dost thou rather believe all those things to be only Allegorically spoken 4. And if thou dost believe that that Jesus the very Christ was indeed a real personal man whether dost thou believe that he really and verily and in a real and very body of flesh dyed and rose in the same real and very body the third day from the dead and therein after 40 daies conversing by times with his disciples ascended or was taken up into heaven and be those things also only figuratively to be taken 5. And whether dost thou believe that the sufferings or dyings of that man in any such real body of flesh and his rising again in the same body and ascending is truly availeable to the taking away or procuring pardon for any mans sin and obtaining blessing and salvation for men or dost thou thy self believe to be saved from thy sin and from destruction by vertue thereof yea or nay 6. Whether dost thou indeed believe that there are any Angels or created spirits distinct from men and what is in men and in other visible creatures yea or nay 7. And if neither the bodies of men that die and go to the grave shall ever be raised out of their graves to a sensible life again nor as Geo. Whitehead implies in some questions sent us the souls of the wicked after death shall come out of Hell again to receive any further judgement Whatof the wicked shall be raised up again after their bodily death and judged to eternal punishment as John 5.29 Mat. 25.46 Is it any thing or nothing and if any thing What is it 8. Doth the soul of the wicked at or after the bodily death go to any hell in which they sustain or feel any torment and if so what is the hell they go to and are tormented in I challenge thee to return me if thon darest a plain and direct answer to these queries according to the very truth and belief of thy heart not giving revilings instead of answers but observing 1 Pet. 3.15 John Horne This was sent him April 19. to which I have as yet received no answer from him this fourteenth of May so that I hope his mouth is stopt with them However for any plain positive and sober answer John Horne Richard Hubberthornes Letter in answer to my Queries is thus London 6th day 4th Mon. 1660. John Horne I Have received a paper of Queries from thee by which it is easily known to be thine by thy preface of lies which is thy usual and accustomed manner and marke of the beast in all thy papers thou saiest I am guilty of seven or eight falshoods but dost not mention any of them neither dost answer my paper which proves to the contrary So thou being so often reproved and yet hardens thy heart against it so if thou wilt be filthy thou maist be filthy still and if thou wilt be unconvinced when the truth hath been so plainly and often declared unto thee thou mayst be wicked still Answ As unto thy first query I can clear my self from being a deceiver or false Teacher in all things which I have spoken and can also prove thee to be a false accuser in saying that I said published that Christs coming in the flesh was but a figure which thing I never said nor published and so thy query is grounded upon a lye But those that did say and publish that falshood of me was thy brethren the hirelings and deceivers at Newcastle upon Tyne and so thou takes their lies to be a strength unto thy own And as for the believing Samaritans they did know by the spirit of truth that Jesus of Nazareth as then come in the flesh was indeed the Saviour of the world and Paul was a true Apostle when he proved that Jesus was the very Christ as Acts 9.22 And that which Christ himselfe said in the first of John 4. and 2. was true but what is all that unto thee to ground thy lye upon as above mentioned Answ As for thy second query calling George Whitehead a silly deceiver for justifying of my saying in his answer to Cambridge queries What G. Whitehead said in that answer to Cambridge Queries was truth and was a question put forth unto them which neither they nor thou hast answered which Query was this Could Christ have been said to have been transfigured if his coming in the flesh had not been a figure or example till his glory was revealed hast thou not read that he was the expresse figure of his Fathers substance instead of which it is translated he is the expresse image c. And if thou wilt prove him a deceiver first deny what he hath said or that it is so written which if thou do affirme thou goest but about to turne the truth of God into a lye and if thou do confesse thou ownes what G. Whitehead hath said and so not prove him a deceiver and as for thy reason to contradict it which is that the Apostles and believers were but forms of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.2 In this thou hast appeared very ignorant void of reason and true comparison for the Apostles and believers were neither in the power nor form of godly men before the renewing of their minds but were children of wrath and were in the form and power of wicked men Answ Againe Thy third Query is grounded upon the same lye with the first if Christs coming in the flesh be but a figure which was never spoken by me nor any of us but if we should say that Christ was an example or was the expresse figure of the Fathers substance yet thereby we do not say that Christs coming in the flesh is but a figure And as for my belief of Jesus he was real man and had a real body prepared for him and in it both soul and spirit power and life which was immortal and Eternal in which body was real flesh and blood and was born of the Virgine according to the Scripture Answ As to the fourth Query that which thou queriest of me thou dost not believe thy selfe that Christ in that very body of flesh and blood and bone in which he suffered did arise again but thou saist with flesh and bone without blood he is in heaven so then not with that real and very body born of the Virgine which thou saist is real flesh and blood and so according to thy own writings not the same But we do believe that in the very same real body in which he after his resurrection did converse with his Disciples is ascended into heaven Answ To thy fifth Query I say That the suffering and dying of that man Jesus and his ascending into heaven is truly available unto those which do receive him by which their sins are taken away and they saved from destruction but those that do not receive him but reject him his light and spirit his suffering dying and rising
