what was spoken by him though yet their defence That the light was the same in nature in both the Apostles and them they preach to is unsound too For what Light was in the Ephesians who were darknesse before the Apostle preached to them The Light the Apostles Preacht was the Light of the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ that the Ephesians while darknesse had any measure of that in them we want their proof G. W. Should have done well to have vindicated his own corrupt Gloss upon that saying Ephes 5. 8. ye were sometimes darknesse viz. they had some darkness in them but he sneaks away from that and takes no notice of it Sure here it behoved him to have proved what light the Ephesians had in them of the same nature with what the Apostles brought them before their coming to them We accused them that as a main piece of their corrupt Doctrine that they say All have the Light of Christ in them and that that is whatsoever reproves any sin in men to which they bid men look for all their Light and teaching To this they say We might as well have accused Christ and the Apostles but mention not one Saying of theirs that jumps with their Doctrine for though Christ Saith I am the Light of the World yet he saith Not every man in the World hath me or my Light in him and that 's it that reproves and checks them John saith Christ is the true Light that lighteth it is not enlightneth every man coming into the World But he saith Not that that light is in every man that cometh into the World and continues in him so long as he is in the world and whatsoever he find reproving sin in him is that Light The Apostle Saith That which may be known of God was manifest in them that detain the Truth in unrighteousnesse but that it still continues in them that like not to retain it but put it from them and say to God Depart from us we desire not the knowledge of thy wayes somewhat like these mens saying That they desire not the Knowledge of that Christ we look for from Heaven and whose minds are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without judgement the Apostle sayes not Can they be without judgement that have Christs light in them seeing its his judgement that he makes to rest for a Light of the People Isa 51. 4. The Grace of God that bringeth Salvation hath appeared to all men it s said But that all receive and so have it abiding in them it s not said much lesse that whatsoever reproves sin in them is it that it s given to all we deny not And therefore men are condemned because when given them they accept it not They ask What it is in men that must leave them without excuse And we say but what of it have they in them whom it hath left or leaves without excuse is that in a man which hath left him They ask How can we shew that have not a Light of Christ in them to reprove them And we say George Whitehead George Fox and such impudent lyars if they be as much without reproof within as they seem to be without in their brazing out their lies before men and in the Scriptures those that being past feeling have given over themselves to all licentiousness to work iniquiry with greediness Ephes 4. 19. But they say We have wickedly wronged them for they do not say what soever reproves any sin is the Light of Christ But that here they themselves are the lyars and do wrong we appeal to those that heard and remember what John Whitehead said in his discourse at Gedney about the Covenant of Light how after he had told them it is given to every man and that that 's the word in men by the hearing of which comes Faith corruptible enough then propounded where it is and asked if they found not something in their consciences reproving them for sin and told them that was it they should heed that was that light and much to that purpose which when we opposed and said Satan transforming himself into an Angel of Light could for his own ends reprove for sin they exclaimed of us till we brought diverse arguments from Scripture about it And surely if Satan know that men have such principles he is so Subtile as to put himself into the form of a Reprover for many evils that so he may gain credit with them to receive his delusions as the run-about Pharisees also could do many of these steps these men walk in whether their way exposes men to follow their own Spirits on the Grounds aforesaid or onely to follow the the Light of Christ we leave it to the judgement of all that understand things that differ or that have read the relations of John Toldervy and John Gilpin and others of that way They charge it as a lye of ours that we say Geo. Whitehead derided at mens faith in the Death and Bloodshed of Christ beyond the Seas We added as if that was a good foundation of faith which they subtilly suppresse and herein we appeal to all that heard our dispute that remember and have the honesty to say what they heard and what else do they in their Book when they say our faith that is not grounded in Christs appearing in us is to be turned up by the roots Yea and again in p. 15. in what they say against our affirming the Death and Bloodshedding of Christ to be the foundation or of the foundation of our faith yea and here they shew their corruption in saying that the faith they own they know the word of it to be in the heart they mean before outward Preaching heard and that they have it not to fetch from beyond the Sea nor from above nor from beneath but it s nigh in the heart and in the mouth refusing still