manhood also after so low humiliation Finally it was his own most free and fore determined will Would hee then so mournfully grieve and complaine thereat It hath no reason nor likelyhood in it Iohn 1â—â— Lazarus when he was returned from the ioyes of heaven to take againe his rotten carcase ofter it stanke having lyen 4. dayes dead in the grave yet he grieved not at it neither ought he so to have don Much lesse ought Christ so to grieve and mourne for a lesser want and for a shorter season as we may thinke then that was to Lazarus But this matter is not worth the speaking of “ See bâ— to this puâ— pag. 10â— any further Neither doe your Fathers prove any such improbable yea vnlawfull mourning complayning in Christ If they prove any thing towardes your meaning it is this that he complayned because of his bodily dying Howbeit they say not that he thus complayned only and meerely for that neither I thinke will you plainly hold this neither doe wee deny the other The truth is they meane he suffered in his whole Humane nature How the â—â—thers are 〈◊〉 taken namely that he suffered not as God They strove heere with Haeretikes whose controversies were far from this our question f Hilar. 〈◊〉 Trin li. 〈◊〉 Hilary and g Epiph. 〈◊〉 Arioma 〈◊〉 Epiphanius wrot against Arius to prove that Christ in this complaint shewed rightly a humane infirmity and that this was not the voice of a Deity inferiour to the Father as Arius blasphemed These Fathers then had no purpose heere to exclude the sufferings of Christes Soule but only to deny that his Godhead suffered complayned as being left to punishment by his Father when the sorrowes of death began to prevayle against him The very same doth †In Maâ—â— can 33. 〈◊〉 Hilary also where he saith that this in Christ was Corporis vox the outcry of his body He plainly meaneth it of his whole manhood the opposition being betweene it and his Godhead â—reat 1. â—â—g 9. as the Scripture †often doth And where he saith he was morte peragendus to be coÌ„summated by death he meaneth that death ended all his suffering not that hee suffered nothing els but meerely death And if their words do any where come neere to our question â—ertul cont â—â—ax â—â—ila in Mat. â—â—au 33. as it is very likely that h Tertulian and the one place of i Hilary doth then surely they are plainly for vs and against you Tertullian pointeth in this place at certaine Haeresies maintained in his time wherwth it seemeth Praxeas was infected 1 That the Father suffered aswell as the Sonne when Christ suffered 2 That the Deity suffered 3 That Christ was no true nor perfit man All these pointes Tertullian overthroweth heere Quid de isto quaeris c. What inquire you of Christ You heere him crying out in his Passion My God my God why hast thou forsaken me The Sonne therefore suffered being forsaken of his Father but this is meant of the Flesh and of the Soule that is of the Man not of the Word nor of the Spirit Heere it is plaine that Tertullian sheweth besides the rest this point exactly that Christ was a very man in that he had a proper Body and a Soule and that this his suffering on the Crosse was in both these partes and so in his whole intire manhood Also that he suffered in both these parts even froÌ„ his Father â—eere pag. 63. â—at 1. pa 4 But he could not suffer in his Soule froÌ„ †God if he felt only and meerely but a bodily death as you hold And to suffer the stroke of Gods hand in his Soule as the proper vengeance of sin is farre more then to feele in Soule by sympathy only the bodies smart Neither had Tertull. overthroweÌ„ but confirmed that Haeresie of Christs being no true natural man if he had said that in this case he suffered in Soule only by symphathy with and from the Body But this is absurd to thinke in Tertullian Therefore in this place he is flatly against you And this DerelictioÌ„ of his Father which he speaketh of is Death indeed to the Sonne But what death Forsooth more then the separation of the Soule and Body â—at Death â—â—e Soule in â—ist wee â—â—ne Even the seperation of the Deity from the whole manhood which is the death of the Soule I speake heere nothing but the Fathers words yea the Scriptures Your owne place of Epiphanius saith that nowe his Deity departed from his manhood So saith your owne Hilary also Corporis vox contestata recedentis a se Dei dissidium So saith Ambrose Clamavit Homo Divinitatis separatione moriturus The man Christ did cry being about to dy by the separation of his Godhead Againe Sequestrata delectatione Divinitatis aternae taedio meae infirmitatis afficitur The ioy of his eternall Godhead being parted away hee was afflicted with the tediousnis of my infirmitie Heere the Fathers doe shewe in deed that Christ dyed but more then a meere bodily death even the death of the Soule also For what is the Separation of the Deitie from his Soule els but the death of the Soule Howbeit note I pray that neither the Fathers nor I do meane any Separating 1 of the vnion of a The Dâ—â— Humâ—â— both natures in Christ nor the Separating 2 of any Holynes or habituall grace of God from his Soule 3 nor the Separating of Gods love from him See befoâ—â— pag. 10â— but the SeparatioÌ„ of all comfortable feeling assistance of the Godhead in that he felt not any supporting of his Soule and Body now pierced thorow with the Paines which he felt inflicted by God This SeparatioÌ„ is meant and it b Thougâ— haps thâ— ther 's dâ— this phâ—â— rarely may be called the Death of the Soule For as it is c Psal â—â— life to the Soule to feele and to enioy the glorie of God So it is death to feele the want and absence thereof vtterly and the rather being also then overwhelmed with incomparable paines That heavenly life Christ tasted a litle while in his TransfiguratioÌ„ this Hellish Death he felt besides his bodily death vpon the Crosse And thus Tertull. meaneth heere that not Christs bodily death only made him now thus to cry out but that death also which was the Separation of his Godhead from both his body Soule which is the death of the Soule And so he saith true the Dereliction of the Father is Death to the Sonne Your d Pag. â—â—â— 4. Exposition for any thing I see may be granted for it seemeth to bee the same in effect that wee holde Your place of Cyrill seemeth also to concurre that Christes words of complaint were the removing of the dereliction which had fallen on vs. Was it removed from vs then surely it was laid vpon some body els Now that must needes be vpon
by the death and bloud of Christ. So you commend the force and frute of his bodily death as most sufficient â—ag 84. â—â—g 88. And * the bodily death of Christ payeth the price of our Redemption â—ag 335. it removeth all the impediments of our salvation The ioynt sufferings of Christ the Soule feeling what the Body suffered were most avaylable for our salvation â—â—g 336. †The violence was offered to the Body the sense whereof reached vnto the Soule and these are the sufferings of the Crosse and of death which the Scriptures attribute to the Sonne of God for our salvation â—â—g 60. 58. There is no other sacrifice of Christs Soule which can be neither bodily nor bloudy * The iustice of God both temporally and eternally punisheth the Soule only by the Body 〈◊〉 254. 255 Nevertheles contrariwise you seeme some where to yeeld wholly so much as we affirme â—â—g 17. As where you say The same part might indeed suffer in Christ which sinned in man J meane the Soule If you meane as you seeme and as you ought that as every part and faculty of the Soule is in vs sinfull so in Christ it suffered for our sinne then in his Soule he suffered for sinne properly and immediatly that is in his very Mind from the immediat hand of God not only from and by his Body 〈◊〉 87. 4. Againe you allow in Christ * All those afflictions and passions of the Soule which naturally and necessarily follow paine This All reacheth vnto mo and more grievous paines then the meere bodily are it includeth the Soules porper immediat paines also 〈◊〉 138. And yet playner Smart paine and grief of body or mind bee it never so great will commend his obedience and patience 〈◊〉 286. And * the punishment of sinne which proceedeth from the iustice of God and is no sinne that Christ might and did beare Yea he suffered death with all painfull 〈◊〉 87. but no sinfull concomitants and consequents 〈◊〉 76. And * nothing might befall the humane nature of Christ which was vnfitting for his Diuine Whence we gather vnderstanding you in the best sence that whatsoeuer was fitting for his Divine nature to admit of in his Humanity that his humane nature did feele Consequently then he felt all the paines of the damned which were no sinnes neither indeed perpetuall seeing his Divine nature could admitt this in his Manhood aswell as any suffering at all for sinne You will say If hee felt not also desperation as the damned do then hee felt not all the paines which the damned do feele For desperation augmenteth their very paines I answere we say not that Christ suffered simply All the paines of the damned that is He felt not such as are by their very nature sinnes aswell as paines as indeed desperation is But I say Christ suffered none of those paines All other which are by their nature meere paines and onely painfull Christ did suffer them as sharply for the time we doubt not as the very damned do So that if your L. will stand to that which before we obserued in you and not clip it not renounce it we professe this is all that ever we did or do craue wee neede no longer to striue it is the wholl question which you grant vs viz That Christ did beare punishment of sinne as great as any is proceeding from the Justice of God yet being no sinne Whence it must needes follow that the paines of Christes suffering were the same in nature and altogeather as sharpe and as painfull as they are in Hell it self And this is the whol summe of the matter about Christes Hellish sorrowes and paines thus standeth our quaestion with these differences according to which we hold and professe that Christ suffered the Wrath of God or Hell paines If you set the question otherwise you go back from that which you found fault withall in your Sermons you fully ioyne with the Preachers and Catechismes of England yea withall other Protestants in the world and namely with all them whom at first you reproued and traduced openly for this cause There is none of them I assure you that euer spake or meant any more then this issue delivereth If you agree to this I beseech you what wisedom shewed you in your whot confutations exclamations so vehemently to condemne you knewe not what and to reprove you knew not whom Further if any do teach that Christ suffered the paines of Hell in a grosse and locall maner though you most iniuriously do invey at vs for such a matter yet verily it is neerer your owne assertion then ours if you be well observed For seeing you determine simply that Christ might did suffer such punishment of sinne which proceeds from the iustice of God and is no sinne it seemeth by your speech that Christ did suffer Torments even locally in Hell it selfe for that had ben a punishment that is no sinne â—â—â—â—â—icus â—â—â—â—â—st Latiâ—â—â—er Act. â—â—â—â—on that in deed some learned and godly men did hold but erroneouslie As for vs somway we avouch your sentence also that Christ suffered whatsoeuer punishment of sinne which proceeded from the iustice of God is no sinne but yet with expresse limitation froÌ„ Scripture namely in CircuÌ„stances as I shewed viz. in this world only not after his crosse at all nor locally among the damned So that thus we say it is not true that Christ suffered the paines of Hell 〈◊〉 hold not 〈◊〉 at Christ â—â—â—fered simâ—â—y the parâ—â—s of Hell which yet those your fore-noted indefinit wordes doe import Nay speaking exactly wee vse not this terme of Hell neither delight we to vse it ofteÌ„ in any regard about our maine Quaestion because we finde not this word literally and expreslie applied to Christes sufferinges in the Scripture Howbeit sometimes we speake so I graunt and I thinke that wee may well doe so As also 〈◊〉 â—ny other â—â—â—nts of Reâ—â—â—on are â—â—â—yme afâ—â—â—ned vtâ—â—â—ed when we vnderstand it by plaine Consequence froÌ„ Scripture for the extreame paines of Gods proper wrath vengeance for sinne from which euen Hell it selfe is not separated yea Gods very wrath is a parte and the greatest parte of Hell paines Or els Metaphorically when we haue to set out with an emphasis the most dolefull and incomparable paines of Christes sufferinges as they appeared onely to the sense of men not otherwise Which it seemeth your selfe also liketh well enough 〈◊〉 8. â—34 â—â—9 But howe badly then doe you vrge vpon vs and perswade men that we doe must say in maintenance of this our Question â—â—imious â—â—â—tation 〈◊〉 1.8.244 â—â—7 264 â—â—0 34â— * that Christ suffered All the sorrowes of Hell the whole Curse of God his whole wrath and All the very Torments of the damned and that in such sense as you make of those wordes that is including in
Goates a slaine a Scapegoat * Pag. 23. You obiect heere against 1. that I abuse the Text. That were a great fault but let vs view the text Thus are the very expresse wordes which you also recite * ver 5 Aaron shall take of the people 2. Goats for a Sinne-offering Surely you must bring very good reason to frustrat so plaine a speach That is you say to make a Sinne-offering of one of them Nay the very words are take 2. Goats for a Sinne-offering it saith not take 2. Goats that one of them may be a Sinne-offering But this sheweth so much you thinke where the text saith Lottes were cast over the 2 Goates one lot for the Lorde the other for the Scapegoat And Aaron shall offer the Goat on which the Lordes lot shall fall and make him a Sinne-offering These wordes prove not that the Scapegoat was no Sinne-offering at all Vnlesse this were true that no Sinne offering can possibly bee but by killing and slaying and sheadding of bloud Although the “ Heb. 9. Scripture say Without sheadding of bloud is no remission yet it meaneth that Allmost all things are in the Law purged with bloud That is many Offerings and sacrifices are bloudy but not all I take now sacrifice and offering in the largest sense as signifying any consecrated thing given to God to appease him for sinne And such vnbloudy Sinne-offerings very many we shall finde in * Lev. 2.11 13 8 13. Nomb. 1â— 18 11 28 12 14. Moses Law Wherefore the Scapegoat may we yet a Sinne-offering though it were not slaine nor bloudy And his vtter sending away into the vnknown Deserts may answer to the consuming of som other Sacrifices by fire Thus then these wordes of the text which you bring doe not proue the Scapegoate to be no Sinne-offering at all they proue it to be no bloudy Offering and therefore not such but of another kind then the slaine Goat was It might be consecrated and offered to the Lord and vtterly sequestred from men and beare and take away sinne no lesse then the slaine Goat wherein verily consisteth the nature and being of a Sacrifice or true Sinne-offering And in very deede all this the text following expresly avoucheth of the Scape goate ver 10. The Scapegoat shal be presented alive before the Lord to make reconciliation by him to let him go for a Scape-goat Heere is his Consecrating vnto the Lord yea reconciliation also is made by him though he dyed not as the other did Againe more plainly ver 21 22. * And Aaron shall put both his handes vpoÌ„ the head of the live Goat and confesse vpon him all the iniquities of the Children of Israell all their trespasses and all their sinnes putting them vpon the head of the Goat and shall send him away alive into the Wildernes So the Goat shall beare vpon him all their iniquities into the Wildernes being let go thither Can there be any thing in the world more full and strong to prove that the Scapegoat also was a true Sinne-offering or rather a true parte of this wholl and intire Sinne-offering consisting and being compleat in both these Goats the slaine and the Scapegoat togeather For as the slaine Goate so this Scapegoat wee see was aswell Consecrated to the Lord and * heere Offered though not by killing and separated from men ver 10. ver 21 22. have vpon him all the sinnes of the people and caryed them cleane away So wee may reade of other Sacrifices consisting and being compleat wholly of Sacrifices of sundry divers kindes Nomb. 28.3 c. The bloudy Sacrifice had conioyned togeather with it the vnbloudy Sacrifice of the Meat offering and another of the Drinke offering c. Which may very likely represent vnto vs the sundry and divers kindes of Christes meritorious Sufferings in his life time at his Death som bloudy some vnbloudy but all concurring togeather making the full and persit propitiation for al our sinnes And even such a Sacrifice or Sinne-offering it seemeth surely these 2. Goats were Heere then your advisednes may bee noted by all men which doe reprove me for this assertion and that with such violent and vncomly termes Now if it be a Figurative Sinne-offering what signified this Figure Certainly it signified Christ and his taking away of our sinnes by his death Have you any colour of reason to maintaine those wide coniectures of the * Ancients â—yrill Amâ—â—ose Beda that the Scapegoat signified the Reprobat and castaway people or ells cursed Barrabas that scaped death when Iesus was slaine Who but you would defend these palpable mistakinges of those men And why Because they are Ancient Yet see you not the expresse text against theÌ„ Do damned men or did Barrabas reconcile vs to God take away our sinnes as the Scapegoat did typically Nay surely It must needs be then that it signified Christ yea doubtles Christ man For the Godhead could bee no Sinne-offering neither did it make reconciliation for sinne neither did the Deity beare our sinnes vpon himselfe properly all which the Scapegoat * Tipically did Further if it were Christ man it could not be his Body for his body was slaine bloudily the Scapegoat was not slaine For the other Goat a Sacrifice to being slaine this survived and went away into the land of separation It must then be of necessity I thinke the Humane mortall Soule of Christ which the Scapegoate signified which was a true Sinne-offering and made propitiation for vs aswell as the slaine Goat and bare vpon him our sinnes though his Soule dyed not bloudily nor by loosing life and sense as his body and the typicall slaine Goat did You say “ Pap. 235. If this Scapegoat do signifie Christs Soule then it cannot be that Christes Soule Suffered much lesse dyed any death This obiection truly you might haue spared seeing my self * Treat 1 1â— before brought it fully answered it where against you have said never a word The effect whereof is this The escaping of the Goat may lively shew vnto vs that Christs Soule dyed not as the Body dyed by loosing life and sense but surviving went hence into Hades the land of separation the invisible world of the Dead But in that the Scapegoat did beare and sustaine our sinnes and was indeede a Sinne-offering to aswell as the slaine Goat so it may well signifie that Christes Soule properly suffered and sustayned the burden of our sinnes in satisfying for them no lesse then his body which was bloudily slaine therefore As for the Dying of Christs Soule we shall answer you for that in due place heereafter So that Now where you say “ Pag. 234. I am more bold then wise in affirming the Scapegoat to signifie the Soule of Christ Surely then I were like you who affirme as boldly that among the Iewes no Sacrifice at all foreshewed any Suffering of
