either good or evil for that decree g Perk. ut supra concerning reprobated Infants is so born and died and damned as it were all in an instant for the guilt of orignall and innate sin which they brought into the world with them and for this cause h Calv. ad calumn Neb. ad Art 13 14. many children are taken out of this world and God as it were snatches the tender Infant from its mothers breast and throwes it headlong into eternall death but what is more God does not onely deal so with the children of Jews Turks Infidels but i Donteclock in pacif lit L. also with the baptised children of Christians and believers that some of them dying in their Infancy are damned Whether all the children of Believing parents dying such shall certainly and undonbtedly be saved the word of God is silent but I dare say a little more with Infants l Rippert in Colloq p. 802. which die in Christ before they are able to do good or evil 't is thus they must either be saved by grace or damned by nature as children of wrath as well as others Truly Mr. Parson this is harsh Doctrine for him who is bound to observe your Creed so that I scarce understand what to make of it Pr. But heare friend m Pareus Rom. c. 2. quest 9. if it be in the power and liberty of man to kill an Oxe or a Sheep for his use to hunt an Hare or Partridge to death for his pleasure much more does it lye in the will and freedom of the Creator without any injustice to reject or desert his creature for his own glory nay 't is a thousand times equaller that all the creatures both in heaven and earth should by their generall and eternall destruction demonstrate the divine glory and majestie then that the death of one single Fly or Gnat should go for the demonstrating of the glory of all the men in the world And this in God is not to be spoken against but prayed against and the elect cannot but give God thanks that he has condemned the wicked although he did decree them to it because he reprobated them for their good and to testifie how great his love was towards them nay the very damned have not whereof to complain but rather to give thanks for though they be fitted to destruction God fitted them not to it in vain but for many special ends and principally his own glory Th. And for this very cause n Gomar disp de Praedest pag. 105 106. I have often thought we reprobates ought to be so much the quieter for if private and peculiar good were onely to be looked after it were better not to live at all than to live a little or be a while a dying till we plunge into eternal death yet for a publick and universal good in this world the contrary to wit Damnation is better that the particular may serve for the good of the whole and the Creature make way for the glory of its Creator Therefore although in the middle of Summer my nostrils should be frozen up close yet nevertheless I might be in a possibility of smelling that it would be though we be cast into hell by God tormented yet we shall be forced to thank him that he has honoured us his Creatures with so divine a service because the o Gomar disp de Praedest pag. 105 106. dignity of the chief glory of God and of the elect is so great an advantage that the Elect by an absolute inward propensity actuated by the Spirit of God would wish if it were possible though by their own proper damnation and destruction the salvation of reprobated Jews though unbelieving and obstinate So that this same ran often in my minde how exceedingly happy shall even we the reprobated be Pr. You seem to me to have used all the industry and weighed all the Arguments that are or can be said or done about this Argument of Reprobation yet it behoved you onely to have led your life by that Word and Doctrine by which he call'd you Th. I do not deny truly but that this same Reprobation hath a long time had deep impression in me and being often troubled with it satisfied my self thus The reprobated cannot at all obey God nor believe nor convert nor justifie nor save p Musc L C. de elect c. 10. themselves though God himself should call them and therefore are not converted because God will not have it so q Trig. Dâ—f fol. 156. Calv. in Ezek. 18. 23. nay God does offer his grace both in his Word and Sacraments to some Reprobates within the pale of the Church not to that end r Anthon Thys in Doct. Ord. Eccles Reform p. 21. f. 216 217. that they should be saved by those means but on the contrary that they might have less excuse than others and might be more severely punished in the end Pr. All this is as true as truth it self s Calv. Instit lib. 3. c. 24. dist 12. for whom God has call'd to the ignominy of life and certainty of eternal death that they should be the instruments of his wrath and examples of his Justice he deprives of the faculty of hearing his Word and afterwards more and more blinds and hardens them that they may be brought to those ends to which he has appointed them Oftentimes also t Id. lib. 3. c. 2. dist 11. there is such a faith found in Reprobates which has a great affinity and similitude with the faith of the very Elect and experience teaches us that oftentimes they are carried with the same motion and sense that the elect are so that oftentimes they judge themselves to be such in truth and in deed and sometimes it happens u Beza in brev explic c. 7. Aphor. 