again and ascending is not available to the taking away or procuring pardon for their sins for by their rejection of him to teach and lead them into all truth they make his blood and all his works unto them as of none effect To thy sixth Query wherein thou asks whether I do believe there are any Angels or created spirits distinct from men and from what is in man and other visible creatures Answ Whether wouldest thou have any to believe above what is written or where dost thou read that there is any created Angels or created spirits distinct from God which is in man and from all other visible creatures if thou canst shew me any such Angel or created spirit which is distinct both from him which did create it and from all other things created then thou shewest some ground for such a faith but the Scripture is not a rule for any such faith neither doth it speak any such thing and herein thou wouldest appear wise or manifest thy self a fool above what is written and not as one that would be instructed though thou be ignorant Answ To the seventh Query That which shall rise again after death out of the graves is the Seeds and each Seed with its own body for there are two seeds and two bodies which shall arise the one into Everlasting life the other into condemnation Answ To the eighth Query The Souls of the wicked at death go to a Hell where torment is felt which is the eternal wrath of God the just recompence of reward to all hypocrites hirelings and deceivers who have not only refused to receive the truth in the love of it but have also set themselves in enmity against it and this shalt thou also know hereafter better than thou dost now and here is an answer returned unto thee without railing according to 1 Pet. 3.15 Richard Hubberthorne The Reply to Richard Hubberthornes Answer THough there is no end of controversing with evil spirits nor the answers sent by R. Hubberthorne need no Reply the very comparing them with the questions they relate to being a sufficient discovery of Richards erroneousnesse in them to those that are intelligent yet for the sakes of some weaker ones and to stop the mouths of the deceived I shall note his falshoods and deceits therein 1. His falshoods as 1. It 's false That I had in my paper a Preface of lies My Preface was thus Richard Hubberthorne I once received a letter from thee and I gave thee an answer to it in which I noted thee guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods thou didst return me an answer to it but didst neither therein confesse thy evils nor disprove them so that I might slight thee as a proved lyer In that answer I remember I took notice of some corrupt passages about the Resurrection of Christ by which I am satisfied in part that thou art out of the truth yet because thou shouldest not think nor thy party vapor as one of them yester night began to suggest that I am afraid to answer thee 〈◊〉 Thou having not multiplyed thy questions to very many I shall be willing for this once to returne thee an answer to them provided that thou wilt plainly and nakedly answer me in the like number propounded by me to thee and when thou sendest thy answers to them to me thou shalt God willing have mine to thine returned by me this was what he calls my preface of the truth of which in every particular I call God to witnesse between us 2. It 's false that it 's my usual and accustomed manner and the marke of the beast in all my papers to make prefaces of lies a thing said of him without proof 3. It 's false that I said he is guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods for my words were not so but that in his former letter which was some years since sent me I noted him guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods that he is guilty now of them and repented none of them since I affirmed not 4. It 's false that his paper proves to the contrary for neither is his paper in being and so now proves nothing nor did it when in being take notice of those falshoods that I charg'd him with so as to disprove them 5. It 's false that I brought as a reason to contradict G. Whitehead's indeavoured proof that the Apostles and believers were but forms of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.2 for that was not my reason nor my assertion but by saying was my way of question Might it not as well by the same reason be avouched that the Apostles were but formes of men or of Godly men because transformed into the renewing of their minds 6. It 's false that in that saying of mine I appeared very ignorant void of reason true comparison for I appeal to all intelligent men whether the word transformed applyed to the believers signifies not every jot as much that they were before or then also but forms as that the word transfigured applyed to Christ proves that he was or his coming in the flesh a figure or but a figure Besides that he left out part of my saying for I said forms of men or of godly men 7. False it is too that the Apostles or believers before that transforming of them in the renewing of their minds mentioned and exhorted to were neither in the forme nor power of godly men but were children of wrath and in the power and form of wicked men for when the Romans were exhorted to be transformed in the renewing of their minds which as it was a thing but exhorted to they had not as then for exhortations respect things things yet to be done when such exhortations are given they those Romans were believers and Saints and in part renewed as appears in Rom. 1.7 8 12. 8. It 's a grosse falshood that he saies in his answer to Qu. 4. that I do nor believe myself what I query therein of him and as 9. False too that he charges me with querying whether Christ in that very body of flesh blood and bone in which he suffered did arise again My words were not so but whether in a real and very body of flesh he dyed and rose in the same real and very body the third day 10. False it is again that he saies I say with flesh and bone without blood he is in heaven for I have no such saying nor have so determined of it 11. False it is too that he in his next words implies that if he be not in heaven with flesh blood and bones then not with that real and very body born of the Virgine for he was laid into the Sepulchre in that very body born of the Virgin and not with another when as yet his blood was before shed out of that body the body and blood are spoken of as distinct things and his body was his body and the same body in which the
