might seeme to haue fled the brunt of your answere I am sorie that it fell out so For God is my witnesse I sought not mine own praise but did seek the truth Exâ—use my rashe enterprise in writing to you without anie acquaintance Let my loue of the truth which pricked mee for-warde and your challenge which set mee a worke excuse that fault if it was anie Far-well in the Lorde God giue vs al vnderstanding hearts Your freend though vnacquainted ALEXANDER HVME HIL his Reply Truth it is I did preach since a Leicock because I hard that M. Wisdome had set that opinion of yours abroche againe at Cosham I did heere also confirme mine Not because I am desirous to be contâ—tious but because I would haue no Christian man to doubt of the articles of his Faith you aske me what comforâ—able or necessarye matter you denye that wee doe preach I answere and I pray you consider oâ— it wee are borne in sinne how are we deliuered from sinne but by Christ which was conceiued by the holy Ghoste wee haue the magnitude of sinnes with Peter the multitude of sins with Mary Magdalen the turpitude of sins with the woman taken in adultery the infamy of sinnes with the Publican the diuturnity of sinnes with the theefe on the gallowes the cruelty of sinnes with paule and the recidiuation into sinnes with diuers of the Saints yet if wee repent wee are pardoned for Chrisâ—es sake who purely perfectly perpetualy obeyed the law of God By reason of our sins we ar subiect to al punishmeÌ„ts both corporal and spiritual and to the wrath of God All the punishments due to vs did Christ suffer vpon the crosse both in body and soul and therfore it is called his Passion He suffered in the Garden in Annas and Caiphas house in Pilats hal but vpon the crosse as you say truly he suffered the agonies of death tormenets of hell Further by reason of sin this was laide vpon the first Parentes Thou shalt die the death so by reason of this sentence not only the body was condemned to death but the soul to damnation To deliuer vs from these two punishments the soule of Christ went to hell and returned and the body of Christ that lay dead in the graue rose again mightily naturallye speedily and happely Beesides Christ rose in deede he gaue himselfe to be felte and handled herevpon wee are assured that he conquered death and hell He ascended into Heauen and therfore our praiers are hard when we pray vnto him and he giueth vs gifts for our ministry and so he shall come to iudgement at the last day to giue vs perfect blessednes You confess that Christ was borne in deede liued and fulfiled the law in the likenes of our flesh sinne excepted he dyed in deede he was buried in deede he rose and ascended in deede and yet you will not confesse that he personalye descended How can al these articles going before and comming after be vnderstode of the person of Christ and of his humanity not this Therefore you denying this personall descending of Christ into hell take away the greate comfort of our deliuerance from hell You say we are deliuered from hell by Christs death so are we too by his birth For if Christ had not bene borne he had not dyed so if there had not beene a seperation of the body and soule of Christ he could neuer haue conquered death or hell for by descending into the graue and that personally he conquered death hath deliuered vs from death by going downe into hell personallye he hath conquered hel And for this cause the scripture applieth it to the death of Christ because death was as Paul saith Phil. 3. A dissoluiton of body and soule And these 2. parts being dissolued Christ came from the graue and from hel and Christ did conquer both and triumph ouer them in him self as it is Col. 2. 15. These Jewes do aske asigne from heauen Math. 22 38. Luk. 11. 29. to whom Christ said A wicked and addulterous Generation doeth aske a signe but no signe shal be giuen them but the signe of Ionas the prophet for as Ionas was in the whales belly three dayes and three nights so shall the sonne of man bee in the hart of the earth three daies and three nights Which words Basilius Magnus interpreteth very wel These words a signe is a matter made manifest coÌ„teyning y â— declaration of some thing that was hidden as y â— signe of Ionas representeth y â— descending of Christ into hell and the resurrection of Christ and as Bede saith Rhab. also he gaue theÌ„ a sign but not from heauen because they were vnworthy to see it but from the depth of hel Therefore M. Hume this is a most comfortable doctrine that Christ doth deliuer vs from hell which albeit you agnise as well as wee yet because you deny the meanes where by it was purchased you deny a most comfortable doctrine for not only the body of Christ was in the heart of the earth but the son of man which signifieth the whole humanitye that is the soule and the body Ionas was in the whales belly aliue and yet came forth Christ was in the graue dead in flesh and aliue in hel and yet came forth Therefore to take away this maner of descending taketh away from the Church a singular comfort and openeth a gap to many errors confuted already by the Fathers For if Christ did conquer hel by the power of the Godhead only and not as he is a man what neede had he to take vpon him our nature but because as man he might be Lord not a heauen and the Angels but of the earth and of the inhabitants therof and of hell and the diuels You say the world is sory for me In the world saith Christ you shal haue affliction And he telleth me the world wil hate me I way not these things for I am noe man-pleaser nor lover of the world But if in my Sermon I had disagreed with Dauid Ezechiel Esay Peter Paule Christ himselfe 923 as you haue done in your an were I hope I should be both sory and ashamed Touching M. Chalfont whome you terme a man without iudgement and that he spake impudently and enuiously I neuer sawe him before that time and but once sence but by that speech and conference which I had with him I ford him to be learned and vâ—id of gail Such of his neighbours as I haue talked with did giue him y â— deserued praise of a learned and honest man And for asmuch as hee hath preached 926 sound doctrine in preaching the affirmatiue and that doctâ—in which is allowed by the learned conuocation of