â—â—s heere â—â—g 16. e that no more but the shedding of his bloud onely and meerely is the iust and full satisfaction of all our sinnes even in the righteous and sincere iudgment of God Then we absolutly deny your Assertion as before we haue don the like As for your a 1 Pet. 1 Rev. 5. â— alleaged Scriptures we answer them as we did generally b Treat pag. 8.9 before that they meane not the meere bloud of Christ nor only the body singly and simply considered but that togeather with the proper sufferings of his Soule also they were the iust and full satisfaction and redemption Against which you have nothing any where And likewise our advised and resolut answere is to c pag. 58 60 61 7â— c. all the rest of your scriptures which most tediously and vainly you heape vp scatter every wherein your former treatise to this effect as if they contayned somwhat for your purpose when as indeed there is not one text any where that hath any meaning of your strange conceit So that wee shall have no need to trouble our selves any more heereafter about any of them Yet d pag. 24â— heere you vrge a reason against vs Jf our Soules be not redeemed by the bloud of Christ our bodyes have no benefit of redemption you meane from death But we e 1. Pet. 1 Rev. 5.9 are redeemed not we shal be Ergo it is our Soules which are redeemed our bodyes are not redeemed as yet in this life Wherein we have to note 3. things 1. Your Proposition is vaine and illogicall having no consequence in it at all Which maketh mee to thinke that I hit your meaning right and mistooke you not in my former booke Howbeit to try this your sentence heere what if our Soules were not at all redeemed by Christes bloud but some other way or not by his bloud meerely and onely which indeede is our quaestion will it follow that therefore our bodyes are still mortall and therefore not redeemed from death Or what if our Soules be redeemed by his bloud as indeed they are though not wholly nor only thereby What followeth then from this Nay what if our Soules and Bodyes were redeemed wholly and only by Christs bloud Is these any consequence that therefore our bodyes should now be redeemed from death and never dy Truly I cannot discerne but that your proposition meaneth some such consequence as this which is to me a vey strang reason Yet that which you ad f Pag. 2â— afterward is more strang Jf our Soules be not redeemed wholly by the meere bloud of Christ For thus still I say you must make your wordes or ells you aske the very Quaestion then our bodyes have vtterly no good even no good at all by the death of Christ. In which sequele verily I can see neither head nor taile Chose you now whether you will that you speake this sophistically or absurdly For I cannot discerne it I leave it therefore to your self to determine But perhaps you will yet againe go backe to that you excused your selfe withall before You will meane that our bodies in this life have no benefit of redemption from death even no more then the bodies of Infidels And this plainly you avouch for truth Is this true Are not our bodies now already freed from the curse the sting of death from all the hurt harme that properly and naturally is in death Is it not made vnto vs a quiet sleepe and a peaceable rest an entrance for our Soules into Heaven a putting off of sin to our bodies in such wise that Christ taketh from it the a name of Death and calleth it but b a passage â—oh 8.51 Or have the Jnfidels also thus much benefit in death â—oh 5 2â— as wee have in it by our redemption in Christe I know not therefore how to terme this your assertion I forbeare to name it as it deserveth it is more then strange that Infidels bodies should have as much benefit of nedemption from death as our bodies have by Christ Dy I grant or cease to breath we must and do still even as they do And this death by the naturall property of it is a part of Gods Curse but to the faithful there are great benefits ioyned even in death by the gracious dealing of God peculiarly towardes his children which also their bodies are partakers of thorough the death of Christ The naturall sting is taken out of it for the godly yet it remayneth to the Infidells and hurteth them by retayning even their bodies though dead in vnder Gods dreadfull Curse Wherefore it makes many to thinke that indeed you vttered this matter somewhat otherwise in your Sermons then heere you doe now publish it and it perswadeth mee still that c I mistooke you not â—â—eat 1. â—â—g 11. seeing this your turning setting of it is so vnhansom For every one may see by this your handling of it that then you said more then heere you expresse and heere you would faine fashion it to somwhat but you cannot Yea your own words bewray som alteration froÌ„ that which so confidently you preached where you say Whatsoever the wordes were that you might vse which you do not acknowledge to be these that I bring â—ag 240. Lastly d you grant that you vsed this reason in handling the power of Christes death that is when you preached it For now in this Treatise you have cleane left it out for ought that e I can see which bewrayeth that it was such 〈◊〉 88.113 as your selfe saw was not to be maintayned howsoever heere you strive to set some colour vpon it though yet still in vaine Before we depart from this point That not the bloud of Christ nor his flesh meerely and only without respect to the merit of his whole Soule was the full price of Redemption heere is fit place to shew how sundry of the Ancient Fathers do agree with vs sufficiently in this matter although afterward in your booke you seeme to bring them against vs. But indeed so they seeme onely for in truth they are with vs as by these following we may see First a Ireâ— 5. Irenaeus The Lord bought vs with his owne bloud and gave his soule for our soules his flesh for our flesh b Cyr. de 〈◊〉 fid ad Tâ—â— Cyrill He bestowed his flesh as a ransome for our flesh and made his Soule likewise a price of redemption for our Soules although he lived againe being by nature life it selfe c Naz. in trâ—â— 49. ad Clâ—â— Nazianzen maketh every part of man to be sanctified by the like in Christ our condemned flesh by his flesh our soule by his soule our vnderstanding by his vnderstanding d Ambr. 〈◊〉 Luc. 22. 〈◊〉 trist doloâ—â— c. Ambrose saith Maerorem animae nostrae suae animae maerore abolevit He abolished the sorrow of our Soule by the sorrow of
will disprove d Treat â—â— pag. 19. my Proposition which is whereby Adam first sinned by the same Christ satisfied for sinne You deny this because the Scripture acknowledgeth no satisfaction but by death where still we must note that you meane only by the Bodily death Now how proove you that Because the iudge in prohibiting Adam to transgresse threatned death e Ocn. 2. Jn the day that thou catest thereof thou shalt dye the death Which it seemeth f Pa. 100. 64. you avouch againe and againe And are you sure that Death heere is but the bodily death only no more Then surely the wicked should satisfie easilie for their sinnes Far be it from me to vtter such a sentence Neverthelesse you must give me leave to shew you also your contradiction in this point First in that where you acknowledge g Pag. 42. the Iudges revenge for sinne is Death both of body and soule Againe where you h Pag. 18. agree with Athanasius shewing expresly that this text intendeth even both these Anima dixit Morte morieris He saide to the Soule Thou shalt dy the death But you would prove your matter againe by this Hebr. 9.15 a Through death which was for our redemption we receaue the promise Yet he saith not Through his bodily death meerely and alone and by nothing els togeather therewith which is your intent He excludeth not the Soules proper sufferings as b I have often said Treat 1. the contrarie heereof you never come neere to proove And it must not be forgotten Pag. 8 9. that c heere â—ou renounce all satisfaction for sinne in respect of merit as from Christes soule vtterly Pag. 253. Therefore that absurd speech and worse which you d vniustly cast on me Pa. 250. c. proveth in very deed to be your owne that Christes suffering in Soule by Sympathy makes not to our redemption Your own place in Barnard maketh Christes whole Soule that is the Minde and the part depending on the Body also to have place and part in the meritorious sacrifice Pag. 84. as well as the Body e Vt totum hominem salvum fecit sic de Toto se hostiam fecit salutarem Which suteth not with your wordes The Soule of Christ which could not dye could not pay the satisfaction and nothing might satisfie for sinne but death Pag. 85 86 8. c. Yea all your f other places of Contradiction herevnto must be taken in good part As for your reason That nothing may satisfie for sinne but death it is not sound The Scriptures doe shew in deed that Christ should not satisfie without Death but they deny not that there are other partes of Christes Satisfaction which differ from Death As his bloudshed and besides that Christs Povertie his hunger his wearines his shame his reproches his apprehension his buffeting c. These doubtles yea all other suffringes of Christ whatsoever small or great are satisfactorie meritorious You will say you vnderstand all these and such like in the Death of Christ You may vnderstand what you list but who will grant in proper speech that these are his Death or that his death is any or all these And if you take Christes death by the Figure Synecdoche a part of Christes sufferings for the whole Pag. 41. c. then why doe g you so much abhorre that Figure heere and why may not the Soules proper sufferings be admitted also into the worke of Christes Satisfaction although it can not properly dye Where you nippe me also for saying that the Soule of Christ in some kinde of sense dyed I hope in due place you shall have a reasonable answer to that matter Till then have patience I pray And thus h you come to skan my Assumption also Pag. 253. that Adam committed sinne most properly in his Soule Which you graunt in one sense is true but directly repugnant to my Conclusion How I pray b Pag. 25 If I meane that Adams Soule transgressed the CoÌ„mandement with her body and by her body that is the Soule as agent the Body as the Instrument theÌ„ the conclusion will follow in spite of my heart Ergo in satisfiing for sinne Christs Soule must be punished with her body and by her body which is the thing I labour to overthrow with all the wits I have Nay then the Conclusion will follow that the immortall part the Minde was punished peculiarly and not by and from the Body onely seeing in all even outward sinnes the Soule sinneth both principally and also in a proper and peculiar maner by it selfe yea before the body sinneth Albeit the Body sinneth also secoÌ„darily and in a maner proper to it selfe even as the Instrument as you say Yea further I meane that some sinnes the Soule acteth in and by it selfe meerely and therefore it suffereth likewise some punishments meerely in it selfe which touch not the Body at all vnlesse by Sympathy only and that only when they grow vehement But all this you heere deny Very stranâ— doctrine teaching that the Soule properly committeth no sinne but by and with the body that is the Soule in it self by it selfe alone sinneth not And so consequently that God temporally and eternally punnisheth the Soule only by the Body This is the true effect of your discourse heere For proofe of the first you say c Pag. 25 God did not say to Adam thou shalt not like d The soâ—â—den fruiâ—â— it or desire it which the Soule of Adam did but thou shalt not eat thereof which could not be performed but by the hand and mouth of Adam And therefore Adam transgressed the Commandment not by his Soule but by his Body even as in murder theft and adultery these factes men commit by their Bodies and not by their Soules And after All provocations and pleasures of sinnes the Soule taketh from her ' Body all actes of sinne she committeth by her body Both which speeches are exceeding vntrue and hurtfull For even in these sinnes the Soule as I said sinneth principally and peculiarly before that the Body sinneth at all Yea the Desiring and Liking of evell is sinne before the outward Act is coÌ„summat and finished This Paul e Rom. 〈◊〉 vnderstood at length when he became a Christian though a long while being a Pharisee he knew it not And it seemeth this was in Christs time the Haeresie of the Pharisees against whom he sheweth that not only the outward fact of Bodily sinne was sinne but also a â—at 5.22.28 even the very thoughts and liking towards sinne Wherefore Adam was as well forbidden to desire or like that fruit as to eat it which you deny The Commandement was naturally ingraven in Adams hearte in his Creation Which since Moses maketh distinct and diverse from all the rest which concerne the outward acte Therefore distinctly he saith Thou shalt not desire or covet So that to desire the forbidden
doâ—â— fully 〈◊〉 vnto emphasis d Isa 53 Hee susteyned our very sorrows or our sorrowes themselves And this we conclude the rather because the sense of paines and sorrows e Heb. 2â— only was the Ransom ordayned and consecrated by God in Christ that by them his sufferings should be accomplished our sinnes satisfied Whatsoever therefore in this life might be painfull was due to mankind generally for sin in it owne nature was no sin that Christ suffered wholly and alltogeather for vs even the same which els we should Which is your own f pa. 28â— plaine confession also I grant indeed it vtterly impossible that he who was vncapable of sinne yea God himselfe should be really separated from God or Hated or weakened in faith or punished externally Yet it was possible that even he on whom our sinne was laid should feele both properly in Soule and also in Body all the whole vehemency of our due paine and the sharpenes of our smart Paine affliction sorrow is not sinne be it small or great it is indeed properly and originally the Punishment of sinne either in vs or in others Christe suffered Punishment for sinne not in himselfe as others do but by Gods ordinance he suffered punishment extraordinarily for sinne in vs. When God smot him it was possible for him to feele it yea vnpossible it was that he should not feele it and of necessitie his Soule peculiarly properly infinitly did feele the stroke of Gods wrathful iustice The vehemency whereof may wound and pierce no lesse even in this life where God will then in the locall Hell it selfe All these our due sorrowes therefore and all this our sharpest deserved paine even Gods owne immediat hand smiting the Soule for sinne which far exceedeth and comprehendeth as it were all other paine Christ without any dispensation or qualification whatsoever indured for vs. This is that which we say and thus Ierom also expoundeth this very text â—trom in 〈◊〉 53. Saith hee a Quod nos pro nostris debebamus sceleribus sustinere ille pro nobis ' passus est Turne nowe your vaine and frivolous insultation against Ierom for his indefinit speech to whom it pertayneth in this case aswell as to me Pag. 26â— if you be not a respecter of persons Say to him b You may do well St Ierom to go to the Vniversitie againe whence you came afore you were wise and there learne to put quantity to your propositions that we may know when you speak of any thing whether you meane All or Some But Jerom would be wise enough to answer you if he were alive that whersoever he studied he knew so much that in learning and reason an indefinit proposition is to be taken as Vniversall in a necessary matter 〈◊〉 specialâ—â— Satisfying Gods vnâ—â—all Iustice 〈◊〉 * as the vndertaking of a Surety is in his stead whom he is surety for and yet namely but so far as knowen possibility admitteth and indeed no further Now this is apparant in this case of Christes suretyship and suffering in our steed Hee suffered all the whole punishent of sinne due to mankinde whatsoever was possible for him being a sinles man also very God to suffer And further then this none will imagin or thinke that any vnles mad men do affirme You charge meâ— c heereafter that I falsify this place of Ierom 〈◊〉 350. â—â—reat 1. 〈◊〉 85. Curse 〈◊〉 I put it â—â—â—hus Maâ—â—ctum 〈◊〉 a paâ—â—â—nthesis â—â—nod enim â—â—al 3.13 because d I did put in e maledictum with his wordes Which is a silly devise to turne of Jerom without answer For by it I expresse Ieroms meaning f his words have plaine reference to Maledictum in the g Apostle whoÌ„ he cited immediatly before This is theÌ„ none other but an honest falsifying of mine Authour Now that this place of Isay and the whole doctrine which I avovch touching these sufferinges of Christ for vs may the better be receaved let vs note that the publike doctrine appointed by h Authority to be taught through our England expresseth the very same Which Auâ—â—â—tie I have â—â—â—ged exâ—â—sed Treat 〈◊〉 88.89 â—he answereth to iâ— a word Namely Nowells Catechisme where it is thus taught He paid and suffered the paine due to vs and by this meanes delivered vs from the same Neither is it vnvsed among meÌ„ â—ne to promise and to be surety yea sometime to suffer for an other But with Christe as our Surety so suffering for vs God dealt as it were with extremity of law but to vs whose sinnes deserved punishments due paines he laid on Christ he vsed singular lenity gentlenes clemency and mercy Christ therefore suffered and in suffering overcame death the paine appointed by the everliving God for mens offense Againe His will was to suffer All extremitie for vs who had deserved all extremitie All these things being taken vpon himselfe he destroyed them all Where marke also what doctrine the Law of this Realme consonantly publisheth and commandeth in the Homilies of Christs Passion See whether it misliketh yours or no. The b Hom. â— Hom maketh Christs putting himselfe betweene Gods deserved Wrath and our sinne the extreamest part of his Passion If this were the extreamest part of his Passion then it was a further feeling then the sense of Bodily paine only it cannot be any other then his feeling of Gods proper Wrath spiritually which our sinne deserved Therefore by the Homily hee felt Gods proper Wrath spiritually which our sinne deserved Againe he bare All our sinnes sores and infirmities vpon his owne backe No paine did he refuse to suffer in his owne body But as he felt All this in his Body so hee must feele the greatest part primarily and much more deeply in his Soule Ergo hee refused not to suffer All the paines of the Wrath of God both in Body and Soule c Hom. â—â— Hee tooke vpon him the reward of our sinnes the iust reward of sinne But this same Homily saith The reward of our sin was the iust wrath and indignation of God the death both of Body and Soule Therefore by the Homily Christ tooke on him for vs the iust wrath indignation of God the death both of body soule And thus also * 1. Treat pag. 34. my text of Scripture is iustified That d 2. Tim. â—â— Christ gave himselfe the price of redemption for vs which we els should have paid Where e Pa. 261. you except against this text in Timoth that I say The Scripture speaketh heere after the common vse custom of redeeming captives taken in warre wheÌ„ a captive being not able som other friend payeth Antilytron the same price for the captive which els he should You aske who told me that the Scripture speaketh after the common vse of enemies I answer The nature of the word Antilytron a Ransom importeth so much which is properly vsed in such cases
But neither shame nor Death to the holy Martyrs are d accounted by God nor by his servauntes as proper and true Curses Before pag. 9. 50. but the holy men are in trueth most glorious and blessed in them Againe the Saints and Martyrs can not bee properly Cursed and properly Blessed too in any measure Neither their Soules blessed vnles their bodyes be blessed also free from the true Curse although you seeme to denie this point Which strange and vncouth assertioÌ„ both heere and in many places mo you doe at least insinuat that is that the godly in their Soules are blessed but in their bodyes they still retaine Gods true proper Curse till the resurrection Which I leave to the consideration of the godly You say We must call things by those Names which God first allotted them That I deny If God since evidently have altered them and disposed of them otherwise But he hath so don in this case The afflictions and death which originally and naturally were punishments for sinne and are so still to the wicked the same to the godly as I have often said are since changed now are properly Chastisements of sinne and not Punishmentes nor Curses Only Christ hath suffered the whole proper punishment and true Curse or Vengeance of our sinnes and therefore on vs it is not it can not be laid againe in any part thereof You a Pag. 96. avouch some that denie Christ to have bene made a Curse or sinne But you must remember b Pag. 92. your owne place of Austin Maledictum est omne peccatum sive ipsum quod fit sive ipsum supplicium The Curse is all sinne which is twofold either that which we commit against Gods law or els the very Punishment of that sinne Nowe c Pag. 96. your testimonies do meane Christ was not made a Curse or sin the first way that is he was not in him selfe sinfull nor hated they deny not the second that he was made the proper punishment or Sacrifice for our sinne And thus though you lust not to see it yet my d Treâ—â— pag. 45. speach was sound and true If Christ dyed simply but as the Godly dye it might in no sort e Gal. 3. heere be called a Curse The reason is evident because the text heere doeth speak treat of the Curse of the Law against sinne such therefore was Christes Curse which he suâ—layned To conclude then his afflictions and death was neither Wages nor Chastisement nor Curse nor Consequent of any sinne in him Yet as God made him sinne for vs so he truely properly and in very deed laid the paine of his Curse vpon his body and Soule Which Curse of God vpon Christ as you f Pag 26 say truly was not in words but in deedes Wherefore my wordes g Pag. 2â— you openly pervert affirming that I say Death heere that is Christes death noted Galat. 3.13 â—ay in no sorte be called a Curse when I expresly even there and every where doe say the contrary Pag. 263. But a your greatest exception is that this Curse laid on Christ cannot be vnderstood of the whole Curse of God or of the Law Pag. 264. and therefore b you spare me not for c saying that Paul heere in his application out of Moses nameth a part of the iust Curse of the Law for sinne Treat 1. pag. 40. thereby meaning and inferring to his purpose the whole Where you must be so good as to vnderstand me by mine own words in other places Pag 290. For thus d you know e I limited my speach els where As touching the vehemency of paine Christ was as sharply touched as the very reprobats Treat 1. pag 81. And Christes sufferings were equall to the very Hellish torments in vehemency of paine and sharpnes Againe f This price equally in Justice must be kept so far as it is possible Pag. 26. And g Pag. 37. Because there was no impossibility no necessitie no reason but he might feele the full smart of our sinnes as there was that he should not feele the full continuance thereof and seeing Gods strict iustice requireth it to be so therefore it was so he suffered all the smart but not all the continuance of our punishment â— Also Pa. 23. Heeâ—e Pa. 13 Thus then plainly h I signified i those 3 Limitations which now are expressed that Christ suffered our whole Curse only so far as the possibilitie of thinges could admit wherein nothing was dispensed nor pardoned to him for there was no cause as I have often said Which doctrine how vnworthy it is of your strang contempt and outcryes against me I leave it to the godly Wise to consider Nowell Catechis Only marke if our k publike doctrine be not the same Vltima omnia pati voluir pro nobis qui vltima omnia commeriti sumus Diram execrationeÌ„ suscepit coÌ„tumelias etiaÌ„ omnes omnia probra atque supplicia c. But you will say thus we make it not the whole Curse of the Law Yes we cal it rightly the whole Curse for as much as Christ suffered it in his whole manhood See before pag 8. 1. The. 5.28 â— pa. 48. 52 even in l All the powers of his m Spirit Soule Body where that Curse in Deutero being a part was suffered only in the Body quickned by the Soul Also in other respectes this suffering of Christ may bee well called the whole Curse or PunishmeÌ„t of sin Pag. 11 12. â—nâ— 16.17 Pa. 27â— 280 as n before is declared After this o you thinke it strange that I say Christ suffered dyed iustly and was hanged on the tree by the iust sentence of the Law that so hee was by imputation of our state and condition vnto him sinfull 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 51.11 defiled hatefull and accursed All the which I avouch because he vndertooke by Gods ordinance as our Surety to receave our whole condemnation vpon himselfe so far as his owne nature and condicion could possibly admit Christ suffeâ— iustly to the ende that hee might wholly acquit vs. In regard whereof I aske Is it wrong for the Law to lay the penalty on the surety when the debtour can not discharge it Against this my assertion you say a Pag. 27â— By no sentence of the Law he hanged on a tree And a reason you give b Pag. 273 because to be hanged on a tree was no necessary part of the generall Curse of God vpon all sinners I answer to Dy for sinne was a necessary part of the generall Curse vpon all sinners What say you then to his Death Did he dy iustly Sure if Christ dyed by the rule of Gods iustice then he dyed iustly If he dyed not by Gods iustice then Wo and thrice Wo to vs. For it cannot be but Gods Iustice * Luc. 16.1 Deut. 10.1 Rom. 8.32 See before pag. 66. must