to take notice of what follows though with that we charge them in our Book and shewed from what follows the scope of the Apostle therein and how it favours not their corrupt conception which here they have clearly past over as not daring to meddle with it we refer the Reader then to what our Book says about it as being left unanswered by them That the light wherewith Christ lighteth every man is both Natural and Spirituall in diverse streams of it we said and explicated largely which here they dissemble here they cavil that we called not the light he lightens men with lights but light If a man should ask what peace God is Author of and we should say of all true and good peace both Temporal and Eternal outward and inward VVere not he a very caveller that would cavel at us for not saying all peaces but all peace such is their folly here As also in faulting us for not proving one light to be both Natural and Spiritual when as we never affirmed it no more then one peace to be
A Fuller Discovery OF THE Dangerous Principles And lying spirit of the People called Quakers made manifest in George Whitehead John Whitehead and George Fox the younger In their Book against Iohn Horne and Thomas Moore of Lin Regis in NORTHFOLK Written by the said Thomas Moore and Iohn Horne for the fuller satisfaction of all such as desire to be further satisfied about the evil and erroniousnesse of the said People called Quakers Most men will proclame every man his own goodnesse but a faithful man to Christ and his Cause who can find Prov. 20. 6. I marvel yee are so soon removed from him that called you not into your selves but into the grace of Christ unto another Gospel which is not another but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ But though we even Apostles or an Angel from heaven persons of most Angel-like carriage and appearance preach any other Gospel unto you as the following Discourse shews that these Quakers do then that which we the Apostles have preached unto you let him be accursed Gal. 1. 6 7 8. LONDON Printed for John Allein at the signe of the Rising Sun in Pauls Church-yard 1660. THE EPISTLE TO THE READER ONce more we have herein presented thee Courteous Reader with a discovery of the People called Quakers in which thou mayest see from their own written and printed sayings by what manner of spirit they be led and what manner of Doctrine they publish and strive to maintain and indeed the naughtinesse of their way is made manifest partly by their Principles and Doctrines broachedly them and partly by the manner of their carriage in their managing and maintaining them Wee shall give thee here a brief account of both in a few Observations 1 For the Doctrines and Principles maintained by them thou mayest observe in their Queries sent us printed with our Answers to them at the close of our Answer to their Book against us as hintâ—d and in their book more clearly asserted or implyed these following viz. I. That Christ hath no other body but his Church no personal body and so that that body of his flesh in which he suffered and bare our sins and which rose again is not a body or is not in being Book pag. 7 8 9. answered by us in our Reply pag. 25. to pa. 42. and Quest 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 11. II. That the blood of Jesus Christ or his personal abasement sufferings in the flesh to the shedding and pouring out his blood and soul to Death sustained by him once in the end or last Ages of the World are not the foundation or of the foundation of their faith so that their faith is not faith in Christs blood as so considered nor is that precious blood or those sufferings of Christ that wherewith their conscience is purged or the spiritual drink of the soul but some other thing principle or spirit in men which they put the Name of the blood of Christ upon See if this conceit or Doctrine in both parts of it negative and affirmative be not hinted in their Quest 12 13 14. seeing the body of his flesh in which he suffered they deny to remain and yet say his blood is in his flesh what can they mean by his flesh but something of his Church which onely they grant to be his body and so that his blood is nothing but some seed principle or sufferings in his Church their pleading against his blood or suffering as the foundation or of the foundation of Faith thou mayst see in their book p. 14 15 16 17. answered by us here p. 52 53 54 c. III. That the lower parts of the earth into which Christ descended and the heavens into which he again ascended are no local places but some conditions or conceits in men Qu. 3 4 5 6â— Book p. 8 9. answered by us p. 26 27 33. IV. That the same body that dies shall not rise again in the Resurrection Book p. 10 11. Answered by us p. 42 to 46. and Quest 16 17. V. That the souls of the wicked shall not come out Hell at the great day of the Resurrection and judgement to be further judged they imply Quest 18. and so that neither the souls nor the bodies of the wicked shall rise again to judgement VI. That that coming of Christ in which the dead in him shall be raised and be caught up into the Ayr together to meet him and be ever with him and in which he shall descend from heaven with a short and the sound of the trumpet c. mentioned 1 Thess 4. 