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A40227 The papists strength, principles, and doctrines (which they are sworn to preach, from the Councel of Trent, by the Popes authority, and after confirmed by the last General Assembly at Rouen, 1571, all which they have sworn to perform) answered and confuted furthermore their principles and doctrines answered and confuted, as they were laid down in two or three severall papers, by R.W. papist, lately sent from Holland : also a challenge to the pope and all his adherents to choose out of all his dominions some cardinals, fryers, or Jesuits to try their bread and wine, after consecration (by watching on their side and on our side) to prove that if afterward they have consecrated it, whether the bread and wine doth not loose its taste and savour, and so not the body and blood of Christ : also a paper to all them that fast and afflict themselves who are in the will-worship and voluntary humility : also some quæries to all the papists upon earth to be answered in writing and sent to them, which all sects upon the earth call Quakers / by George Fox. Fox, George, 1624-1691.; Howgill, Francis, 1618-1669. 1658 (1658) Wing F1877; ESTC R3577 83,037 105

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sutable proofs for the Pope and sutable examples First the Priest-hood is ended they were never in that latitude neither are you to be measured with them neither do any true Christians As for Esau and wicked Magistrates the fruits of this amongst you has appeared and the wicked must bow before the just and Esau the elder must be a seruant to the younger and salvation is come out of Sion who judges the mount of Esau and is gathering the elect Jacob who rides over the high places of the earth which have set up your Images but you have shewed the fruits of Esau who are slaying and killing the just But who be in the power of Christ who hath all power in heaven and earth given unto him be out of Esau's and be o' th top on his mount and answers the Elect. Pr. He saith that Purgatory is a temporall punishment to faithfull persons after death who have not done due pennance for their sins in their life time so must do pennance after death Answ. The faithful persons that be in the true faith of Gods Elect which is the mistery held in a pure conscience which gives victory over the world purifies the heart by which men are justified and please God This gives them victory over death sin hell and all that which you do pennance for Now they that be reprobate concerning this faith are doing pennance all their lifetime and say they must have a Purgatory to do pennance when their life is ended and so all poor people you have a pittiful thing to passe through a fire before you be purified And as for Christs and the Apostles and Saints sufferings you are found in that nature that caused the just always to suffer and as for your Doctrine of Purgatory it is come up since the days of the Apostles amongst the Apostates the Devill has set it up who is out of the truth by his power since he set up his Synagogue but who be in the faith be over his Purgatory and synagogues and the Doctrine of it which is come up since the dayes of the Apostles for which there is no Scripture for the Saints which believed had passed from death to life and so from the Purgatory For purgatory is in the death he that passeth from it comes over Purgatory and death both to reigne with Christ here you shew your selves you are not believers Pr. The receiving of the Sacrament thou saist is not for the cleansing of you from sin but for the nourishment of your souls the body and blood of Christ being in it Answ. Why do you and the Protestants kill one another about such things seeing that you say the body and blood of Christ is in the Sacrament the bread and wine And the Protestants say in it is the spirit of Christ as you may look in a book called the Scotch Principles and in their Catechisms and is it not the same blood that cleanseth which nourishes How are you confused in this and put to your shifts I have heard talk of Papists and Jesuites were witty men but I see it is at an end and that which nourishes the immortall soule is not the mortal creatures ye are deceived in thinking so and the Protestants both that which nourishes the soul is Christ the power of God who is the Bishop of it the life the truth the power of God which is the immortall souls food and not the bread that will perish and things that will perish which those looked after that followed Christ for a time which was in the perishing minde which laboured after the perishing things and laboured not for the bread which comes downe from above which indures to eternall life which who eats of it hungers no more And so that is the Devils doctrine and the apostates which is got up since the days of the Apostles which tels people after they have consecrated the bread and wine it is the body and blood of Christ which Christ said bread would perish for his flesh saw no corruption Nor his body would not perish nor his blood that cleanseth from the dead works through which blood they overcome death and the word and power gives every creature