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A14057 A new dialogue vvherin is conteyned the examinatio[n] of the messe and of that kynde of priesthode, whych is ordeined to saye messe: and to offer vp for remyssyon of synne, the body and bloud of Christe agayne. Turner, William, d. 1568. 1548 (1548) STC 24363; ESTC S108032 34,102 104

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whatsoeuer they dyd you do men ar bound to kepe the pharisees commaundement when they eyther teache men to wasshe handes before meat or to dyshonour theyr father and mother Then can ye not gather of the texte that we are bounde to obeye oure Bysshoppes and pastores in all tradytions and commaundementes whatsoeuer they commaunde vs to kepe wythoute any exception but onely in such cōmaundemētes as they haue out of the new Testament Yf that we were bounde to beleue and obeye what soeuer the preachers or ordinaries or Bishoppes dyd preache or commaūde Certayn Ieues of the secte of the pharisees whyche had beleued and professed Christ stert vp and teached the brethren Act .xv. that they coulde not be saued excepte they were circumcised and kepte the lawe wyth the Gospell was the Christē mē of that tyme boūd to beleue and to obeye these preachers commaundementes Bisshop Fyssher layde that the Bysshop of Rome was heed of the churche Bysshop Reps a lytle before the Idole of Walsyngam was put downe sayd that men should go on pylgrymage Bisshop Gardiner sayd that Images should be worshipped wyth outwarde worshyp and that men were iustifyed by theyr workes These .iii. were ordinaries were al they that wer vnder them at that tyme whē they preached suche doctrine bounde to doo as these men sayde or they were not Yf they were not I praye you tell me why were they not bounde to obey theyr doctrine and commaundemente Philargy because they commaunded bothe that it was not in the scripture and also cōtrary doctrine vnto the scripture Fremouth Then when as youre ordinary commaundeth you and your mestres Missa any thyng concerning reli gion that is not in the scripture or contrary vnto the scripture ye are not bounde to obeye hym and kepe hys cōmaundemente But thys commaundement of your ordinary where as he cōmaūdeth you to offer vp christ again is not cōmaūded of god in his scripture yea it is cleane contrary vnto the scripture wherfore ye should haue nomore in this case haue folowed the coūsell cōmaundement of your ordinary then the good Iewes kepte the commaundemente of the Pharises where they taughte men to dyshonour theyr father and mother knouuelege And I for my parte shal proue that both your kynde of presthode that offer vp Christ agayne also your mastres whom ye haue taken in hande to defende ar contrary vnto the word of God They that go aboute to make Christes sacrifyce vnperfyt ar enemies vnto the scriptur and cōtrary vnto the word of god but your preisthode wyth the messe doo so therfore they both ar contrary vnto the scripture Saynt Paule in the epystel to the Hebrwes proueth by these reasons that the sacrifyces and preisthod of Moyses law are vnperfyt because they coulde neuer make perfyt them whyche were vnder the law And in the seuēth chapter he sayeth thus speking of the lawe and sacrifices of Moyses The cōmaundement which wēt before is taken away for the weaknes and inprofytablenes of it for the lawe hathe brought nothyng vnto perfection but it was a leadynge vnto a better hope The preistes of the old law were many because they were not suffred by death to cōtinue But christ because he endureth for euer hath an euerlasting presthode wherfore he lyuynge for euer can perfitly saue thē which thorow him go vnto god Marke these wordes wel for they ar not myne but Paules Paule also in the .x. of the epistle to the Hebr. proueth that the lawe is vnperfit because it could not with the sacrifices hostes which the prestes offred vp euery yere of fresh make thē that cam to the law perfit or els saieth paul they wold haue left of offerīg Of the wordes I make thes resōs Yf the sacrifices of moses law wer vnꝑfit because thei could not make thē perfyte for whome they were offered then yf that Christes sacryfyce make not all them perfyt for whome it was offered it was vnperfyt also But ye offer vp agayne for them for whome Christe ones before hathe offered ergo ye reken that the sacrifyce of Christe made not them perfyt and so ye reken Christ no perfyter a preist then Moyses preistes were and hys sacryfyce no perfiter then theyr Sacrifices were Marke well the wordes of Paule Lex his hostiis quas singulis annis continenter offerunt nunquam potest acced entes perfectos reddere alioqui nonne desiissent offerre The law can neuer make them that come vnto it perfyte wyth these sacrifyces whyche they offer contynually euery yere the same Or els I praye you hadde not they ceased from offerynge Ye maye se by Paule here that where as there is no ceasynge from offerynge that there is no perfection of sacrifice but ye offer vp Christe again and cease neuer one daye in the