that spoake breake Now heere beholding the maior and the minor two brasen vnbreakable walles you set all your teeth on the poore conclusion to pull it from them To take this place of this Psalme quite from vs you alledge the holie Ghost and Peter two sufficient witnesses because they referre this place to the resurrection and we to the passion Allace good Doctor vbiacumen tuum Doe not you see man that though the negatiue Thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell pertaineth to the resurrection yet the affirmatiue that his soule was in hell may pertaine to his passion Peter alledgeth the negatiue in the Psal to proue his resurrection and our question is not whether hee rose againe or not but whether the thing wherein he was is to bee taken for the place or the panges of hell And heere I muste needes confesse that this consideration hath driuen mee quite from Calvine whome in this place I first followed As for the place of the beleefe I am perswaded that his sense is moste agreable beeing godlie consonant to the Scriptures necessarie for the perfection of the creede not repugnant to the circumstances thereof and moste comfortable to a Christian conscience But in this place of this Psal now I see that Olevians opinion is truer more consonant to the rest of the text and more plaine against your drousie dreame Wherfore now I am perswaded that SHEOL is heer set for the state of the dead and my soule for mee as it is Psal 3. 2. Manie say to my soule that is to mee And Psal 7. 2. Least hee devoure my sonle lyke a Lyon that is mee And Psal 6. 3. My soule is sore troubled that is I am sore troubled So the sense must bee Thou wilt not leaue my soule in Hell that is mee amongest the deade That this must needes bee the true sense heereof I haue two reasons First that this was the SHEOL wherein Christes soule was not left whence hee rose againe as may appeare by this allegation of Peter But hee rose again from the graue and condition of the deade not from hell and condition of the damned Ergo the SHEOL wherein Christs soule was not left is the condition of the dead and not the place of the damned The answere here that he rose in soule and body the one from hell and the other from the graue will not holde for the name of resurrection belongeth onelie to the bodie because nothing ryseth againe but that which death laide downe So hath our beleefe the resurrection of the bodie not the resurrection of the soule This was M. Fieldes argument which did choake you in the act at Oxonford and hang so fast in your teeth that hee coulde not get it out of your mouth much lesse an answere to it The other is builded vpon the wordes of Peter Act. 2. 19. Men and brethren I may boldlie speake to you of the patriarch Dauid that hee is dead and buried and his sepulchre is amongest vs to this day In which wordes expounding this place of the Psalme Thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell nor suffer thy holie one to see corruption hee laboureth to proue that Dauid spake not this of himselfe but of the Messias that was to come of his loines His reason is because Dauid is deade and buried and his sepulchre remained amongest them as if he had said because Dauids soule was left in Hell and saw corruption For where the negatiue is not true there the affirmatiue muste bee true by the rule of contradiction Wherevpon thus I reason Dauids soule that is Dauid himself as I haue said before was left in the SHEOL wherin Christs soule should not be left But Dauids soule was left in the state and condition of death Ergo it was the state and condition of death wherein Christes soule was not left by this place The same argument may bee formed negatiuelie to take away your exposition of this place Dauids soule was left in the SHEOL wherof it is said in the Psalme Thou wilt not leaue my soule in Hell nor suffer thy holie one to see corruption But Dauids soule was not left in the place of the damned Ergo it is not the place of the damned whereof it is said in the Psalme Thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell nor suffer thy holie one to see corruption Wheras some alledge against this interpretation that it doeth violate the text taking the soule first for the whole man the whole againe for the bodie Let them consider that the condition of the dead expressed heere in the name of SHEOL pertaineth not to the body only but to the whole man Neither were it injurie to the text if it be so taken For the cup is set for wine and wine for the blood of Christ by Paull himself who vseth not to violate wordes These reasons therefore haue led mee from Calvine whome though I reuerence as he is well worthie as much as anie man yet I am not so maried to him howsoeuer M. Doct. is