its being without the consecration but that which nourishes the immortal soul is the mortal and man lives not by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God and this is Christs doctrine and the others is the Devils and apostates out of the life and power of Christ that saith men must live by bread alone Pr. Christ useth the Priest in the hands of a workman to make the Sacrament which is the body and bloud of Christ he saith that the formes of bread and wine which will corrupt cannot take away sin And after consecration it is not bread and wine but the very body and bloud of Christ Answ. In this you have shewed your confusion and unestablished state was it the very body and bloud of Christ that made the Corinthians drunk and in this thou hast confounded thy self in saying that the formes of bread and wine which is the very body and bloud of Christ will corrupt after consecration then the Ministers work in this thou hast spoyled who are the consecraters for the body and bloud of Christ will not corrupt nor perish which bread and wine will but that which gives bread and wine their being will never corrupt for bread and wine is a thing that is seen and though the Apostle said what he had received of the Lord that did he deliver to the Corinthians how that the same night the Lord Jesus was betrayed he took the cup and the bread when he had given thanks saying as oft as they did eate that bread and drink that cup they shewed the Lords death till he came and the Apostles delivered this to the Corinthians then in the second Epistle he brings them off from the things that are seen to the things vvhich are not seene which were eternal for bread and wine were things seen and temporal and bids them prove and examin themselves whether or no Christ was come know you not your own selves how that Jesus Christ is in you except you be reprobates and he is the living bread that came down from above who gives life unto the world and he that eates of this bread lives and abides for ever And as for thy word Sacrament we do not find that word expressed in Scripture nor where the Apostles spoke by Mary as you do who adore your own words that are Apostatized from the life them that witness Christ the substance in them they see the end of all things is come Christ Jesus him by whom all things was made who is the end of all things him is possest Such are not reprobates but reprobates and Judas may stick in the outward things as the Jewes did whose table was a trap and eyes blinded as you do who are inwardly ravened from the
and hath showed himself and hath put on strength who treads the wine press of the wrath who travels in the greatness of his strength out of whose mouth goes a sharp two-eged Sword which shall dash all to pieces Consuming fire is before him ten thousands of his Saints is vvith him and he in them they go on in his strength Conquering and to Conquer Arme your selves cast up your Batteries come all to the battel of the great day of God and see if you be able to stand against the Lord for he hath manifest his wisdome from above which will confound all your deceit For we esteem no more of your Arguments then straw nor of your devised Fables no more then rotten wood For you are all rounded as with a hoop and measured as with a line your beginning is in the Apostacy your rise in the night of darkness your strength lies in ignorance and your end will be utter darkn●sse and this shall stand true when your place shall be no more found nor one stone left upon another which shall not be thrown down And now I come to the answer of the substance of thy Arguments and Principles First thou says This is good Catholique Doctrine that a man may have the true faith and yet lead a sinfull life And further that a wicked man and a godly hath true faith and it doth not differ a whit in matter or substance in the godly and ungodly Now to say one hath faith and not the other is against all sence and reason thou saith Answ. I do believe thee that this is thy Catholique doctrine but I cannot call it good for then I should erre like thy selfe for this Doctrine is contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel for true faith is that which the just lives by Hab. 2.4 And that which the just lives by is pure the matter of it by it he is cleansed and the faith of the godly stands in the power of God and that is a pure thing And he that hath the true faith hath the faith of Christ who is truth from whence it comes and it leads out of sin and a sinfull life gives victory over sin This is the victory even your faith By faith the godly stands 2 Cor. 1.24 And by faith the godly walks 2 Cor. 5.7 But on the contrary a wicked mans faith if thou call it faith is called a feigned faith and a dead faith and is centred in him who hath the power of death which is the D●vill and this is another thing for matter and substance and is a distinct thing and by the fruits and effects the true faith is ●nown from the reprobates in the different operations and so this is a devillish doctrine thou hast laid down to wit that they are one in matter for this is contrary to Scripture sense and reason and is an unreasonable