yeare sauynge one yf that ye cease then from offerynge hym agayne therfore ye make as much as lyeth in you Christes Sacrifyce imperfyt Whosoeuer maketh Christes sacrifyce vnperfyt is blasphemous to Christ and is a membre of Antichryst but it it proued mastres Missa that you wyth youre chaplaynes doo so ergo ye wyth youre Chaplaynes are Blasphemous vnto Christe and membres of Antichryste That in offerynge vp Christe agayne ye be proude arrogante and take more auctorite then euer God gaue you I wyll proue it thus What soeuer the hyghe preiste maye not doo whyche is bothe God and man that can not a simple preiste laufully doo whyche is but a mere man But Christe oure hyghe preist can not offer hym selfe vp again then can no symple Preistes that are but mere men offer vp laufully Christ agayne but ye take in hande to doo so therfore it that ye take in hande is vnlaufull and ye are in doynge of youre facte presūptuous and arrogāt taking vnto you more auctorite then yt haue gyuen vnto you That Christ can not offer vp him selfe agayn these wordes of Paule to the Hebrwes .ix. do testify In ipsum coelum ingressus est ut appareat nunc in conspectu dei pro nobis non ut soepius offer at semetipsum quemadmodum pontifex ingreditur in sancta singulis annis per sanguinem alienum Alioqui oportuisset saepius passum fuisse a condito mundo etc. He entred into heauen it selfe to appere in the syghte of God for vs not to offer hym selfe ofte tymes vp as the high preist entreth into the temple euery yeare by straunge bloud For then from the begynning of the world shoulde he haue oft suffered Marke ye not here that Paule sayeth that Christ should haue oft suffered yf he had done a certayn thyng ofte that same thyng was offeryng of hym selfe as the texte dothe expressedly declare Then seynge that Paule ioyneth inseparably together ofte offerynge and sufferynge it folowethe well that so oft as Christe is offered so oft dothe he suffer and they that make hym to be ofte offered maketh hym to be slayne But ye mastres Missa wyth your chaplaynes offer Christ a thousand
heauen by the receyuyng of breade and wyne The fyrst ende or intēt of the messe whereof I made mention is declared in this secret Satisfaciat tibi domine etc. We beseche thee Lord tha● the offering vp of thys presente sacrifyce maye be a satisfactiō for the soule of thy seruaūt It is also declared in this prayer which is sayde at the ende of euery messe Placeat tibi sancta Trinitas etc. O holy Trinite let thys obedyente seruyce of my seruytude please thee that thys sacrifice which I vnworthy haue offered vnto the eyes of thy maiesty maye be vnto thee acceptable and thou hauing pytie may be propiciable and purcheser of mercy The same intent is declared in thys secrete whych is conteyned in the messe whych is sayde on the .xv. Sonday after Trinite sondaye Concede nobis domine quesumus ut hec oblatio salutaris et nostrorum fiat purgatio peccatorum et tuae propitiatio pietatis Lorde graunte vs we beseche thee that thys holsom oblation may be the purgation and clensyng of our synnes c. Also in the secrete of saynte Richarde the intēt and ende of the messe is vttered playnly in these wordes Cōcede que sumus misericors deus etc. Graunte vs mercyfull god that by the intercessyon of saynte Richarde thy confessor and Byshoppe thys rewarde offered to the eyes of thy maiesty may both purchase vs grace to lyue well and get vs euerlasting glori Also that the purpose and inter of the messe is to saue both the body the soule The secret in S. Romanes messe doth euidētly testifi in these wordes Sacrifitiū deuotiōis ●ie we besech the almyghty god loke mekeky to and regarde the sacrifice of our deuotiō and of thy benygnite at the intercessyon of thy confessor byshop Romane graūt thorow thys health of bothe body and soule Now by these wordes of the messe here rehersed it is euidēt that the ende and intent of the messe is to make satisfaction for mānes soule to purches mercy to purge synne awaye by offerynge vp of sacryfyce and to obtayne euerlastyng glory Hath the supper of the Lorde I pray you any such operation intent purpose and ende as these be Neuer one Another ende and opetion of the messe is to make fayre wether rayne These titles in the messal Missa pro serenitate aeris Missa pro pluuia doo sufficiently testify Thys doth also testify the secret of the messe sayde for rayne O blat is domine placare muneribus etc. Lorde be thou swaged by the rewardes offered vp and gyue vs the helpe of sufficient rayne in dew seasō Hath the lordes supper any such operation or intente That an other operation and ende of the Messe is to heale sycke horses meseled swyne and al other diseases both of men and beastes these titles beare sufficiently witnes Missa ꝓ peste an imaliū A messe for the mortē or pestiferoꝰ syknesses of bestes Missa Raphaelis archāgeli pro omnibus infirmit atibus A messe or Raphaell the archangel for all sycknesses Is Christes supper cōmaunded to be receyued for any suche purpose that the messe is also sayd to delyuer