15 16. is already long since past For they say the Apostles and Believers of that Age in which the Apostle wrote remained to it Book p. â— Answered p. 32. Quest 15. and so they agree with Hymeneus and Philetus that said the Resurrection is already past 2 Tim. 16. to 18. VII That the Christ we look for to come from heaven again they desire not the knowledge of Book p. 10. Answered p. 41. VIII That they are sinless or have no sin in them they deny not and that those that are believers in Christ and born of God are perfectly freed from sin as to the being of it in them Book p. 1 to 6. and yet that the little children that John wrote to who were also born of God and know the Father might have sin in them Ans p. 9 10. to p. 24. IX That all sin is guide when as the scripture distinguishes guile from other sins and other sins from guile 1 Pet. 2. â— and sayes some have no guile in their spirits who yet have sins though forgiven and covered yet there to be covered Psalm 32. 1. 2. Book p. 4. 5. Answ p. 17 18. X. That Adam might have died the natural death if he had not sinned and so that the bodily or natural death came not in by sin Book p. 6 7. Ans p. 23. XI That Christ came not to redeem men from out of the natural or bodily death B. p. 7. Ans p. 25. XII That our faith that is not grounded in Christs appearing in us is to be turned up by the roots and so by consequence that all the faith that is grounded in Christs appearing and suffering for us without us and in his appearing in heaven for us and so such faith as that of the Elect mentioned Rom. 8. 33 34 35. is by these mens Doctrines to be rooted up Book p. 10. Ans p. 41 42. XIII That the Apostles and all that were led by the spirit of God c. witnessed the Redemption of the body spoken of Rom. 8. 23. when they were upon the earth and did not put it afar off as they deridingly phrase the looking and waiting for it till after death in which they say again in effect that the resurrection of the believers body is made in this life Book p 11 12. Ans p. 47 48 XIV That the knowledge
idols will I cleanse you And as God promised to do so doth and will he do the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin and yet it follows If we say we have no sin we deceive our selves and he is the propitiation for our sins 1 John 1. 7 8. and 2. 2. As was before noted he that forgives and cleanseth us by way of pardon from all sins bids us also pray as duly as for our daily bread forgive us our trespasses c. 3. As for exhortations to be perfect they prove not the being of the thing exhorted to They supposed above the little children to whom the Apostle wrote that they might not sin might have sin in them not withstanding Nor is all perfectiom perfection of sinlesness in mens selves Asa was perfect hearted all his daies and yet had sin and sinned 2 Chron. 15. 17. and 16. 9. And yet every one that is perfect shall be as his Lord he saies not he is so yea in saying he shall be he implies he is not yet so but when he shall appear we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is This we granted but they skipt it over 4. The Apostle said they were circumcised with the circumcisiou made without hands in the putting off the body of sins of the flesh but it was in Christ he saies for so much the words in whom signifies And the same Apostle in the same Epist Col. 1. 10. 11 to the same people therefore he saith but now you also Mark now also put off all these anger wrath malice blasphemy filthy communication c. Col 3. 8 9. it seems then they had those things yet to put off still for can any put off what is not So to the Ephesians too when he had said they had learned to put off the old man and put on the new he addes wherefore putting away lying speak every man truth to his brother a lesson these men have not yet learned To the Corimbians also he saith purge out the old leaven that ye may be a new lump even as ye are unleavened so that in some sense in Christ they were unleavened and yet in other sense needed to purge out the old leaven which implies it was yet in them for how can a man purge that out of him that is not in him but they through ignorance confound these things and run themselves and Auditors into delusion Again p. 5. l. 36. They distinguish the true Prophets Christ and his Apostles from themselves that are accused by us and so again imply that they be neither the true Christ nor his true Prophets or Apostles Reader mind it they give out themselves for Prophets and Apostles and some of them say they are Christ but they are false ones and why then plead they for their false prophecyings and witnessings But they indeed shew their confusion and rayling against us as after will appear to their own delection and shame as for their innocence no liers are innocent but they be over and over proved liers that perfect heartedness and compleateness in Christ may consist with sin being in men in this life we have shewed And they cannot disprove unloss they will blot out Col. 2. 10. with Chap. 3. 8. 2 Chron. 15. 17. so 1 Cor. 5. 8. 9. Which we noted above either let them say those Scripture sayings are false or else own their own words to be false in saying that we fight against our own words and that they that are compleate in Christ are perfectly freed from sin namely as to all inherency of it in themselves or they say nothing to purpose that sinners are out of the compleatness of Christ which though in some sense true viz. Of sinners out of Christ yet is not universally true except Paul when he said of sinners I am the chief was out of Christs compleatness that the heart that hath sin dwelling in it is not perfect contrary to 2 Chron. 