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A85327 Faith in five fundamentall principles, strongly fortified against the diabolical, atheisticall, blasphemous batteries of these times Serving for the conviction of opposers, the satisfaction of doubters, and the confirmation of believers. In a conference which a godly independent minister and a godly Presbyterian minister had with a doubting Christian. By E.F. a seeker of the truth. Fisher, Edward, fl. 1627-1655. 1650 (1650) Wing F993; Thomason E1375_2; ESTC R209221 23,410 56

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need of the body nay may he not hence conclude more then this namely for the soul to worke and doe well it ought either to be without the body or else to be utterly unsubject to the body and that the full and perfect life of the soul is the full and utter with-drawing thereof from the body and whatsoever the body is made of for though the soul be the forme of the body yet it being no materiall forme the more it is discharged of the matter the more it retaines its own peculiar form To conclude then seeing that the nature the nourishment and the actions of our soules are so far different from the nature nourishment and actions of our bodyes and from all that is done or wrought by our bodies can there be any thing more childish then to imagine our soules to bee mortall because of the mortality of our bodies And now my good friend I hope by this time your soul hath so beheld her selfe in the glass of her own marvelous actions that she will henceforth conclude her selfe to bee immortall Touching the Resurrection of the body Christ WEll Sir I doe acknowledge that you have very sufficiently proved the immortality of the soul and now if Mr. B. will be pleased to prove the Resurrection of the body then wee shall have done Inde Surely friend the Scripture is exceeding full and cleare for this point and therefore I pray you first of all consider that Job saith in plaine termes Job 19. 25. I know my redeemer liveth and that hee shall stand at the latter day upon the earth and though after my skin wormes destroy my body yet in my flesh I shall see God Now doth not this Scripture plainly hold forth under us the certainty of the Resurrection of the body in that this holy man doth professe he doth beleeve that he shall see God with these very eyes at that day And I would also intreat you to consider that the prophet Isai saith Chapter 26 19. Thy dead men shall live c. In which words the prophet speakes of the Resurrection of the Saints giving us to understand that all those Saints who dye and whose bodies are layd in the dust all those shall certainly rise againe to life And I would also beseech you to consider that in Ezek. 37. the Prophet speakes most excellency of the Resurrection of the dead in shewing that a spirit of life and power shall come upon the dry bones and dust of the Saints and that they shall live in the presence of God And I would also intreat you seriously to consider that the prophet Daniel telleth us that many who sleep in the dust shall awake Some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and contempt And surly our Saviour doth confirme the same by uttering almost the same words Joh. 5. 28. 29. saying They that are in the Graves shall here the voyce of the Son of man and shall come forth they that have done good to the resurrection of life and they that have done evill to the resurrection of condemnation And consider I beseech you that Jesus Christ himselfe is risen from the dead and doubtlesse he did not rise as a private person he did not rise privately for himselfe but as a publike person representing all the faithfull and hence it is that the Apohle saith 1 Cor. 15. 13. If there be no resurrecteon of the dead then is Christ not risen And againe in the same Chapter verse 19. he concluds that if there be no resurrection of the dead then the faithfull are of all men most miserable But saith the same Apostle to the comfort of the Thessalonians who seemed to make some question of the Resurrection if we beleeve that Jesus Christ dyed and rose againe even so them also that 1 Thes 4. 29. sleep in Jesus Christ will he bring with him And I beseech you also to consider that it is said Revel 20. 21 15. And I saw the dead both great and small stand before God and the Sea gave up her dead which were in her and death and hell delivered up the dead To conclude I would pray you to minde the Argument which our Saviour useth to prove the Resurrection of the dead Mat 22. 32. in saying God is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. And God is not the God of the dead but of the living But he should not be the God of Abraham Isaac and Jocob if they should not rise againe from the dead many other places of Scripture might be brought for the further confirmation of this truth if it were needfull and especially out of the new Testament for in very deed there is no Doctrine more plainly and fully taught in the new Testament then the Doctrine of the Resurection and therefore unlesse we will make both Christ and his Apostles lyers and all the Ministers of the Gospell Cheaters Juglers and Deceivers of the people wee must needs acknowledge the Resurrection of the body and soothly if there were no Resurrection the most just and righteous God should seeme to be unjust and unrighteous who many times in the time of this life doth not reward the godly as he hath promised nor punish the wicked as hee hath threatned and hence it is that the Apostle saith 2 Thes 1. 