perswaded otherwise to folloâ—e him the bredth of a haire beyond truth and reason Hee may bee deceaued aswell as others though he hath plunged through manie deepes that haue devoured manie Nowe to returne againe and to followe vpon your walke you charge mee heere as euerie where with an vntruth To fasten it vpon mee you turne my wordes out of their figured coate into their bare skinne For whereas I say that Christ suffered the whole tormentes of hell vpon the crosse taking the drosse by a Synecdoche for the whole passion as he did before mee which said God forbid that I delight in any thing but in the crosse of Christ The preaching of the crosse is to manie foolishnes Christ reconciled vs to God by his Crosse You tell mee that it is most vntrue because he did not suffer his whole torments on the wodden Crosse which Symon the Cyrenian did beare on his backe And to make my wordes more odious you do them more injurie For whereas I say hee suffered the whole tormentes of Hell on the Crosse a thing defend-able you charge mee as saying he suffered all his torments vpon the Crosse meaning the Crosse of wood a thing without shewe of truth In the ende to fasten another little faulte on me it is but blasphemie you wring my last wordes in the fame presse For whereas I say that a word of double signification standeth at the courtesie of the reader to be taken as shall seeme most probable meaning that there is nothing in the word it self to lead the mynde to one signification more then another but depends vpon the probable circumstances and drift of the text you charge mee as making the Scriptures like a nose of waxe to bee set which way mens fantasie will bend it a thing as farre out of my penne as out of my heart and as far out of my heart as it is out of your heart to take my
is the other For as Athanasius saith in his booke of the incarnation of the word Death Could not prevaile on the humaâ—e soule of Christ to tye him there neither corruption inâ—ading his body by â—iranny could shewe her force on him to putrefaction as things not well seene vnto for to thinke so of him were a wicked thing for even as Adam had a double punishement inflicted on him for his disobedience the on was on his body earth thou art and to earth thou shalt returne and so by this decree the body of the Lord departed vnto the earth but to the soule hee said Thou shalt dye the death Hereof it commeth to passe that man is deuided into 2. parts and is condemned to depart to 2. places and therefore it was necessary that the selfe same Iudge which had made this decree that hee by himselfe being vnder the colour of a condemned man shuld free from that sentence all beleuers Here you see by this learned Father that Christs soule went to Hell to deliuer our soules from hell and his body to the graue to deliuer vs from death by this means both body and soule personally and not potentially as you teach working our deliuerance from death and hell haue those prerogatiues which Dauids soule and body had not And for this coâ—sideration though the one was in the graue and the other in hell yet both were in the handes of the Lord. Heere then wee must learne what the hands of the Lord do signifie Sometime the hand of god doth signifie the Sonne of God Psal 144. 7. Send thy hand from aboue Sometime it signifieth the power of God Psalm 136. 12. With a mighty hand and outstretched arme Thirdly the bountifulnes of God Psal 145. Thou openest thy hand and fillest euery liuiug thing with thy blessing Foâ—rthly it signifieth consolation Ezec. 3. 22. The hand of the Lord was with me comforting me Fiftly grace Psal 118. 16. The right hand of the Lord â—ath done valiantly Sixtly it signifieth the gift of prophecie Ezec. 8. The hand of the Lord fel there vpon me Seuenthly mercy Psal 37. 24. Though he fall he shall not be cast off for the Lord putteth vnder his hand Eightly the protection of the Lord Psal 31. 15. My times are in thy hand Ninthly the aide of the Lord Psal 74. 11. Why withdrawest thou thy hand Tenthly the punishment of the Lord Iob. 19. 21. Haue pitie on me ô yee my frinds for the hande of the Lord hath touched me Lastly it signifieth the Gouernment of the Lord Psal 95. 4. In his hand at al the corners of the earth This place therefore must needes haue this construction into thy consolation mercie protection and gouernment I will commend my soule I hope you your selfe commende your soule into the handes of God euery day but yet you minde not to goe to heauen immediatly So saide Dauid Psal 30. 5. Into thy handes I commend my spirit but hee went not to heauen in manye yeares after neither did Christ ascende into heauen in many dayes after but went downe to hell where it was in the protection and gouerement of the Godhead which as you confesse descended into hell For as we being in the damned world are in the protection and hand of the highest so Christ being in the place of the damned after a wonderfull manner was also in the Lords aide and protection by meanes whereof he hath wrought our deliverance from hell Therfore proue you that Chirst went straitway to heauen and you shal effect that which many of your side haue attempted but neuer yet any coulde bring to passe It is written of Procustes that if any were too short for his bâ—â— he would not stretch theÌ„ out and make them fit for his lodging so you this place being too short to fit your wast will enlarge it with a word immediatly which is not the place primitiue or derivatiue expressely or by way of