figure and why is it translated image instead of figure if the word there used is none of those words elsewhere in the Scriptures translated by the word figure besides that he corrupts the text and saies the figure of his substance instead of the image of his person but what if it had been read the expresse figure of his Fathers substance doth that prove his coming was a figure too so then to prove him a Deceiver I have denyed and do deny what he saies to be true if in his question he imply affirmatively either that those words be so read or that they prove Richards saying that he defends the falsenesse of what he adds to what he calls my reason is before spoken to 2. His answer to my third question prevaricates for Rich. Hubberthorne by G. Whiteheads pleading for his saying said more than he supposes that Christ was an example or the expresse figure of the Fathers substance but what is it all one to be an example and the expresse figure of the Fathers substance that they are put so together as if they amounted to the same thing are all examples then in the Scripture the expresse figure of the Fathers substance but besides that he in answering leaves out and durst not touch the tearms of my question as that Jesus was a real man consisting of a real humane body and Soul and that he was really conceived and born in the natural womb of a corporal Virgin in such fence a Virgin as other Virgins be c. he durst not speak so distinctly but hides himself in such general tearmes as might keep him from being so easily seen 3. He gives the go by to the fourth question too and plaies the prevaricator in the last clauses of it as is before sufficiently noted 4. He hides himself in his answer to the 5th and leaves out the latter part of it for in the former part the word◠by which their sins are taken away those words by which are equivocal and are so subtilly placed as he may mean that by their receiving him their sins are taken away and not by the suffering and dying of the man Jesus c. 5. In his answer to the sixth he plainly enough casts mists before his readers eyes to dazle him that he might not discerne that he believes no Angles or created spirits distinct from God and the spirits of men and that are in other visible creatures and yet his intimate joyning with the Sadduces in denying them appears clearly enough to those whose eyes can see through his mists for he implyes it 's to believe above what is written to believe that there are Angels or created spirits distinct from men and what is in man and in other visible creatures and by his question where I read that there is any created Angels or created spirits distinct from God which is in man and from all other visible creatures what doth he but imply his unbelief or denyal of any such thing To answer briefly to the question I say that though I do not read in just so many words put together that saying yet I find it clearly in the Scriptures in every part of it as to say 1. That there are Angels and Spirits I read in Heb. 1.7.14 that they are created is also both there implyed and in Ephe. 3.9 where it is said that God created all things by Jesus Christ and in Col. 1.16 all things were created by him that are in heaven and that are in earth whether visible and invisible c. so then there being such things as Angels and spirits those Angels things in heaven Mark 13.32 Angels in heaven and all things in heaven and earth being created of God by Christ it necessarily followes that they be creatures and created also 3. That they are distinct from God whether as in man or in heaven as more usually he is said to be is as evident if we first shew what it is to be distinct now that is distinct from another thing that is not that thing as the Soul is distinct from the body because it is not the body and the body is distinct from the Soul because it is not the Soul and the eye is distinct from the sight because the eye may be without sight and the servant is distinct from the master because he is not the master so the Angels are distinct from God and Christ because they are not God nor Christ but created by God and Christ and made ministring spirits and sent forth from God to such purpose and that they are distinct from all other visible creatures is evident because they are not any of the other creatures visible or invisible but are a distinct kind of creature themselves distinctly named from them and that have distinctly some of them appeared when made visible to the sight of men without the bodys and beings of all other creatures as in those that ministred to Christ and that appeared to Daniel to Peter to Paul to Cornelius and divers others which were neither properly men nor women nor any other creature distinct from Angels or ministring spirits c. So that that question implies great ignorance and unbelief of the Scriptures as also his adding that if I can shew him any such Angel or created spirit that is distinct both from him which did create it and from all other things created then I show some ground for such a faith this with his changing my words which were distinct from men from what is in man in other visible creatures into another form viz. distinct from him that made them and from all other creatures implies that he thinks there is no creature but what is visible or may be seen sure his other senses may confute such a fancy for did he ever see any mans Soul or see the wind that blows and yet I trow these be creatures but why will he not believe more then I can shew him Angels be of themselves invisible pitch their tents about men who yet see them not as Ps 34.7 with 2 Kin. 6.16 17. but I have shewed him in the Scripture if he have any eyes of understanding to see with that there was and truly is an Angel Gabriel sent of God and not God himself who is distinct from all other men Angels and creatures besides him they none of them being him yea many thousand such shal Christ appear with at his coming as in Mat. 16.27 2 Thes 1.7 so that his falshood and impiety appears in what followes in the answer as that the Scriptures is not a rule for any such faith nor doth speak any such thing 6. And his Answer to the 7th Query joyned with his former answer proves him a direct Sadducee to them that can understand him for as his answer to the 6th denies intimately and yet plainly enough that there be many such Angels and Spirits as the Scripture declares so his answer to the 7th denies the resurrection of the body as will appear if he will clearly speak out his minde in explication of his said answer for to that query what it is of men that shall rise again after the bodily death he answers That which shall rise againe after death out of the grave is the seeds and each seed with its own body for there are two seeds and two bodies which shall arise the one into everlasting life and the other into condemnation which though it be the most positive answer of any he gives freest from reviling language yet cannot be understood unlesse it be known what be those two seeds whether they be not the wheat and the Tares spoken of Mat. 13.37 38 or what else they be and who sowes or sowed them and when and where they be sown and what be the graves they be in and whether they be but two seeds in all the world over or two in every man one the incorruptible seed the other the corruptible seed and whether they be sown or raised after the bodily