position laid downe and ●●●firmed from thy unreasonable minde which is erred from the true faith And again the faith of the godly and ungodly differs in effe●ts but not in regard of the faith it self thou saith and here is thy confusion manifest and thou saist all the five senses will teach you That a man may be chaste in his minde and yet be angry and he may be temperate and yet want patience Thou that hath no other thing to teach thee but the five S●nses art sensual and knows not the spirit For a man to be chaste and yet angry is a false thing he that is angry and intemperate is not chast but joyned to that which adulterates for these are the Devils conceptions and works they and in whom these are brought forth is not chast but is in Cains way and in Dives way and thou saist if you can conceive this that a man may have true faith and yet want godlinesse of life and conversation thy conception is false For he that is temperate and chaste and lives in that which makes him so wants not charity nor patience for the true faith of Gods elect purges from all sin and that faith is reprobate where ungodlinesse is brought forth and contrariwise thou saith a man may be of an honest and godly conversation and yet want faith utter darknesse is thy dwelling place and thou speaks out of thick darknesse Is there a conversation godly or like God lived in where there is no faith or honesty where there is no faith that 's utterly false for these are the fruits of faith of a lively faith for honesty and a godly conversation is the works which proceeds from a true and living faith as the Scriptures witnesse and these things thou saith thou thought good to commend to consideration Thou that thought these things good cals evill good and good evill and art in blindnesse and I have considered of the things and I never heard of so much blindnesse uttered by one who would seem to be a teacher of others And now I come to that which follows 2 P●●n That the people or Church of Christ hath been alwayes visible not only in the beginning or in the Apostles dayes But also since the Apostles dayes even untill now and shall be to the end of the world And for this thou saist Christ hath promised that the gates 〈…〉 shall not prevail against it but that he will be with them till 〈◊〉 end of the world and for this end thou saist the Apostle said Ephes. 4. That he hath given some to be Apostles some Evangelists for the worke of the Ministry till we all come to the unity of faith and unto the stature and fulnesse of Christ Answ. The Church of God in the beginning in the Prophets dayes Christs dayes the Apostles dayes and since the Apostles hath always been in God and hath always been invisible as to the eye of the world which could never discern them nor wherein their communion stood with God yet notwithstanding there hath always been men and people who feared God and believed in the invisible God whom the world never knew to be such but always did persecute and they that did persecute have named themselves to be the Church of God Yet notwithstanding all this there hath been in all ages some that hath born a visible testimony against the world that lyes in wickedness and against the false Prophets Seducers Deceivers and Antichrists and these that bore their testimony against all these before mentioned they were in the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ and declared against their Idolatry in all ages and these Christ promised that the gates of hell should not prevail against them And although the gates of Hell did not prevail against their bodies or outward man yet never prevailed against the rock Christ upon which they were builded but hath always been with them in the deepest suffering and greatest ffli●ction and hath preserved them faithfull unto death so that they have not denyed his testimony nor the word of his patience for they have not loved their
such which Peter speakes of to be in Corahs Cains Balaams way so your fruits declares and thus you are contrary to Christ and the Apostles and true Church separated from them and such as the Apostle declares against hath made up your Church Have not you been the first birth of the Devil since the dayes of the Apostles Murderers and killers about formes and traditions and Images and outward Churches and Ministers made by mens wills is not Cains fruits the vagabond from God appeared among you murderers destroyers Did the Apostles kill slay and burn had they their Inquisitions like you and do not you all wear Cains mark and Balaams mark on your foreheads and the Devils colours the murderer that is out of Truth has not his flagge been hung out among you All that denies your Religion and worshipping your Images Crosses and all your Ministers made by the will of men and Temples made with mens hands its death by fire Inquisition or Wracks and the devil is he that destroyes the creatures but the power of God destroyes him lets up the soul and brings the creature into liberty Christ saith My body I will give for the life of the World And Christ saith He is from above and he is not earthly The first man is of the earth earthly So after you have consecrated your bread and wine