begging only no further proceeding at all It is written â—â—rk 6.34 a He began to teach them many things Also b And Iesus aunswered them and began to say 〈◊〉 13.5 Take heede least any man deceave you 〈◊〉 10.45 c. And c He began to cast out them that solde in the Temple 〈◊〉 1.1 c. And d All that which Iesus began to doe and teach 〈◊〉 24.2 And e Tertullus began to accuse Paul saying c. It were very simple to say that the Scripture meaneth these things were only begun and no more Nay verily they were heere don to the full Againe as Christ was indeed astonished grievouslie perplexed so he did at the first but begin to be thus and then afterwards grew to the full Now these degrees and proceedings of Christ in his sorrorwes that they were not at the highest at once this worde heere he began may very well signifie For the text following doth invincibly shew that he did fully come to the extreamity of astonishment began not only For did he but begin when hee swet clotted bloud trickling from his body to the ground Also when an Angell was sent from Heaven to refresh and comfort him did he then but begin to be heavy Againe when most moornfully he complained that his Soule abounded with sorrowes even vnto death Finally when he 3. severall tymes prayed to his Father with strong crying teares and feare that the Cup of Gods punishments now given him to drinke might passe from him if it were possible which at other tymes he most perfectly knew that it neyther could nor should escape him wherevnto may be added that at last when he so dolefully complayned that his God had forsaken him was hee now all this while but begining to be troubled and sad You would have mademe ashamed of it if I had had any such thought in my minde Wherfore the text is no way abused as you pretend in that after he began I shew froÌ„ these places that he grew to be mightily astonished grievously perplexed As for Ierom if he deny this I must crave leaue to dissent from him I bring you say “ Pag. 29â— a fardell of phrases to expresse his Agonie he was amazed astonished forgetfull distempered overwhelmed and all confounded in the powers of his soule and senses of his body Yea and I thinke all to little sufficieÌ„tly to expresse our Lords sufferings for vs. All those words which I vsed and many mo cannot shew all that vnspekeable vehemeÌ„cy of Sorrow which now cast him into such a plight So far of it is that * Pag. 28â— I do the Lord of glory wrong when I labour but to shew how he loved vs and to what basenes of our nature he submitted him self for our sake For al these are but meere effects of natures infirmitie if it be oppressed with any infinit sorrow feare Seeing then Christ might be and was nowe thus infinitly afflicted as we have shewed why should we feare to acknowledge extreame Effectes in him where we have extreame Causes Nay God forbid that we should reioyce in any thing so much neither can wee praise magnify him for any thing so highly as we may ought for this extreame abasing of Christe for vs. 〈◊〉 Pilip 2. â— Remember your owne wordes out of Austin that there is in som men Insipiens honorisicentia a fond intent of honoring Christ. If there be any such surely this is one point thereof which you maintaine Mr Calvin a worthy Minister of Christ â—alvin â—ath â—6 and a pillar of the Church is bolde and saith Fatemur certe hanc esse crucis stultitiam quae scandaloest superbis hominibus We consesse indeed such is the basenes and folly of Christes Crosse that proud men cannot away with it In another place where I shewed from the more to the lesse â—eat â— pa. 57 howe Christe might have for the suddain the powers of his minde astonished and yet no decay in him of faith nor of obedience nor of patience nor of loue like as there is not in a man benummed bound in his senses more then Christ was namely in a man a sleepe or amazed with a violent blow on the head For thus any reasonable man would haue conceaved me seeing who would imagine that I thought Christ now to be altogeather so without sense as one that sleepeth or that lyeth in a swoune Heerevpon you aske me skoffingly Pag. 299. a was Christ a sleepe or in a swoune b cast into a traunce Pag. 120. or c in a fit of a Lethargie But what I doe thinke of Christs Agonie I haue said before Pag. 121. Indeed as d you grant that Amazednes and Astonishment commeth naturally from sorrowes and feares and that Pag. 293. both in these causes and effects there be divers degrees so I thinke in Christ both the one and the other was in the extreamest and most violent degree that might be And therefore no marvaile though his AstonishmeÌ„t were far greater then is to be seene in any man ells that ever was or shal bee The Lorde made Solomon to excell all others in e wisedome 1. Chro. 1.12 and riches and treasures and honour so that there hath not ben the like among the Kings which were before him neither after him shall there bee the like Of Christ I iudge we may altogither as truly and as fully say that the Lord made him so subiect to infirmities to suffering of sorrows that there hath not ben the like among meÌ„ which were before him neither after him shall there be the like And yet none of those your former imputations are true Pag. 300. But f for my life I cannot answer this that followeth All that Christ suffered was and must be meritorious with God The suffering of Hell paines which astonish and confound all the powers of the Soule and senses of the Body neither was nor could be meritorious with God Therefore Christ suffered not such paines as did astonish and confound his bodily senses and powers of his Soule I deny your Assumption Not only all Christs paines were meritorious but even all his very infirmities also his wearines his hunger his sleepe and so his astonishment amazednes being in him but a meere natural weaknes and infirmity was exceeding meritorious in him and highly accepted with God Man hath his meere infirmities all agreeable to Gods will but Christ directly and properly glorified God in and by them more then can bee vttered I say in every point whatsoever of his Humane infirmity and basenes wherevnto hee humbled himselfe If it seeme a hard phrase which in my former Treatise I vsed saying Christ at this instant became forgetfull of that which before he knew my meaning is and so still I speake now he remembred not he considered not Which many times wee vse to name forgetting but indeed strictly and properly it is
turne them to ioy gladnes though not properly to be glad of them Nay we ought most instantly to pray against them No affliction at all is good in it owne nature and the greatest of all is good to Gods children by his grace So that touching this vse of them therein wee are to reioyce even when we are most bruized and pearced in our soules with the terrours of God Lastlie 〈◊〉 134. l you frame an obiection against your selfe which you neither doe nor can answer Christs soule might feele the tormentes of Hell for the time without any distrust or doubting of his salvation or our redemption You pretend thïs answer The essentiall tormentes of Hell are the absolute losse of Gods kingdom everlastingly and that m Eternall continuance is of the nature and substance of Hell But we shew you â— 53 although the damned are in Hell torments everlastingly and of necessitie so must bee yet eternall continuance in them and to feele them but for a time are indeed but Circumstances not of the essence or nature of Hell tormentes Gods proper and extreame wrath only and his sharpest vengeance for sinne is the essence or nature of Hell paines Which against the Damned indeed is eternall and vnsatisfyable but lighting on Christ it was not eternall because it was satisfyable Wherefore it is plaine that you have answered in effect nothing to your owne obiectioÌ„ Thus far we have gone shewing that we a Pag. 2 neither extende the cause of Christes Agonie to far in affirming it to have com of most bitter extreame Paines which he suffred properly for our sinns neither that we coÌ„tinue it to long in affirming that he felt the same most extreamely on the Crosse Contrariwise that you curtaile it to short when you say it was no more but b Pag. 1 290. Devotion to God and Compassion to men also that Christes Agonie touched him c Pa. 11â— not at all on the Crosse So that d Before 90.91.116 our Maine argument which you would haue frustrated standeth firme and good still that seeing his Agonies Paines and Feares were such so great as the Scripture by the effects signes sheweth that they were both before his death and at his death therefore they were more then meere bodily paines and more then meere bodily death much lesse were his Holy and Religious affections the proper and speciall Cause thereof But of necessity they were the Paines proceeding from the infinit and sharpe Iustice of God which Christ truly suffered in his Spirit and Soule and Body After this a Pag 3â— Touchiâ—â— Death oâ—â—â— Soule you set vehemently against my last argument That Christ suffered in some sorte the death of the Soule First if wee should speake strictly after the maner of Death in the Body then no man is so mad or foolish as to say that any mans Soul can dye at all that is want life and sense as a dead body doth Thus the very damned soules in Hell suffer not death But such a death as immortall soules are subiect subiect vnto is Gods separation froÌ„ them And this is 2. folde The 1. death and the 2. death as the Scripture speaketh The 1. is the separation of them from Gods grace which is in this life by sinne raigning in them The 2. death is Gods leaving them in the feeling of the most sharpe and most vehemeÌ„t paines inflicted by Gods iustice for sinne This last kind of death is so called and named in many places of b Ezek. Gen. 2â— Rom. 6â— 2. Cor. 3.7.5.20 aâ— 1. Ioh. 17. Scripture It hath also a double consideration First ordinarily and commonly it belongeth only to the Damned for their owne inherent sinne where withall are the ordinary Accidents and coÌ„comitants togeather Desperation induration blaspheming vtter darkenes c. with Perpetuitie of punishment and that locally in Hell In this sense the Fathers generally do take it where they deny that Christ suffered the death of the Soule and so likewise do we Secondly The death of the soule or the 2. death may be extraordinarily and singularly considered namely to imply no more but simply the very nature and essense of it 〈◊〉 Death the Soule â—â—rist tasted That is the feeling of most deadly infinit paines inflicted by God himselfe in his proper iustice for sinne all sense also of his comfortable presense being taken away This is a Death to the Soul â—â—g 113. â—ag 135. 6. â—ag 112. 3. as * before we have shewed according to this sense the Scriptures †Fathers before noted may rightly be vnderstood not to deny it in Christ so that this kind of Death in the soule but none other we may safely say Christ did suffer for our sinne imputed to him Moreover let it be observed that if wee had no proofes at all in Scripture for this point yet our Question is fully proved coÌ„firmed notwithstanding by those other sufficient pregnant proofes alleaged iustified before For it is be to noted that no man setteth the questioÌ„ in these termes That Christ dyed in his soule neither doe we at all vse them very much in speaking of this matter We do only when some speciall occasion draweth it from vs neither then do we vtter it in those termes but with vsing some further declaration of our minde The reason of this warynes is because we are not ignorant how ambiguous the phrase is and how apt to be mistaken specially where men list to cavill Also people vntaught and vnsetled in construing the scriptures sense do quickly take offense at thinges which they ought better to digest So that you doe very iniuriously to grate still one this phrase of speach and to straine it to the worst as you do as if by no meanes it could beare any good sense and as if we built our maine Assertion onely heerevpon Which in truth is nothing so The same also doe we affirme touching our vsing in this matter the phrase of Christs suffering Hell paines Both these phrases are but seldome and respectively vsed by vs. Howbeit we deny not but that both these phrases may be well and rightly applyed vnto Christ on occasion â—â—g 16. 52. â—â— 113. as * before is observed may both serve truly and most emphatically to expresse the infinitnes of the paines and sorrowes of his suffering for vs. Yea this very phrase of death extended in Christ further then to his meere bodily dying hath I doubt not expresse ground in the Scripture and therefore may the better be vsed soberly admitted charitably You will aske where is there any scripture Proofes that Christe suffered any other death then that meerely of his body I answer First consider well that to the c Hebr. â—ebr 5.7 Hee offered vp prayers and supplications with strong crying teares to him that was able to save him from death It is not possible that this Death heere should be
his meere bodily Death which he so wofully and impotently feared as I haue before sufficiently coÌ„firmed Therefore it was the death of the soule the 2. Death which heere is vnderstood to have thus mightily afflicted Christ Which also your own selfe do d Pag. â—â— fully grant and affirme with me Yea you affirme further then we doe or then the truth is or possibly can be You say Christ heere thus feared Eternall death and Everlasting damnation What a speach is this Christ could not possibly feare in such wofull maner that which he perfitly knew should never come neere him But he perfitly knew that eternall Death and the Cup of Gods everlasting malediction should never touch him He knew and saw that this by Gods almighty and vnchangeable Decree was set further from him then the East is from the West yea then Hell is from HeaveÌ„ Therefore he could not by any meanes possibly feare eternall death nor pray in such sort against it Againe that which he feared and so pitifully prayed against was that which he knew was by God e Iohn 12 ordayned for him Yea Feare alwayes is of that which is to come But Eternall death was not by God ordayned for him that was “ Which Christ 〈◊〉 right wâ— not to come vnto him Therfore it was not Eternall death which he so feared Finally when in the Garden he prayed against that Cup which he feared that it might passe from him there he yeeldeth and submitteth himselfe presently to the vndergoing of it But it were I know not what to say that Christ did ever yeeld and submit himselfe to vndergo Eternall death or to tast the Cup of Gods everlasting malediction Therefore it was not this that he feared heere prayed against And yet it was I grant the Death of the Soule or the 2. Death that is simply the essense thereof Gods withdrawing himselfe from him in the Paines and torments thereof This onely it was He suffer that deatâ— which he feared not the eternity thereof nor sinfull concomitants which he thus feared And this for the infinitnes of it naturally he could not but feare yea and that so extreamely also he feared f â—ôzein for him selfe as knowing it to be ordayned for him So that hence it followeth invincibly that Christ in deed suffered sith he thus feared more then the meere bodily Death even the Death of the soule For he could not I say thus * Much yeeld to iâ— he did sâ—â—ing Thy â—â—â—don feare but he must needs know that it was to come or might com vnto him â—wed furâ—â— before 131.132 if he but knew that it might come then it * certainly did come vnto him at one time or other in his Passion before heâ— left the world See to the Hebr. g Christ abolished through death him that had the power of death that is the Divell and so delivered all them which for feare of death were all their life time subiect to bondage â—â—b 2.14 Heere I see no reason in the world but that the Apostle by â—his often repeating of death and by mutuall referring of it in one place as it were to the other doth vnderstand signifie one and the same death altogeather But it is the death of the Soule which the Divell hath the power and execution of also the death of the soule chiefly sinful men were held in feare of all their life long It followeth then I suppose that even through this death of the Soule Christ abolished the Divell and deliveted his children Specially seeing there is no enormity nor impossibilitie heerein Against this you haue no reason at all but wordes and wrestings and vaine ostentation of Fathers none of them all denying our sense Third it seemeth also that Peter teacheth this same Pet. 3.18 saying k Christ in his suffering was don to death in the Flesh but made alive by the Spirit Where Death may be very well referred both to the Soule and Body of Christ Because the text heere speaketh as I iudge of the whole and entire sufferings of Christ And it is manifest by that before that Christ did suffer not in his body only but properly and immediatly also in his Soule we haue seene also that the * phrase of Death 〈◊〉 135.136 or Dying may in a good sense be applyed even to Christes Soule Againe this word Flesh it seemeth can not heere in this place be vnderstood to signifie onely the Body of Christ but even both partes of his Humane nature thar is the reasonable Soule and the body My reason is because wheresoever in scripture the Flesh and the Spirit are noted oppositly togeather in Christ â—â—m 1.3 4. â—im 3.16 â—oh 4.2 〈◊〉 1.14 â—or 5.7 â—4 1.4.1 â—â—g 320. there the i Flesh signifieth alwayes his whole Humanity even both partes thereof the Soule also not the Body only the Spirit signifieth his Deity or Divine power Now what have you against this Nothing of waight but floutes and mockes that k this observation is made out of the hinder partâ— of my head c. But what pretend you against it Some Scripture palpably abused First Mathew where Christ speaketh of his Disciples that their Spirit their inward regenerat man was ready to watch â—ath 26. but their Flesh their corrupt nature was weak sluggish What is this to Christes Flesh and Spirit Thinke you that Christs Soule was willing to suffer as God had appointed but that his Flesh resisted Verily so you seeme heere to vnderstand An vntrâ—â— conceit and it is as likely as your applying of Flesh and Spirit to Christ in your pag. 104. Then a Luk. 2. Luke where both Spirit and Flesh are not intended of Christ as our observation before requireth but only the Flesh Then the Romanes where I affirme that b Rom. Flesh signifieth the whole Manhood of Christ according to the which he came from David even as well as SalomoÌ„ or Nathan did who were Davids sonnes in their entire and perfit nature So likewise Christe was kinne to the Iewes according to his c Rom. 9 whole Humanitie aswel as d ver 3. Paul was And heere Paul meaneth him selfe to be kinne to them according to Nature wholly that only by Regeneration in the Gospell he was differing from them Now Nature opposed to Grace and regeneration hath reference both to Soule and Body in a man Howsoever the Soule cometh in Generation that is not heere considered neither is it necessarily to the purpose Which difficulty also your selfe haue vtterly * Pag. 2â— renouÌ„ced before to make it any argument for you in this matter Thus yet the Flesh and the Spirit thus opposed heere in Christ shall signifie the whole Manhood and Godhead in him Further that which e Pa. 32 you bring out of the f 2. Corâ— Corinthians compared with this in Peter doeth most fitlie and clearely open and confirme the