implication Moreouer where you say if I will answer this place I must proue that he that mindeth to go to hell doth vse these words I wonder that you dar vse such blasphemons speeches for hereby you insinuate that Christ was but a meere man that other men haue a part in the work of our redemption aswell as Christ For as he is our only Sauior so as Luth. saith on Gen 21. Chapter This was singular in Christ Thou shalt not leaue my soule in Hell nor suffer thy holy one to see corruption for this soule could not be deteined in hell nor his body in graue For as this was singular in Christ that hee did giue vp his ghost so was it singular in him to go to hell and returne again Ambrose saith Tradidit spiritum suum quia non inuitus amisit quod enim emittitur volunt arium est quod amittitur necessarium He gaue vp the ghost because hee lost not his soule against his will for that which is emited is voluntarie but that which is amitted is necessary Theophilact sayth hee cryed out with a loude voice and gaue vp the ghost for he had power to lay downe his life and take it vp again Now when you can proue that you or any of your side haue this power in you to dye when hee will and liue againe when hee will then will I prooue that hee that speaketh these words Into thy hands I commende my spirit hath an intent to goe to Hell But as Christ his birth was a singular thing in him so was his death buriall descending in to hel resurrection and assension into heauen Eccle. 8. 8. Man is not Lord ouer the spirite to retaine the spirit And Iohn 10. 18. Christ saith No man taketh my life from me but I lay it downe of my selfe I haue power to lay it downe and power to take it vp againe By these two places it is euident that no man can lay downe his owne spirite but the only sonne of God had that prerogatiue and therefore as the laying downe of his spirit and the taking vp of his spirit againe was wonderfull so was the state of the soule and body during the time of the seperation of the parts of the humanity singular and wonderfull Absurdities admitted in this sect by the D. First that Christ did descend in soule and bodie take it how he will is absurde If he meane into Hell taking Hel as he would haue it that is in soule onlie If into the graue it was in bodie onelie If into the wombe of the Virgine It was in Diuinitie onelie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Second If Christes soule had not gone to the locall Hell Dauids must and his and mine contrarie to the suffiencie of Christs sacrifice Third That Christes soule and bodie besides innocencie had other prerogatiues then Dauids had Contrarie to
your self or half so indifferent as men do wish that wish you well you might haue seen that the graue is vsed by a Metonymi◠for all the dead whether layd vp in the bowels of the earth or floting in the sea or devoured of rauenous beasts For the Hebrue SHEOL doth not so much signifie the graue which for want an other word we are forced to set for it by a Metonymia as that which the greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doeth better expresse by the privation of light or life separating all the dead which in Latine be called inferi and manes from the living which they call superstites And not comprysing onelie them which are buried in a graue as you do ignorantly suppose heere nor the damned as you do as wiselie hold in another place Thus the very heathens did vse this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith Homer that is hee sent manie worthie soules not to the hell of tormentes that had beene a bad rewarde for their worthinesse but to the dead or to the graue So is the same word vsed by Nonnus a Christian Poet of great antiquitie in his Paraphrase vpon Iohn cap 11. speaking of Lazarus who you will not saye I hope was in Hell 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is and hearing amongst them that were dead rotten the fugitiue corps returned again out of hel The same authour in the same place vseth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the same signification whence the Latines haue borrowed their Barathrum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is who raised vp the dead Lazarus skipping out of the smokie gulfe and returning from the dead So the Latines vsed their Orcus and Tartarus not deuiding the damned and the saued but the dead and the living by the privation and habit of light and seeing Wher you aske mee why Dauid should speake of their temporall death which is common to all I tolde you if you will be tolde it to solace himself by the rememberance of their malice that it was not euerlasting but should cease with their short liues You conclude this section with a new syllogisme with protestation to good M. Hum◠so you call him to answere it plainelie The lower partes of the earth signifie not the graue but hell Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth Ergo Christ discended into Hell Now M. Hume to deserue your good name first denies the maior secondlie he replyes to the minor that in his judgement the lowermost partes of the earth that Christ descended into may wel be taken for the base and meane estate that the sonne of God discended into vpon the earth The sonne of a Carpentar borne in a stable cradled in a cratch and living in a base estate without a hole to hide his head in was even the lowest and basest partes of the earth Hee could not well goe lower Thus Hume bids you goe your way and take this for an answere HVME Sect. 9. YOur other places be I wil pearce through all the lowermost partes of the earth and looke on them that bee a sleepe Eccles 24. And they shall be cast downe into the lowermost parts of the earth and sleep in the middest of the vncircumcised Ezech. 