15. 17. with 16 17. Where Isaiahs heart is said to have been perfect all his daies and yet he is charged with relying on the King of Asyria and not relying on the Lord his God and those were heart-sins surely and they dwell there too for some time as the verses before manifest p. 6. They accuse us of confusion that we say believers are come to a further state and covenant then Adam was in before his fall who then had no sin in him and yet accuse the believers they say with having the body of sin or not being perfect while here Rep. Here they shew their own confusion for the believers being in a better state or convenant in Christ hinders not their having sin yet in themselves to purge out as is evident in Col. 2. 10 11. with 3. 5. 8 9. No more then it hinders them from having infirmides and death which Adam unfallen had not besides they have added a lie or two as that we accuse the believers with having a body of sin then Paul accused them when he said the believers old man is crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be destroyed the words might be plainly imply it a thing not then done but to be done as in all like expressions is evident and that we accuse them with not being perfect when in divers respects we grant them to be perfect as perfect in Christ Jesus and many of them perfect with Christ in their Spirits without guile there and perfect comparatively to some others c. In the same page they wrong us in giving it as our saying that Adam might possibly sin and die but not so the believers whereas we added what they suppress to not so the believer not under a covenant of works here nor hereafter the resurrection capable of sinning and dying as Adam before his fall was again they say we would accuse the Quakers of being sinners because of their dying which is false let any man read our book p 3. What we said is thus that the Quakers are not in Adams state before the fall because Adam had no death then upon him as the Quakers have for they must die but they say here our darkness appears for believers dying the natural death doth not prove them sinners while here for through death they gain more of the peace and glory of God which they partake of in their life time which is both confused and inconcludent for what if the believer gain by his death may it not therefore argue he had sin in him while he lived is not the being freed from the body of death and inherency and combating with sin again think they Though we did not bring it for an argument to prove what they charge us with as we before discovered and for their confusion their words sound as if they believed that the greater gain by their death they have it all in this live for they say not more of the peace and glory of God then they partake of in
signifies Christ as come in the flesh and so takes in that body of his flesh upon the taking whereof that Name was given him as is before noted yea he whom God hath raised from the dead and made both Lord and Christ and so a quickening spirit is said to be Christ of the Seed of David after the flesh Rom. 1. 3 4 with Acts 2. 30. 36. the same that dyed and was buried 1 Cor. 15 3. 4 45. The last Adam as also before is hinted in not confessing which they privily deny what they pretend to grant and their seeming grant is like John VVhiteheads concerning the Resurrection of Christ who at our meeting with him at Gedney pretended to believe that the same Christ that took flesh in a body prepared for him of the Seed of Abraham and David and in that body served and suffered for at a time that the same Christ was raised and glorified with the Fathers own self And yet then would by no means acknowledge though oft intreated and urged to speak plainly to the Question that he was raised and did live again and continue for ever in the same body in which he so served and suffered or that the same body that then once in the last ages suffered and was hung on the Tree was raised again from the dead and is now alive for evermore yea at last he deneyed that the same dead bodies of men that dye in Adam shall be raised and made alive again from the dead that even the same that sleep in the dust of the earth shall come forth of their Graves by Christ and so consequently that Christ is raised for if the dead rise not then is not Christ raised for Jesus Christ was dead and buried as before we have shewed So then their immagination or meaning in this equivocal grant appears to be this That the same Christ that had a body distinct from all other in which in the dayes of his flesh he suffered is now raised ascended and gone out of that body of his flesh into some imaginary spiritual being which in that body of his flesh he could not be made yet that in that his spiritual being he is in the bodies or bodies and souls of divers persons working doing or suffering the same things in them which were typically or as a Pattern suffered and done in that body of his flesh and so they neither confess him already come in the flesh or as having finished that his coming in the flesh or first appearing to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself and so the works the Father gave him to do on the earth in that his once suffering for sin nor do they confesse yea they deny Jesus to be the very Christ who is made a quickening spirit and therefore we have laid down our answer plainly and distinctly that it s not onely the same that had a body and therein once suffered but also that it s he in the same body of his flesh in which he once suffered for sins even the same Jesus whom they crucified slew and hung on a Tree that God hath made the Lord and Christ and so a quickening spirit and have explained and confirmed our answer in the expressions of the Scripture quoted by them that its the last Adam c. of which they take no notice for that fully shews the fulnesse and ungodlinesse of their immagination which therefore we again desire the Reader to mind viz. that that Scripture 1 Cor. 15. 