same Hee was crucified touching his infirmitie but liveth by the power of God His infirmitie the text heere nameth Metonimically vnderstanding in Christ that in which his infirmities were Now his Soule had infirmities of suffering in it as well as his body Therefore his Soule also is vnderstood heere that it was Crucifyed and dyed that is according to the condicion thereof as likewise his body according to the condicion thereof And thus that which Paul calleth infirmitie Peter calleth Flesh and that which Paul calleth the power of God Peter calleth the Spirit That is his Deitie is set oppositly in both these places to his whole Humanitie even to body and soule Aug. de 4.13 To which purpose that place also to the “ Rom. Romanes doth serve where the like opposition is found as I have shewed betwene the Flesh and the Spirit in Christ that is his Manhood and Godhead Other reasons also * Treat 137 1â— I haue noted serving well heerevnto as the 4 5 and 6. but I omit to rehearse them againe For it seemeth your selfe agreeth with vs in them â—â—g 324. holding a expresly that the Spirit heere in Peter is the Deitie of Christ according to Austins iudgement Now this being granted and acknowledged that the Spirit heere signifieth Christes Godhead how can it be likely but that the other opposit part the Flesh must needes import his whole and intire Manhood Verily thus it seemeth most plaine that Peter heere distributeth the whole and absolute person both God and Man into these Natures the Flesh and the Spirit Wherfore I can not thinke but that the Apostle heere vnderstandeth by Flesh the whole and intire Manhood of Christ even his Soule and his body Now this being so then it followeth by the text that Christ in his Passion was don to death both in Soule Pag. 320. body Heere you obiect that thus I make all the attributes of the body common to the Soule Nay forsooth that I doe not Nor yet this attribute of Dying vnderstood in such sort and maner as the Body properly dyeth that is to become without life and sense I ascribe Death to both but yet according to the divers condicion and state of both â—reat 1. Pâ—g 78. And thus you might vnderstand my b meaning to be where I say it is absurd false that Christ was made aliue in his Humane Soule that is it neither lost nor recovered life and sense so as his body did â—â—â—e before 〈◊〉 135 136 Howbeit as Death is oftentymes attributed to mens soules in the c Scripture that is the feeling of the extreame wrath of God and the punishment for sinne so d I make Death commoÌ„ both to Christes Soule and body â—â—eat 1. â—â—g 79. even to his whole and intire humane Nature Which if you do not acknowledge the shame of ab surditirie and coÌ„trarietie which in your fancy e you accuse me of that Christes Soule dyed and dyed not â—â—g 322. â—â—3 will sit neerer to you theÌ„ to me Also in such a sense I deny not but Christ may be said that he was quickened in the Spirit that is refreshed and comforted againe in his Soule and restored from that bottomles gulfe of sorrowes to the lively feeling of heavenly ioyes and glory which for a season he had no sense of at all Howbeit though this sense bee a true quickening in his Soule yet I deny that heere in this place of Peter it can be translated quickened in the Spirit meaning the Soule because Spirit heere in this opposition is set indeed for the Deitie of Christ â—â—â—d you with â—â—â—stin doe â—â—sent * as before I have shewed Thus the matter I hope is cleere to reasonable men that Christes Soule even according to the Scripture phrase may be said in some sorte to have tasted and suffered Death that is the extreamest feelings of Gods wrath for sinne and the most vehement paines of the damned though not as the damned doe in respect of the Accidents and concomitants of their ordinary damnation but in a singular maner and extraordinarie way as became the sonne of God and a sinles man yet a very maÌ„ being our Redeemer Now besides the matter you “ Pag. 3 gird at me in divers places as where I say The Death of the Soule is such Paines and sufferings of Gods wrath as allwayes accompanie them that are separated from the grace and love of God Forfooth it is true they are alwayes wicked whom these Paines doe accompanie ordinarily They came vpon Christ extraordinarilie as in a Treat â— pag. 77. this place I expresly noted That was therfore my meaning here if you would haue seene it In another place also b Pag. 33. you know that I say Hell as I take it that is such paines of Gods wrath is * Treat 1 pag. 80. sometime found in this life Thus then you might haue vnderstood my former wordes and not that the tormentes of Hell doe alwayes accompanie the wicked in this life I pray conceave not my meaning against my expresse wordes Againe c Pag 31â— you pretende to haue much against me where I say The feeling of the sorrowes of Gods wrath due to sinne in a broken and contrite heart is indeed the only true and perfitly accepted sacrifice to God True so I said and againe I say it What see you amisse in it Then vnhappy men are the godly which are at any time free from the paines of the damned To what purpose is this I speake of Christs Sacrifice I pray is any other Sacrifice perfitly accepted or a Sacrifice at all but Secondarily that is in and by Christes Sacrifice They are not His Sacrifice then is the onely true Sacrifice and perfitly accepted to God All others are imperfit and accepted not in them selues but only in and by Christ Thus your triumphes before the victorie come to nothing but blastes of vanitie But Augustin †Pag. 32 doth flatly deny that this text can be thus vnderstood or that Christes Soule might dy Austin d Epist 9â— denyeth that Christ suffied any paines of damnation locally in Hell after his death as it seemeth some helde about his time whoÌ„ here he laboureth to confute So that he meaneth to reprove onely the e See besâ—â—â— pag 139 1st sense of the Death of the Soule in him viz. that he suffred it not Ordinarily after the maner of other men nor any way locally Hâ— hath no nâ—cessarie cause to speak of the 2. sense thereof how the Soule may be said to suffer death Extraordinarily for sinne imputed only neither doeth he speake against that in Christ Nay according to Austins owne Definition of the Soules Dying it will easily appeare that Christes Soule may be said to have suffered some kinde of Death de verh 〈◊〉 Ser â—0 〈◊〉 Trin. 4. Saith he a Moritur anima si recedit Deus and b Mors est spiritûs deseri Ã
effect they are all one with Thanatos Death but that Thanatos belongeth properly to Bodyes Hades Sheol sometimes to Bodyes sometime to Soules of Men indifferently Yea sometime these 2. are applyed though more rarely to other things also which are in this visible world namely wheÌ„ they com to Destruction and No being any more as anon we shall better vnderstande Now let vs proceed and shew further even by the Scriptures first that Sheol and Hades are as I say more then once vsed for the generall condition of death wherein even iust mens soules are held or the mansion of soules departed aswell good as bad Then afterward the common consent of others will availe the more That a Psalm 4â— Psalme which intreateth wholy of Death of the impossibility to escape it of the power which it hath over the wicked whose ioy and pompe is only in this world in that it cutteth of all their hopes it endeth their pleasure and marreth all their bewty I say in this Psalme where all expresse circumstances do shew that the Prophet speaketh of this death not of Hell yet David heere saith * verse 1â— notwithstanding God shall deliver my soule from the power of Sheol that is death or the state of death when hee shall reoeave mee most mightily So Tremelius turneth it noting heere Davids hope of the Resurrection which I think he hath well vnderstood in this place Otherwise David might heere comfort himselfe in this that hee knew God would save him alive from this common death not alwayes as you friuolously obiect but oftentimes yea alwayes till he should enioy the Kingdome which indeed God did for him when he was neere death not seldome and when his enemies the wicked were caught therewith Againe that b Psal 8â— Psalme sheweth it also where it is thus written My Soule is filled with sorrowes and my life draweth neere to Sheol By his life he meaneth his soule the proper cause and fountayne of life in him which also in the first parte of the sentence hee expresly named As the manner of phrase in the Psalmes is in the 2. parte of the sentence commonly to speake of the same things that are vttered in the former but varying the termes That life heere should signifie the body distinctly from the soule there is no such likelyhood nor reason Indeed I deny not but life may signifie heere the whole person of man As in these â—esaide Psal â— 48. 49 â— 10 16. al â—116 8. in â—â—y many â—aces of scripâ—â—e besides and so may c nephesh the soule also very wel and then Sheol and Hades signifie not peculiarly and distinctly the Grave which only is for the carcase but the condition of the Whole maÌ„ after he hath no being in this world In which regard chose what sense you will either that nephesh and chai shall in all these places of the Psalmes before handled signifie strictly the soul as very fitly it may or the whole person of man consisting both of a soule and of a living body contrary to which estate Sheol and Hades is very often taken g That is if it â—re not strictly â—â—d peculiarly â—â—e habitation â—sâ—y Souls yet â—â—s the condiâ—ur of the whole â—son that is â—â—â—h of Soul â—â—dy separaâ—â— by Death â—ob 30.23 and d peradventure so it is vnderstood heere in these places In which sense Sheol Hades are far from signifying hell yea or heaven either yea or only and meerely the Grave but it signifieth destruction from out of this world no-being here any more as afore time to the whole person that is both to the Soule and to the Body And thus Sheol and Hades Iob resembleth to a house or Habitation where he nameth it †Beth mâ—gned lecol chai the habitation after this world appointed for every person or if you will for all living things The same also Iob wisheth and desireth of God to himselfe that God would hide him Bisheol in this world of the deceased â—ob 14.13 would give him terme till his wrath was overpast In another place he comforteth himselfe thinking quickly to enioye it saying †Jf I have any hope Sheol or Hades â—ob 17.13 the world of the deceased shal be my habitation He ioyneth therevnto also particularly the grave but as touching Sheol seeng Iob speaketh of it as his continuall habitation till the worldes end it cannot be meant only of the Grave for his body which indured but a very short time neither had his flesh any being at all after it was turned to very earth and wormes He speaketh heere therefore also of his soules continuing habitatioÌ„ or mansion in another world Gen. 37.35 because they â—â—ch dy their â—â—ons do fall â—â—vne according to the Latin â—â—tase cadere â—â—idere occuÌ„â—â— to Dy. And in greatest reason this is that which Iaacob meaneth when he saith He will goe downe mourning to his sonne iâ— Sheol That is He will mourne till he dy for this he meaneth by * going downe heere speaking of death And then he hopeth to enioye the societie of his deare sonne in soule For his body hee thought was devoured and digested in the bellies of wilde beasts therefore he would goe to the soule of his sonne in Sheol Or els vnderstanding heere the dissolution passage of his Whole person he may meane partly his going downe to the graue as touching his body and yet also the enioying of the societie of his deare sonne in Sheol which surely as J said could not bee in body but in soule Thus Sheol heere hath respect to the changed estate of Iacobs whole person dissolved and not to one parte thereof only his body but to his soule also and it hath respect likewise to the estate of his dead sonnes soule where this loving Father hoped againe to haue society with him not any where els without which he could not be comforted Albeit in another place it seemes hee limiteth Sheol to the graue only but that we doe so vnderstand by reason of the Circumstances a Gen. 42. you will bring my Gray Head with sorrow to the Grave But againe to follow our purpose Good Hezekiah also looked for Sheol to be his habitation likewise after this life I said saith “ Isay 38. â—â— 11 12. he I shall goe to the gates of Sheol the Land of the dead I shall not see the Lord in the Land of the living I shall see Man no more among the inhabitaÌ„ts of the world My habitation or Mansion is translated and removed from me as a sheapheards tent c. This heere cannot be the Grave nor Hell which he describeth For he thought he should theÌ„ have dyed and thus his habitation he thought should haue ben removed and translated from him that is I take it his body should be remoued from his soule which was the mansion or habitation of his soule while he lived but now he should
f you obiect but consenteth with Irenaeus before and with others after him as shall appeare 〈◊〉 Innius 〈◊〉 on this chap. 188. who were no Montanists Notwithstanding it is true that somewhere he taketh inferos pro locali determinatione as he speaketh for the peculiar and determinat place of the wicked deceased that is Hell strictly and properly 〈◊〉 4. Thus he doth in that g against Marcion wth you cite pag. 201. Also in that h obiection of certaine Haeretikes whom hee confuteth 〈◊〉 anima 55. not the true Christians as i you k misconceave They argued thus as you do in hoc Christus Jnfiros adiit ne nos adiremus 188. 〈◊〉 title of â—ooke in â—â—â—elius â—â—â—s editioÌ„ Christ therefore went to Hell to the ende that wee might never come there He aunswereth them that it is false that Christe went to Jnferos in that sense that is to Hell for then what difference is there betweene the wicked Heathens and the godly Christians if one the same prison after death were for them both Taking it for a thing generally granted in the church that Christ being dead went onely thither where the godly Dead were and therefore that it were a wicked and Haereticall thing to thinke he went where the Damned were that is into Hell And so he quite overthroweth your opinion togeather with the reason thereof as an opinion whiche if any helde they were ill thought of in those dayes 〈◊〉 99. De â—â—â—es ad lit 〈◊〉 33. Thus also is Augustin well l vnderstood where he denyeth that the Patriarkes were apud inferos in Hell namely the place of the Damned because they were in Abrahaâ—s bosom Which yet b Epist 5â— De civi â— 20.15 elswhere he graunteth vnto that they might be apud inferos in the world of the Dead namely where the Godly dead should be So that thus if you had but distinguished these and other Fathers like words as you ought to haue done there needed no such folly of Contradiction to be imputed vnto them as c Pag. 18â— 200. 204 you doe lay to their charge in this point altogeather vndeservedly Which being well observed you shall see that all the Fathers as Mr Iunius saith both Greeke Latin do take Hades and inferos d Promisâ—â— indiffereÌ„tly for the state of the Dead as wel pertayning to that Soules of the Godly as to the Damned likewise Athanasius also saying e Athanas incar Châ—â—â— vbi tenebatur anima humana in morte ibi exhibuit humanam suam animam Where Humane Soules were held by Death there he brought his humane Soule Meaneth nothing els but that his humane Soule came vnder the same condicion of death as other mens Soules did not that he went to the place of the DaÌ„ned Neiter must he be vnderstood after f Pag. 179 186. 214. your partiall translatioÌ„ but after his owne language the Greek When you say ex Orco out of Hell him selfe saith exhadou out of the power of Death So that g De saluâ—â— vent Châ—â—â— hee saith not a word that Christ was in Hell but onely that his Soule was in Hades in the Dominion of Death as h Ad noâ—â—â— similitudâ— other good mens Soules were also whence he by his victorious returne conquering Death i De salut advent Câ—â—â—stâ— brought vs immortalitie and wrought resurrection for vs. Heere Hades being ennemy and opposit to the Immortalitie and Resurrection of mens persons cannot by any meanes be Hell For Hell agreeth with Immortalitie and Resurrection in Hell shal be immortalitie and resurrection as well as in HeaveÌ„ But it is the common Death and dissolution of our persons which is contrarie to the immortalitie and resurrection of them For as Resurrection is nothing els but a restoring and revniting of the Soule to the Body so the contrarie is nothing els but meerely the dissolution and separation of the Soule from the Body which is Death and not Hell Now in this death saieth Athanasius Christ was held till he spoyled and conquered it thereby giving vs resurrection and immortalitie This can not be Hell out of questioÌ„ Hilarius verily hath this meaning also saying k Hilar. â— Psal 13â— This is the Law of humane necessitie that their bodyes goe down to the Grave their Soules to the world of the Dead ad inferos Which descent the Lorde did not refuse that he might prove him selfe in every point to bee a true man His going to Hell proveth him not to be a true man but his Soul to com vnder the power of Death as well as his body to com to the Grave 〈◊〉 koinoâ—â—â—â—ôpos â—â—â—em morâ—â—â— servaâ—â— that right well proveth him in deed to have bene a true man and wholy in nature like all other men Also this was indeed the Lawe of humane necessitie after the like phrase as a Iustin â—â—â—gi satisfaâ—â—â— forma huâ—â—â— mortis â—â—â—us â—ag 157. â—efore 〈◊〉 Death â—â—es aâ—e vâ—â—â—or the same b Irenaeus and c Tertullian also speake but not to goe to Hell Now this Death properly beloÌ„geth to the Body of Men d as it is left without life Also no lesse properly it beloÌ„geth to the whole Person of men as it is dissolved and destroyed thereby Thirdly by consequence it beloÌ„geth to both the dissolved partes yea even to the immortall Soule though blessed not as it is in blessednes but as it remayneth held from the Body by the force of Death And so all these last named are very excellent places to prove which afterward I shall further shew that all those articles of the Creed He Dyed was Buryed and descended to Hades do indeed signifie but one thing in effect that he was a true man seeing thus it befell him as it doeth all other men by the Law of our Nature that is to Dye And therefore that it was cleane left out in all ancient Creedes where both those other clauses are specified as being no divers point in effect from Dead and Buryed Which Creedes nevertheles are worthily deemed to be absolute and perfit touching Christes workes of Redemption which hee hath wrought for vs. Since perhaps when it came into the Common Creed they signified heereby Christes going to Limbus Which opinion indeed men generally inclined vnto though erroneously for many yeares yet that the Ancients put this Descending to hades meaning Limbus or howsoever into the vulgar Creed distinctly from both the other foresaid clauses I beleue not The contrary is proved afterwardes as anon we shall see But to proceed heere â—â—rys Hom. â—ivit de 〈◊〉 bol Tom. in 1. Cor. Hom. 40. â—â—â—asil in 〈◊〉 48. â—â—â—mbr de 〈◊〉 mort 〈◊〉 10. â—â—â—rom in 〈◊〉 1â— 14 â—â—â—uffin in â—â—â—bol 〈◊〉 413.414 c Chrysostom and d Basill likewise with the rest of the Greeks may be noted how they yeeld Hades to the Soules of the godly and iust men deceased remayning in ioyes Also Ambrose
do nor vnderstand in them any of their fancyes and errors which by their doctrine otherwise they refute nevertheles they may and do vnderstand the generall truth signified in them whatsoever the Heathens vsed by them to signifie and imply And thus is our worde in controversy Hades cleered But to cleere the rest also of those which b Pag. 36â— you obiect Sec we are to observe that the Apostles transfer the Heathens Civill words many times to their Ecclesiasticall vse namely keeping yet still the proportion of their former sense As in these Apostle Bishop Deacon Gospell Law Sinne Repenâ—ance Hope Conscience Concupisence c. Which change is small and easy sith the words have a iust proportion still togeather both in Civill and Ecclesiasticall vse Onely if any difference or oddes be it is expresly vttered in some part of the Apostles doctrine besides There is no such cause nor matter of difference to be found in Hades Third The Apostles do vse some wordes kat ' éxochen by an excellencie yet in no point altering the native vse or property of them â—â—â—a all the 〈◊〉 before â—â—â—med or â—â—â—t oâ— them 〈◊〉 â—e conâ—â—â—ed also â—â—â—er this â—â—â—e â—ag 403. a Thus Scripture is vsed commonly for the Word of God only Diábolos for the Divell although sometimes other writings are called also Scripture and other Accusers and slanderers Diaboloi But neither hath this consideration any place in Hades that in Scripture it should signifie chiefly Hell much lesse only Which thing b you avouch Lastly Som think the Apostles altered the worde Faith from the Passive sense of it importing Faithfulnes and honestie as the Heathens commonly vsed it to the Active sense which is True beliefe or Trust vsed in the Scriptures which you also obiect But I suppose the Apostles tooke this Active sense of the word Faith froÌ„ the Old Testament meerely translating the Hebrue into Greeke For I see not what difference at all there is betweene c Pistis â—â—â—om 1.17 â—â—â—bac 2.4 and d Emunah whereby the Iewes signified Faith to salvation Which is reason enough for this vse thereof in Greeke by the Apostles namely if it bee a Hebraisme though it bee not very suteable to the Heathens vse thereof The like I iudge of Elder Law Sinne c. But Hadès for Hell hath no like reason Further I think even the Heathens have vsed this word Faith sometime Actively as the Gospell vsually hath it likewise the Gospel abhorreth not altogeather the Passive vse of it for Faithfulnes Lastly if it were so that the Apostles did follow no other reason but meerely transferred that word from the Civill passive to the Ecclesiasticall active vse we say on necessity they might do it For having some Spirituall doctrine to deliver and the ordinary speach wanting some fit word for the same then they might yea of necessity they were forced to take some word neerest in nature and sense to their purpose so they might give to that word a peculiar Ecclesiasticall vse further then anciently it had But Hades for Hell hath no help by this reason they tooke the word Gehenna from the Hebrewes and vsed it properly for Hell Therefore they need not alter hades for that purpose for which they had another proper word It is manefest then that the Apostles stil kept the proportion of the sense in all their words translated from the common and vsuall speach of the Heathen so far as any reason of truth might be alike in both so they spake indeed still the tounge and language of the Nations and therefore Hades with the Apostles can not be properly Hell as even with Heathens also properly it was never I suppose yet you will say The Fathers take Hades for Hell I answered a Pa. 1 before how they sometime take it determinatly and strictly so they signifie Hell by it Somtime they take it largely generally according to the Ancient Heathens vse and so they signifie by it nothing but the generall state of Death pertayning alike both to good and bad deceased as I have declared Thus you get nothing by them albeit sometime theâ— restraine the worde Hades more then they ought to restraine it Heere also were place to have added somwhat for iustifying that I said The Fathers do alter the ancient true vse of som words both Greeke and Latin from whom in controversies we ought to appeale to their authentike vse in Scripture and Classicall authors But because b Pag. 3â— you send me about ChirotonÃa to another place I am content to examine what you have there to the contrary Which seeing it draweth me into further matter therevnto appertaining I will differre for this time Hitherto we have tryed the nature and vse of Hades and have found it to be not properly Hell as c Pag. 1â— 171. 40 you avouch No not when it is applyed to soules of men deceased And therefore also that it can not be so vnderstood in Act. 2.27 where it is applyed to Christs Soule after he was dead Which yet is the only place that you have to pretend How thâ—â— in Act. â— may siâ—â—â— and trâ—â—â— vndersâ—â—â— Now something more you bring for your purpose from the Circumstances of this Text which we must consider But first let vs simply and plainly vnderstaÌ„d the same according to our former true declaration of the nature and vse of Hades Where the text is Thou wilt not leaue my Soule in Hades or to Hades we may simply take Hades for the invisible state or place of the deceased And so supplying the defect of a word which must be vnderstood thus we may say eis ton topon or chôran hadou in the place or region of the invisible state or b Aithér dou Or before pâ—â—â— 173.17 World of the Deceased Otherwise we may take it simply for Deaths force strength and power supplying also the same words eis ton topon or ten chôran hadou in that place where the power and strength of Death prevaileth and holdeth the deceased Soules from their Bodyes This is the World of the Dead implying nothing ells but ap estate opposit to our Visible estate in this world Thus may hades be fuly taken sith I have largely proved before how Hades Thanatoâ— Death are in effect all one and may both be applyed even to iust mens Soules deceased but hades more easily naturally Last of all we may take hades heere by a Prosopopoea conceaving it to be as it were som Person of vnresistable power taking away withholding from hence al mens Souls departed Howbeit this power was controlled and loosed by God in Christes Resurrection And then we may construe it thus eis ten chóran topon or oikian Hadou in the place region or habitation of this mighty power Or eis to kratos exousian dynamin or epikratian tou Hadou to the strength power or dominion of this Destroyer of life Thus howsoever we take it though