31. 18. which two places by your leaue cannot be well meant of Hel. Except that you can perswade vs that there is sleepe that is rest and quietnes in Hell but of the graue and state of the dead whereof wee haue as commonlie almoste as stones in the streete he did sleepe with his Fathers The same wordes ERETS TACHTITH which you say doth signifie properlie Hell be so vsed by the Prophet David Psal 139. 14. That they can no wise bee taken in that signification except it can be proued that Dauid was fashioned and made in Hell His wordes bee these My bones are not hid from thee though I was made in a secrete place and fashioned beneath in the earth Here Beza doeth well obserue that the place of the Apostle which you alledge may fitlie bee applied to the sense of this place and note vnto vs the discense of Christ into the wombe of the Virgine HIL his Reply FIrst you say the place quoted by me Syrac 24. 37 maketh not for the proofe of my assertion If you had considered what went before and what followeth you wold haue bin of another mind For before in the 8. verse is saide I alone haue gon round about al the compas of heauen and haue walked in the bottome of the depth Which depth Pellicanus alearned writer doth interpret abyssum mortis inferorum the depth of death and hel Yea the whole Chapter speaketh of the Sonne of God and of his wondrous workes in sauing mankinde of the which this is on that he was not only aliue among the liuing but after death his bodye was among the dead bodyes and his soule among the soules in hell which hee calleth the lower parts The like scripture to this is in Iob. 38. 16 17. Hast thou entered into the bottom of the sea or hast thou walked to seeke out the depth haue the gates of death bin opened vnto thee or hast thou seene the gates of the shadowe of death These words are thus opened by Martin Borrhauius in his learned Commentaries vpon Iob. I haue dwelled in the highest places and my throne is in the pillar of the cloudes I haue gone rounde about the compasse of heauen aboue and haue wallted in the flouds of y ◠sea I pearce through all the lower parts of the earth Haue those in hell or the dead bin searched out of thee dost thou knowe their estate and condicion and what shall happen to their bodyes hereafter and what doth happen to their soules now The force of death and of hell hee maketh maniefest by the names of gates as it is manifest in that scripture and the gates of hell shall not prevaile against thee By these words it is euident that the nethermoste partes of the earth Syrac 24 37. and Zalmaueth the Hebrue word Iob. 38 17. doo signifie hell and that none but the Sonne of God aboue hath personaly shewed himself in all these places For the place in Ezechiel that it maketh most significantly for my purpose I wil proue it by Esay Ezech and diuers other both learned modest writers Esay 14 9. handling the same matter saith Hel beneth is moued for thee to meet thee at thy comming And Ezechiel in the 15. and 16. verses calleth it hell plainly Sith then both the prophets call it hell how dare you to interpret the graue that the nethermost parts of the earth do signifie hell I prooue it out of the 12. ver of Ezechiel And the strangers haue destroyed him euen the terrible nations and they haue left him vp on the montaines and in all the vallies his branches are broken Munster
end you ad that the Apostle doth shewe vs how he was dead and how he was aliue by adding dead flesh and quickened spirit The verie text as I take it will denie you this for it hath not that the spirit was quickened and the fleshe killed but that Christ was killed in the fleshe and quickened in the spirit which is all one as if he had said that the suffered death as he was man and ouercame death as he was God And this Paull doeth speake in other wordes that he was crucified in his infirmities yet liveth he through the power of God Fourthlie you say that the Scripture doeth joine this his going and preaching close to his passion As if it had said As soon as he had suffered he went and preached This as if includeth no necessarie matter We expect demonstration and wil not be caried with as and if Fiftlie you argue out of the 6. of Genesis that the preaching of Noah is attributed to the third person of the Deitie and not to the second The wordes be these My Spirit shall not alwaies striue with man because he is but flesh Which wordes fewe or rather no interpreters that euer I saw expound as you doe of the third person of the Deitie Tremelius and Iunins whose great panies learning and judgement all sinceare hearts do reuerence expound them thus I will not long dispute with my self saieth the Lorde what to doe with these men for my sentence shall stand that except they spedelie repent I wil destroy them Neither maketh it much against vs though it were as you would haue it For seeing the actions of the Deitie are cōmon to all the three persons he erreth not that giueth thē to any of the three So doth the scripturs in many places attribute the resurrectiō of Christ sometimes to the Father somtimes to the sonne and sometimes to the Spirit of sanctification And Christ himselfe telleth vs that whatsoeuer the Father doth the same he doeth also After this you object