6 7. that some are so lift up by the help of grace it self that they think they taste of the joyes to come and are really ingrafted into the true Church so that they mayshew others the way of life and believe judge of themselves no otherwise then that they are elected O how miserable are these men who ascend but to fall the lower and that God might cast them many stories lower into Hell Th. And truly I knew this very well and therefore so much the more avoided all Exhortations Sermons and reading of the Word and abandoned all good works lest my blindness should be greater and my damnation heavier Nay and did affirm x Donteclock adv Pacif. lit L. 1. as it is not the purpose and minde of God to save those hereafter which he does not call here so neither those Reprobates which he does call here because it does not please him to give them faith and repentance without which they cannot be saved God y Trigland Apol. fol. 135. requires worship and obedience from all men but has not decreed to give all men the
The Predestinated Thief A DIALOGVE BETWIXT A Rigid Calvinian Preacher AND A Condemned Malefactor In which is not onely represented how the Calvinistical Opinion occasions the perpetration of Wickedness and Impieties but moreover how it doth impede and hinder nay almost impossibilitate the reducing of a Sinner to Emendation and Repentance What doth Christ his Spirit or the Word preached profit us if the contrary be Predestinated by God If Christ would profit us by his Spirit and reform us by his Word of necessity God hath not decreed any thing to the contrary LONDON Printed by R. Trott for Daniel Jones and are to be sold at the three Hearts in S. Paul's Church-yard 1658. TO The Christian Reader WE question not but this Discourse or DIALOGUE may stick on the stomachs of some and seem strange and insolent to others who are not at all or else but very little acquainted with Discourses or Opinions of this nature Nevertheless those things which we hear by the Thief both defended maintained are not so to be judged of as if every word of it were immediately deduced from Scripture Yet whatsoever is alledged is consonant nay the very express words of those Doctors which are accounted the most Eminent and Orthodox among the Calvinists which opinion we assert to be most abominable maintaining such things as utterly overthrow Evangelical Piety and opening a wide gap to all manner of sin and iniquity Men of less piercing Intellects do not perceive how pernicious and absurd this opinion of precise and rigid Predestination is which was the very reason this Dialogue came to light that hence it might appear as evidently as the Sun at Noon-day that such Doctors and their Doctrines are to be aavoided as much as Hell Though the Inscription may seem strange or hard to thee gentle Reader let not that offend thee for 't is certain that many being carried away with a fancy to these Opinions have given themselves over to Rapines Robberies Murthers and to other more detestable wickednesses so that if we might have our wish we could wish that the sad Experience the more is the pity of many Examples did not prove it too true which considered it does evidently appear that the Title does aptly agree with the matter of this following Discourse Farewell The Names of those Doctors whose Opinions of Precise Predestination are most esteemed and quoted in this Treatise A B RUardus Acronius late Preacher at Schiedam Theodore Beza Doctor of Geneva George Buchanan of Bern Professâ—r at Lausan Martin Bucer Professor at Cambridge John Bogard late Preacher at Harlem John Becius Preacher at Dort Bern. Buschop Preacher at Utrecht C John Calvin Doctor of Geneva These six that follow were the Collocutors against the Remonstrants Peter Plantius Preacher at Amsterdam John Bogard Preacher at Harlem Libertus Fraxinus Preacher at the Brill Rvardus Acronius Preacher at Schiedam Festus Homnius Preacher at Leyden John Becius Preacher at Dort D Dunganus Preacher at Arnehem Reyneirus Donteclock late Preacher at Delph and the Brill Synod of Dort Darnman Preacher at Zutphan F H Libertus Fraxinus late Preacher at the Brill Festus Homnius Preacher at the Brill G Cornelius Geselius late Preacher at Edam D. Fran. Gomarus Professor at Groning M Marloratus Preacher at Roan