this last way is not the vnlikelyest Hades heere signifieth in effect nothing els but Death that Christs Soul departed this life was held therein but could not be holden fast â—â—g 166. You obiect c We must not make a Figurative sense but where manefest need is Heere is no need of a figurative sense Therefore heere ought to be no Figure supposed I answer First wee grant your Conclusion whether of the 2. former wayes soever that we take hades so there is simply no Figure at all therein Sec Then your own sense of Hell in this place is cleane overthrown by your selfe For whensoever hades and sheol do signifie Hell it is indeed by a Figure namely Synékdoche where the Whole is set for a part Which I have proved at large before â—â—re pag. particularly by d Tremellius a sufficient man for his Hebrue skill Wherefore by this reason Hell cannot possibly be meant heere if no Figure be admitted Third it seemeth convenient and also likely to take hades heere by a Prosopopoea after our 3. sense before noted Which kind of Figure supposeth as it were a Person of that thing which otherwise a word properly signifieth So that by this figure nothing of the wordes native signification is diminished Thus our word hades is vsed in the Corinthians O Hades where is thy victory Also as it may seeme in the Revelation Death Hades were cast into Hell â—â—ther as pa. 17â— Thus then it is nothing but emphatically signifying the power of Death Fourth Admit that hades and sheol did properly signifie Hell as we see they do not Likewise that sometime they signifie only the Grave which also you acknowledg it is true when it is applyed to a dead Body Againe admit that nephesh by a Figure may signifie the whole Person yea e the dead Body somtimes 〈◊〉 doth 〈◊〉 21.1 〈◊〉 2â— 4 Then I affirme that heere in this place of necessity there ought to be vnderstood a Figurative sense Heere is plainly most necessary cause For take them thus literally as you doe and they impugne the groundes of faith and charitie Which f Pag 1â— you grant that rightly is sufficient to cause a Figurative sense in Scripture But how do they impugne faith or charity being taken as you take them Verily thus Your sense implyeth by the way and consequently Points in Assertion â—â—â—trary to â—â—â—coÌ„mon â—â—oâ— Faith 〈◊〉 charity that a good and sinles man yea the best that ever was worthy of Paradise and the highest Heavens yet after death did go to Hell And further that being in Heaven yet he stayed not there as you say but immediatly came out againe to go into Hell Againe that a Humane soule being in the depth of Hell yet should feele no paines and that being locally in hell it should com out thence also What can be more against the generall rules of the Scripture then these things Yea how doth this impugne our generall charity towards all the iust when they dy Besides many other disproportions and vnreasonable inconveniences following withall as anon we shall further see Wherefore if by any meames possibly a Figure may be heere admitted certainly it must be so for these most necessary causes last rehearsed The rather seeing no other text any where insinuateth any such peculiar matter in Christ that he should differ in these points from all good men els as you do vrge But you say The Cirâ—â—stances 〈◊〉 against yâ—â— the circumstances heere doe prove that the word must be Hell properly taken That I would faine see What are these circumstances First this place sheweth * Pag. 1â— a special prerogative verified in none but in Christ I deny it heere is no such prerogative mentioned Except this that whereas some other men after death have returned to life againe it was not by their owne power as Christs ResurrectioÌ„ was Againe God in his revealed wil having signified by his Prophet long before that he should be restored speedily to life againe thus it was simply impossible that Christ should be holden fast by the power of Death although it had got hold of him And so indeed he had a prerogative before all men ells which also is heere shewed vs but no other prerogative in the world neither heere nor any where els caÌ„ be gathered touching his returne from Hell You adde No flesh dead was ever free from corruption but only Christes What then Ergo his Soule was in Hell Or ells why bring you such needles and impertinent matter Besides I iudge that not to be true Were not a Pag. 1â— some being dead raised to life againe before their flesh putrified But nonâ— you say in the sepulchre And what then How will this inferre or prove that so none but Christs Soul was ever supported in Hel or that it was ever there These are simple reasons for so great a conclusion Then you say Jf by Hell we vnderstand Paradise it was no privilege to be there not forsaken but rather a childish absurdity to thinke any Soule might be there forsaken It is a strange absurdity still to abuse your reader calling this word Hel â—â—tio prinâ—◠〈◊〉 which indeed is nothing but Death in effect the Power of death or the condition and state of death Againe to presume that wee take it for Paradise or Heaven or Hell at any time when we referre it allwayes to the generall state of the Dead and no further immediatly Now in this Christ had cause to reioyce that neither his Soule nor Body was left but so soone raysed vp to perfit life againe and so sitted to a full receaving of glory which within few dayes after he had Also besides this cause his deliverance from the condition of death he had an other inestimable cause to reioyce that he was raised to life againe namely that he might fulfill his whole work for our Salvation which before his Resurrection Ascension c he could not accomplish â—â—g 170. Further b you obiect that Peter maketh mention that the sorrows of death were broken that they should not hold Christ nor hinder him from rising againe But there were none such in the Grave none in Paradise Therfore in Hel Christs Soule was whence he was delivered when he rose againe I denie vtterly this sequele Because the text saith not that there were any present sorrowes in Hades where Christ was Heere is not a word to any such purpose 〈◊〉 2.24 What saith the text God raised him vp loosing the sorrowes of Death because it was impossible for him to bee holden fast of it Wil you coÌ„clude froÌ„ hence Ergo there were present sorrows in that place where Christ was There is no strength in this reason The Apostle signifieth heere 2. or 3. things 1. That God loosed Death froÌ„ him wherein hee was held but could not be holden fast 2. That this Death had bene a most sorrowfull painfull Death
h Through death Christ destroyed him that had the power of death that is the Divell Pag. 179. Whereby i it is evident that Hell is spoyled of all right and claime to the members of Christ hee brake c. I hope in this life the godly are the members of Christ then in this life they are fully freed from Hell for euer Wherfore it is very vntrue that Hell properly taken hath any possession of the iust and handfast or power on them or that Hell is not fully subdued for them vntill the Resurrection I graunt that the common death heere is called an enemy Cor. 15.26 but he meaneth not such an Enemy as Hell is especially as this is spoken touchinge the godly Yet it is an Enemie even to them not as any Curse at all but as a Memoriall consequent of the old Curse like as a scarie is where was a deadly wound also as a peaceable and quiet stopp or stay vnto them â—â—ea because 〈◊〉 is painâ—ull â—o the flesh in 〈◊〉 his life that their whole persons cannot yet enioy their appointed felicitie Howbeit for all this toward them it hath not the least affinitie with Hell at all Therfore Hades heere in no sort signifyeth Hell but only Death or the power of Death or the world and kingdom of Death or something to that effect onely Yea the very text seemeth thus to expound it selfe saying Where is thy sting O Hades The sting of Death is sinne Where the later seemeth a very direct answer and exposition of the former words Thus The sting of Death or Hades is sinne noting these 2. wordes Hades and Death as Synonimaes for one thing beeing applyed to men Or if “ Pag. 408. you will haue them to differ He may take Hades for the * As it vtterly â—aketh away 〈◊〉 witholdeth â—rom a visible â—â—ate Power strength of Death which the brain-sick Idolators made a God or the Dominion and Kingdome of Death These respectes Hades might well haue with the Apostle which differ from Thanatos Death the meere separation of the Soule from the Body which yet in effect are all one and haue no difference touching our purpose Like as we saw a Pa. 1â— c. 1 before howe all Authours have vsed them Further The Grave of the Wicked is not to be nâ—med nor reckoned Hell properly nor any part thereof In Hell there wanteth not sense of paine If you say it is an entrance to hell and that which holdeth and reserveth the wicked vnto hell Yet then it is not Hell for even thus the Grave and Hell doe greatly differ Finally Hades is b See 〈◊〉 pag. 1â— adversarie to the Resurrection But Hell would not bee adversarie to the Resurrection Therefore Hades heere is not hell no not to the wicked Death in deed and the Dominion of Death is an adversarie to the Resurrection and at that day it shal be vanquished and vtterly abolished when all flesh shall liue againe As for Hell that shall increase theÌ„ and bee advanced when all the wicked both bodyes and Soules shal be subdued vnder it for ever Therfore Hades heere is not hell but the power of Death as hath bene saide or the Dominion of Death or meerely to that effect Also we are to note that the Apostle heere plainly alludeth to that of Hoseah c Hose O Sheol ò kingdom of death or power of ' Death I wil be thy destruction Not o Hell For the Prophet speaketh this to comfort Israel in their captivitie against their continuall Destructions and razings out from this world shewing that now the Lord would stay his iudgement that way Death which had consumed them should now destroy them no more but they should liue and flourish againe This the Apostle might notably allude vnto speaking of the ResurrectioÌ„ As for Hell if the Prophet had meant it as he doeth not the Apostle could make no allusion to it nor haue any thing to deale wch it in this matter of the ResurrectioÌ„ simply So that where you say what reason is there to exclude out of these words Christs victorie over Hell it is very weake What reason is there to include it where the Apostle speaketh only of our resurrection from bodily Death and of nothing els Next we come to the RevelatioÌ„ First a Rev. I have the Keyes of Hades that is of Destruction or of the * The â—â—ble wâ—â—â— the Dâ—â—â— kingdome of death and of Death Or we may take them as 2. words for one and the same thing that is both of them for Death For heere Christ sheweth only that as He was dead so nowe he hath overcome Death hath power to dy no more as I hauâ— b Treaâ— pa 11â— heeretofore noted What shew of reason haue c Pa 17 you then to bringe in heere Christes power over the Damned Soules in Hell Because there is mention â—lswhere of the Key of hell Therefore the Key of hâ—des heer is the same What color of reasoÌ„ is there in this Again a One sitteth on a pale horse whose name was Death Rev. 6.8 Hades Desâ—â—â—on the world of the Dead or the Kingdom of Death followed aâ—ter â—â—m Thâ—â— in no wise can be Hel because the text addeth Power 〈…〉 them to slay with the sword and with samine and death and with wilde beasts Hell slayeth none in that sorte these are not the weapons of Hell but of the Dominion and Power of Death thâ—se and such other mo â—ag 406. are the proper weapons b You take it to bâ— the power of the Divell because the Divell slayeth somâ—times the bodyes of men Which you proue by the bodily slaying and siniting of Iob and his children This indeed is the thing which we holde This is not the Torments of Hell in the place of Damned these be onely bodily harmes and death So that heereby you confirme our purpose for we denie not but God somtime vseth Satan to punish and to slay the bodies of men But seeing this is nothing but Death not Hell which then is inflicted therefore it is bâ—st to take Hades heere most generally as the nature of it is for the Power of Death or the world of the Dead Hell by no meanes it can be â—â—g 398. You tell me in c one place that my best skill is in varying phrases It is better to vary phrases then to vary opinions as you very often doe I vary phrases to expresse Hades which in Authours is not alwayes the same thing or at least not after the same maner Whose generall largenes which it properly hath can not in one word be expressed in English Wherefore my varying of phâ—ases to this purpose I hope is pardonable sith indeed it is necessarie That coÌ„iecture of mine of the 4th part of the worlde 's not going to Hell at once I never esteemed it worth the standing on I he last place is †Death and Hades
that is the DominioÌ„ or power of Death were cast into Hell â—â—v 20.14 I said it was absurd to say Hell was cast into Hell You answer it is more absurd to say the world of Soules was cast into Hell Where you doe but dally and play with words â—t â— e woâ—â—â—e â—e Deaâ— Aâ—â—ally For I vse not that terme * the world of soules though it may be named sometime in a good sense Which you will by no meanes conceave only you delight much to sport your sâ—lfe with it Our answer theÌ„ is this There is no absurditie to say that at the last day when the * last enemy shal be destroyed then Death â—â—â—ore pag. 2. and the power of Death or the Kingdome and Dominion of Death shal be cast into Hel that is eternally dâ—stâ—oyâ—d abâ—â—ished shall râ—turn to the Divell whâ—â—â— they came To say many soâ—t that theÌ„ Hell phalbe cast into Hell souÌ„deth sensâ—les in my â—atâ—s Although you meane the Contayning to bâ— put for the Contayned Hâ—ll for the Divels of Hel and that the Divels shalbâ— theÌ„ cast into hâ—l fire Yea although one Andreas â—eda vnderstand it so likewise For neither you nor they it â—â—â—meth do cosidâ—r that this place assigneth them to Hell then at the last day who yet are not in Hell but shal be then cast into Hell â—nd destroyed But the Divels are a 2 Pet. 2. Iâ—d 6. in Hell already reserved in eâ—â—rlasting châ—mes of darknes Therefore the Divels cannot be vndâ—â—stood heere by Hadâ—s that they shal be then cast into Hel seeing â—hey are already cast in to Hell for ever Death and the Power thereof being the last enemie that shal be dâ—stroyed is not yet but shal be indeed at the last day aboliâ—hed swallowed vp of Hell Lastly â—eere is shewed the most general vniversall rendring vp of all the â—ead whatsoever to iudgment But Hel plainly hath not all the Dead Death the world of the Dead or thâ— Dominion of Death have all Therefore Dâ—ath Hades heere do not signifie properly the Divâ—ll Hell but this only that Death and the vniversall Dominion or power of Death yeelded vp to iudgment al the Dead both great smal both good and bad to be iudged according to their workes Thus it is evident and cleere that Hades no where in the â—ew Testament doth signifie properly Hel as you say it doth Thus also that is concluded fully and perfitly which my 2. Reason †Pag. 15 before affirmed that you have not one place at all in the Scripture to prove that Christs Soule was in Hell b Act. â— 2 One place only you have stood vpon that Christs Soule was in Hades but that helpeth you nothing at all as we have seene You must prove indeed that Chriâ—ts Soule was in Gehenna if you would perswade any man of knowledg which you shal never do Gehenna in the New Testament is properly Hell but Hades is never properly so taken as I hope it is sufficiently before proved Therefore the Concluâ—ion is good To thinke that Christes Soule was ever in Hell is a thing that ought to be vâ—terly denyed Yet heere we must consider a maine obiection of yours â—ven those words of our common Creed Touching Câ—â—â—◠〈◊〉 which vsually in English wâ— vtter thus He descended into Hell originally 〈◊〉 is He descended into Hades And in truth this is all that you have to allâ—age for your opinion â—swere But I answer 2. wayes First Admitting then Denying the authority of thâ—se words in our Comon Creâ—d 1. Admitting the authority of these words yet Not as sufficient not as Aposâ—â—hâ—all but such as may be fâ—oÌ„ godly and sound Christians wâ— affirme that we can well vnderstand them according to the Scriptures vse of Hades rightly viz that Christes whole humane Person came vnder the power and Dominion of Death or that he dâ—caying in this world * falling down from that state of life wherein a while he flourished went absolâ—tly from hence into the world of the Dead 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 153. according to the law of nature which all other men follow likewise when they dâ— How this sense doth fully agree also with the mindes of the ancient Fathers generally we have at large dâ—clared c before Pag. 166. Pag. 1â—4 But this serveth not your turne therefore you will needes inioyne vs d 3. Rules to be exactly and prâ—câ—sâ—ly kept in the expounding of these words namely 1. Distinction of matter 2. Consequence of order 3. Propriety of words You must know that we can be no more strict Note nor more religious in observing the Ciâ—cuÌ„stances of matter order even in the holy Scriptures themselves then you inioyne heere to be observed in these words of men Might not these godly men think you misse in som such Circumstance or light point although the Scripture can not Or if they might why impose you such strictnes on our consciences about mens words as if heere were no possibility of any the least missing or imperfection How beit we admit your 3. Rules also 3. Rules and will observe them sufficiently First these words He descended to Hades may very well expresse a Distinction of matter differing from all the words heere besides They naturally and properly signifie as before we shewed that Christ came to vtter decay in this world and being taken hence was gathered in both partes of his Manhood dissolved wholy intirely to those who were departed before him into another world Or ells thus that he came vnder the full power e before Pag. 192. Dominion of Death Now either of these differeth verily from meere and simple Death â—vian â—â—â—â—â—â—ce â—eaâ—h For to Dy propeâ—ly is nothing els but the going a sunder of the Soule from the Body That other is to be wholy razed out from the presence and sight of this world also a remayning vnder the possession and strength of Death and a going to the society of them in another world g. 192. These indeed are f differing points and degrees in Death albeit in effect generally they bee all one with Death that is they be necessaâ—ily consequent alwayes conioyned vnto Death Againe if those wordes in the Creed were only but a more emphaticall phrase of through and perfit Dying and Departing hence if there were in them no further DistinctioÌ„ of matter then so yet this were enough to distinguish them froÌ„ the other words Dead and Buryed This is cause enough especially in the Ancient times when men suppose this Creed was framed when Christs Humanity and naturall Death was by al meanes subtilly and violently oppugned after a short worde signifying his Death and Buriall yet for more emphasis sake and for further Viging the same to addâ— this other short familiar phrase importing no other maine matter then was before noted but only a more effectuall and more absolut signification