that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is disobedient some-time doth separate the time of their disobedience and his preaching But heere I must put you in minde that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is went disobedient preached be all of one tense in the Greeke and must needes be referred to one time so that hee went and preached to them euen then when they were disobedient And this the word disobedient doth confirme For to whome I pray you were they disobedient but to the spirit that preached to them As for the adverbe sometime it is not set heere to separate words of one time but to distinguish the time of their inprisonment which was present from the daies of their rebellion which was past in the dayes of Noah when the long patiēce of the Lord exspected their amendement Whereas you argue that this cannot bee spoken of Noah his preaching because he preached to men and not to Spirits I am perswaded that no man can preache to men and not to their Spirites because hee that teacheth a man instructeth his Spirit which is his reasonable soule And yet heere you may marke if it please you that there be two things heere spoken of preching prison the on pertayning to these spirits when they were men with spirits the other now that they are onelie spirits and that therfore the Apostle did discreetlie choose the name spirit which is common to both these tymes Lastlie you charge this construction with violēce for that we take the word spirit in one place for the Deitie of Christ and streight way againe for the spirits of men in prison I hope you will not denie but that the word is vsuall in both significations that it is no wrong to giue words their own significations when the drifts and circumstances of the place doth requyre them Hitherto I haue dealt with your objections against Beza Nowe I will proue with vnfallible reasons that your sense cannot stand with this text You take the word flesh onlie for the bodie of Christ which died and was buried and the word spirit for his humane soule which you beare vs in hand did descend into hell and did preach there to the soules that had ben disobedient and rebellious in the dayes of Noab If this your conceit shall go for current that which the Apostle speaketh heere of Christ may be verified as well of anie other man For when we die our soules die no more then his did But let vs look a little nearer the matter The spirit heere as it appeareth by the text doeth signifie that which gaue life to that that was dead That I trust was not his humane soule but his deuine and heauenlie spirit Thirdlie in this Participle mortified is comprised death which giuen to Christ is neuer taken in al the Scriptures for the temporal death of his bodie onlie but whatsoeuer Christ suffered either in soule or bodie for the redemption of our soules and our bodies doth compryse his whole passion Which if it bee true then the word flesh must be the whole subject of all this passion that is both his soule and body or the whole man Christ For hee suffered as well in soule for our soules as in bodie for our bodies or else he had beene but half a Redeemer Fourthlie seeing his bodie was quickned that is restored from the graue as well as his soule from hell If you take spirit heer for his humane soule then shal you confound those things that the Apostle doth distinguish attributing that to the soule alone which is commō both to the soule and the bodie Fiftlie seing quikned is to receaue life either which it neuer had or els had lost the soule cannot be said to be quickned because it neuer lost life after that it once liued with the bodie Heere you tell vs that quickened is to be deliuered from miseries and sorrowes Howe the English word may be taken I leaue it to the discretion of the discreete and indifferent reader But sure I am it will proue a hard thing to finde that signification either in the Latine word viuificari or the greeke word Zoopoteisthas which bee so mixed with life that if they signifie deliuerie from miseries then life it self must signifie miseries and sorrowes which though they follow on it are neuer signified by it If this deuise may stand you wil ouerthrow the Antithesis betweene dead and quickened For if quickned doth not signifie a restitution to life what contrariety hath it with mortefied or dead which signifieth the extinguishing of life Sixtlie spirit doeth heere signifie that which was free from death and the violence of his enemies This I hope you will not say was his humane soule wherein hee suffered the death of the soule that is the torments of Hell as well as in bodie the death of the bodie Seuinthlie the soule of Christ could not
suffered a violent death For thanatotheis being deriued of thanateo must needs signifie put to death Now I hope you wil not say Christ was put to deth in soul body but in body only And wher you say that Christ suffered in soule aswell as in body that is true that is gathered not of thanatotheis y â— is killed but out of these words antecedent for Christ suffered the iust for the vniust No reasonable man but hee will say that the sufferings of Christ are comprised rather in the word suffered then in y â— word killed To your fourth reason I reply that Christ was raysed from the dead but it is specially signified in the word resurrection ver 21. therfore I do not confound those things that are distinguished but your selfe for you make suffered and killed all one and quickned and the resurrection all one and so mak not only a confusion but a tautology and needelesse repetition which neuer was read in the word of God To your fift argument where you say zoopoiâ—isthai is to receaue life I confesâ—e it is to be made aliue Then you vrge it can not be spoken of y â— soule which neuer lost life Then by y â— same reason more strongly it can not be spoken of the Godhead which hath doth shal liue for euer for God caÌ„ not receaue life but y â— soule is said to liue when he is out of the body not because he liued not before but because y â— body doth hinder y â— actions of the soule Iohn 11. 