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A97377 A most necessary & frutefull dialogue, betwene [the] seditious libertin or rebel Anabaptist, & the true obedient christia[n] wherin, as in a mirrour or glasse ye shal se [the] excellencte and worthynesse of a christia[n] magistrate: & again what obedience is due vnto publique rulers of all th[os]e [that] professe Christ yea, though [the] rulers, in externe & outward thinges, to their vtter dampnatyon, do otherwyse then well: translated out of Latyn into Englishe, by Iho[n] Veron Senonoys.; Von dem unverschampten Fräfel der Widertöuffer. English. Selections Bullinger, Heinrich, 1504-1575.; Véron, John, d. 1563. 1551 (1551) STC 4068; ESTC S113331 40,542 90

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sake onelye thoughe all thinges yea and your owne liues had bene taken from you ye ought to haue suffered and too haue refrayned from suche deuelisshe enterprises it had beene vnpossyble but the forenne natyons hadde come vpon vs. Prayse and lande bee gyuen vntoo the for euer O mercyfull father that thou dyddeste of thy mere mercye wythoute anye deseruynges or demerites of ours preserue our illustre and noble kyng with all hys dominions and Realms in this most parillous tyme of insurrectyon and tumult which these children of Belial dyd so vngodly styrre vp For what wyll ye haue vs to call you Good felowes Maynteners and defenders of the common weal Why I was loth at the first that these tumult insurrectyon makers shuld be called rebels and traitours By lykelyhode ye woulde be soo called Nay nay I was full loth at the fyrst I haue many to bear me record of the same that ye should be called rebelles or traytours because I thoughte those names to be to heynouse for you Agayn I had a good hope that ye would be wonne reclamed by some fayre and gentle meanes For who would haue thoughte so muche stubburnesse in you Farthermore I was afrayd that your rageouse madnes shoulde rather be set on fyre by suche wordes then asswaged It was I say sore agaynst my wyll that so horryble and odyouse names should be giuen vnto you at the fyrst but syth now that ye dyd persyst and some of you doo yet furyously persyst in geuyng the occasyons of suche most deuilysh interpryse being perswaded by noo maner of reason What may we ryghtly call you but rebelles and traytours and most extreame enemyes of the commune weale For all that ye go about is to vndo this noble and florysshyng Realme and moste vnnaturally to betray your owne naturall countrey vnto forenne nations and Princes I say vnto you that all youre mortall enemyes that compasse you round about set them all together Frenchmē Scottes Danes Turkes culd not haue founde or ymagined a more ready waye to destroy Englande then ye Englyshe men dyd For as a Realme be it neuer so small is inuincible yf the subiectes of it beyng knitted in loue do holde together so if they be once deuided agaynste them selues it is vnpossyble but that the same lande countrey Scilurus king of the Scitians must be brought to vtter desolation Whych thyng Scilurus a Kynge of the Scitians did moste liuely set furth by a goodlye exaumple Apophthegme which I woulde it were bothe written and paynted vpon euerye wall that men myghte learne thereby how strong a thing concord and vnytye is This kinge Maruail not that thys kynge had so many sonnes for it was lawfull vnto them to get childrē vpon many women as the histories do testify had .lxxx. sonnes whom a litle afore hys deathe he dyd call altogether biddynge them to bryng euery one of them an arowe Whych thing beyng done he cōmaunded that all the arowes shoulde be fast bounde together and so delyuered the bondell of arowes beyng thus fast boūd to euery one of his sonnes bydding thē to breake the arowes as they were faste bounde together in one bondell Which thynge because it was vnpossyble they refused to doo Then the kyng cōmaunded the arowes to be vnbounde and did geue to euery one of them an arowe too breake whyche they did lightely Then the kyng exhorting his sonnes to vnitye and concord did saye to them after thys maner By concorde small thynges do growe but by discorde great thinges are broughte to naughte If ye agre wythin youre selues and holde together ye shal be inuincible no man shall be able too ouercome you but if ye disagre and fal out emong your selues ye shall be both weake and easye to be ouercomen Shall not this heathē ethnike kinge rise in the day of iudgement condempne you that so vngodly do breake the vnitye peace and concorde of your owne naturall countrey Oh how many of the heathen which neither knew god nor his word did offer them selues manfully to die for the