thereof Which in trueth these our wordes in question doe well performe He came vnder the Dominion of Death or Went to the societie of the Dead following presently after these wordes Dead Buried And thus your 2. Rule alse Consequence of order is rightly kept For euen in respect of time it is certaine that Christs whole person perishing froÌ„ hence was wholy ioyned to the Dead after the precise separation of his Soule and body which was his Death And his Buriall being the visible part thereof in good reason may be set before that which signifieth the whole contayning also his Soules invisible going vnto the Dead Lastly if there be no more in this but a stronger emphasis meerely a more full-signifying phrase it might well come after termes of lesse emphasis Your 3. and last Rule Proprietie of Wordes is plainly for vs and against your selfe For that which we strive for is the a Pa. 157 169 17â— native and proper sense of Hades even according to the etymologie of it and according to common vse You if you vrge it to signifie Hel do indeed make a †Pa. 171. Figure in it viz. Synecdoche a part for the whole as before we haue shewed As for the other word heere in the Creed katébe or katélthe Hee descended or came vnder it is not necessarie to take it alwayes to signifie a locall going downe specially thus ioyned with Hades For thus it may aptly lively shew the fall or whole casting down of a mans person from the state of life to death and vtter destruction out of this world as also men are said to stand vp and spring vp when they live Or it may serue to expresse the Force and Dominion of Death which Christ came vnder when he dyed Or the abasement and humiliation of Christ yeelding submitting him selfe so farre that is not onely to Dy but also to come vnder the strength and force of death by lying held subdued as it were for so long time in it All this the very property of the word katebe admitteth very easilie and Ruffinus liketh it where he interpreteth this phrase â—uffin in â—â—mb Descendit in mortem He descended vnto Death If any thinke this to be somewhat figurative yet it is verily so familiar and easie to all people as that other word in this Creed is He sitteth at the right hand of God yea it is farie easier indeed And heerein all the later famous learned and godly Restorers of Religion in a maner doe ioyne with vs as Mat. Bucer P. Martyr Bulinger â—â—slitut Olevia c. Yea M. Calvin liked this also wel enough though yet he seemeth to leane more to another sense viz. Christes Hellish sufferings which indeed is a true doctrine as before is declared though to this place of the Creed I thinke not so fit Now these men your L. ought not to skorne nor reproch though you have leave to deale so with me Their pietie learning and authoritie is such with all that love the Gospell as will overwaigh your big wordes and high lookes and whatsoever els you are lifted vp withal aboue our mediocritie Hitherto we haue answered admitting the authoritie of these wordes He descended to Hades But wee are in truth to know â—ere that as you cite them and vige them they have no such authoritie credit as hitherto we have yeelded vnto them And that for 3. causes First for that your TraÌ„slating and terming them He descended into Hel is corrupt partiall and vntrue Which I trust is manifest by that which I have shewed before touching the true property natural vse of Hades If you say among vs all men do so speak heere and translate hades Hel. I pray you coÌ„sider that this article as also I think this whole Creed was at first written in Greek and not in English Wherefore the English terme how comon so ever must not preiudice vs nor the truth in this matter as very vnreasonably a you indeavour to make it to do â—â—g 420. Convince vs evidently and soundly by Greek authoritie that Hades is alwayes Hell or that Hades is never applyed to the condicion and state of the godly deceased and then I will yeeld or els my sufficient proofes before to the contrary will convince the vntrue and partiall translation Another reason to deny vtterly the authority and credit of these wordes He descended to hades so to hold them vnable to make any argument as from our Creed is because this speciall clause of Christs descending to Hades or to Infernum is new and lately put into our vulgar Creed called the Apostles Creed b Ruffin Symb. Ruffinus witnesseth who lived about 500. yeeres after Christ that it was not at all in the Creed in his time I say not at allâ— neither in the Romane Creed nor yet in the Creed of the Easterne Churches His words are these Sciendum sanè est quod in Ecclesiae Romanae symbolo non habetur additum Deseendit ad inferna sed nee in Orientis Ecclesiis habetur hic sermo Will you say Ruffinus lyeth Or can you bring to the contrarie any proofe I think not yea I am sure you can not Then if there were no such Article as this nor anie such wordes any where in the Creed for the space of 500. yeres after Christ I mervaile what authoritie they haue now to be taken necessarily for a distinct article in our Creed and as differing materially from Dead and Buried Sure it is a Namely Desâ—â—â—le Hades to new to be receaved for doctrine which b Pag. 13â— sprang vp so late Yea thus c Erasm 〈◊〉 Symb. Caâ—â— 4. Erasmus may seeme to haue some colour for his coniecture that about Thomas Aquinas time they might peradventure be put into this Creed Third we can not see but that whensoever whosoever put it first into this place they signified heereby it seemeth that Christ went to Limbus a place vnder the earth where they imagined the blessed Patriarkes rested For this was indeed the opinion generally of the ancient Christians even for “ Limbus inter tayâ— before Châ—â— descendinâ— bades waâ— our set â—câ— oâ— the Crâ—â— a long time and stil is retayned among the Papistes though now growen much worse theÌ„ it was of old But this you iustly coÌ„demne as an error as wel as we how generall and how ancient soever it be Now also though this were the 1st meaning of this Article whensoever it fiâ—fte tooke place in the common Creed yet this was not Hell this giveth no furtherance to your assertion that Christ went into the place of the Damned in tormentes But Thaddaeus Jgnatius Athanasius haue these very words Yet they say not any where that they were in that set forme of the Apostles Creed * Which â—â—deed they 〈◊〉 had not which we now have Also they are cleane against your opinion heere as presently wee shall see You will say yet
even Ruffinus in his exposition of the Creed alleageth this article and he alloweth the doctrine thereof I answere He alleageth truly these wordes Descendit ad inferna but not out of any example of the Apostles Creed yea he expresly denieth it to be therein any where at that time as before we shewed Only it being his owne and the common opinion then hee groundeth it vpon other reasons namely certaine misâ—aken scriptures yet such as he was content to like of and so holdeth indeed that Christ went downe to Infernum that is to Limbus Patrum as an opinion then common among men and worthy as he thought to be beleeued and to be applyed to this place of the Creed touching the Death of Christ â—asin in â—mb Caâ—h 4. although as yet no such matter was contayned in the common Creed Erasmus sayeth The Fathers would not be so rash as to put it into the articles of their Creed seeing their opinions heereabout were so varying and doubtfull Now this you know was all mistaken wrongfully gathered from the Scriptures as badly applyed to the Creed nothing els indeed but the common error of those tymes Yet then hitherto all this is farre from iustifying your opinion nerâ—â—er may you alleage the Creed for your warrant Where note also that Ruffinus heere vnderstandeth the very matter it self precisely signified by these words Descendit ad inferna to be immediatly but this that He dyed like other good men and was buried For hee saith Vis verbâ—â—adem videtur esse in eo quod Sepultus dicitur The effect of this phrase He descended to Infernum seemeth to be all one and the same with this He was Buried And afterwarde going abâ—ut to prove by the Scripture that Christ descended to JnfernuÌ„ he sheweth that hee meaneth his death heereby and his buriall Quod in infernum descendit evidenter praenuÌ„tiatur in Psalmis vbi dicit Et in pulverem mortis deduxisti me Et iterum Quae vtâ—litas in sanguine meo dum descendo in Corruptionem And before vpon those wordes He was Crucified vnder Pon. Pilate and descended to infernum hâ— giveth this sense among other wordes Divina natura in mortem per carnem descendit The Divine nature humbled it selfe eveÌ„ vnto Death in respect of the flesh Howsoever then he thinketh consequently that Christ descending to infernuÌ„ did after Death goe to a place beneath vnto the godly Soules departed before then set them free from thence and caried them with him yet it appeareth that immediatly by this phrase and properly he meant no more but that he Dyed and was Buâ—ied all the rest was consequent as an effect after this according as he and most others of the Ancients did think Lastly heer we see that Ruffinus extendeth this his Descending to the Divine nature but he meaneth it improperly and in a certaine sorte according to that also in the Philippains a Phil. 〈◊〉 He being in the forme of God b Verse humbled himselfe became obedient vnto death So that properly he meaneth it of the very death of his Manhood and nothing els Which is our very minde and iudgment agreeing also generally with the Fathers heerein c Pa. 162 before rehearsed But Ignatius “ Pag. 1 you thinke †is clearely yours likewise one d Pag 17 Thaddaeus by Eusebius report one of the 70. Disciples which the Evangelist Luke speakes of also e Pag 41 Athanasius Creed Ignatius saying Christ descended to Hades alone but rose again with many Ignaâ—â—us meaneth evidently his Buriall and going downe into his Grave as you acknowledge that f Pag. 14. Hades many times may well signifie Which is the plainer to be his meaning for as much as he noteth his Buryall heere in no other wordes besides And sure he alludeth to that in Mathew g Math 27 53. The Graves did open and many bodyes of the Saintes which slept arose And came out of the Graves after his Resurrection and went into the holy City and appeared to many This is touching the Resurrection of their bodyes out of their Graves not of their Soules ansing vp from Hell Neither in Ignatius is there any shew of reason that he meant Hades for Hell He may meane I grant that which is in effect all one the restoring of their whole Persons taken away hence by Death or their comming from vnder the Dominion and power of Death which indeed is according to the proper largenes of this word Also that Christ katélthe came vnder the same Not that he went locally downeward except in his Buriall but touching his whole manhood that hee was humbled and abased even vnder the Dominion and strength of Death And thus it is true that h As Ruffiâ—â— also vndâ—â— stood â—t 〈◊〉 200. Christ by his Death including also togeather his Buriall came downe or Descended But only this you vrge and stand vpon for your claime to Ignatius because it is said He brake downe the wall or stop which was never brokeÌ„ before Where you may know that the meaning is this The power of the Grave or the strength and force of Death was now by Christes Death Resurrection vtterly overcome and dissolved which remayned in deed from the beginning of the world till Christes death as a mighty Wall not broken downe But now the vertue of his death and resurrection brake it cleane downe for ever So that heereby Christ is taught to be as the Apostle also to like effect speaketh the first fruites of the Dead Pag. 179. But you say a Many rose from the dead before Christ and therefore that partition was often broken by others before him I aunswer Though some being dead did rise to life againe before Christes Resurrection as touching the time yet the vertue and power of Christes resurrectioÌ„ was before them by which only and meerely they rose againe Neither yet was ResurrectioÌ„ to all the Dead foorth with performed by the Resurrection of Christ neuertheles throughly purchased it was eveÌ„ then and by the only power and vertue thereof is shal be performed to all in due time So that thus Christ alone brake that wall and stop and absolutly he hath broken it downe which no man before him nor besides him ever brake The like vnto this is your Thaddaeus sentence â—â—â—ddaeus â—â—â—â—nasius also Athanasius in his Creed Whom the rather thus I vnderstand as it seemeth most reasonably and necessarily because they expresse neither his Death nor his Buriall at all in any other wordes save these He descended to Hades Therefore surely this is it which heere they meane by his descending to Hades and this is all that they meane therein that he was brought vnder the dominion of death and was Buryed â—â—escending â—â—plied to â—â—â—â—ts Soule 〈◊〉 Death â—ever fouÌ„d â—â—cripture in anie â—â—cient â—â—ed Consdering also that * no Ancient Creed in the world hath all these 3. divers and
that he began it before his Resurrection seeing the Scripture b Math. Luke 2â— Act 2 2. 3.15 40 1 17.3 Rom. 4.6.4 〈◊〉 Cor. 15 â— 1.20 1 14. 2 Tâ—â— 11. every where noteth this as the first part of his exaltation after death and it being strange in Christian reason against proportion of faith to think that one parte of Christ his Soul should gloriously triumph the other his Body all this while lying in Humiliation possessed with death in the Grave which you say is the Divels range a part of his power and of the Kingdom of darknes Yea also seeing it is most likely that he would cleere himselfe first wholy and intirely in both partes before he would begin to strip and spoyle Sathan for vs. Lastly seeing it is a greater degree of triumph victory to spoyle the enemy to tread him vnder foote to breake his houses and stronge Holdes to set free the captiues to make him and his to bow the knee to the conquerour then to get perfit life freedom to himselfe So that alwayes that is after this Wherefore it seemeth that Christe did thus also If he did actually such thinges in Hell it was not till after his Resurection before which time he had not perfit life and deliverance himself Let vs I pray have some cleere and Christian reason against these strong likelyhoods and then let vs aske a point or two more which we think will follow likewise if your assertion be true First if one part of Christ viz his Soul only were in Hel to execute his victory which before hee had merited on the Crosse then why in his sufferinges righteousnes and obedience might not one parte of Christs manhood have aswell sufficed I say why might not one parte alone have in this world merited enough which Appollinaris an Haeretick affirmed aswell as that one parte might serve to triumph for vs in Hell Againe seeing his Body in the Grave by overcoming corruption which is a part of the Kingdom of Satan as †you say â—â—g 216. did thereby save our bodies froÌ„ that part of Satans walk as you call it by what reason is it that thereby he destroyed not consequentlie the whole kingdom of Satan saving thereby our Soules also in so much that Christs Soule might not have needed to have come into Hell for that purpose Or if they meane that his flesh being in the Grave and his Soule being in Hell did severally and distinctly save our flesh and our soules then how will you be reconciled with them â—â—ur selfe â—eth it 〈◊〉 all men â—â—g a who do deny that point Further for the actuall stripping of Satan of his spoyles why was it needfull that an actuall presence of any parte of his manhood should be in Hell seeing indeed it is certaine that the whole actuall triumph of Christ over Satan proceedeth not of the proper vertue of the manhood but onely from the vertue and power of the Godhead of Christ Therefore that might possibly be as effectuall and as fully accomplished in the absence of the manhood as in the prsence all the while that the Godhead and manhood were still vnited and continually togeather in one Person Last of all if it were the very humane presence of his soule that so delivered our soules from thence that they shall never come thither why did not the presence of his flesh in the Grave keepe ours that it should never come there or at least that it should never putrifie nor rot as his flesh did not All these sequeles and consequences are as good and as likely as your assertion that Christes Soule and not his flesh ought to be locally in Hell for this end that ours might never come there Further I made this Argument in my “ Paâ— 160 former Treatise that Christes Descending into Hell if ever hee did so could not be iudged any part of his Exaltation or Glorification To which your reply is I know not whether more strange or skornful But you †Pa. 416. resolue that these words He descended to Hell importeth his Exaltation and Triumph Yet you skoffe at me for the like as if I had said “ Paâ—â—â— His Descending was Ascending Hell was Heaven But heerin you affirme vntruly 1. I say Though his Soule leaving his body Ascended yet this is not meant by that phrase He descended to Hades 2. I never said that Hades signified Heaven although some in a In aâ—â—â—ble sâ—â—â— Hades are in Heaven 3. Much lesse did I ever say that Hell is Heaven Why theÌ„ cry you out of * Pag â—â— impudencie facing ridiculous and audacious presumption c. Who presumeth let the advised reader iudge when you thus confidently avouch as an article of faith that Christes Soule locally descended and yet bring not one proofe of it from Gods word nor from any mans opinion whom you will cleave vnto fully That b Pa. â—â— you avouch “ veâ—â—â— Phil. 2. for it is more straunge where we have not one word of his local being in Hel. And that the * verâ—â— Colossians 2. should proove it passeth all the rest Where though we graunt you your reading yet the expresse text referreth that triumph to Christes Crosse which you openly deny That of the Councells howe Christ rose againe †Thâ— prove for yoâ— having spoyled Hell I easily yeeld seeing that proveth not his locall being there The same I affirme of that Allegorie in Luke which sheweth Christes c Lukâ—â—â— Overcoming Binding and Spoyling of Satan in deed but not by his locall being in Hel. What if Christ doe set out many pointes of doctrine by Parables Yet such are those pointes as are proved otherwise and elswhere The Parables doe but illustrate them Howbeit this Parable in question Christ expresly applyeth to his Dispossessing of Divells out of mens bodyes Wherefore you ought not to wrest it to another thing whereof there he hath not a word nor any where els that is to shew how Christ bound the Divell in Hell locally Rather remember I pray howe God shewed his displeasure against your wresting of his word by that strange terrour that happened even then when you were descended into the depth of this vncouth doctrine at Paules Crosse Which for the time so affrighted many 1000. of people that it will never be forgotten in England while your opinions be remeÌ„bred albeit this grew but of a small occasion as after it seemed Where you charge me in the end arrogantly and absurdly to falsifie the Synod of our Realme 〈◊〉 17. it is but what your selfe doth in effect I said Our Synod corrected K. Edwardes Synod You acknowledge and professe that in the later words of that former Synod now left out 〈◊〉 419. are 3. things that cannot be iustified by the Scriptures 1. That the Spirites of the iust were in Hell 2. That Christ there preached vnto them 3. That he stayed
there till his Resurrection Which our Synod since very profitably hath overskipped and suppressed First then your selfe granteth that our later Synod corrected the former about this matter which in my wordes you cannot indure to heare 2. You charge these words of K. Edw. Synod with 2. pointes which are not in them 1. That it saith how the Spirits of the iust were in Hell and that Christ descending thither stayed there till his resurrection In me you would make this a great matter so to misreport the wordes of a Synod which in deed saith nothing heereof 3. It is well that you * renounce that of Peter 〈◊〉 22. â—â— 3.19 by Austins direction as making not at all for any locall being of Christ in Hell But yet heerein your selfe openly refuseth the minde of all your predecessors yea of our later Synod if they believed as you vrge that they did For if they liked Christs locall being in Hel they misliked not the applying of that in Peter therevnto as by Mai. Nowells Catechisme may appear Neither misliked they his tarying there till his resurrectioÌ„ which Austin also holdeth as firmely as that he was there All which you vtterly disclaime as wel as I. Why then do you aggravat my differing from them and see not your owne 4. That our English Cleaâ—gie generally did or doe beleeve Christes locall descent into Hell although they reade and rehearse those words so translated certainly no man will nor ought to acknowledge Every man is assured of the coÌ„trarie You can argue nothing then heerein by our vsuall naming of this word Hell in this place of the Creed Which yet is al that you * Pag. â—â— have heere So that your conclusion is vaine If Hell in English bee Hell and going downe bee descending c. Likewise is that You are content to be tryed by all the Fathers both Greeke and Latin Who all as hath ben shewed doe make against your opinion Also as touching the Scripture you are vtterly destitute thereof which yet alone must take place with vs in this matter All that you bring for your purpose are meerely mistaken mistranslated wordes of Scriptures Creedes and Fathers as I hope hath plainly bene proved This therfore may suffice for vs to refuse your doctrine in these points Wisdome shal be iustified of all her children To God only wise be praise through IESVS CHRIST for ever Rom. 16.17 FINIS Pagin Lin. Faultes Correction 13. in marg pag. 8. pag. 7. 23. 37. he they 24. 2. their the 27. 29. will well 36. 22. in marg your you 49. 24. ne  57. 7. herefore heeretofore 65. 28. externally eternally 65. 8. better buter 77. in marg b pag. 51.55 b pag 71.73 103. 33. torments torments yet no only to it The diverse Significations of the Greeke word Hades Which is haâ—â— according to the CircuÌ„stances of the places where it is vsed See pag. 177. Wherevnto also the Hebrue Sheol may be rightly compared Hades a meere PriuatioÌ„ of this visible Worlde No visible being heere any more pa. 157. c. 169. 178. applyed Natively Seldom yet somtime to All visible transitory things when they are Destroyed from out of this World are seene heere no more pag. 188. c. Often chiefly to Dead Men yea to al dead men both Good and Bad Blessed and Damned pag. 155 c. Yet only in respect that they are Dead and seene no more in this world pag. 156 162. 166. 169 177. 178. Thus somtime it signifieth coÌ„cerning theÌ„ that which Tooke them away hence and holdeth them still pa. 169. 179. 181. 192. either Death it selfe pa. 161. 1â—â— The Power Strength 〈◊〉 Force of death pag 194. their State and coÌ„dition pa. 171. 175. 178 viz of their Whole Person dissolved and taken away hence pa. 158. 177. Partes both Soul pa. 155. Body pa. 201. Place pa. 173. 181. in respect of the dissolved Paâ—tes so 〈◊〉 as they have a Being somwhere in a place after Death no Positive thing in any place but meere Privation as is said from thiâ— Visible World Figuratively by a Poeticall fiction making it sometime as it were a Place of things which in truth have no Being nor Place after they cease to be heere pag. 188. Prosopopoeia lawfully setting out the Power of death or of destruction from hence as if it were a Person having this power pa. 182. 179. 192. Idolatrously making such an imagined Person a false God 173. 179. Synécdoche so it is somtime Hell pag. 187. 171. Heaven in Plato pag. 178. the Grave pag. 159.