death of men or only after some spiritual death of the feeds for I named after the bodily death and he leaves out the word bodily and so speaks equivocally and whether be each of these seeds a man seeing the Apostle saies not every seed but every man shall rise in his own order and whether did the Apostle forget one of those seeds when he saies it is sown in weaknesse it is raised in power when of two he should have said they are sown in weaknesse they are raised in power and whether is either of these seeds when it s sown a natural body and either of them when they rise a spiritual body seeing the Apostle saies it is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body and what be the two bodies they shall rise with are they two in every man or be they humane bodies or bodies of men and why saies he the one into everlasting life the other into condemnation and why not unto everlasting life and unto condemnation and why is not the condemnation said to be everlasting by him as well as the life Those things I challenge him for explaining his answer before it can be seen to agree with the Apostles Doctrine of the Resurrection 7. For the eighth query he in his answer leaves out the word Bodily again and so tels us not of any hell men go into or their souls after the death of their bodies but prevaricates and hides himself again nor proves that eternal wrath shall give up any that shall be in it as it 's said hell and Death shall 〈◊〉 20.13 But if Hell be the reward of all Lyers Deceivers Hirelings and Hypocrites what will become of Richard Hubberthorne who hath told so many falshoods and delt so deceitfully and hypocritically in those his answers if he repent not let the Reader judge John Horne FINIS
would have people believe me in are in part that very words of the Prophets and holy men of God and so if I drove at that to make people believe those things I drove but at the making them believe the truth of the Scriptures in those sayings and by consequence George indeavoured to drive them from believing them For that there is not a just man upon earth that doth good and sinneth not and no man that sins not is not mine but Solomons by the spirit of truth I trow Eccles 7.20 1 Kings 8.46 and that no man is perfectly freed from sin in all respects in this life is evident both in Psal 143.2 and in that sicknesses diseases and mortality that came in by sin abides upon all men till death yea and the bodily death that came in by sin abides upon all till the resurrection and so long as any fruit of sin abides upon a man he is not perfectly in all respects freed from sin And to say as he doth that the asserting these things is the making way for my Fathers Kingdome which is upheld by sin as much as I could is evident blasphemy For God being my Father at least by creation as he after though erroniously saies the Disciples were taught so to call him their Father his kingdome is not upheld by sin and if he calls him the Devil he blasphemes or if he judge the Devil to be my Father as no doubt his charity leads him yet then he blasphemes the spirit of truth which breathed in the holy men of God while he makes the asserting their sayings a warring for the Devils kingdome that they be their sayings the places above quoted with Rom. 7.17 20 21 22 23. Jam. 3.2 1 John 1.8 10. and 2.1 2. make it evident See Reader how this man discovers his shame and falsehood in al his oppositions his intimations that we denyed him liberty to speak in evidence of his pretended truths is so false that the contrary namely that when he would have been reading and at other times he was called upon again and again to answer he would not for some time yea and sometime he had liberty or took it to talke so much that I could not have liberty to reply upon him and the calling out of the company to him to answer or else own himself proved a deceiver and perhaps sometimes laughing at his folly is that he calls the incivility towards him and clamoring of many at once against him And where he saies that many hearing him with sobernesse was as appeares a grief to me and probably some cause of my publishing of an imperfect relation of the discourse in print to render him and what he calls the truth odious and in my pride to make people believe I had got the victory I avouch in the presence of God that the people hearing him with sobernesse was no grief at all to me or any thing that I see as making against me in the people and if it appears so to him it 's because his eye sees by a false light and the spirit of truth guids him not therein I was very much rejoiced in the Lord to see his helpfulnesse afforded me and Geo. Whit. so made manifest to the people and the people so satisfied for which cause also I published as perfect a relation of the discourse of these points spoken to as possible I could and could I possibly have come by every word or fillable of it I was not afraid nor ashamed to make it publick knowing right well the more perfectly it had been published the more perfectly his folly had been made manifest So that if what I have published in print render him odious it is because his folly and deceit in the dispute was such as deserved it As for what he saies he shall make good against me in the strength of God it will appear to be but a deceived vapour in him by what I shall through Gods assistance say here to his two latter charges which he saies his Treatise makes good namely That my Ministry in which he falsly saies I contend for sin just as the Apostle John did in 1 Joh. 1.8 10. with 2.1 is Anti-Christian and both against the commands promise and works of God and leads to the making both the preaching and praying of Christ and the Saints ineffectual and that 2. I like a chollerick envious man against the truth of God and his people am a forger of lies a false accuser and slanderer and so one of the Dragons army c. By this making good or not making thou maist judge Reader whether the strength of God be with him to make good his former against me by dispute which he could challenge me to in publick either in market place Steeple-house or their meeting house in Lin namely 1. That I am out of the steps of the true Ministers and am in the practice of deceivers an hypocrite and no Minister of Christ and being a parish Priest am guilty of the Priests iniquity in many things against which I have declared And 2. That I uphold a dead formal worship like the world whereunto people are not called by the spirit of truth which is not the true worship and keep people from the life of God and my Ministry formal and corrupt Which his foolish challenge I shall not accept both because his folly and falshood in his boasts of strength to that may be sufficiently discovered in his failers of