Musculus P. Martyr Professor of Oxford and Tigurin N Nicasius de Schure Preacher at Gaunt Pet. Neinwenrode Preacher at Roterdam P G. Perkins an English Doctor Amandus Polanus Professor at Basil Pareus Professor at Heidelberg John Piscator Professor of Nassan in the County of Herbon R Renucherus Professor of the Hebrew Tongue at Leyden a Preacher Hen. Sturmius a Professor of Leyden Adrian Smactius heretofore Preacher at the Rhyne Rippertus Sextus Preacher at Hornan T Jab Triglandius Preacher at Amsterdam Anthon. Thisius Professor at Harderwick Dan. Tossanus Professor and Preacher at Heidelberg U John Urbanus Preacher at Hattem Z Zuinglius Tiguri Professor and Preacher at Helvetia H. Zanchius Professor at the new City of Spire A DIALOGVE Had betwixt A Calvinist Preacher AND A Condemned Malefactor Preacher A Good evening to you Sir How have you led your life all along Thief Even as the Omnipotent God who works all things according to the counsel of his own will pleased to decree from all Eternity and effect in time concerning me Pr. You say well but I do not like this but I like you worse in that you are thus fettered nor can expect nothing but a certain sudden and detestable death Th. 'T is true but I don't know whether it becomes you or me thus to grieve when neither you nor I are certain whether God from Eternity by some immutable Decree have predestinated me either to life or death eternal Pr. We will speak of that by and by and in the mean while because ye are condemned to die to morrow I am appointed here to be ready with you and am come to know whether thou desirest to be translated with the Thief into Paradise Tell me what sins you have committed that I may the better order my Instructions and Exhortations to you and teach you better for your Souls health Th. I shall willingly if you will but be pleased to hear My Parents had a care that I should be bred up in learning from a childe At last intending to send me to the Unisersity thought what they should do Leyden was full of Heresies Franeker of Deboistness and Duellings Nevertheless the Parson of our Parish would have me go to Franeker forasmuch as it is better to be Bacchus or Mars his Scholar than an Heretick because the first destroy but the Body the last murther the Soul After this away went I for Franeker where the Ale was so good the Wine so cheap the Company so ingenious that I spent all my money in jolletting As soon as my friends heard of this that I was more in the Alehouse than my Study and drunk more than I read they call'd me home and sent me into France where they live sparingly and count Drunkenness both a shame and a sin But I went to Paris where is a general concourse of all Travellers There the best Wine is worth little or nothing and I believed drinking strifly would do my business for me I spent my whole time in drinking and wenching Living so egregiously and openly wicked my friends had notice of it who as soon as they heard it sent Letters to some in Geneva and to me that I should presently go live there if I expected their blessing For our Parson had possest my friends that it was a most sanctified City in which they would neither suffer Rioting or Drunkenness Levity or Wantonness or any other unlawful or sinful action Hence the credulity of my Parents presently perswaded them that I should live there no otherwise than another Samuel with a good old Eli in the Temple of God Well there is no avoiding of it I must for Geneva or else they will neither own
power of obeying in this faln corrupted condition God requires faith of all to whom the Word is preached but will not give faith to all to whom it is revealed Pr. You seem to me to have been alwayes of this opinion Th. I was not so wedded to this opinion till such thoughts as these ran alwayes in my minde that I was really of the number of the Elect. Pr. Do not presume rashly you too confidently pronounce your self Elect when from your Childhood you have been such a rakehell and have not to this day mended your course these are but small fruits or signs of your Election Th. O good Sir you must know that all z Calv. in Instit lib. 3. c. 24. dist 10. the Elect are not called so soon as born nor all at one and the same time nay before they are congregated to the Supreme Pastor they wander in the common desert of this world in sin and are neither known to others or themselves to be elected to life till the peculiar mercy of God keep and guide them a Musc loc com de Fide c. 7. Neither is God bound to any time when or persons which to call so that 't is for no one to doubt when he shall be call'd for no sin is so great as to â—inder when heaven calls Whence it appears clear as Noon-day I am not presently to despair if I have not lived so unblameably as you would have me Pr. Yet it was your