was not against Christes owne person but against the sinnes which by his office in his own person he sustayned the sorrow and paines whereof touched his very person 2. Their punishments are partly in this life and partly eternall in the life to come but Christes were temporary and only in this life 3. Their sinne being inherent not forgiuen and iustly punished they haue all the properties and Concomitants of sinne inherent never forgiuen but in wrapped in eternall punishments as these Desperation the stinge of Conscience Induration Reiection Malediction Dereliction c. But in Christ where no sinne was inhaerent nor eternally punished there could vtterly be none of these 4. They are pumished heere chiefly in Hell the proper place of the damned heereafter but Christ suffered onely heere in this life Lastly their tormeÌ„ts though euerlasting deserue nothing at Gods hands but Christ though suffering but for a while deserued infinitly favour and grace for them for whom he suffered Howbeit as I said the sufferings of the damned are all one with Christes How the suâ—â—â—rings of Châ—â—â—â— and of thâ—â—â— Damned 〈◊〉 the same as touching the Nature of the punishments and as touching the chiefest causes thereof First God himselfe was the proper and principall Ordayner Author and Executor of his punishment Gods owne hand did it to Christ no lesse then to the damned Sec Christ having most horrible sinnes imputed to him as the damned haue also therefore he suffered for them from Gods hand euen as the damned do namely in these points which are both possible and reasonable that is paines inflicted immediatly and properly in the Soule and not only by outward meanes in the Body For it is most reasonable and possible that the Soule of Christ should haue our sinne imputed to it yea principally to it and not to the Body only even as wee commit sinne in our wholl manhood but yet principally in by our Soule Which being true that Christes reasonable Soule had sinne imputed principally to it according to that of the Prophet He made his Soule sinne Isa 53.10 therefore his Soule principally peculiarly did suffer for it Also his Soule by nature being capable of suffering from Gods very hand an occasion now serving therevnto because of all our sinnes wholly imputed to him lastly God himselfe standing now disposed to punish and revenge sinne in him so far as he was capable thereof therefore his punishment for that sinne was a true proper full punishment as theirs is namely as touching meere paines and was the effect of Gods proper Wrath iustice and vengeance as well on his Soule as on his Body thus for the time it was even like as the sufferings of the damned are â—a 53.134 For * continuance of time in paines is not of the nature of Hel paines or of Gods Wrath Pag. 341. nor yet to be in Hell locally as you wrongly imagin but meere circuÌ„stances ther of only Thus the very nature of punishment for sinne being but the feeling of extreamest paines from Gods hand whether for a time or for ever whether locally in Hell or ells where that neither altereth nor lesseneth the present paines which Gods owne infinit wrathfull power iustice can inflict for satisfaction where and how it pleaseth him These paines then to this end and in this very manner inflicted Christ felt Indeed not being in the locall Hell yet those being as wee see the self same paines for their nature which are in Hell â—ag 247. yea which are * sharpest in Hell And he discerned and receaved them properly yea only in his very Soule as then was manefest when his body was so brused with sorrowes and sufferings yet none at all then touching him without that there strayned out from him much sweat of clotted blood c. These things being thus now let vs see wherein you agree with vs 〈◊〉 248. and wherein you disagree We all agree in termes That Christ suffered in soule Gods Wrath howbeit touching the sense we disagree in 2. maine pointes The iâ—â—â— the qâ—â—â— I affirme that Christ suffered Gods Proper Wrath and vengeance you meane hee suffered only such afflictions as other godly men do suffer at the handes of the wicked and cruell world For “ Pa. 1â— you thinke all Afflictions whatsoever small or great towards whomsoever are the effects of Gods Wrath. But that is not so except in a most vnproper speach To the godly their Afflictions both small and great are Gods Fatherly and gracious Chastisements and no effects of his proper Wrath as shall appeare further heereafter Howbeit you must observe heere my 3. limitations which I set down in the * Beforâ— Quaestion 1. I meane he suffered only that proper Wrath of God which was meerely Punishment for sinne and no sinne 2. This also hee suffered as touching the Substance and Nature of the Paines not as touching the Circumstances either of of Place or Continuance c. 3. I meane hee suffered not every particular Punishment of sinne nor that which every particular sinner meeteth with all but the Generall Curse and Punishment of God for sinne namely that which belongeth in Gods Iustice to All men in Common and Generally who abide in sinne Now after these necessary limitations the maine point wherein we further disagree is this I affirme that Christ Suffered All Gods proper Wrath and vengeance for sinne namely so described and limited as is above said I say All that which the very Damned doe suffer Christ thus did suffer for vs and therefore even a Proper and immediat sense in his Soule of Gods Proper most painfull Wrath his infinit and vntolerable burning Wrath. Which what toung is it that can expresse or hearte conceaue Yet Christs Humane Soule was apt and able to feele it though not to sustaine it A iust occasion in him was offered therevnto for then he stood foorth as the only and absolute Ransompayer of all our debt And Gods vnpartiall Iustice dispenseth not without necessitie Yea where he cometh to Punish he layeth it on finding sinne vnsatisfied as he doth inhaerent in the wicked and as he did imputed in Christ our surety till he had by †Heb â—â— Sufferings accomplished finished perfitly his RedemptioÌ„ for vs. Your Aâ—â— on wâ—â—â—â—gain saâ—â— Christ â—â—red iâ—â—â— only 〈◊〉 froÌ„ hiâ— But this is far greater then as you hold that He suffered no more but meere Bodily paines that is in his Soule by froÌ„ his Body This is your drift every where but I note these expresse places â—â—g 16. * Sin which should have wrought in vs an eternall destruction both of Body and Soule could not farther prevaile in him but to the wounding of his flesh and sheding of his bloud for the iust full satisfactioÌ„ of all our sinnes even in the righteous and syncere iudgment of God Likewise your generall Title is The Full redemtion of mankind
acknowledge mine errour Adde heerevnto that experience sheweth as Physitians say how som diseases in the Body bring Death presently after most strong and violent crying namely in som excessiue torments as of the Stone c. Where in through extreeme paines and torments the vitall Spirits being dissipated will bee vtterly extinct somtimes before they can recover and gather againe togeather Thus a man having good strength and force in his Body when such a disease resteth not neere the principall partes of nature originally it seemeth hee may notwithstanding by violence of paine onely giue vp the Ghost at a suddaine yet not miraculously but by the course of nature only Pag 7. Ad Hedib quaest 8. But * Ierom saith this was a great wonder and that therevpon the Centurion confessed truly this man was the Sonne of God I deny not but Christ might shew som strang vnusuall thing apparantlie to the beholders in vttering his last voice when he cryed Father into thy hands I commend my Spirit Which might also very much move the beholders and hearers And yet it shall not follow that Death seazed vpon him not naturally or not by the fayling of natures strength in him I say this may be acknowledged and yet verily there is no necessitie at all to yeeld even this for any thing that the text noteth Yet Ierom sayeth the Centurion was moved with this great wonder It is strange that you should persist to vrge Jerom heerein against the plaine text in another place Mat. 27.54 which saith When the Centurion saw the Earth quake and the thinges that were don he said Truly this was the Sonne of God â—er 51. Heere it is expresly noted that the * Earthquake chiefly with other apparant miracles there mentioned or els the Earthquake with the the iniuries of the Persecutours and the innocency and partience of Christ persecuted compared togeather did move the Centurion to confesse and say Truly this was the Sonne of God Heere it is plaine then that not Christes crying in those tormentes was such a wonder or that the Centurion was by reason thereof moved to acknowledge Christ to be the Sonne of God as Ierom collecteth I know not from what ground but those other sights before said Last of all Austin is brought to prove this matter Pag 8. but with no more strength of reason by the Scripture then the former Neither can his words indeed being granted necessarily conclude any thing for your purpose which as sâ—emeth do shew nothing but Christes voluntary dying and that at his death he â—hewâ—d great power and not infirmity only Who denyeth thâ—se things Thâ—n he proceedeth to shew my disdaine to the Fathers further namâ—ly for such “ pag 2â— insolent reiecting all their opinions touching the causes of Christs Agonie in the Garden and of his complaint on the Crosse These supposed causes are alleaged and amplifiâ—d in the †pag 1â— former parte For answere first I dâ—siâ—e to know whether you allow of all these causes or not you sâ—â—me to â—â—fuse them * pag 13â— heere for heerein you shewed not your owne opinion but â—he iudgments of the Fathers Elswhere “ pag 29 yourselfe are resolute for som of these causes and against other som And yet before * pag 37 All these interpretations you say are sound and stand well with the rules of Christian piety Thus variable you are in that wherein you seeme most resolut Howbâ—it in my minde where you deny these to bee your opinions there you are in the best opinion Neither indeede to tell you plaine can I be of opinion that those their iudgements are true pag â—â— The reasons of my dissenting were touched in †my former Treatise and are maintayned further heereafter as very sufficient and iust How then I pray you do I insolently reiect the Fathers if heerein I dissent from them iustly which even your selfe also doth in sundry of them But my maner of speach is insolent perhaps because I say such collections are absurd and vnlikely I answer these my words are purposely meant of those in these dayes that delight to vaunt of the Fathers and chiefly in their errours For seeing these opinions themselues are vntrue though some of the Fathers inclined after them yet such in our time as vrge them cannot but bee absurd and strang teachers Who having so many helpes and meanes to discerne where the Fathers mistookâ— which they vtterly wanted and we abound with all yet do so littlâ— profit by them that even great Doctours as they desire to bee thought see not so much in the truth of the Gospel as many younger men now peâ—câ—ave and in the Fathers they make themselves so cunning that commonly their sound doctrine they little regard their faults only they admire Such I meant and tooke for absurd gatherers from this Scripture Whom heere I noted by the namâ— of our Contraryes The Fathers I call not so Now that this indâ—ed may be also seene even in your expounding heere Consider first how you wavered and spake coÌ„trarily in these supposed Causes Christs subâ—â—ssion â—â—e lewes reâ—ction â—â—e Churches â—â—spersion 〈◊〉 pa 17 â— â—2 37. Treat 1. â—ag 68. as I noted a litle before Again these agree not with any Ciâ—cumstances of the Passion and so are meerely of Humane coniecture without all Scripture also they agree not togeather among themselves One of them crosseth another one overthroweth another Will you then avouch them as you do to be * all sound and to stand well with the rules of Christian piety Howbeit absolutely I dâ—ny not but that thâ—se or some of these reasons were in Christ at his Passion as namely his Care for his Church his love of his enemies c. For these holy affections hee never wanted all his life long But this rather confuteth then proveth these to bee the very cause or causes that †in the hower of his dreadfull Passion wrought in him such Agonies and consternation of minde â—ag 6. But these things heere I omit beeing heereafter more fully discussed Lastly you cast a needles rebuke vpon me for confounding the Causes of the Agonie and of the Complaint togeather 〈◊〉 230.231 Forsooth that was done not without reason I thinke Every reasonable man I beleeve will say that the same cause was of them both in Christ His Agonie and his Complaint are not so contrary nor so divers but that they might yea verily did proceed from the same cause and ground Yea Ambrose 〈◊〉 20. one of your Authours doeth * plainly ioine theÌ„ both togeather 〈◊〉 231. Yea your selfe doth also as by comparing †your cause of the Agonie 〈◊〉 34. with your 1. or 2. of the ‡ Complaint will appeare You have much cause then have you not to make such outâ—â—yes vpon me that I am strangely amazed confounded and forgetfull in my writing Good wordes I pray you I did but ioyne them togeather whom your selfe
others do make all one But I have stood too long on these tryfles Now you will shew some examples of my mistaking or perverting your owne reasons 〈◊〉 31. For these hitherto were not his but the Fathers opinions as before I noted I marveyle then why he troubleth him selfe and vs with them if they be not his specially if he propound them not to be receaved Why laboureth hee so to distract vs with such varieties And then to tell vs they are not his but other mens Yet such mens he telleth vs they are as that it must not be for our Credit to refuse them Thus the poore people are strangely taught thus the world shal be filled full of ambiguities doubtfulnes variety of opinion in matters of Religion and withall forbidden to rest vpon any certaine and particular reason as also he dealeth in other cases But I omit to prosecute this any further For we shall now see some of his owne matters which I have ignorantly or purposely perverted First “ pag. 2â— he telleth vs that In the Effectes of Christes Crosse he noted out of the Apostle to the Hebrues three properties of the true propitiatorie Sacrifice which tooke away the sinne of the worlde It was a Bodily a Bloudy and a Deadly Sacrifice for so you speake This is one of your reasons yea almost the greatest to proove the Quaestion against vs because Christes Bodily Sufferings bloudshed were the true propitiatioÌ„ of our sinnes But what a reason is this How diffreth it froÌ„ our Assertion That the true Sacrifice for sinne must be indeed bodily bloudy dead we doubt not we vnfaynedly heartily doe imbrace it The Patriarkes beleeved it the Iewes sacrifices of beastes figured it the new Testament confirmeth it But how will it follow then Ergo Christes Bodily death onely meerlie was the wholl ransom and price of sinne For we must note that this is the very Question in deed this is the point of our Controversy as * Pag. 8. I have shewed if you will deale plainly If you speake not to this point your words are Ambiguous and deceitfull and that notable fault is in your selfe most true which “ Pag. 2.301 you wrongully charge me with you dally with generall and doubtful termes which according as they are expounded may eyther make with you or against you And most rightly of your wholl booke being indeed a huge volume for so litle matter I may say that which you obiect most vnaptly against my smal pamphlet * Pa. 24â— Three lines directly to the purpose had ben more worth theÌ„ so many leves thus wastfully spent Wherefore if you meane these wordes directly to the purpose in deed and doe intend to conclude that which we plainly deny and as now at this time we will vnderstand your meaning to bee that the meere Bodily Sufferings of Christ without any proper sufferings of his Soule are the intier and whole ransom for sinne then I affirme expresly there is no piece of reason nor likenes of any argument in thâ—se wordes This will not follow by any meanes from your †Heere 〈◊〉 the Hebâ—â— Your meâ—â— is and mâ—â—â— in this Qâ—â—â— That Châ—â—â—â— meere boâ—â— bloud â—â—â—ferings aâ—â— whole 〈◊〉 texte Againe if the Sacrifice as it is onely Bodily Bloudy and Deadly doth wholly purge sinne then although Christs Bodily death and bloudshed wanted not the sympathy of the Soule yet it followeth that no action or passion of his Soule neither this by sympathy nor any other I say none at all as being in the Soule was regarded as propiciatory and meritorious Which if you once affirme plainly then we will seeke no further for your drift wee may know your meaning well enough Christs Soule shall haue no place no merit no respect at all in the matter of Propitiation Howbeit elswhere I see in you manifest Contrariety heerevnto For sundry times you teach that Christ did suffer peculiarly and severally som * proper punishments which I hope were propitiatory meritorious in his Soule â—â—g 4. 257. â—â—8 2â—3 â—â—8 245. besides his Bodily suffering Yea that this was a part of his Crosse the effect of Gods wrath on his Soule as wel as the suffering in his Body Now how can this be true if our wholl Ransom propitiation be only Bodily bloudy and deadly which is the point that heere * you stand on so pa. 253 But you have reasons you say to coÌ„firm your maine matter â—ag 232. 3. among many these 2 The Jewish Sacrifices and the Sacramentes of Christians The 1st shaddowing and foreshewing the 2. testifying and confirming that the true sacrifice for sinne was Bodily and bloudy Still what trifling is this Doth any in the World deny it that the true Sacrifice for sin was the Body bloud and death of the Redeemer Wherefore the * Proposition must be as I did set it in your behalfe * â—ereof 〈◊〉 speake 〈◊〉 233. â—â—at 1.10 â—31 â—â— 8. c. 44. c. The Iewish Sacrifices were shaddowes or Figures and our * Sacramentes were signes of our wholl and absolute redemption by Christ I say of the wholl and intire propitiatory Sacrifice or els you shrinke and leave the Question As for your paines of Hell in such sense as you vnderstand them that is including the locall punishment among the Damned Desperation finall retection and such like so there was never any that thought Christe Suffered Hell paines as before is declared 〈◊〉 6 Where you say that I expound these Figures of our wholl and absolut redemption to bee of all the fruits and causes of our redemption why do you vntruly charge me with that which I have not I haue no such word nor meaning as fruits Indeed I named theÌ„ Figures of * Effects in Christ 〈◊〉 14. I meane Acts don by Christ but I never thought them any where fruits of our redemption but either causes or meanes or other necessary adioints This therefore which indeed is the true Proposition being set as it ought to be I grant not as you also vntruly charge me I do still deny it in such maner as I did before “ Pag. 1 Generally All the Iewes Sacrifices did not * I mean the propoâ—â— of their â—â—ward appâ—â—rance theâ— not expreâ—â— the whole Figure and shaddow our wholl redemption in Christ The inward and invisible things they all did not signifie And yet I grant indeed that they signified what they were apt to teach and signifie namely the outward and Bodily sufferings only This I say many of the Iewes Sacrifices did represent and signifie yea most of them but not All. Therefore the “ Pag. 23 Assumption also I may well deny as * Treat 1 pag. 12. I did before affirming that certaine Jewish Sacrifices set foorth the sufferings even of the Soule of Christ and not of his Body onely As 1. that “ Lev. 1â— Sacrifice consisting of 2.
sunder â—â—g 268. Austin on whom d you triumph is stretched beyond his meaning He dealeth against a Manichee who denyed that Christ had true Humane flesh 〈◊〉 likewise â—â—l the rest â—â—ur Fathers â—â—ken for â—ost part 〈◊〉 sayings â—â—ther aâ—â— the Maâ—â—es or the â—â—s c. 〈◊〉 strove â—bout our â—â—â—ion which yet notwithstanding is manefest because Christ truly dyed Now he proveth that Christ truly dyed because the Apostle saith He was made a Curse for vs in that he hanged on the tree And where it is said Cursed is every one that hangeth on the tree this was saith he to shew that Christ was not exempted but was like other men truly accursed and truly dead So that his meaning is not to shew that Christes whole Curse and his bodily death were iust all one without any differeÌ„ce which you vrge him for nay he hath no such meaning Only he proveth by this that he being made truly a Curse did also truly Dy which the Manichee denyed For in saying Christ was dead accursed for vs is the same he meaneth it is the same for his purpose the one very well proveth the other but not that they were simply all one The rest of e your Fathers are alltogeather idly cited 〈◊〉 95. no man denyeth that which they say Where f you mislike me for saying 〈◊〉 26â— â—â—â—at 1. 〈◊〉 38. g The Curse laid vpon Christ was not onely the ignominie of his death the shame of the world you have nothing against it but much for it Austin whom you boast of is against you in this saying a Pag. â—â— Christ heere tooke on him our punishment without sinne But our punishment which is without sinne doubtles was a great deale more then only the dishonour and shame of the world Austin therefore is manifestly against you in this yea also b Pag. 2 your owne selfe is in saying likewise Austin and Chrysostome and c Pag. 9 other doe say that Christ suffered this ignominie but that this was all or the whole Curse which hee suffered I see none that affirmeth Your many Scriptures in d Pag. 2 this place what doe they Forsooth they prove that it is light at Mid-day For who ever made quaestion but that shame and reproch in their simple Nature were a parte of the true Curse of God Yet all this sheweth not that Shame was the whole Curse which Christ indured e Pag. 2â— You mislike that f Treat pag. 45. I said Christes dying simply g That is Christ haâ—ed simply which in 〈◊〉 he did noâ— as the godly dy may in no sort be called a Curse or Accursed Because as I affirme also h Pag. 44. Death to the godly is no Curse properly nor punishment of sinne but a benefit and advantage Nay therefore Christes Death was properly a Curse because his Death was i As befoâ—â— Pag. 11. 49 59 5 not like theirs You say I am too young a Doctor to controll St Austin herein And I say you are a Doctor not old enough to prove Austin k Your self teth him 〈◊〉 me herein 49. Corp mors bâ—â— bona mâ—â— mala contrary to me in this point Death in it owne nature and in the originall propertie of it is a part of the Curse and so Christ suffered it but in the Godly it is not properly a Curse nor the proper punishment or revenge of sinne which Christ once alone hath wholely sustayned and cleane freed vs of for ever This l Pag. 90. your selfe as well as m Pag. 43 I can tell saying The vengeance of the Lawe once executed on our Surety can no more in Gods iustice be executed on vs. And this our n Nowell techis Hâ—â— suffered â—â—der c. publike doctrine in England set forth by Masster Nowell confirmeth By Christes death it is come to passe that to the faith full Death is now not a Destruction but as it were a removing and changing of life and a very short and sure passage to heaven Who also in o His she Catechisâ—â— An. 157 another place expresseth it thus Death of the body which without Christ was the gate to Hell is nowe by Christ made to all that beleeve in him the gate and passage to Heaven So that death which before was a Punishment is now by Christ become a vantage Wherein you are notably contradicted who doe call p Pag. 15â— 216. Death in the godly the gate of Hell a strange and most vntrue translation Againe you are q Pag. 268 269. gainsaide in this place where you reprove me for affirming that Death to the godly and faithfull is a benefitt and advantage Then you say If I will reason what death is in it selfe I must resolve it to be a part of Gods Curse Which is no answer For our quaestion is not what death is in it selfe Who ever denied it to be in it selfe as you say a part of Gods Curse for sinne but my expresse wordes are Death to the godly is no Curse properly but a vantage Pag. 270. Where a you adde If Death were a gaine to the godly as I would have it by what meanes I pray you came it so to be If you know not why did you not marke better the publike Catechisme before rehearsed where all England is taught that it came by meanes of the death and resurrection of Christ You say Jf by the resurrection of Christ conquering Death and changing the nature of it then till Christ was rison Death was a punishment to the faithfull themselves I wonder what meaning there is in this argument As well you may say There were none saved til Christ was risen For salvation also and forgivenes of sinnes to all men came only by the death and resurrection of Iesus Christ So that thus till Christ came in the flesh none of the holy Patriarkes Abraham David and the rest obtayned eternall life And what became of them then But I am perswaded that Abraham David and all the Prophetes dying before Christ was exhibited in the flesh yet by their faith in Gods sure ordinance and promise they had and enioyed Christ truely incarnat slaine and risen againe and this to them was as effectuall then as it is now to vs since the actual performance of these things Whereby even as we by faith so they by the same faith differing onely in the circumstance of time were truely and throughly saved Likewise to the faithfull then by the efficacie of their holy faith Death was properly no punishment but a gaine even as to vs nowe it is Further b you except against me touching innocentes and Martyrs executions Pag. 175. who c I say are most blessed Treat 1. Pag. 38. You reply Their Martyrdomes are shamefull deaths and that is a kinde of Corporall Curse A kinde of Curse Who denyeth that We know all shame affliction to all men is a kinde of Curse