what he boasts he hath done in his Treatise as also because he therein laies a trap for me to get occation to reproach me for he knowes I sent him word that I should henceforth have no more to do with him but according to the Apostles counsel reject them now should I accept his challenge he and his party would reproach me as they did upon a lesse coloured occasion as a lyer and false Besides these being personal charges and the overflowings of their anger against me because foiled at the dispute and such things as these spoken so much as we thought needful in answer to his former book in which he spits such venemous stuff against me I shall not go about to plead my own cause but leave it to God and rather take good Hezekiahs course when Sennacherib railed upon him that would not have him answered again That he is far from making good his charges in the two other points of it spoken to as he saies in his treatise these things that follow in answer hereunto I hope will fully evince To my proofes for the Scriptures which he only sets down the quotations without saying any thing to them particularly that the Prophets Apostles and holy men of God even after they were Prophets Apostles and holy men came confessing themselves sinners and to have sin He saies I have not made it appear that the Quakers do not so for they own their confessing sin and they have confessed their sins to the Lord as
he acknowledges even he among others that they had sins and iniquities but they being kept from serving and living in them God dealt not with them after them but after the righteousnes and cleannesse found according to the spirit or inward man even as Paul when he had said he served with his mind the Law of God but with his flesh the law of sin yet adds there is therefore no condemnation to them that walke not after the flesh but after the spirit God therein deals with them according to their cleannesse in Christ and in their walking after the spirit and not after their sin in their members so that quotation also clearly failes him It is true too that God promises that his people shall be all righteous and clean from all their filthinesse yea and they are righteous in Christ and his blood actually and continually cleanseth them but that proves not that the Saints and Prophets ever boasted themselves to be without sin But even they that said the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin say too imediately after if we say we have no sin we deceive our selves nay seeing Gods afflicting his people is to purge away their sin as Isa 27.8 9. and the temptations he tries them with are to try and purifie their faith from the mixtures therein both of them being as baptizings with water and fire to those ends it appeares that so long as they are subject to afflictions and tryals which is so long as they live death it self being one way of afflicting and trying they have drosse and uncleannesse to be purged from and God is performing his promises to them therein that they may be all perfectly righteous even in themselves in the new heaven and earth and new Jerusalem where shall be no unclean thing and where shall be the full accomplishment of Gods righteousnesse upon them to which also Isa 60. alludes As for those that John saw Rev. 14. that were without fault before the Throne of God and that could sing to the Lord a new song I say all that heartily believe in Christ and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel it is Christs office to present them holy unblameable and without reproof in Gods sight Col. 1.22.23 not because they are sinless in themselves but because they are in him who is their perfect righteousnesse nor is that the new song they sing that in us is no fault or blame but while they accuse themselves and confesse their sins he is just and faithful and forgives them and so presents them in himself without blame before God and their song is praises or salvation to the Lord as in Psal 40.23 David sung that new song and yet complained of innumerable sins and evils compassing him about in himself See else Psal 40.11 12 13. So that still here appears in George nothing but ignorant mistakes or the spirit of deceit He adds that that song cannot be sung by those that are in their iniquities and pleading for sins being enemies to the state of the new creature But he herein grosly prevaricates and deceives his Reader confounding mens having sin in them and confessing their sins with men being in sin and pleading for it between which is a vast difference Paul was not in his sin but in Christ nor did he plead for sin but strive against it and deny it when he said sin was in him and bewailed that he did what he would not We say not then that the true Apostles and Prophets were in sin and pleaded for it but had sin in them and bewailed their sins nor do we in so saying plead for sin no more than they did Therefore George herein bewrayes his great ignorance and mistake and his conclusion is meer vanity and deceit viz. That they have a cloud of witnesses and many evidences for their testimonie that it is of God and that what they hold is truth and that all that own God must own them herein Which is all false as by what is said may be seen I sayd that when John said 1 Ioh. 4.17 As he is so are we in this world he could not mean it we are without sin because that 's contrary to his own expressions 1 Ioh. 1.8 This G. W. railes on me for and adds That John who knew the state in which they had sin and in which if they said they had no sin they deceived themselves c. did not say they should have sin so long as in the world for he saith little children let no man deceive you he that doth righteousnesse is righteous as he is righteous 1 John 3.6 7. Plainly implying that they are deceivers that say men cannot be without sin while they are in the World c. Mind Reader the wildness of his answers how he leaves my saying undisproved do what he can for what if Iohn did not say in expresse words that they should have sin so long as they were in this world Seeing that Scripture speaks of what they were at present as he is so we are in this world it's enough to proove that what Iohn said there of their present state may not be interpreted as the Quakers do that they were then without sin seeing it crosses what he said before of their present estate in that respect And what though he that doth righteousnes is righteous even as he is righteous that proves not that he that doth righteousnesse hath no sin in him for he that confesses his sins doth righteousnesse therein otherwise how is it righteousnesse and faithfulnesse in God to forgive him 1 Iohn 1.9 So then he that in such a sense as in that 1 Iohn 1.9 confesseth his sins is righteous as Christ is righteous for