duty as the Apostle sayes by good works to make your salvation sure Th. How came you to speak so unadvisedly Sir does our Election depend on good works I 'll prove it does not and further I am perswaded that the Elect may fall b Zanch. in Mâ—scel p. 329. into great and hainous sins as Adultery Murther nay sometimes into such errours by which sometimes partly sometimes wholly the very foundation of Salvation is turned topfie-turvy or otherwise against their Conscience to sin foully and grievously c Ruard Acron Explic. Catech. qu. 53. fol. 137. against any of the Commandments of God but all these things hinder little or nothing For d Wilhel Teeling in dial de statu hom Christi pag. 44. God will not damn any of the elect though they sin because the foundation of their safety lies in his eternal act of their election neither can a thousand nay the sins of the whole world nor all the Devils in Hell destroy one of the Elect Our sins may harden our hearts weaken our faith but cannot quite destroy it nor extinguish the Spirit of God utterly So that God damns none for their sins whom he has adopted in Christ Pr. What then you did not fear to be damned Th. No not I a jot for who are e Toss de Praedest cap. 3. Zanch. de nat Dei l. 7. q. 1. predestinated cannot be cast off for ever because once elected by the immutable Decree of God and again because whom Christ loves he loves unto the end Pr. But you ought to have turn'd and conform'd your self according to the will of God that you might have obtained the remission of your sins Th. For any thing I understand you have even the same conception of f Smout in Script consent fol. 12. the New Covenant as of the Old which was placed in the condition of Works as if we would constantly believe and do this and thus God would again do for us so and so c. which rule is diametrically opposite to the New Covenant conditions g Id. fol. 31. God makes a New Covenant with us and promises us not onely when we are without any but have strayed a long way from the condition whilst we wallow in the midst of sin h Id. fol. 46. Behold God forgiveth sin before he renews the heart and does both these before we have done any good nay whilst we are in our sins and do profane his Name Hence 't is abundantly evident i Gesel probat fol. 33. that God does prosecute all his Elect with a singular eternal gracious and saving love before they believe or repent For truly as the Synod of Dort k Acta Synodi cap. 1. Art 9. sayes Election is made not from any foreseen faith obedience fanctity or any other good quality or disposition as a pre-requisite cause or condition in us that we should be thus elected but are chosen to faith and obedience so that Election is the cause from whence all good works flow and from hence faith holiness all spiritual gifts flow and at last life it self as the fruit and effect meerly of it Pr. Whither do you intend to protract this Dispute hold your tongue and leave this disputing think with your self how far the night is spent and how nigh your life is to its period and be more sollicitous how you may be saved when you shall depart this life Consider those words of St. Paul 1 Cor. 6.10 Nor thieves nor drunkards shall inherit the Kingdom of God yet you must possess it if you be saved Th. Do you think you can shew your self a Physician to my sinful sick Soul Pr. Believe in Jesus Christ mourn for your sins beg a blessed change from God an happy hour wherein he may give you the remission of your sins and life everlasting Th. What must I believe that I may believe in Christ aright Pr. You must believe that Jesus Christ by his Death and Passion merited the remission of sins and life eternal and that for you particularly This is commanded you in the Gospel Th. Whatsoever the Gospel says is it true or false Pr. 'T is truth it self Th. Has Christ by his Death and Passion purchased these things for all Pr. l Pisc con Schafm disp de Praedest pag. 12. Although humane Reason and in good men has thence taken scandal and some of the Evangelical Doctors much rage rail when they hear any teach that God would not have all men to be saved but onely such and such and Christ is not dead for all but we firmly believe on either side and that from Scripture it self so that I may assert in plain words m Perk. de Spir. desert p. 3. God has constituted no Mediator for the reprobated for Christ is the Redeemer of the Elect onely and not of others Th. Is not Christ then dead and made n Polan Explic. quar in Relig. diff p. 154. q. 4. an offering for Reprobates Pr. I pray Sir if you be one of Christs elect Sheep why do you thus patronize the Reprobate and Damned Reade the judgement of the Synod of o Synod of Dort c. 2. art 8. Dort that will teach you that this was the free counsel gracious intention of God the Father of the precious death of his onely Son to effect grace and Salvation in all the Elect giving them alone justifying faith and by it infallibly bringing them to heaven that is God