45. speaks of two Adams the first Adam the last Adam so then they were both men and had each the personal body of a man when those things there spoken of were verified in them yea so expresly called vers 47. the first man the second man It was the first man Adam that was made a living Soul and so it is the last Adam the second man that was made a quickening spirit The Lord formed the body of the first Adam of the dust of the earth and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life Gen. 2. 7. and man became a living Soul the breath of Life did not annihilate the body formed of the dust but enlive and quicken it by possessing it and defusing it self in and through all the parts and members of it so that that breath of Life and the body of the man united the man became a Living Soul it is not said it or the breath of life became so but the man upon Gods breathing in that breath of life he even the first man Adam became a living Soul And had he abode in that uprightnesse and innocency in which he was made he might have lived for ever but as there was then none dead for him to quicken so neither was he fitted for such a work so that when he this first man Adam not keeping his first estate but seeking out inventions sinned and fell from God under the Sentence of and into a state of death and Separation from God and so death passed upon all men and they are all partakers of flesh and blood forasmuch as all have sinned in that offence of one they must all have been shut out and perished for ever in that losse and misery if God had not found out and prepared a second man Adam and made him a quickening Spirit for as by man came death so by man also the abolishing of and resurrection from the dead such was mans condition by reason of sin entered and overspreading the nature and death already passed on him in the Sentence of God that without another man a second Adam in whom Gods Truth might be fulfilled and his Justice satisfied in the punishment of sin death of the sinner and through whose Sufferings by his overcoming death the Righteousnesse of God might appear and shine forth therein we could not have been quickened or made alive Therefore for the recovery of fallen man that he might not be utterly expelled or shut out in the first death and banishment but such Redemption wrought and obtained for him that through the Redeemer he might be saved and that they might be all in due time made alive or raised from the first death to appear before the judgement Seat of their Redeemer therefore God found out and prepared a second Adam and made him a quickening spirit Now this second Adam was even his onely begotten Son the Word that was in the beginning with God and so before the first Adam and he by whom and for whom the first Adam and all things were made that were made the proper Lord and Heir of all things for he onely was able and meet to undertake such a work and to have help laid upon him for us but he was made flesh of a woman and so made man the second Adam in the fulnesse of time once in the end of the World and that by a wonderful work of new Creation by the Grace Gift and Appointment of the Father and by the Operation
save he saith not in the time past I was but in the time present I am the chief For though he did not sin so grosly as before yet he was still the same sinner or sinfull man that Christ came to save yea and might possibly account every small neglect or failing a greater sin now then his greatest sins before because sensible now of his more ingagement to Christ for his having shewed him such favour a smaller offence against greater knowledge and mercy may be greater then a greater sin against less knowledge and mercy however what he said of Paul we proved and prove yet from the Text that is that he said of himself even then when an Apostle that then in the present tense he was a chief sinner if he said falsely of himself then was he therein a sinner if true then have not we said falsely of Paul nor accused him W. F. They say As for the Scriptures we bring 1 Joh. 1. 8 9 10. and Jam. 3. 1 2. These prove not that we would have them that the Saints were not perfectly freed from sin in this life they did not preach up sin and imperfection to remain in this liâ—e as they say we do for both James and Joh. exhort them otherwise for said James let patience have her perfect work that you may be perfect and intire wanting nothing James 1. 4. And John said if we walk in the light as he is in the iight we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin 1 Joh. 1. 7. and Chap. 2. 1. My little children these things have I writ unto you that yee sin not and if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father so he did not include them all as to remain sinners for they were all sinners while they were not cleansed by the blood of Christ Rep. 1. That these Scriptures prove not that the Saints were not perfectly freed from sin in this life it 's but their saying so for are they perfectly freed from sin as to the being of it in them that have it as these say they had and David saith no man living and sure men are living while they are in this life is so free from sin as to be justified if God enter into judgement with them Psal 143. 