Christ is his righteousnesse and yet he that confesseth his sin is not without sin in himselfe for then he should confesse a falsehood And what though as he adds that in 1 Iohn 4.17 have relation to their dwelling in God and God in them that 's but George's affirmation do not they that walke in the light as he is in the light dwell in God and God in them and yet have sins that the blood of Christ cleanseth them from and if they sayd they have no sin they deceive themselves 1 Iohn 1.7 8. I say the true Apostles Prophets used not to glory in their perfection and finlesnesse He answers Then they used not to glory in Christ and who is it that will believe this deceit for Christ was their righteousnesse and persection See Reader what a deceitful man is this that leaves out the word sinlesnesse which I added on purpose to shew what perfection I meant of and then to ask if the Apostles gloried not in a perfection which he was sure I meant not of for though Christ be by the gift of God their perfection yet he is not their personal sinlesnesse or selfe perfection that I spake of these men are good at little but at crafty
Apostle condescended to the Romans to several states which be passed through and which was below his own when he writ to them Which is not to the purpose For when he writes to the Romans of the states he had passed through he writes of them as things past not as present as Rom. 5.10 When we were enemies he reconsiled us he saies not we are yet enemies so Chap. 7.9 I was alive without the Law but when the Law came sin revived and I dyed and so in 1 Tim. 1.13 Who was before a blasphemer and a Persecutor and injurious we never find him when he was an Apostle to say I am a blasphemer c. But of sin being in him he writes in the present time I know that in me that is in my flesh there dwells no good thing and I am carnal sold under sin not I sell my self to sin as Ahab but am sold as by an other with reference to what was done to him in Adam and yet remained upon him as to the flesh and that he spake of himself too and not of others excluding himself is evident ver 25. So then I my selfe marke he saies I my self with my mind serve he saies not did serve the Law of God but with my flesh the Law of sin Should we say we our selves do what we only mean others do he and his fellowes would call us lyers and yet he fears not to fasten such an imputation in effect upon the Apostles one after another He would confirme his former saying from Rom. 6.19 which is to as little purpose as if he had quoted Gen. 1.1 For the Apostle there speaks nothing of himself or of any state that he saies he was then in as mentioning his own person but speaking of spiritual things under earthly metaphors as of Masters and Servants and freedom from servitude He saies I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmitie of your flesh But is this the manner of men to speak untruths of them selves as to say they are in that state they are not to make their speech more understandable or doth the Apostle speak any thing sounding to that sense there He saies not there I yeeld my members servants to uncleannesse but as ye have in time past yielded your members servants to uncleannesse c. so yeeld your members now servants of righteousnesse Was it not as understandable for the Apostle to have said I did sometime find a Law in my members but now I have got rid of it and there is no sin in me as if it had been so as to say I do see a law in my members yea might not this more encourage them to sin than that if it be as G. W. often casts upon us a pleading for sin to confess that sin is in the Saints It clearly appears in all this still that G.W. is much out of the way and the truth is neither in nor with him for where it could distinguish between Paul as after the flesh and as after the spirit in the same time in his flesh in bondage and in his mind free and waiting for the deliverance of his body too in due time both from sins and sufferings But how can he distinguish such things that could not distinguish things nearer hand But whereas I said I was able in the strength of God to worry such Foxes as he that is to bassle and confound them as I also actually was helpt to do yet because I say after that people see I was weary and spent he vapors as if I was not therefore in the strength of God forgeting that of the Apostle that at the same time in different respects a man may be strong and weak both when I am weak then am I strong and I was among you in weakenesse yet my speech was in the demonstration of the spirit and power 1 Cor 2.3 4. Surely when I said I was able to worry him in the strength of the Lord I did not say or signifie nor could any of the people I suppose so apprehend me that I was able to beat him at handicuffs or had stronger Lungs then he but that I was able by the power of the truth to make manifest his deceits which also God gave me bodyly strength to do so as to the satisfaction of the indifferent auditory and had I needed more to that I question not but he would have given it me He that cannot distinguish spiritual strength from bodily how should he distinguish between Pauls state after the spirit and his state at the same time after the flesh As a man in the flesh warring yet against sin and wishing for deliverance for that 's the force of that phrase who will deliver as Deut. 5.29 according to the Hebrew who will give them an heart to fear me argues not that the Lord was ignorant or doubted who would but an earnest desire that they had such an heart but in the same time he thanked God by Jesus Christ Rom. 7.24 25. and so Paul was free in his spirit and more than a conqueror in all his sufferings though Christ who dwelt in his heart by faith though I never read what G. W. intimates that Christ was in Pauls flesh though therein and therethrough he might manifest his power and vertues but us to his body that was not above prison and weaknesse and death even so neither was his flesh free from sin being in it though his spirit was set free and above it Paul saith he made himselfe a servant to all that he might gain the more and became a Jew to the Jew and weak to the weak True in his use of indifferent things such as meats drinks wages c. But he became not a Jew to the Jew in not believing or confessing Jesus to be the Christ and though to those that being weak in the Faith doubted of their liberty to some such outward things as before mentioned he also abstained from the use of his freedome to them not telling them of his liberty lest he should offend them but in those things having his faith to himselfe as if he also was weake as he advises others Rom. 14.22 1 Cor. 10.28 29. Yet it 's evident that was not the case here For to what purpose should he pretend in some places to be in such states in other places of the same Epistle to the same people express himself to be far above such states as G.W. saies he did in saying he was at peace with God c. So that these appear as indeed they are silly shifts of G. W. to hide the nakednesse of his assertion and corruption of his judgement but they will not do it As for his personal accusations of us as uncivil and bawling and wrangling and desiring to tie him up to Yea and Nay they are vain and false accusations and so I shall passe them As also his after insinuations of rantings and loves amongst us and of a woman
