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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A28837	A conference with Mr. Claude, minister of Charenton, concerning the authority of the church by James Benigne Bossuet, Bishop of Meaux ... ; faithfully done into English out of the French original.; Conference avec M. Claude, ministre de Charenton, sur la matière de l'eglise. English	Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.; Claude, Jean, 1619-1687.	1687 (1687)	Wing B3780; ESTC R23256	107,935	138

CHRIST would have her alwaies visibly subsist he has cloth'd her with sensible Marks which are always to continue For see how he sends his Apostles and what he says to 'em at his ascending into Heaven Go ye therefore and teach all Nations Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World Teaching with you baptizing with you instructing with you my Faithful to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded consequently exercising with you in my Church an exterior Ministery 'T is with you 'T is with those who shall succeed you 'T is with the Society assembled under their Conduct that I shall be from this present even to the Consummation of the World alway without Interruption For there shall not be any one Moment in which I will leave you but thô absent in Body I will be always present by my Holy Spirit In Consequence of this Word St. Paul also tells us that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without any Discontinuance till the general Resurrection He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens Eph. iv v. 10 11 12 13. that he might fill all things And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the Work of the Ministry for the Edifying of the Body of CHRIST Till we all come in the Vnity of the Faith and of the Knowledge of the Son of GOD unto a perfect Man unto the measure of the Stature of the fulness of CHRIST That is to say till we have attain'd the Perfection of JESUS CHRIST glorify'd in Body and Soul This is the Term which GOD has set to the Ecclesiastical Ministery The Pretended Reformed will not have the visible Church to be that which is call'd JESUS CHRISTs Body Which is then that Body where GOD has establish'd some Apostles some Prophets and some Pastors and Teachers Which is that Body where GOD has plac'd several Members and different Graces Rom. xii v. 4 c. The Grace of Ministery the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church But that which makes the Pretended Reformed unwilling to acknowledge that the Body of JESUS CHRIST so much recommended in the Scripture can be the visible Church is their being constrain'd to say that the visible Church sometimes ceases to be upon the Earth and they have an Horror to say that JESUS CHRISTs Body is not always for fear of putting JESUS CHRIST once again to death 'T is then without Difficulty this Assembly of Pastors and People 't is this Church compos'd of so many divers Members by whom so many Holy Ministeries are exteriorly exercis'd 't is this that is called JESUS CHRISTs Body 't was to this Body assembled under the Ministery of Pastors that he said at his ascending into Heaven Lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World He then that descended is the same that ascended to the end he might fill all things Heaven by his Person and his visible Presence Earth by his Spirit and his invisible Assistance both the one and the other by his Truth and his Word And 't was for to continue at his ascent into Heaven this Assistance promis'd to his Church that he plac'd some Apostles some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers A thing which must last till such time as the Work of GOD is entirely accomplish'd till we are all perfect Men and till the whole Body of the Church be arriv'd at the Fulness and Perfection of JESUS CHRIST Thus JESUS CHRISTs Work is eternal on the Earth The Church founded on the Confession of the Faith shall always be and always confess the Faith Her Ministery shall be eternal She shall bind and loose even to the end of the World Hell never being able to hinder her she shall never discontinue the Teaching of Nations The Sacraments that is the exterior Liveries with which she is clad shall last for ever Teach and baptize the Nations 1. Cor. xi v. 26. and I shall be alway with you As often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup ye do shew the Lords Death till he come With the Supper shall last the Confession of the Faith the Ecclesiastical Ministery and the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST and of the Faithful amongst themselves till such time as JESUS CHRIST comes The duration of the Church and of the Ecclesiastical Ministery has no other Limits 'T is not then only the Society of the Predestinate that shall subsist for ever 't is the visible Body in which the Predestinate are included which preaches to them which teaches them which regenerates them by Baptism which nourishes them by the Eucharist which administers to them the Keys which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline which forms JESUS CHRIST in them 'T is this visible Body that shall subsist for ever And 't is for this reason that in the Apostles Creed where the Grounds of the Faith are propos'd to our Belief we are at the same time taught to believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and to believe the Holy Catholic Church and the Communion of Saints The interior Communion by Charity and in the Holy Ghost who animates us I acknowledge it but at the same time also the exterior Communion in the Sacraments in the Confession of Faith and in all the exterior Ministery of the Church And all that we have now said is included in this Word I believe the Vniversal Church We believe her at all times she is then always We believe her at all times she always then teaches the Truth Your Ministers will have us believe that 't is one thing to believe the Church that is to believe that she is and another thing to believe or give credit to the Church that is to believe all her Decisions But this is a frivolous Distinction He who believes that the Church always is believes that she is always confessing and teaching the Truth 'T is to this Church which confesses the Truth that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd Hell shall not prevail against her The Truth then shall never fail to be confess'd in her and consequently in believing that she is we are assur'd that she is always credible In effect the retaining some Points of JESUS CHRIST's Doctrine is not sufficient to preserve the Name of Church For then the Arians the Pelagians the Donatists the Anabaptists and the Socinians would be of the Church They are not however GOD forbid that we should call this Confusion by the Name of Church The Church must not then only keep