25. He that beleeueth in mee though he were dead yet shall he liue Sap. 9 15. The corruptible body is heavie vnto the soule the earthie mansion keepeth downe the minde that is full of cares 2. Cor. 4 16. Therfore we faint not but though our outward man perish yet our inward man is dayly renewed Heere Paul sayth the weaker the body is y â— stronger is his soule therefore the death of the body is the life of the soule To drawe to ane ende your Antithesis of the Deuinitie humanitie is answered before For your Antithesis must be of things contrary or at the least diuers and seperate but as you affirme truly the Godhead was never seperated from the humanitie therefore this antithesis is of the body and soule which at this time were deuided and not betweene the deity and humanitie which were alwaies vnited wherfore this bulwarke I can assure you will stand and you haue ouershot both it your self in attempting to ouerthrow it For the very scope of the Apostle is this all Christians must suffer afflictions for well doing for Christ did not only suffer both in body and soule but also was put to a shamefull death in his body and in his soule went downe to the soules in hell which were vnbeleeuers in the dayes of Noah but Christ did arise againe from hel and the graue and ascended both in body soule to heauen therfore shal you that suffer for wel doing be deliuered from death and hel by his merits and goe vp into heauen and be partakers of his glory as you haue ben partakers of his affliction Moreouer as you referre mee to reade Bezas greate notes one this text so I pray you to reade Aretius handling this place whose words ar these Generally sayth Aretius Pet. repeateth three effectes of Christs death if you marke it wel The first pertaineth to the damned The second to the elect The third the person of Christ The first was declared in his descending in to hell The second in his resurrection The third in his ascention into heauen This is the true and naturall meaning of this place which wee will follow leauing the intrications of other interpretations I willinglye confesse this place is very hard for Augustine doubteth of it Luther douteth of it how it is to bee vnderstoode but this obscurity aryseth not of the place but of the varietie of interpretations If thou marke the plainnesse of the place the matter will be easye but that pleaseth not all men therefore that euery on may establish his owne sence they apply the words of the Apostle Peter to their owne conceit But leauing these let vs imbrace that which the words do teach vs in the which if we attaine to the truth it is well if not yet they shall bee probable because they haue warrant out of the scriptures and leane to the very letter to reto otherwise it is certain the knowledge of man to be vnperfect in many questions of holie scripture of the which the Apostle doth warne vs 1. Corin. 15. For now wee knowe vnperfectlie I haue sayd here is declared three effects of Christs death which differ in time are set in order in the Creede The first effect is that Christ being dead denounced eternal paines to the wicked in hell The words of the Apostle are these In which spirite he went and preached to the spirits detained in prison I take the place simply of the descence into hell for so the words do plainly sound and I see al the Fathers so to interpret them Augustine Epist 99. and Ciprian doth manifestly interpret this place of the descending into Hel. Neither doth the word prison hinder this Interpretation which in the Apocal. 20. 5. is taken for hel When a thousand yeers shal be fulfilled Satan shall be losed out of his prison Therefore the prison that Peter heere speaketh of is the place deputed to the damned Hyther came Christ as we confes in the Creede He went downe into Hell where Hell is it is a foolish curious question to enquire sith no man coÌ„ming to that place euer returned but only Christ Furthermore what Christ did there Peter expresseth he preached to the spirits that is he declared that he shewd himselfe manifestly to the world and made that dire and mornefull sermon namely to y â— wicked that the mirit of his death did nothing pertaine vnto them but by his presence were confirmed those punishments of the which Noah and other prophets had forwarned them And the tyme of this Preaching I referre not to the tymes of Noah but to the tyme of hys descending into Hell Wherevnto agreeth the worde pneumasi that is spirits for hee preached to the spirits that is to dead and not to liuing men Thus sarre Aretius I could heere alleage many other newe Writers whiche are of my iudgement but because you yeelde them no credite therefore of purpose I will omit them HVME his Reioynder to the 12. sect THis berrie is so confused that I can not finde where to enter my firret First I prooued that Beza whome we follow in this place doth no violence to the wordes but vseth them as hee findeth them vsed by Iohn Paull and Peter Which foundation beeing laide I answere your