soules out of payne and torment the messe of Requiem in these wordes beareth recorde Pro quorum memoria etc. Lorde gyue them euerlastynge rest for whose memory the body of Christe is receyued And in this Post communionem after theyr communion Annue nobis domine per hoc sacrificium quod sumpsimꝰ etc. graunt vs Lord by thys sacrifice whych we haue receyued that the soules of thy seruaūtes may deserue to rece●● forgiuenes of theyr synnes Wher did Christe ordene that his supper shoulde be taken to delyuer soules oute of tormente That an other operation and ende of the messe is to delyuer soules out of hell thys place red in the messe of Requiem doth beaer sufficient wytnes Hostias preces tibi domine offerimus etc. Lorde we offer vp vnto the oblatyons and prayers receyue thou them Lorde for those soules whom we remembre thys daye make them Lord to passeouer from deathe to lyfe And in thys prayer Domine Iesu Christe rex gloriae etc. is playne mention mayde of delyueraunce from hell wythoute any figure or trope Lord Iesu Christ king of glory delyuer the soules of al faythfull dede men frome the hande of Hell and from the depe lake And in the prayer of Gregories Trentalle thys is the ende of the Messe to delyuer soules oute of the handes of deuelles Iustorum animae in man● dei sunt nec noc●●●t eis tormentum malitiae The ryghteouse mennes soules are in Goddes handes neyther shall any tormente of malyce vex them Then it dothe appere that the Messe goeth aboute to delyuer euell and dampned mennes soules from the place where they are that is from Hell and from the handes of the deuell Where tormentethe any Deuell any soules departed sauynge onely in hell therfore the intent of the Messe is to delyuer foules oute of hall The wordes of the Trentall messe are these Deus summa spes nostrae redemptionis qui in terra promissionis et cetera God the chefe hope of pure redemptyon whyche haste chosen before all other landes to be borne in the lande of Promyse and sufferedest death in the same place Delyuer mercyfully the Soule of thy seruaunte frome the handes of Deuelles Loo here maye ye se that the operation of the Messe is too delyuer Soules frome the handes of Deuylles Dyd Chryste ordeyne hys Supper to delyuer soules from the handes of deuelles suerly theyr is no mētiō made of any such mater in the institution of Christes supper That the messe is a memorial of ded mē and that it is done in the honoure of sayntes the wordes of the messe hereafter folowyng do manifestlye declare Pro quorum memoria corpus Christi sumitur etc. Lord gyue them euerlastynge rest in whose remembraunce the body of Christ is receyued This is sayd in an other messe Assume quesumus omnipotens deus in honore etc. We beseche the Lorde almyghty take thes oblatiōs offered vp vnto thee in the honour of saynt Eustach and hys fellowes And it is sayd in an other messe Hostias tibi domine pro commemoratione sancti Lamberti Lorde we offer vp vnto thee oblatiōs for the remembraunce of saynt Lābert thy martyr and bishop Was Christes supper ordeyned for the remembraūce only of christes passiō Or is was also ordeyned for the remembraunce of mē whych at but his seruauntes That ye messe intendeth to take synnes awaye by the offerynge of breade and wyne vnconsecrated this secrete with an C. ●no doth testify Feria quarta post letare Supplices te rogamus omnipotens deus ut his sacrificiis peccata nostra mundentur quia tunc etc. Almyghtye God we humbly beseche thee that oure synnes maye be clensed by these sacrifices for then thou gyueste the true health both of body and soule These wordes sayth the preist before the sacring onely holdynge
vnconsecrated wyne in the chalyce and vnconsecrated breade liynge vpon the chalice Now haue I proued by the very wordes of the messe that the ende of the messe is to purchase remission by offeryng of breade wyne to deserue euerlastynge lyfe by receyuynge and offeryng of Christes body to make fayre wether rayne to heale all sycknesses to bringe soules frō hel and to delyuer them from tormentes to honour sayntes and to make a memoriall of sayntes deathes and natiuites of the receyuyng of Christes body and bloud and otherwhyles to make the same of the offerynge of breade and wyne These are the operations intentes and endes of the messe and the same are not the endes and operations of the supper of the Lorde for the ende of christis supper is to remēber christes death to gyue thākes for our redēptiō and to remēbre that we all are mēbres of one body and ought therfore one to loue an other Therfor the endes of the messe the operations of the same and the ende and intent of Christes supper are diuerse and differ much one frō another whereupon it foloweth that the messe and Chrystes supper doo dyffer and ar not al one Then can ye not say that the messe was ordeyned of God in the xxvi of Mathew and that the messe is the supper of the lorde decked semely appoynted with decēt apparell for such a mistery Palemon Yf ye haue no other places of scrypture to proue hat the messe