experience of them This same also sundry of the Fathers avouch with vs most fully and even those which your selfe brings for a your selfe Pag. 25. Cyrills wordes before touched are most large Cyrill Theâ—â—ur 10.3 Omnia Christus perpessus est vt nos ab omnibus liberaret Christ throughly suffered all such passions which men doe suffer that he might deliver vs from all Humane â—ature All the passions of †fleshe were stirred in Christ yet without sinne and so that vnles he had dyed we had not bene delivered from death vnles he had feared and sorrowed we had not ben quitt from feare and sorrowe Heere he saith all our passions were stirred in Christes humane nature even so farre as we are cured and so farre as might bee without sinne in him Then I hope by Cyrills iudgement the sense of the true curse and proper wrath of God for sinne was in Christes Soule so faire as it might be painfull and not sinfull seeing Men are subiect to this suffering as the most sharpest among others Lastly by Cyrill here we see that vnles Christ had felt the same suffrings which we feele and are cured of we had not bene delivered of them This also I am sure fitteth not your opinion That one drop of Christes bloud was sufficient for our whole redemption Which was one of your principles in your preaching but in your book you skip it cleane I know not how â—ag 25. 26. Next we may see that c your place of d Ambrosâ— is also fully to the same effect Luc. de â—â—tic dol â—â— A litle after his e former words he saith The ioy of the eternall Godhead being parted away from him Christ was affected with the redioâ—snes of my infirmity â—â—fore pa. 48 He tooke vpon him my sorrow that he might give mee his ioy and he abased himselfe to the sorrow of death in our manner that by the same meanes in him he might bring vs to life He ought therfore to take sorrow that he might overcome sorrow and not exempt himselfe from it that we might learne in Christ to ouercom the sorrow of death approching Wherefore Christ exempted himselfe from nothing in his Passion that we haue experience of as touching Paines and sorrowes And by the same sufferings in him selfe for vs he healeth vs wherevnto we are subiect by reason of sinne So that thus in his agonie hee wrought with a deepe effect that because in his flesh hee killed our sinnes he might also with the sorrow of his Soul extinguish the sorrow of our Soules To this very purpose also a Pag. 47 4â— Naâ—â—anz Fulgent Barnard Tertull. Ierom. many others before rehearsed do affirme most fully Neither is this taking of their sentences any whit to abuse the Fathers which you b Pag. 86. are afraid of You greatly abuse them which take them otherwise namely as if they meant that by the flesh and bloudshed of Christ meerely alone without the merit of his Soules and Mindes proper suffering our whole Ransom were paid As for our comparing the paines of Christs suffering with the paines even of the Reprobats in this life I see not that you nor any man living can finde fault therewith onely set aside their sinfull suffering which alwayes I testifie that Christ was most free from Yea I doubt not but we may compare Christes sufferings in his Agonies touching vehemency of paines even with those of the Damned in hell What the oâ— is betweenâ— Christes Suâ—fering 〈◊〉 Damned Only I conceave betweene Christs and theirs this odds 1 They suffer sinfully 2 Perpetually 3 Locally in Hell All which being excepted otherwise Christ suffered altogither as bitterly as sharpely yea I may say in nature the very same as the Damned doe which therefore may well be called the paines of Hell although yet Hell indeed doeth differ in some great and waighty circumstances as is aforesaid If you say the extreamest paines of punishment caÌ„not be where sinne is not That is true neither in deed can the least paines be where there is no sinne and that no more in the Body then in the Soule though this please not you Marke what I say The extreamest paines of al may as possibly be inflicted where no sinne is as the very least that as well in the Spirit as in the Body But in trueth neither the one nor the other is possible Neither the greatest nor the least paines of Gods proper vengeance for sinne can be inflicted or suffered at all in Soule or in Body but only where sinne is That is to say either imputed or inhaerent Ordinarily the Reprobat are thus punished where sinne is inhaerent Extraordinarily and singularly by Gods owne speciall ordinance Christ was even thus punished yet where sin was but imputed And thus therefore Christes Soule for meere paine might suffer the extreamest spiritual punishments altogeather as well as his body might suffer any at all without inhaerent sinne But you graunt his body suffered truely punishments for sinne Therefore his soule might suffer also even those of the extreamest degree Your “ See beâ—â—â— pag. 14. selfe also granteth that Christ both might and did suffer the extreamest paines that might bee without his owne sinne But it was possible for him to conceave and feele in his a minde farre greater sorrowes and paines for our sinne from Gods wrath â—at ◠〈◊〉 26. then hee could feele meerely in his body outwardly And the greatest was no more sinne then the least though both were properly for sin Therefore by your own grant Christ might and did feele and indure the greatest sorrowes of the minde and soule as well as the lesser in the body being all the very effectes of the wrath of God against sinne â—ag 102. b You bring a reason against this that God spiritually punisheth no man but for his own vncleannes which is a thing meerely vntrue For though no other man was ever punished without his owne vncleannes neither spiritually nor corporally yet Christ our Saviour was who in this case was not in the ordinarie state of men But I pray shewe me this mysterie how it is that God caÌ„not punish Spiritually where there is no inhaerent sinne but can and may Corporally where there is none All the rest of your assertions c heere are altogeather of this sute â—a 101 102 â—03 105. â—66 94. By this one reason I weakened all yours but you could passe that by To this efâ—â—ct Treat 1 â—ag 41 43. answering vnto it not a word Viz d If Christes body hanging on the Crosse and held by Death in the grave was punished by God where yet he found no sinne and which he still intierly loved and was never separated froÌ„ then so hee might did punish properly his Soule also yet never divide his Godhead nor his love from it But thus he did to his body therefore even so hee might doe and did to his
in respect of his infinit paines he might Mar. 14.35 c This hower can not be referred to his Holy and Righteous affections which were at all howers and seasons in him without measure Holy yet now at his death did not so expresly break out shew theÌ„selves Nor as his â—aines did â—â—peare as they did at divers times before Therefore this Hower can not be these his Holy affections his Paines afflictions they d may be and must bee â—oh 12.27 â—â—mpar with 〈◊〉 33. Neither thus standeth it with his piety to wish that his strong and vehement affections of Holynes should passe from him or bee weakened in him For my part I can see no sense nor sap in these assertions Even so likewise in that â—ag 21. where you ascribe to this his c deepe sorrow of zeale for mens sinnes his sweating bloud in his agonie aboue nature after a strange and marvelous maner I dare say you deliver strange mervayles in Divinity The Fift Cause f you say â—ag 21. might be the Cup of Gods wrath tempered made ready for the sinnes of men which you interpret to be g Eternall Malediction Pag. 22. Touching which you say Christ knowing what our sinnes deserved might intentively pray to have that Cup passe froÌ„ him which was prepared for vs. For vs whom meane you The Elect or the Reprobat What malediction The whole absolut Paines thereof only or the Eternity of the continuance thereof also For so the Reprobats do suffer it If you meane the Elect As you afâ—â—me most â—â—angely pa. â—â—2 133. 144 â—93 294. Christ knew that he must not only h see contemplat but feele suffer all the whole Paines of that Punishment which our sinnes deserved and this was prepared for himselfe our Ransom-payer and not for vs. Wherefore the truth is he could not by any meanes pray against that nor decline that onely vnles he were for the time in some astonishment perturbation of his senses which by the infinitnes of that Paine he might well bee in yea he could not but be in his Humane weake nature and yet still remayning vtterly sinlesse as is afore shewed to have happened in Moses and Paul in a far lesse perturbation then this was in Christ Now this is the very point of our Defense affirme this and you affirme with vs all that we hold professe Otherwise if you meane that Christ prayed intentively to have the whole and intire Cup of eternall Malediction and death passe from him which both the Elect deserve and the Reprobats sustaine that as it is passing strange doctrine so it is also simply impossible For he could not intentively pray against that not feare that which hee most perfitly knew concerned him not at all and by no meanes could ever possibly come neere him But indeed all this is nothing els in effect then your 1 Cause His submission to Gods maiesty sitting in iudgment Wherefore you might have lessened your number and so your answer to this might have ben thesame which is made to your formost But heere furthermore you knit in with this a As youâ— kon theâ— geatheâ— 27. 4 other severall causes of Christs Agony 1. His taking of our infirmities in his flesh to cure them 2. His breaking the knot betwixt bodily death and Hell which none but hee was able to do 3. Gods anger which might be executed on his body but was mitigated by him 4. The desire he had to continue the seeling inioying of Gods presense with his body The of these maketh in my minde much for vs. For vnderstanding that Christ tooke all the infirmities and passions wherevnto mens nature is subiect to the ende that hee might cure all and every kinde of them in vs then it followeth that he wanted not the proper immediat sufferings of paines inflicted by Gods own haÌ„d in his Soule For these are our Soules subiect vnto and capeable of yea and tormeÌ„ted with finally we are by this apt and proportionable medicine of Christ throughly cured of theÌ„ And this is the very same matter which our 4 Argument * Pag 8â— 87. before concluded that Christe had experince of thesame infirmities passions generally whatsoever wherof he hath cured vs. And this your owne Authours here doe fully affirme Cyrill Ambrose and others as a Pag. 88 before we have observed It is then most vnreasonable which heere c you doe if you doe as you seeme to vnderstand them of meere Bodily death â—a 25 26 27 of the infirmities meerly of his Flesh Before pag â—1 Wherein then you deny our d Assumption also are againe Contrarie to your selfe and to f your owne Authours Cyrill nameth flesh heere Pag. 10. 〈◊〉 Ieâ—om Pde meaning not Christes Deitie but his whole Humane nature as the Scripture doeth in a multitude of places and so not his Body onely Thus then it is that he saith as you obserue Pag. 25. that g Christ as a man abhorred and feared death not the bodily death only but as it was conioyned with the sorrowes of the 2. death He would not he could not so feare and be afrighted yea and pitiously astonished with such sorrowe oppressing him as to sweat droppes of bloud only for feare of his bodily death neyther would he pray at all much lesse so vehemently and so oftenty mes as he did against that which he perfectly knew was Gods will and his own most willing purpose to vndergoe Or els Cyrill meaneth no more but that he naturally misliked shunned eveÌ„ as all flesh doth all bodily paine death This we alwayes yeeld and it maketh nothing against vs. For nevertheles he coÌ„stantly imbraced suffered with ioy whatsoever bodily grief he knew did come vnto him by his owne most free wil and by the holy ordinance of God yea he could would beare it with ioy far beyond all the ioy and constancie of h men in their sufferings Who yet â—rink not at 〈◊〉 neither for â—â—dily paines â—â—r for Reliâ—â—ous fear of â—â—ll Only he might faile of the outward appearance and vse of this coÌ„stancie and ioyfull patience as now he did without taint of sinne if his Humane nature were overwhelmed with other infinit paynes and his minde and senses disturbed with more horrour then naturally it could beare Therfore I conclude he thus feared not his meere bodily death but it was the Paines of the 2. death which he felt and so feared But you say i The sorrow and feare of death which it pleased our Saviour to feele in our nature â—ag 26. came not for want of strength but of purpose to quench and abolish those affections in vs. I say it came from both as your selfe also doe avouch cleane contrarily in an other place k To dy even in Christ was infirmitie â—ag 161. though voluntary And generally in another place â—ag 289. l Naturall infirmitie was coÌ„mon
Deo The Death of the Soule is Gods Forsaking of it â—â—fore pag. â— 113. â— 108. 113 â— 134. But the Scripture saith God did leave him or forsake him for a season yea the Fathers also c agree fully therevnto the maner how d I have shewed before Therefore by Austins definition largly and rightly taken Christ may be said in some sense to haue dyed in Soule Howbeit though the Fathers doe graunt the thing in effect as I have shewed yet I acknowledge they doe deny this phrase generally and so doeth Austin in this place But thereabout we never made question this is no parte of our matter It may bee even for the same cause they shunned it for which we also doe vse it very rarely and warily as before I observed Pag 136. And let this be the Answere touching all your Fathers and Councells which you bring aboundantlie heere and there about this point of the Soules death Though peradventure some of them may seeme to insinuat even this very phrase touching Christ sometyme as in some I touched before Where you say â—â—g 317. †Aske the simplest child that is Catechized in my charge if I have any what death Christ dyed for vs and hee will answer me out of his Creed Christ was Crucified Dead Buried It is true But our authorized Catechisme published by M. Nowel and the Homily i sheweth the meaning heereof to be 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 67 117.â— that Christ suffered far more sharply theÌ„ meere bodily Death even the infinit paines of Gods wrath in his soul which I pointed you vnto k before but you fairly leape it over â—â—eat 1. pa. â— as also the Archb. speciall allowance with others of M. Now. Catechisme as being fully grounded on the word of God contayning the very doctrine of the Church of England Now to this effect the youths in my charge being asked would have answered surely For indeed such a charge in London I had I thank God wherin I hope I was faithfull according to my power might have coÌ„tinued had not your il seasoned teaching so contrary to the established doctrine in Englande burst foorth a You say â—ag 325. â—â—a 53.12 â—r hee powâ—â—◠〈◊〉 I should have don well to have laid that downe for a shew which is written in Esay b He c laid downe his Soule vnto death verily if I had it would have made som shew Considering that d Pa. â—6 you earnestly affirme that this word signifieth Soule or Spirit in a proper sense Also how resolute you are forbidding to e Pag. 1â— divert from the native proper significations of words but when the letter impugneth the groundes of Christian faith and charity This considered surely that in Esay maketh some shew indeede that Christ submitted and humbled and afflicted even his Soule to Death The rather if we note that which followeth He was counted with the sinners and bare the sinne of many That is he was punished by God as the sinners are f See besâ—â— pag. 76. punished and was not by the Iewes onely counted among Theeves But chiefly considering withall that also before g Isa 53. â— He made his soule a sinne offering Heere you must remember †Your pa. â— we shall leave nothing sound sure in Gods word if we may avoid all thinges by figures that please not our humours Therefore you must needes grant that Gods worde heere maketh Christs Soule to be †sacrificed for our sinne And we desire no other death of the Soule We deny not but this phrase AnimaÌ„ pâ—nere is to lay downe the life and in divers places signifieth no more then simply to Dy both concerning Christ and other men as you observe pag. 70. Yet this is no necessary reason that heere in J say the Soule should be taken figuratively for the Life onely the rather seeing heere the text precisely setteth down the great perfit worke of our RedemptioÌ„ And to take it as we do literally impugneth no ground at all of faith or Charity The like peradventure may bee affirmed also of that in Mathew h Mar 2â—â— The sonne of man came not to be served but to serve and to give his soule a ransom for many although the translatours commonly turne it his life But I wil not strive about these phrases Aust hath not a word against vs in that great place which i Pag. 32â— you cite his whole argumeÌ„t there being to another purpose The Iewes slew only the flesh of Christ and yet it is true that they slew Christ Who doubteth this Also where you thinke those words to be so k Pag. 327â— plaine and expresse as may be spoken so effectuall as Pauls heart could invent or his toung vtter that Christ reconciled vs to God in the body of his flesh through death we have answered you †Pag. 45. â— before As for al your other discourse heere against me it is as every where almost nothing but revilings and reproches and bitter skoffes Yet you say l Pag 108. â— you have not learned nor vsed to give reviling speaches Have you not learned it Is it then naturall vnto you Nay you meane m Pag. 264â— these are Fatherly Warnings and admonitions If your Fatherly admonitions are such what are your Lordly rebukes If these bee your Bishoply blessinges what are your Cursings But I am to blame heerein standeth not the tryall of our quaestion As for all thâ—se hogepots as n 〈◊〉 3â—8 you call them which you make of my wordes they are nothing but your owne either wilfull writhings or vncharitable surmises as by every particular in then places may be seene Finally that is not true where you say o 〈◊〉 330. Flesh doth often signifie the soule in vs. It signifieth often the whole Manhood togither in vs and so it may and doth in Christ aswell Also it signifieth in vs many times our whole and intire corrupt nature both in body and soule so it never signifieth in Christ And heere I desire the reader to change a word or two in my former Treatise Note â—reat 1. pa. â—6 lin 2. â—â—d lin 7. â— Cor. 7.1 for p allwayes to set vsually and for q a man to set Christ. Because since I find that Flesh and Spirit togeather applyed vnto men doe r once signifie meerely the Body and Soule which then I thought every where did signifie in vs our corrupt and regenerat man Which oversight the Bishop spyeth not but in this place coÌ„firmeth indeed Finally to make an ende with your Fathers and Councels it is strang that you thus vainly boast of them 〈◊〉 135.327 saying they are a all wholy for you for this 1400. yeares space I have shewed before that your large claime proveth a very short gaine For in substance and full effect they are evideÌ„tly and generally against you and for vs. As for their denying that Christ Dyed in his Soule I
the Apostle mentioneth the i Ephe. 2.2 Ayre and that k cap. 6.12 on high as being the place of Divels Notwithstanding far be it from me to affirme that hell certainly is not beneath Yet your pretended scripturs are meerely forced to prove it As in the chief I have shewed already In the rest it will appeare likewise anon Howbeit wheresoever Hel indeed is though we do grant in it to be locally in the earth beneath vs yet every Opposition betwene Shammajim the Heavens or Skyes and Sheol doth not signifie the opposition betweene Heaven and Hel. This you shall never be able to prove Shammajim thus placed signifieth the Skyes not the very place of Heavenly glory in the presense of God which in English we call Heaven And Sheol thus placed signifieth not Hell the place of torments but it is taken thus 2. wayes Somtime for †a vast and deepe Gulfe only or pit in the earth Abyssus the bottom wherof we know not Amos. 9.2 Iob. 11.8 Psa 139.8 So doe a many of your places meane which you draw and wrest to signifie Hell Somtime for Ruine and Destruction or Abolishing of any visible Creatures from hence which seemeth to be the largest most proper sense of Sheol â—heols proper sense So doth it in Jsay signifie where Sheol is threatned to the King of Babel b Though thou be lifted vp to the Skyes Isa 14.15 yet shalt thou bee brought downe to Sheol that is in this place to an inglorious Destruction and No being in this word and thy carcase vnto the sides of the pit that is the Grave This the contrariety heere sheweth Thougâ— thou be lifted vp to the Skyes He meaneth not heere into the glory of the Saints of God in Heaven but lifted vp in great pomp and worldly glory as the Latin phrase meaneth also when they say ad sydera tolli Now saith the Prophet to this King of Babell Though at this time it be thus with thee yet surely thou shalt be brought down to the contrary point to an inglorious Destruction and a wiping out from the Earth Which sense of Isay is also very well confirmed by the like matter in Ieremy c Though Babel should mount vp to the Heavens â—er 51.53.4 and though she should defend her strength on high yet from me shall her Destroyers come saith the Lord. A sound of a cry cometh from Babel and of great Destruction from the Chaldeans c. Where that which Isay called Sheol Ieremy speaking of the very same matter nameth Destruction vtter laying wast and overthrowing of that City and State And so to come to our purpose A very Heâ—raisme d this is the very same phrase heere in Mathew touching Capernaum Thou Capernaum which art lift vp to the Heaven shalt be brought down to Hades that is to Destruction to an inglorious Not being any more in the world as before time it had ben â—â—des DestructioÌ„ Razing â—aking away Which also is confirmed by that which he addeth presently of Sodom that if they had had the meanes of repentance as Capernaum had Sodom might have remayned a City to this day Inferring by this that Capernaum for their greater contempt of God and his word deserved more then Sodom to be destroyed to becom no City Hitherto this is the first iudgment threatned to the state of the City Hades Destruction or an vtter razing out from the earth The 2. iudgment heere threatned followeth in the next verse Moveover I say vnto you that it shal be easier for them of the land of Sodom in the day of iudgment then for these Heere indeed is Hell threatned to them of Capernaum yet as touching that before there was nothing els but the overthrow and destruction of their Citie signifyed by that worde Hades applyed to the Citie as is before declared And contrary to this you haue not any piece of reason in al that “ Pa. 147 1â— 409. you say here about The world of Souls which †Pag. 403.409 you play withall Hades may and doeth signifie but yet then only when it is referred to deceased Soules not otherwise Next let vs view the Corinthes a Pag 408. 1. Cor. 1â— 55 O Death where is thy victorie O Hades O Destruction or O Power of Death where is thy sting Heere it is referred to the destruction of the whole and intire Persons of men taken away by death out of this worlde who in the end by this conquest and triumph over Death the power therof at the last day shal be restored to life againe in a true and perfit Resurrection and restitution This is the whole scope and drift of the Apostle heere and you graunt it But you inferre that therfore it is meant of Hel. Of Hell which way Because since by sinne Hell gat possession of both partes of man aswell of his body as of his Soule the full deliverance and conquest ouer Hell is not but in the Resurrection This is very vntrue Our full deliverance from Hell and from Satan is obtayned in this life as it is written b Luke 1.7 We being delivered from our enemies and from the handes of all that hate vs must serve him without feare all the dayes of our life in bolines and righteousnes before him That is we being heere truly iustified by his grace are fully freed and delivered from all the power of our enemies Satan is c Luke 11. 〈◊〉 Rom 8.33 Ioh. 8.51 5 5.24 conquered spoyled bound and cast out from vs. So that your speach is very bad and scandalous where you say d Pag. 216. The bodyes of the Saintes lying in their graves are in the Divells walke For then the Graves where bodyes ly senseles are a part of Hell properly taken At least the Deaths of the Reprobat and of the Children of God e Answerab to your doâ—trine pa. 24 touching the state of their bodyes till the resurrection are all one And men truly iustified are iustified but in their Soules Sinne remayning stil charged on their Bodies and therefore in their bodyes they remaine subiect to the power of Hell and to the curse of the Law and to the claime of Satan till the day of our Resurrection at the last iudgement You call it 〈◊〉 part of the â—ages of sin And thus the godly must pay a part of their own redemption and satisfaction for sinne And then Christ was not our only and absolut Redeemor If this be good doctrine let the godly iudge Your selfe overthroweth this enough Pag. 156. saying f He changed the curse of death and made it now a rest from all labours So that I hope the Bodyes of the dead Saintes are not in the * Divells walke Nor subiecâ—ed to the Râ—â—ge of Saâ—an much lesse are they g in the possession of Hell Pag 216. in the handfast of Hell Further you say vpon the text Pag. 178