would that Christ by the blood of his Cross by which he ratified the new Covenant should effectually redeem out of every Tribe People Language and Nation those and those onely which were elected to Salvation from eternity and were given to him of his Father giving them likewise faith and spiritual gifts which he acquired by his sufferings Th. Are all men elected Pr. No p Pisc contra Schafm Thes 115. p. 119. Buc. L. C. de Praedest q. 46. for God meerly out of his own will without any respect to future impieties ordained the greatest part of mankinde to utter destruction Th. Now at length tell me seriously from your heart what you think of me am I of the Elect or no Why do not you answer Speak out and speak plain hide not truth under the ambiguity of words neither let your tongue dissent from your heart for they ought not to be divorced but speak candidly for 't is necessary that I know this If I am a Reprobate I should believe a lie for Christ has purchased nothing for Reprobates if I am Elect I follow the truth and not a lie Now to follow the truth is a work of the Gospel therefore before I do any thing else I will know whether I am elected or not Pr. q Perk. de Praedest p. 89. Gomar de Praedest Thes 4. Dungan Pacif. p. 68. Whosoever is within the pale of the Church is bound to believe that he is redeemed by Christ the Reprobate as well as the Elect yet each after a peculiar manner the Elect is bound that believing he may possess the benefit of his Election the Reprobate is bound to believe from the intention of God he may have the less to plead for himself and therefore r Gomar de Predest Thes 21. Christ is offered to Reprobates not that they should be saved but that being convicted from the incredulity and refractoriness of their hearts they may want all manner of excuse Th. Will you say God would have Reprobates to believe that which is a lie and damn them eternally too if they will not believe it and what hinders but it is so for s Nic. de Schure in Instit after he has once resolved to damn them he may do it which way he pleases Pr. Pray Sir leave off these niceties we have more need to pray to God that he would save your Soul Th. If you will be praying pray for your self for my part I will not spend time and labour so idlely If I am reprobated 't is impossible to acquire Salvation though I should spend a thousand years in praying for the Decree stands so sure t Polan in Doct. de Praedest pag. 139. that as the Elect cannot be reprobated so the Reprobated cannot become Elect for Reprobation is as immutable in respect of God reprobating as man reprobated What good can prayers do then On the contrary if I am elect God has destinated me to salvation from Eternity u Donteclock Instruct de Predest p. 93. and all whom God has ordained to salvation from the foundation of the world are brought to it by the Almighty Power of God that the purpose of Election might stand sure that it is impossible for them any way to perish This has been alwayes my belief according to which I have lived and the Synod of Dort have so confirmed me in it that I would sooner be burnt than depart an hair from it And as God x Cap. 1. Art 11. himself is most wise immutable omniscient omnipotent so that Election by him made can neither be changed revoked or broken nor the Elect perish or their number admit of addition or subtraction 'T is granted y It. cap. 5. Art 4. moreover that the Elect sometimes by the permission of God fall into grievous sins as David Peter and other Saints and they do offend z Art 5. God by such sins and incur the guilt of death grieve the holy Spirit destroy the exercise of their faith wound their consciences and many times lose the sense of grace for a while God nevertheless for the immutable Decree of his Election does not in sad failings quite take his Spirit from them neither does he suffer them to fall a Art 6. so low as to fall from the state of Adoption or Justification or to sin unto death or against the holy Ghost so that he should utterly desert them and leave them to perish infallibly for ever So that they obtain not any thing by their owne worth and strength but of the meer bounty of God b Art 8. that they neither fall totally from grace nor unavoidably into Hell But what is more than all this when as both internal and eternal Reprobation is the operation of God which does not really differ from the essence of God himself why may not we discourse and descant of Election c Polan in Doct. de Predest 'T is granted on all hands that Reprobation as well as Election does not really differ from the Essence of God and therefore it is God