was ordeyned of god thē ye haue hyther to brought furthe she muste be dryuē out of Christes church as a mere inuētiō of mā Therfor yf ye haue any mo places bryng them furth Philargy The messe is good all goodnes is of god as S. Iames sayeth euery good gyft and euery perfect gyft is from aboue descendynge from the father of lyght ergo the messe is of god Moreouer Christ sayeth in the .xiiii. of Iohn That cōforter which is the holy ghost whom the father shal send in my name he shall teach you all thinges what soeuer I shall speake vnto you Loo here Christe promyseth that the holy Ghost shal teach the Apostles and the church all thynges that he shall speake after hys Ascension Then dyd Christe doubtles tell the Churche many thynges after hys Ascensyon whyche the holy Ghoste taught a greate whyle after and emonge those thynges that were onely taught after the ascention was the messe Also Iohn xvi Chap Christe sayeth I haue many thynges to say vnto you whych ye cā not beare now but when he shall come whych is the spirite of truthe he shall lede you into all truth Beholde here how that Christe dyfferred to shew the Apostles certayne verites tyll that he was ascēded vp into heauen They was there some truthes tolde to the churche after that Christe was ascended which was not tolde of Christe before hys ascencion of and thē is no mentiō made in the .iiii. Euangelistes And surely as I haue sayde the messe is one of them whyche was not iaught before the ascention but aftet it as our mother the holy churche beleueth whose doctrine I wyll rather folowe then all the Lutherans in Germany though therwer CCCCC tymes as many mo then now are Magis enim credendū est Marie veracique iudeorum turbae fallaci Saye not nowe but that ye haue now scripture alleged you to proue that the messe is of God Knouuleg Ye make a reasō and brynge furthe scripture to proue that the Messe is of God But howe strong your reason is and how rightly ye haue alleged the scrypture I shall shortly declare Where as ye reasō the messe is good al goodnes is of God ergo the messe is of God ye commyt a fallacy or a deceytful dryft of sophistry whych is called of the Logiciās which hate such sophisticall deceytes Petitio principii that is when a mā wyl proue a thynge to be true by the same thinge or wyth an other that is as doubtfull as that is which is called into questiō The chefe matter that we go aboute in thys accusation is too proue that the messe is vngodly full of blasphemy and therfore ought to be put out of the church And yet ye very wyttely allege thys for a prynciple and out of al controuersy that the messe is good and cōclude that therfore it is of God No no syr ye cā not bleare my eyes so Proue ye fyrst that the messe is good and then shal I graunt you your conclusiō that it is of God To the place whych ye allege out of the .xiiii. of Iohn wherwith ye would proue that Christ taught the Apostles the church certayn doctrine that he taught not before his ascentiō wherof ye saye that the messe is one I answere that ye allege the scrypture false for it is not in the text as yon allege it he shall teache you what soeuer I shall saye vnto you but what soeuer I haue said vnto you I take to witnes both Erasmus translation the Greke text which is thus Ekinosymas didaxi panta kai ypomnesi ymas panta osa eipon ymin that is to say he shall teache you all thynges put you in remembraūce of al thynges whatsoeuer I haue sayd vnto you And here may all mē se how crafte ye and vnfaythfully ye cite the scrypture allegynge one tence for an other and leauynge out the pryncipall part of the sentence As touchynge the place whiche ye allege oute of the .xvi. of Iohn in these wordes I haue many hinges to say vnto you but ye cā not beare thē now But whē he shall come which is the spriet of truth he shal lede you into all truth I answer that ye cā not proue by this place that the holy gost taught the church any doctrine which the Apostles Euangelistes haue not left behinde thē en theyr wrytinges Yf ye say that they could not abide diuers thinges before Christes ascentiō I say that they could abyde the same after hys ascentiō Yf ye would apply in this sētēce this word you only vnto the church after the apostles tyme not to the apostles ye do the apostles playn wrōg for Christ sayd these wordes vnto thē Thē what can ye gather of this place Christ promised the apostles that the holy ghost should lead thē into all truth dyd he so or no yf he performed his promise the knew the apostles all truth no parte of the truth was vnknowē vnto thē The apostles also was eyther vnfaithfull disobediēt seruaūtes vnto christ or thei were faithfull obedient Yf they were faithful obediēt thei kept thes his cōmādemētes Speake that in the lyghte whyche I spake in darkenes and speake ye that openly that ye haue hearde pryuely But Christe taught by the holy ghost the Apostles all truthe then were they eyther disobedient seruauntes or elles they taughte in theyr wryttynges all truth Yf they taught al truth in theyr wryttinges yet