welfare preseruatyon of their owne naturall contrey these vnreasonable beastes to call them christians I am ashamed do go aboute and study all that they can to destroye it to betraye it and moste trayterouslye to bryng it to naught Oh what may I say now vnto you Repente for goddes sake and come to your ryght mynd againe for yf ye go on thus by vnlawfull meanes to shake of put away the plague and scorge that god hath sente to you for your detestable sinnes besides euerlasting dampnation and vtter vndoing of your own naturall contrey Rebelles doe alwaies come to a shamefull ende death of their bodyes ye shal incurre a most shameful deth of your bodies Reade all the histories both prophane and holy that euer were writē since the begynnyng of the world and ye shal your selfes fynd that alwaies rebels haue had a shamefull ende And no merueile for they do resiste the ordinaunce of god I myghte here repete and reherce the hystory of Corah Num. xvi cha Dathan and Abyram which with their wiues and children and xiiii M and .dcc that held with them did horrybly peryshe for theyr rebellyon Iudi. xii chap I myght allege how Ephraim made insurrection against Iephtha whom god had raised to be iudge ouer Israel of the which Ephraites .xlii. M. were miserably slain What nede I to bringe here the horrible tragedie of Absalon ii Reg. xviii chapiter and of Siba the sonne of Bocheri Loke ye your selues vpon the bookes of the kinges and of Paralippomenon ii Reg. xx cha or Chronycles and ye shall there fynde that the one beinge hanged vp by the lockes of hys heares in an oke was thristed thorough with .iii. spares with whome .xx. M. of the people were slaine and loste and that the other beyng pursued by Ioab and besyeged wythin Abel and Bethmaaka was by the councell of a wise woman beheaded his heade throwen ouer the wal to Ioab Dyd the people therfore that rebelled with hym escape vnpunished ii Reg. xxiiii chapiter Obiection No no The lord god hater of all rebellion tumult did afterwardes so sore plague Israel with pestilence that in three daies ther dyed .lxx. M. But thou wilt say This was because that Dauid had numbred the people of Israell and Iuda Solution had not obserued the lawe Let the scripture answere for me which saith And again the lord was wroth against Israel moued Dauid against thē Al ecclesiastical writers do agre that this was for the synne of rebelion that is to saye because that they with Siba rebelled against Dauid the annointed of the lord Oh the the same noble Historiograph Iosephus were traunslated in to Englyshe for your sakes There there should ye reade se how many M. of the Iewes were disconfited ouer throwen and slayn at sundry tymes because that they
rebelled against the Romaines But what nede we straunge and forenne examples We maye lerne at home how rebels do spede we may learne at home how they spede euer that resist the ordinaunce of god takyng most vngodly vpon them selues the thinge whiche belongeth only to the lord to his anoynted Sith then the god doth punish so greuously al rebels here in this world with fyer from heauen with pestilence sword in the other world with euerlasting tormentes of hell any childe may se and vnderstand how sore god doth detest and abhorre all rebellyon Therfore if ye tender the helth of your own soules if ye tender the weal of your own natural countrey yf ye tender your bodies liues leaue of betimes cease from such deuillish enterprises in thys your trouble afflictiō which doubtlesse doth happē vnto you eyther for your sinnes or else for a tr●al of your faith pacieence call vpon the Lorde with a contryt heart and he wyll be ye sure therof For he hath so promysed eyther molyfy the hearts of those tirantes that oppresse you that they shall be very fathers vnto you or else he wil shortly root thē out of the earth put into the hertes of the powers to shortē their armes Oure godlye yonge kynge whiche maye wel be compared wyth that godlye kinge Iosias shall shortlye delyuer his people from extortiō and oppressiō to rule his electe people wyth iustyce equytye Beare a while thinke not longe we haue a moste godly Prince toward which wtin a short space shal comfort vs as concerning our sorowfull trouble and afflictyon he shall wede out of hys Realme and dominions with the swerde of equitie al those bloud suckers that now as gredy horsleches do sucke the bloud of his people louing subiectes in the meane season quiet and paryfye your selues let euery man accordyng to his vocation laboure to lyue truly in this world to the mayntenaunce of the common weale Geue no more occasyon for the tender loue of god which so loued vs that he gaue his only begottē sonne for vs geue no