Claude we agree not this Novelty What is in the Scripture is not new Patience Sir I beseech you said I to him None of the Ancient Hereticks agreed the Novelty of their Doctrin they all alledg'd the Holy Scripture for themselves But there was one Novelty which they could not deny to wit That the Body of their Church was not yesterday and you granted it And well in fine said Mr. Claude if the Arians if the Nestorians if the Pelagians had been right at the Bottom they would not have been to blame in their Proceeding To blame or not said I to him is not Sir the Bottom of the Question But it still continues evident That you have the same Proceeding with them the same Conduct the same Defences in a word That in forming your Church you have done as all the Hereticks did and we do what all the Orthodox have done Every one may judg in his Conscience which he had rather resemble and I have no more to say Mr. Claude was not silent on this occasion but told me That this Argument was excellent in Favor of the Jews and Pagans and that they might maintain their Cause by the Reason I made use of Let us see said I to him Sir and remember that you promise us the same Argument The same answer'd he without doubt The Jews and Pagans upbraided the Christians with their newness you know it The Writings of Celsus and so many others are Proofs of it I agree it said I to him and is this all And 't was true proceeded he That Christianity was new if we regard it in the State immediately preceding What said I to him when JESUS CHRIST began to preach could they say to him as I do to you That in the Church he was born in there was yesterday no mention of him non his Coming What then was St. John Baptist Anna the Prophetess Simeon the Wise Men and the Priests consulted by Herod when they answer'd him That the Place of his Birth was Bethlehem Was there any one Moment when CHRIST was not expected in the Church where he was born and so well expected that the Jews expect him still 'T is very true Sir That there was a Necessity this Novelty should once be seen to happen and this Change by CHRIST expected at CHRISTs Coming But JESUS CHRIST is not therefore new Heb. xiii v. 8. He is the same yesterday to day and for ever 'T is true answer'd Mr. Claude but the Synagogue agreed not That JESUS was the CHRIST But reply'd I The Synagogue condemn'd not St. John Baptist but the Synagogue heard without contradicting them the Wise Men Simeon and Anna. JESUS CHRIST gather'd in the Synagogue the then true Church the Children of GOD which it contain'd The Synagogue at last condemn'd him But JESUS CHRIST had already founded his Church He gave it its last Form presently after his Death and the new People follow'd the old without any Interruption These are undeniable Truths And for what concerns Paganism 't is true the Pagans upbraided the Christians with their Newness But what did the Christians answer Did they not shew That the Jews always believ'd the same GOD which the Christians ador'd and expected the same CHRIST That the Jews believ'd all this yesterday and the day before and always without Interruption But Sir once again said Mr. Claude The Gentils agreed not all this What answer'd I was there amongst them any one so unreasonable as to say That there never were any Jews or that this People expected not a CHRIST and ador'd not one sole GOD Creator of Heaven and Earth Did not they shew the Pagans the manifest Beginning of their Opinions and the Date I do not say of the Authors of their Sentiments but of their Gods themselves and this by their own Histories by their own Authors and by their own Chronology Do you believe That a Pagan could have made a Christian confess That the Christian Religion was new or that there never was any Society which had the same Belief the Christians then had as I make you own That all the Hereticks which you and I acknowledg for such came in this manner and that you have done as they did See Sir how you prove That the Jews and Pagans might maintain their Cause by the same Argument I use None can ever do it nor can ever any one deny the evident Fact vvhich I affirm That vve do as all the Orthodox and you as all the Hereticks have done Here the Conversation ended It had lasted five Hours with a great Attention of the whole Assembly We heard one another peaceably We spake on both sides close enough and except the beginning vvhere Mr. Claude a little enlarg'd his Discourse in all the rest he came to the Matter and presented himself to the Difficulty vvithout Recoiling 'T is true he aim'd rather to entangle me in the Inconveniences in vvhich I engag'd him than to shevv hovv he could himself get out But in fine all this proceeded from the Cause and he assuredly said all that his could furnish him vvith upon the Point to vvhich vve had confin'd our selves For my part I car'd not to go from it since 't was that which Mademoiselle de Duras desir'd to have clear'd She appear'd to me toucht I nevertheless retir'd trembling and fearing lest my weakness might have put her Soul in danger and the Truth in doubt I Visited her the next day III. The Sequel of the Conference I was glad to see she perfectly understood all I had said This is what I had promis'd her I had represented to her That amidst the immense Difficulties which the Spirit of Cavilling and the Depth of the Christian Doctrin had caus'd to spring up a-amongst men GOD would have his Children provided of an easy Means to resolve themselves in what concern'd their Salvation that this Means was the Churches Authority that this means was easy to be establisht easy to be understood easy to be follow'd so easy said I and so clear that if you shall not understand what I shall say upon it I am contented you believe me to be in the wrong This in effect must be so when the matter is well handled But I durst not promise my self that I had treated it as I ought I knew with joy and thanksgiving that GOD had turn'd all to good The Arguments that ought to affect affected her She could not comprehend how an ignorant private Person could without an insupportable pride believe he might happen to understand the Scripture better than all the Universal Councels and all the rest of the Church She saw as well as I how weak the Example of the Synagogue was when it condemn'd JESUS CHRIST and how little reason there was to say That the particular persons who believ'd well wanted an Exterior Authority to resolve them when they had in the Person of JESUS CHRIST the greatest and most visible Authority that can be imagin'd I