6. it is a righteous thing with God to recompence tribulation to them that trouble the Saints and to them that are troubled rest when the Lord Jesus Christ shall be reveled from Heaven Chris But I cannot conceive how it is possible that when our bodyes are consumed to dust they should bee raised againe and besides some mens body have beene drowned in the Sea and eaten of Fishes how then is it possible that all men should rise again as you say Inde Though it be impossible with men yet it is not impossible with God for with him all things are possible yea not onely possible but also easie and therefore I beseech you be perswaded of it as an undoubted truth that that God who in the beginning was able to create all things of nothing is much more able to make every mans body at the Resurrection of his owne matter for doubtlesse it is a harder matter for him to make man of nothing out of the dust and although untill the day of Judgement the dust of all men buried doe lye in Common together in the bowels of the earth and that also with the dust of beasts yet if a man skillfull in seeds be able to seperate one seed from another and if a man skilfull in mettels be able to seperate and distinguish the earth and dust of Gold from the earth and dust of Silver and so of other mettals then surely the great and wise Creator of man Seeds and Mettals and all things else is able to distinguish the dust of men from the dust of beasts and the dust of one mans body from the dust of another and though the bodies of some men be burnt to ashes and the bodyes of other devoured of wilde beasts and others drowned in the Sea and eaten of Fishes yet God is able and will certainely gather together in one every mans body and they shall all receive that substance which belongeth to them so that there shall not be an heire of their head wanting to any one of them Chris But Sir can you shew me any resemblance of the resurrection in nature Inde Yea wee have many resemblances thereof in nature for what doth the world daily in the elements and creatures thereof but imitate our Resurrection as for example doe wee not see by the degrees of times the whithering and failing of the leaves from the trees the intermission of their fruits c. And behold upon the suddaine from a dry and dead tree by a kinde of Resurrection the leaves break forth againe the fruits wax bigh and ripe and the whole tree apareled with a fresh beauty consider wee also the little seed whereout the tree ariseth and let us comprehend if wee can how in that smallnesse of seed so mighty a tree can bee where were the Wood the Barke the glory of the beames the plentie of the fruit when we first sowed it when we first threw it into the ground were any of these things apparant no they were not what marvel is it then if of the dust of the earth God at his pleasure remarke man when from the smallest seeds hee is able to produce so bigg a tree doe we not also see the dying of the day daily into night and freshly arising againe in the morning as if it had never dyed Aagin doe we not see that before the Corne can grow and beare fruit it must be first cast into the ground and there rott and even as it springeth up againe and the Lord giveth to every graine it s owne body even so at the Resurrection shall every man be raised up with his own body And again both Philosophers and Divines tell us that the Phenix is first consumed to ashes by the heat of the Sun and that afterwards of her ashes ariseth a young one Lastly to mention no more the swallows wormes and Fishes which have layen dead in the winter yet in the spring time by vertue of the heat of the Sun they revive againe thus you see that the whole Creation doth as it were writ a Cmmentary to give us assurance of the Resurrection of the dead and so I hope this may suffice to assure you of the Resurrection Chris Well Gentlemen I must confesse you have said more for the confirmation of the truth of these points then I had thought could have beene said and I hope that my heart shall bee hereby the better establisht therein whilest I live and with many thanks unto you both for your pains I take my leave of you Inde Fare you well good friend and the Lord write the truth of these points In your heart by the power of his owne Spirit Pres The Lord bee with you and grant that what we have said may take deepe impression both in your heart and ours that wee may bee fully confirmed in the truth of these points Amen FINIS
is immortall And in Act. 7. 59. it is said that when the martyr Stephen was at the point of death he cryed out Lord Jesus receive my Spirit meaning thereby none other thing but when that his soul should depart out of his body Christ Jesus shoul be the perpetuall keeper of it and therefore assuredly it dyed not with the body but is immortall And in Luk. 23. 43. it is recorded that when our Saviour hung upon the Cross he said unto the good Thief This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise whence I pray you take notice that he could not be there with him in the body for that was immediately dead and buried therefore the meaning must needs be that his soul was gathered with the soul of Christ into Paradise and so consequently it dyed not with the body And in Phil. 1. 23. the Apostle said that he desired to bee dssolved and to be with Christ by the which it is evident that he was assured that so soone as his spirit did take leave of his body he should be happie in the enjoyment of the Lord Jesus Christ And doth not the same Apostle plainly witnesse the same truth 2 Cor. 5. 8. in saying when the soules of beleevers are absent from the body they are present with the Lord And doth not the Apostle Peter likewise seale to the same truth 2 Pet. 1. 14. In giving us to understand that there was some thing in his bodily tabernacle which must not be put off which could be none other thing but his soul and we may assure our selves that if the soul did dye with the body our Saviour would never have brought in the soul of Lazarus joying in Abrahams bosom after his death nor yet the soul of the Rich man in Hell torments Luk. 16. 