set up for a Teacher by us when of any woman set up to teach by us I know none who turned Ranters is known so be some of their lusts c. as also his charging me as speaking of G. Rose as a distracted man and yet bringing his words against them when as I said but that the people heard him begin at a distance like a kind of distracted man to call out not that I counted him a distracted man these personal and untrue reflections I say I passe as impertinencies And as for his saying We would not suffer him to read in our Book and yet we read out of theirs and his vain and false insinuations therefrom the ridiculousnesse thereof is sufficiently cleared in the relation of our discourse though he take no more notice of it than if no such thing had been mentioned His asking questions when he should have answered were meer diviations from our businesse and yet I know of none that I answered not then except that what death came in by sin which he sought in subtilty as I conceived to put me upon that he might wind out from the thing that puzled him As for his feeling the power of God over us He might feel it over us indeed to protect us and inable us to baffle him for which we blesse the Lord but otherwise it appeared not with him in his answers nor yet appeareth with him in what he hath written in his own vindication He saies The Apostles wept with them that wept and waite for the Redemption of the body where it was not redeemed as he travelled for the Gallatians c. Which are nothing to the purpose for a man may weep with those that weep without saying falsly that he is exercised with the same trials in himselfe and of his own as others weep under Cannot I weep with such as weep for the absence of Gods spirit from them or for the losse of some neer relation unlesse I say I am in the same condition with them Nay if I say it s so with me as with them then do I not shew such charity to them for then it may rather be judged that I weep for my own afflictions than with them for theirs one saying of the Apostle any where that his body was already redeemed from that bondage the redemption of it from which he there saies he waited for were more then and hundred such shifts his proofs alleadged in our discourse from Rom. 8.2 2 Cor. 13.8 He was then so answered to and beaten from that he hath here passed them over as not able to relieve him For the Apostles travelling for the Galatians as I remember in the dispute he disclaimed it then for making for his purpose when T. M. was answering him to it thinking he had had some reference to it in what he spake about Pauls travelling and that it s not to his purpose is evident because the Apostle saies not there as in the other place of the Romans that he waited or travelled for the redemption of his own body no nor for the redemption of their bodies but till Christ was formed in them not coupling in himselfe together with them as condescending in such a manner to their states Setting down two or three of my questions together without his answer to them he then taxes me for omitting the word bondage in speaking of the redemption of the body which word he saies he used a great matter is it not when as the very word redemption implies some bondage to be redeemed from nor doth the Apostle use the word Bondage in speaking of the redemption of their body the creatures groaning to be delivered and the Saints waiting for the redemption of the body we before shewed at the dispute also to be distinct things and not the same He saies here again That the Saints had that redemption of the body from the bondage of corruption when the creatures were delivered into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God before their decease But he proves it not nor could do at the dispute 't is proofs we looke for and not bare assertions upon his own authority which without proof from Scriptures weighs with us nothing The Scripture neither saies that the creatures had the deliverance into the liberty of the Sons of God nor that the Saints had the redemption of their body before their decease but speaks of both as things future and therefore groaned and waited for see else Rom. 8.19 20 21 22 23. And indeed they could not be before those Saints deceased for evident it is that the Apostle ver 17.18 speaks about their sufferings with Christ and reigning with Christ and speaks of the sufferings with him as first and the Reigne as a thing afterward the sufferings are of this present time or life but the glory is to be after revealed and therefore spoken of as in the future to this present time shall be revealed in or upon us and about that glory and revelation of it and the redemption of the body from the sufferings that go before it speaks ver 19 20 21 22 23. Now seeing the glory could not be revealed nor the redemption of the body from the sufferings be before the sufferings be accomplished and their sufferings even the sufferings of the present time were to bodily Death therefore it followes that the redemption of the body from the bondage it was under in and by those sufferings could not be till after their decease except the Redemption be before the bondage and the glory thereof before the sufferings contrary to the Apostles order in speaking of them which one consideration to those that can and will see may suffice to shew that it 's no error or absurdity in me as G. W. after reckons it to say that the corruption which Paul waitted and groaned for the Redemption of his body from is the corruption of mortality in part though he hath belyed me by his addition in saying as part of my assertion in which the body is in death when it is in corruption for I had no such non-sensical expression That the Apostles waited for the Redemption of the body from all the bondage and misery that the sufferings of this time or life could bring it to and so from bondage to death and grave also and in that hope and expectation yeilded up their bodies to sufferings for Christs sake is evident in the Scriptures It was the hope of the Resurrection even of that resurrection of the dead in which what is sown in Corruption is raised in Incorruption that led them into Jeoperdies to fight with Beasts after the manner of men 1 Cor. 15.30 32 42 53. that made them speak though death therethrough wrought in them 2 Cor. 4.12 13 14. Oh how wicked and corrupt concerning the faith are these men that deride the looking for and hope of that Redemption of the body because a thing so many hundreds of yeares off as