2. And as for preaching up sin and imperfection that is falsely and slanderously said of us do we preach them up because we say they remain sure then David preacht them up when he said as above 2 James and John exhort to the contrary they say is this a good argument or a piece of sophistry John and James exhorted against sin therefore they did not sin is it not as good to say God commands all men every where to Repent therefore no man is impenitont all do repent James said let patience have its perfect work that ye may be perfect c. Therefore it seems they were not yet perfect nor intire but wanted something why else would he have so exhorted them Nor doth that prove they ever were so perfect and intire as to have no sin in them while here seeing Asa was perfect all his dayes yet had sin and sinned 2 Chron. 15. 17. and 16. 7. 10. 12. Do the Apostles say let no sin be in you any where Men are perfect and intire and want nothing when they have all things that may further them to their glorifying God here in their generation though they be not perfectly possest of all things they are capable of attaining hereafter may they not as well say men may have all their happiness and glory here before their decease the resurrection and whatever they may have in the world to come because James saith that ye may be perfect and intire wanting nothing Again can patience be said to have its perfect work in any so long as it hath any further exercise for it and hath it not something further till death be over 3. To Johns saying What need of cleansing from all sin where is no sin to be cleansed from He saith not it hath cleansed us already but cleanseth us what cleanseth now finds something to be cleansed from and doth not the Apostle plainly say so much when he immediatly adds If we say we have no sin we deceive our selves let all judge how these Quakers and the Apostles cross one the other They say because it cleanseth us from all sin those that it so cleanseth have no sin the Apostle says immediately after that saying If we say we have no sin we deceiâ—e our selves doth not prove these men to be deceived and so to deceive others seeing they are of such as say so 4. What made them stop in their next proof at we have an Advocate when the Apostle adds and be is the propitiation for our sins they see the words our sins mentioned there and that scared them from the quoting it so far Oh do not their Consciences accuse them as juglers and deceivers in this Argument and that they are afraid of the light it shines so full against them 5. And how follows their Conclusion then So then he did not include them all as to remain sinners c. Whom did he exclude seeing the blood of Christ cleanseth them that have fellowship with God and had not the Apostles so by their own confession yet they say our sins and if we say we have no sin even we that have fellowship with God we deceive our selves But they ask W. and F. What one sin or sins we can lay to Paul or James or Johns charge or to any of them that they were not perfectly freed from sin before their decease let them prove some sin say they of us which was not destroyed in any of those before their decease and who can lay any thing to the charge of Gods Elect let them speak out and answer directly or for ever be silent from pleading for sin or accusing the righteous as they have done Rep. It is enough that we beleeve Paul and James and John that they had sin and did in many things all offend though we cannot name their particular offences as it is to believe multitudes to have died though we know not of what particular diseases would it not be a fine argument to say prove of what particular diseases Ezra and Nehemiah and Esther died or else be for ever silent of accusing them to have been mortall That in many things they all offended we believe because James tells us so but what were their many offences we know not because they tell us not we can tell some sins these men are guilty of if they had asked us namely of lying deceit guile sophistry taking up a reproach against their neighbour as they do in the conclusion of their Book Thomas Moore Sen. But what John and James in particular were guilty of besides naturall infirmity we cannot tell because the Holy Ghost hath not told us nor do we
lay any thing to their charge nor did God because he forgave justified and owned them through Christs death and intercession for them which he needed not to have made for them or been the propitiation for their sins had they had no sins then yea it was their abiding in the faith of Christ and living upon him as the propitiation for their sins in which they sinned not and the ceasing to live upon that as of no need for a man as having no sins for Christ to be the propitiation for is one way of going out from Christ into a mans self and so of not abiding in him not say we their sins were not destroyed as to the dominion of them over them much less that they were not freed from them through Christs mediation as to the imputation of them they were covered though they were there to cover they adde W. F. John did not say if we are not all sinners we deceive our selves but