23. Many other testimonies of holy Scripture might be bought for the further confirmation of this truth but I hope these are sufficient Chris But Sir because I could never yet see either in my selfe or in any other man any thing but a body I could never conceive what a thing the soul should be nor how it differeth from the body and indeed this hath made me of late to bee of their judgements who hold that the soul and body are both one and that the soul dyeth with the body Pres Well to the intent that I may clear these things unto you I pray you first of all to consider that Moses telleth us Gen. 2. 7. That after the Lord had formed mans body of the dust of the earth he breathed into his nostrils the brtath of life whereby you may perceive that the soul is of a spirituall nature and an uncorruptible substance and not a body In the creation of the soul saith a learned Author The almighty Author of the French Acad. made a blast not of his owne nature nor of his Creature the Aire but even of nothing and so new in the ordinary generation of man the soul is placed in the body not by vertue of nature it is not begotten or produced by nature but properly and peculiarly by the special working of God so that although the soul liveth and dwelleth in the body sustaining and moving it yet it is a certaine substance severall from the body and though the body hath no life in it selfe and therefore cannot subsist without the soule yet can the soul subsist and live and preserve it selfe in its substance after that it is separated from the body the soule is therefore so far from dying and corrupting with the body that it keepeth it alive and uncorrupt whilst it is in the body and doth live move and understand after that it is out of the body and though you see nothing but the body yet by the doing of the soul you may perceive there is a soul and what the soul is for the soul being of a spirituall nature as aforesaid and not a bodily we cannot see it in its own substance or nature nor have any knowledge thereof but by the testimony of the word and by the effects thereof Chris Well then Sir as you have beene pleased to give me some light and knowledge of the soul by the testimony of the Word so I beseech you doe your endeavour to add somewhat more to my knowledge by shewing unto me what be the effects of the soul Pres Well friend seeing you doe desire it I shall by the Lords assistance endeavour to let you see this truth more clearly by naturall reasons drawne from the effects of the soul for the truth is naturall reasons are as beames of the light of Gods Word and helps that may greatly further us in the understanding of the soules immortality 1. And therefore in the first place I beseech you take notice that if you doe consider of that eternity which was before the creation of the world your thought is not able to comprehend it but if you doe enter into consideration of times which shall still follow after us unto all eternity you shall finde your selfe better able to comprehend that and have a more cleare in-sight into it which shews that although your soul is not eternall in regard of beginning yet is it eternall and immortall in regard of end and was created to live an eternall life Secondly I pray you consider that in as much as mans soul was not created with his body as the soules of beast were and that it is not now begotten by way of ordinary generation as the soules of all living Creatures are we are thereby taught that God did not intend that any thing in nature should extinguish mans soule nor destroy it for if hee had so intended then would he have created and have ordered it to have come into men by way of ordinary generation as he hath done touching all other living Creatures that are mortall and therefore wee may hence undoubtly conclude that mans soul is immortal Thirdly I beseech you seriously to consider that the soules of beasts doe onely desire things present and their desire of some present good proceedeth not from any knowing vertue that is in them but onely from a sensible vertue for though beasts have a soule whereby they live and move yet is not their soul partaker of understanding but man naturally hath knowledge of an eternity yea and a disposition to beleeve it and to conceive it to be a good and profitable thing for him and thereupon doth he desire it as it is evident by that man naturally hath to live if it were possible alwaies There is not saith a learned Author so base a minde to be Duples truness Christ Religion found which coveteth not to live for ever and because they see by the daily examples of mortality that they themselves must dye therefore they do endevour to make their names eternall as much as may be as doth evidently appeare by their care of and love to their issue and posterity and by their endeavouring to do