That men in whom sin is are not or cannot be while such compleat in Christ 20. That to have sin in men and to be in those sins is all one 21. That the 63. Psalm verse 11. tends to encourage Drunkards and Prophane persons in swearing which is contrary to the Doctrine of Christ These and such like be his intimations as is before more fully shewed The Lord deliver the Reader from such deceits and make the folly of these men yet more evident that poor Souls may not be snared by them I shall adde no more to G. W. but leave him to the Lords convincement and silencing Who when he sets home his reproâ—… to any of them will do it to such purpose as to stop their clamorous cavils which they cease not to invent and raise up against us though against our clearest confutations of them because they be absurd and unreasonable men The Lord exalt his Name and truth to the rebuke and silence of their errors against him Queries sent by Richard Hubberthorne to us with our answer to them And the like number of Queries sent by I. H. to Richard Hubberthorne to be answered plainly by him Richard Hubberthorne sent these ensuing Queries to us thus entituled These few Queries grounded upon the Scriptures concerning the resurrection of the body of Christ I send unto you to Answer in the form of sound words according to your Faith in the same 1 SEeing the Scripture saith no man Ascended up to Heaven but he that came down from Heaven even the Son of man which is in Heaven with what body was the Son of man then in heaven when the man Christ Jesus was upon the Earth in that boy which was crucified at Jerusalem 2. And when Christ was raised from the dead whither might any 〈…〉 before he was Ascended to the Father seeing he said unto Mary touch me not for I am not yet Ascended to my Father but go to my brethren and tell them I Aseend to my Father and your Father to my God and your God Joh. 20.17 3. And whether at the same time did not the same Mary touch him seeing that in Mat. 28.9 it is said she met Jesus saying All hail and held him by the feet and worshiped him 4. Whether the two men that stood by the Sepulchre in shining garments or white apparrel as in Luke 24.4 which they both saw as men and heard them speak had two real individual distinct bodies as the bodies of men and seeing that those two men and also Jesus is said all to appear in white Linnen or shining apparrel whether had they all bodies alike of flesh and bones which a Spirit hath not as Luk. 24.39 or they only had such bodies as a Spirit hath without flesh and bones 5. And how did the women distinguish which was Christ whether by his bodily appearance not to be like the other or by the power of his voice seeing they all was both seen and heard and Mary when she first saw him knew him not till he first spake to her John 20.16 and seeing that both the Angels and Christ spake the same words to Mary whereby did she distinguish 6. Again seeing the Scripture saith that the same women at the same time found not the body of Christ but returned and said they had seen a vision of Angels which said that he was alive as Luke 24. Ch. at the 23. whether was it only a vision of Angels seen invisible or it was visible bodies or persons of men or visible voices 7. And seeing the Scripture saith in Mat. 28.7 That they should go in Gallilee and there should see him whether did the eleven Disciples first see him at Gallilee or at Jerusalem seeing that Luke saith Luke 24. that the same day in which he did arise he appeared in the midst of them where the eleven were met together in Jerusalem ver 33. and John 20.19 it is said the same day at evening being the first day of the week when the doors were shut Jesus stood in the midst of them here is the eleven mentioned to be met together and yet it is said that Thomas was not among them John 20.24 And after the eight daies in which he appeared to them again Whether in all this time had he Assended to his Father and their Father to his God and their God 8. And whether is not all these things mystery and cannot be seen nor known nor understood as they are but as the Spirit doth open and reveal them Richard Hubberthorne These for John Horne and Thomas More to answer Note here Reader 1. That the form of sound words is according to our Faith in the Resurrection of Christ So the Title perfixed by him implies and that is rightly implyed though hapily more than he intended therein he spake truth like as Caiaphas did 2. That they are not of our Faith and so not of a sound faith about the Resurection of the body of Christ 3. That he saies these Queries be concerning the Resurrection of the body of Christ And yet the first speaks of what Christ said while he was not yet put to death or risen from it And in all the rest he implies his curiosity and evil designe to render the Scriptures but a cunningly devised fable or Allegory having no real truth in them in what they speak about that Resurrection and to that he believes neither it nor them according to their Testimony concerning it but endevours to render them not to be regarded or believed according to their sayings as being full of contradictions and absurdities that so people might wave them and learn the mystery from the Quakers Such wickednesse is clearly enough to those that have the eyes of their understanding opened touched in those Queries as the eighth more clearly implyeth To these Queres I J. Horne returned this following answer which I also prepared for him and had in readinesse to have sent him upon the receit of his answers to my eight Queries after mentioned which seeing I have not hitherto received from him I have now made publick as followeth 1. To the first I say That the Scripture in John 3.13 Doth not say that Christ was in Heaven in his body then and therefore that Question in what body was the Son of man then in Heaven is not grounded on the Scripture Paul was wrapt up into the third heaven when yet his body was upon earth Men may be in their minds and spirits where their bodies are not as Col. 2.5 much more might Christ who was also God He as God or the eternal Word was then in heaven and in his Spirit ascended up to heaven so as no man else could even when his body was upon the Earth and not in heaven as now it is 2. To the second I say some might touch Christ when he was raised from the dead before he was ascended and taken up in his body into heaven there to be and remain