more occasion I saye by your vnquiet behauiour to these worldelynges to blaspheme the gospell word of god All tumultes and insurrections are layde vpon goddes word and the ministers therof Do ye not both heare and se that al the insurrections tumultes and sedityons that haue now chaunced in our tymes are by them adscribed and layd to the word of god which by some of them is called new lernyng the ministers therof Verely it hadde bene better for you to haue bene cast with milstones aboute your necke into the depe of the sea there to haue bene drowned then by your sedycious tumultes to haue ministred such an occasion of offence for sayth the truth it selfe Wo Mat. xviii ch that is to saye euerlasting dampnation hangeth ouer the manne by whom the offence doth come This one thyng if we were trewe christians shuld be enough to fray vs from all vprores and insurrections Obiection But me thinke I heare yet some emong you which do grudge and saye Who in this world were he neuer so pacient could refrayne hym selfe for besydes the many folde wronges that we suffer dayly and hourely by thē they do so bitterly reuile vs at eueri second word most despitfully calling vs peysauntes and vilaines that no man can holde hys handes from theym Whom I am compelled to answer after thys maner Are ye Chrystans Solution or not I knowe that yf any man shuld say vnto you that ye are no christians ye wold be angrye with him Yf ye are christians that is to say the disciples of Christ do ye not thinke that it is enough and sufficyent for you to be as your maister Math. x cha But they dyd call your maister and sauioure Belzebub whiche is a thousand times worse These .ii. wordes Paysant and Villayne are trewly accordinge to the right sygnifycatyon of them expounded then Paysant or Villayne whiche wordes if they were well vnderstanded are nothyng at all reprochfull Here in thys matter plaine ignoraunce doth blynd you For paysaunt beynge deriued of this laten worde Paganus dothe properly betoken in Englysh a man of the countrey or that dwellethe in villages or vplande And the other word Vilayn doth also come of this lattin vocable Villanus and signifyeth none other thinge in our mother and vulgaire tongue but a fermer or fearme holder or else the dwelleth in villages Lo good people these be the reuilyng oprobrious wordes for the which ye do styrre vp al these enorme and greuous tragedies But go to what if they were the most reprochfull wordes that euer could be spoken with mouthe or thought with heart howe be it to tell the verye truthe I woulde that these frenche tearmes hadde bene lefte to the french men and that he that brought them fyrst ouer into Englande thereby to offende hys weake brethren had bene better aduysed oughte yee not to haue borne them pacyently for hys sake whyche for your saluation and helth of your soules dyd besydes all kyndes of ygnominie opprobriousnes and reproche suffer the most cruell and shamefullest death that euer in thys world coulde be ymagined or thought Anabaptistes and Libertius doo alwayes boste crake of their perfection Trulye ye wold be lothe to suffer death for hys sake sythe that ye can not abyde wordes Where is nowe that perfectyon that some of you do neuer cease to boaste and crake of emonge the symple and ignoraunte people A dygression Heare must I somewhat digresse from my purpose and declare what kynde of people they be that make thys busynesse and styrre vp contention in thys Realme and common weale The Anabaptistes do seke hunte after a carnall liberty in the gospell There be a sorte of men whych nowe at thys present houre that the euaungily call doctryne is purelye and syncerely preached do seeke nothynge else in the scriptures and gospell but a carnall and fleshly lybertye goyng aboute with their craftye and subtyll reasons and textes of the scriptures halfe alleged to perswade the ignoraunt people that they are not bounde to obey temporall rulers maiestrates These men syttynge vpon there ale benches whersoeuer they dare vtter theyr poyson conueniently do inculcate and beat into mens heads The erroneous opynyon of the anabaptistes concernyng the magistrates that no christian can laufully exequute the office of a maiestrate Which offyce of a maiestrate say they is neyther profytable nor yet necessary to a christiā common weale Wherfore away with these tirantes kyl them rote them out of the earth the contrarye to Christes word doctrine do most presumpteously take vpon them to be rulers or rather tyrantes ouer the people of Christ to whom he dyd so derely with the shedyng of hys most precious bloud purchase a perpetuall fredome and lyberty Thys is done commonly in those places where