some extraordinary act in their life time worthy of eternall fame and by their Tombs and Sepulchers which they build to make their names as eternall as they can and to what end should man desire this if there were not a possibility of attaining it nay we may assure our selves that God would not have implanted this naturall desire in man but that there is such a thing attainable by man for if he had plainted in man a desire of a thing unattainable he had dealt worse with man then he hath done with beasts who neither know nor believe nor desire any such thing from whence we may also conclude that our soules being created immortall they doe well conceive of an immortality or an everlastingnesse without end Fourthly I would beseech you seriously to consider that the brute beasts do feare a present evill of punishment in this life only but man naturally doth fear the evill of punishment after the end of his life for there is a natural impression stamped in man that vice must be punished after death as it is evident in that there was never any nation so barbarous but they were observed naturally to put a difference betwixt vertue vice so far forth as they knew it and so to have joy and content when they practised vertue and to have feare and sorrow when they practised vice and that neither for hope of reward nor feare of punishment in this life And I dare boldly say that if a Man who hath committed some gross sin should be by reason of the secrecy in the committing of it be confident that it should never be so much as known to any one man woman or childe in the time of this life yet could he not be without feare whensoever he thought upon it And what though some Epicures among us are for the present so swallowed up in the pleasures of this life that they have no thought of being called to an account for their sinnes either in this life or at the end of this life yet when did you ever hear of any such man that hath not at the houre of death beene afraid of the judgement to come for mine own part I am confident that there was never any man that when he apprehended death neare approcahing could then perswade his Conscience that his Soul was mortall and should dye with his body but then though it may be too late hee begins to think within himselfe what shall become of his soul and could then with all his heart wish that he had lived the life of the righteous and why is all this but because man naturally doth beleeve that his soul is immortall and shall come to judgement Fifthly I would also beseech you seriously to consider that although mans body I meane his sensuall appeitite can with the sensual appetite of beasts find rest and content inearthly things here below yet is his soule in a perpetuall motion and can finde no rest nor content in any earthly thing and that because it hath a secret longing desire after God though it know it not for as a childe that is new borne doth by a naturall instinct in strength of desire crye after the dugg and yet knoweth not what it wanteth even so mans poore soul doth desire God and yet through the blindnesse of his understanding it knoweth not what it wanteth and like as if an ignorant nurse should offer the childe such food as its tender age is not capable of receiving it would not be contented but would still in strength of desire crye after the dugg even so though a man should offer his soul a world of Creatures yet will they not content it for I dare boldly say that no earthly-minded man ever met with so much profits pleasures or honours in this world as did fully content and satisfie him indeed mans sensuall appetite may feed upon earthly delights and be as it were filled with the creature but what can fill mans minde not all the world for t is certain saith a learned and godly Mr. Boulton discourse true hap Author though one man were not onely crowned with the soverainty of all the Kingdoms of the earth but besides were made commander of the motions of the Sun and the glory of the Stars yet the restlesse eye of mans unsatisfied understanding would peepe and pry beyond the heavens for some hidden excellency and supposed felicity which the whole compasse of this created World cannot yield so unquenchable is the thirst of mans soul untill it bath it selfe in the River of life and the immeasurable Ocean of goodnesse viz untill it lives in him and of him in whom all things doe live and by whom all things are upheld Now then as in naturall things we may know by their motion where is their resting place even so by the motion of mans soul toward God we may certainly conclude that God is the resting place thereof which indeed is a sure testimony that mans soul is an immortall essence and so shall never dye Sixthly and lastly I would pray you to consider that although mans body may decay dye and perish if it want corporall food yet will not his soul for what can make the soul decay dye and perish can want of corporall food No for it can skil to feed upon things above the world for the minde of man is so nimble that even by way of view it feedeth upon all things take from it sensible things and the things of the understanning remaine with it stil bereave it of al earthly things and the heavenly remaine abundantly and then it feedeth at greatest ease and makes best cheare agreeable to its owne nature th● plaine truth is the soul lives best when it is most freest from all things in this world it is well known that those who want their eye-sight have their mindes most apt to understand and most firme to remember because their eyes are not busied about the beholding of outward objects and when we shut our eyes then are we best able to conceive of things spirituall in our minds yea and if we consider the matter well we shall finde that when our sences are most quenched then doth our soule most labour to surmount her selfe and the more the body decreaseth the more doth the soul increase as it is commonly seene when a man draweth nigh unto death the soul hath then the most care of her owne eternall welfare in so much as it hath been observed that when a body hath been very far spent bare consumed and withered so that whosoever looks upon it sees nothing but earth yet such a man hath been heard speake most spiritually and heavenly Now when a man doth behold such a lively soul in so weak and withered a body may hee not say as it is said of hatching of Chickens the shell is broken but there commeth forth a Chicken may he not hence conclude that for the soul to continue in its being it hath no