himself who in himself is altogether immutable and far be it from me to ask how God can be mutable Pr. Good God! what a sad hearing is this Can a man proceed so far as to be burthened with sin and misery as you are and yet will not call upon his God Th. I would sooner Sir sing that excellent Hymn made by Bernard Biscop heretofore Preacher at Oyen in Gelderland now Preacher at Vtricht till my Chamber rung again Pr. If that man has made a Hymn 't is necessary it be good for he is one teaches all Orthodox Doctrine Let me hear it Th. Hearken diligently the melody of it shall answer to the 103 Psalm You shall briefly perceive in it the universal Rule of my Belief according to which I intend to live and die I. PRaised be God who before I was born nay ere the World was predestinated me to Salvation not according to the Faith or Works which I should have or do in this life but according to his own infinite mercy II. Blessed be God who by the immutable counsel of his own Will has called me inwardly by his Spirit and outwardly by his Word who has inwardly inlightned my minde and corrupt senses by his Spirit and will more and more inlighten them III. Who has freed my base erring will the servant and store-house of sin so that I desire onely to walk in the wayes of the Lord onely to be able is wanting IV. Blessed be God who by his Omnipotent Spirit and Divine Word cooperating has implanted a firm faith in my heart such a strong faith which though by crosses and whatever is worse may be bended and yield yet cannot break V. Who shall seduce the Elect of God Who shall separate me from his love in Christ Who shall pull me out of his Omnipotent Hand Neither the Devil or Death or deadly sins shall be able by all their strength to force away my Crown VI. That good God who has begun a good work in me for his mercy sake will carry it on and perfect it even unto the end even to the end of this miserable life 'T is the Lord my God who will do this that I may persevere being alwayes guarded as it were a Prince by his Spirit Jaylor Pray make an end will you I have enough of these Disputes and Rhymings Is this one of your godly Hymns This is a Song indeed befits a Rogue and deserves singing by none but a Club of Whores and Rogues met at a Bawdy-house Your faith and your manners are even much alike Th. Even jeer on good-man Rogue as much as you will yet I esteem it for an excellent Hymn and were I to die I would sing it on the top of the highest Round of the Ladder before that of Ex profundis Domine c. Out of the deep O Lord c. The Composer of it was one of the Orthodox Contra-Remonstrants Not long ago he being called out of a little Village into the City of Vtricht he there so abundantly well argued for and defended this Hymn that there it was received into the Orthodox Church as really consentaneous to Scripture Jaylor Is this that same Orthodox Doctrine about which these Provinces are so devillishly troubled and pester'd Which that it may be had in holy reverence with the Church Synods and Souldiers use all their Authorities Truly it is a very pretty thing Pr. Sirrah you ought to hold your tongue of such things concerning which you know no more than a Dog Look to it what you say and leave to calumniate the Church and her Doctrine or it shall go worse with you for ere long you shall be so far from being head Jaylor that you shall scarce be admitted to run of a Rogues errand Jaylor If these be your best Arguments Mr. Parson yours is not so certain and good a Religion as you talk for For all your hot words I 'll tell you but thus much that you may very well know that I understand you have done little or nothing for all your many words to the turning this poor Soul from sin and translating him from death to life nay which is worse he is now much more hardned than before Indeed I have heard much of your opinions before but never believed it till now where I have been an eye and ear-witness of all is come out of your mouth Is this your Reformed Religion in good sooth If you had call'd it the Deformed Religion you had hit it as that which is not able to effect any thing of it self unless to stir up security in men and give them an occasion nay spur them to go on in sin Therefore Mr. Parson because you cannot profit this sick sinful Soul any thing by your Doctrine you may walk for I 'll light my Candle and go fetch another who shall contradict your Institutions and be of another-guess Opinion who I suppose will far sooner and surer bring a man to sorrow for his sin and a better life Pr. Do what you please so that you take it for granted you shall not thus scape unpunish'd Jaylor Do what you can I esteem this mans Soul more than your favour In the mean while though you shew your envy and bitterness too much But however God give you good night FINIS