if you will come to an open tryall and proof that may openly bee proved and seen whether or no your bread and wine is not below after consecration and will waste and consume which Christ his flesh sees no corruption his body is the Church and is bread and wine after you have consecrated it the Church or do you call your selves the Church at Rome or do you call your selves the body of Christ do you call the very bread and wine the very body and blood of Christ after you have consecrated i● and so the very Church and then where are you the Church and have you not set bread and wine over you and you s●y Christs body was humane that 's the first Adam earthly the second is the Lord from heaven and after you have consecrated Bread and Wine if it be humane that signifies earthly that shews the creatures as they were before your consecration and so not the body of Christ and as oft as you do eat this bread and drink this cup y● do shew forth the Lords death till he come That signifies that he and his body was not present for where his body is there needs no representation for it was in the night in which he was betrayed that he gave them the cup for remembrance and do you take it in the night and follow the practise of Christ and his Disciples which is in remembrance of him which is the cup of the New Testament in his blood This do as oft as ye do it in remembrance of me This was in the night Now the Apostle bid the Corinthians that the end of the world was come to examine themselves and prove their own selves that they might know their own selves how that Jesus Christ was in them except they were reprobates and if Christ was in them what need they to have bread and wine to put them in Remembrance of him Friend 1 WHo was the first Author or setter forth of all your Pictures your Crosses your Crucifixes your Images and what was their names seeing that the Apostles and Teachers and Ministers did not set forth such things in the Church but witnessed against Idols and that they might keep themselves from Idols and that they were not to look at things that were seen as in the Epistles of John and to the Corinthians And are not images pictures crucifixes crosses things that be seen And the things that are seen are temporall but the things that are not seen are eternall and is not it which set up these things that which denyed the power of God 2 How is it that you set up Tythes seeing that the Apostle witnessed against the Priest-hood that took tythes and said the Law was changed and the commandement disannulled that gave them And though Abraham gave tythes to Melchisedeck the similitude the son of God is come the end of the similitude and likenesse and who was the first beginner of them amongst you 3 Who was the first Author that gave ye the commands for the observing of dayes holy dayes Saints dayes seeing the Apopostle and the Saints which were in the true Church brought the Saints off days yea the days which God had commanded to Christ the substance and said there was not any name under heaven by which a man should be saved but his name and what they were to do they were to do in the name of Christ And when they cryed Paul Apollo or Cephas he rebuked them are not all you come under rebuke now that are crying up names days meats drinks which the Kingdom of Heaven stands not in and so has lost the power and the substance 4 Where did Christ or the Apostles command in the Scripture or the Church practiced that such things forementioned should be done or come after them shew me by Scripture Now if you say that Solomon had a Temple and there were images and an Ark and an Altar those were but figures they were not the substance and when the substance came they ceased Now what does all your dayes crosses crucifixes tythes type forth and who commanded them shew by Scripture where ever Christ or the Apostles commanded any such thing as a Crucifix as a Crosse as Tythes as a Temple as an Altar outward or to pray by Beads shew by the Scriptures where ever the true Apostles true Church or Christians practised any such things or that any such things were amongst them or said that any such things should come after them answer me by plain Scriptures 5 May not a man give all his goods away to the poor and his body to be burned and what will that profit him if he have not love yea love to enemies And how can you love them when you bring them to your Inquisitions or burn or imprison them kill or banish them Now mark are not you of that sect that the Apostle speaks of that may give all your goods away to the poor and your bodies to be burned and yet nothing not having love And what differs your love from that love that may give your goods away and bodies to be burned and yet not have true love And do not you think that you gain by that now and do inherit some righteousness for it and is not that all out of the true righteousnesse which is out of the true love Now the love of God and Christ which was in the Apostles was to love enemies Now if you love your sect and them that be of your worship and observes your customes and burn and prison and kill others that be not of your sect and judgement and observes your customes