the grounde in a ditche graue or pit and this is Sheol Are ther any shepe buried in hell Notwithstanding sayth y ● 14. verse that both the godly vngodly shall dye as concerning their bodies be layed in a pit or hole or graue yet when the righteous shall rise to felicity and the vnrighteous to miserie w t their bodies they shall rise Therefore saith Dauid I am perswaded that God will redeeme mee from the hand of the graue will receiue me to himselfe though my body consume in the graue as the bodies of the wicked do but by and by after deathe hee will receiue my soule and at the resurrection bothe bodie and soule And so doth Lacac signify sometime as I haue noted before The godly in the laste daye shall triumphe ouer the wicked who per secuted them in this life And that is meaned by the Morning in the. 14 verse Iob declareth these verses plainlye in these words when the ryche man slepeth that is to say dyeth he shall not be gathered to his fathers that is to those his Fathers who were Faithfull whiche were and are in heauen but shalbe tossed and afflicted miserably Of the gathering to the fathers I haue spoken before and likewise noted largely vpon genesis 49. In y e 49. Psal. verses 14. 15. Sheol is thrise for y ● graue or pitas Felix also trans lateth Nether is it probable that there are any shepe in hell but the text sayth that they are there where the shepe are the shepe ●…aye not in hell but in some pit or ditche as Felix translateth or in the graue as it is in y e bible printed at Geneua The chalde paraphrast turneth and beforteth all to another sense saying that the wicked killed and murthered the iust like shepe Omitting the morning wherby is vnderstandthe resurrection in the Fourtenthe verse Dauid inueiheth against his familyar frende who was a reuolte and a traitore whose name was Achitophel 2. of the kinges 15. verse 12. cap 19. verse 21. and cap. 17. verse ●… Lyra vnderstandeth it of the inha●…ytors of Ceile 1. of the kinges 23. Dauid wisheth th●…t Achitophel his complices might go quicke into their graues be swallowed vp ●…s Chore ●…athan and Abiron were ●…ombers 19. In Hell there are no bodyes wherefore Sheol muste nedes be vnderstanded the graue and earthe as the 23. verse of the same Psalme declarethe manyfestl●…e Sheol signifieth the graue alwayes and Dauid spake as we do in englishe when we set our Children vnapte or vnthriftes or any oth●… vngratious person we will wist that he were in his graue that h●… were dead that he were layd in th●… grounde that he were as farre v●… the earthe as he is aboue 〈◊〉 that the soule were saued And Dauid was as charitable a●… we are When Dauid was in extream●… danger in so muche that Saul