if we say we have no sin and have not sinned which if the little children that John wrote to that they might not sin had sin then John might say we have sin for he numbred himself with them as friends or those whose sins were forgiven and yet the yong men and Fathers he wrote to had overcome the wicked one and had the word of God abiding in them 1 Joh. 2. Rep. What confused deceitfull stuffe is this for 1. What doth that word which belong to and agree with And how come in those words or those whose sins were forgiven or how hang they with what went before them 2. Are they not all sinners that have sin and that have sinned What call they them then And if they had sin then how were they sinless as they plead 3. And what if John say not so yet Paul said of whom viz sinners I am the chief and said so When he wrote to Timothy and was an Apostle and James says in many things not onely we have sinned but in the presenttense we offend all are not offenders sinners 4. If the little children wrote to that they might not sin had sin what becomes then of their former argument from exhortations to be perfect or not to sin c. 5. And if John might thence say we have sin as numbring himself with them as friends what hypocrites be they then to fall so foul upon us because numbering our selves with the Nation we said we have neglected and long abused the truth But yet 6. How prove they that it was onely the little children that might have sin seeing James sayes in many things we offend all if we all then not the little children only for they were not all the body of them 't is but a presumption without proof that he onely numbred himself with the little children without any ground for it in themselves Nay it is contrary to what James saith 7. They say or those whose sins were forgiven why then be they not blind guides to say they whom the blood of Christ cleanseth from all sin have no sin in them if those that had their sins forgiven might have sin in them they that had their sins forgiven had they not all forgiven and is not forgiveness of sin cleansing from sin and that cleansing too most properly from it which is by the blood of Christ Rom. 5. 9. And if persons that have all their sins forgiven may have sin who then may not that are here They imply the young men and fathers who had overcome the wicked one and had the word of God a biding in them but then 8. Had not the little children that had their sins forgiven them overcome the wicked one and had they not the word of God abiding in them They had the same thing in substance with the Fathers for the Fathers knew him that was from the beginning and the little children knew the Father is not the Father he that was from the beginning Were they children without the word of God abiding in them or without overcoming the wicked one David says he had hid the word of God in his heart that he might not sin against him and yet how often complains he of sin and praies to have removed from him the way of lying and implies that his eyes wandred after vanity and that his waies were not yet so directed as to keep his statutes and have respect to all Gods commandements What else means Oh that my waies were directed that I might keep thy statutes and then shall I not be ashamed when I shall have respect to all thy commandements Psal 119. 5 6. 11. 29. 36. And had not Paul overcome the wicked one when he sayes sin dwelt in him Nor James when he said in many things we offend all surely they had so that their reasonings are very aiery and without any proof from Scripture or any thing but their own authority to warrant them W. and F. To Prov. 20. 9. Who can say I have made my heart clean they say this is not against them for they themselves do not say that they have made their hearts clean it being Chrsts work to cleanse and ever to have perfected them that are sanctified and Solomon saith the just man walketh in his integrity and the righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way Rep. They are shrewdly driven to their shifts for they durst not repeate the whole Scripture we all edged because they know not how to stare in the face of it and find out an handsome glosse to elude it what could they not think of one shift to evade that clause I am pure from my sin Yea their shift for the other is like Adams fig leaves for what though it be Christs work to cleanse yet the Apostles exhort believers to cleanse themselves from all filthiness of flesh and Spirit may not a man as well collect from thence that a man may cleanse himself from all filthiness of flesh and Spirit and so make his heart clean as from other exhortations to be perfect to infer that a man may be free from all inherency of sin here Again Peter saies seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit and in such a sense who can say I have made my heart clean so as that I am pure from my sin And surely though Solomon saies the just man walketh in his integrity yet he speaks not of a just man that hath no sin or sinneth not for he saies there is none such upon earth Eccles 7. 20. Which Scripture next you shamefully elude for because it s said there is not a just man upon earth that doth good and sinneth not they sâ—y W and F. Mark for there among those that were in their changeable State nor among them that are born of God for they cannot sin Rep. Ah fie for shame where speaks he of such a the◠〈…〉 in their changeablâ— State Doth not George Whitehead en 〈…〉 and doth the word