10. reasons and put other 10. to the other scale to counter-weigh them You neither defend your owne nor answere mine in order as they ly But like a mad Dog snatch heere one and there another and let them goe that you cannot bite I cannot follow your steppes they be so crooked Wherefore I will walke on my first steppes and seeke your answeres where I can finde them That which I say of the vse of the words you confesse and diuers of my reasons you slip without an answere The first of my reasons was from these wordes mortified in the flesh and quickened in the Spirit Thus If flesh heere doth signifie the body and spirit the humane soule then nothing in these words is spokeÌ„ of Christ that may not be verified of other men But in these words some singular matter is attributed to Christ that other men are not capable of For we cannot say that Augustine Ierome or Cyprian are mortified in the flesh and quickened in the spirit in that sense as it is heere spoken of Christ Ergo flesh is not the bodie and spirit the humane soule of Christ That which you answere of his desceÌ„ding into Hell and returning thence is not comprised in these words wheron my argument is builded though you gaue them your owne liverie and cloathed them in your owne cullours The second was this The Spirit heer doth signifie that which gaue life to that which was dead But the humane soul gaue not life to that that was dead Ergo the spirit doth not signifie the humane soule Heere you denie the maior and alleadge against the 〈…〉 which you call ours and should bee yours as well as ours if you and others of 〈…〉 highlie 〈…〉 in the flesh and 〈…〉 mortified as hee was man and quickened as hee was God by himselfe According to that of Iohn I haue power to lay downe my life and I haue power to take it vp againe Take your note of in and by and make a wheele-barrow of it But you moue me heere another question of some importance and craue an instance if I can in all the Scripture Howe one word in one period can carie two significations You are not I hope so verie an novice in Gods booke as you make your selfe Haue you not read Let the dead burie their dead Or labour not for the meat that perisheth but the meate that lasteth c. Or Who so will saue his life shall lose it Or Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it Or God is a spirit and will be worshipped in spirit wher you haue the same word in both significations O howe you would be-slouen mee if you could finde such a hole in my hose Now I feare nothing but that you craued an instance out of the olde Testament The third was If death whensoeuer it is attributed to Christ in the Scriptures compriseth the whole passion the fleshe in this text must be the subject of the whole passion that is the whole manhoode of Christ But deth is neuer attributed to christ but for the whol passioÌ„ Ergo flesh must be the subject of the passion that is the whole manhood of Christ Heer you denie the minor and like a skilfull Logician giue instance in the questioÌ„ If you haue not forgot your olde logicke the argument and the thing argued should not be one You supplie the imperfection of this answere with two arguments 〈…〉 that death in this place cannot signifie the passion 〈…〉 Your first reson is that the passion is mentioned before in the word suffred Be it so Yet it may bee repeated in more speciall tearmes By your reason in the beleef where a repetition is lesse tollerable crucified and died belong not to the passion because they are expressed before in the word suffered Suffering which may be in torturing whipping and imprisonment is too slacke a tearme to expresse the hellish tormentes of Christs passion The other is if mortified pertaine to the soule and bodie it will followe that the soule is also mortall You tell mee out of Athanasius in the reply to my fift section that by the double punishment inflicted on Adam the soule should die the death And I heard you preach in our Ladie Church at Sarum That when it was saide to Adam thou shalt die the death the meaning was he should die the death of soule and bodie Now if you wil apply these two significations of death to Christ the one to the bodie and the other to the soule I hope this objection wil neither scratch nor byte My fourth reason was this In this Antithesis mortified in the flesh and quickened in the spirite morfied belongeth not to the spirit nor quickened to the fleshe but mortified belongs to the soule for it died the death of the soule and quickened to the 〈◊〉 for it receaued life againe Ergo flesh is not the bodie onlie and spirit the humane soule To this you answere that Christ was raised from the dead and that was signified in the word resurrection vers 21. and therefore you do not confound these distinguished things antitheticallie opposed But wee that make mortâ—â—ed suffered quickned resurrection all one How this may answere mee I leaue it to the â—ead that bred it to explane But you do vs wroÌ„g we make not mortified suffered one c. Suffered and quickned ar tearms more general mortified raised againe more speciall expressing things more plainlie and particularie which were touched before more covertâ—â— and generallie My fift reason was To be quickened is to receaue life which the thing that is quickened either neuer had or els had loste But the soule had life in the bodie and neuer 〈◊〉 after Ergo the soule cannot bee quickened To this you answere nothing but tell vs by the same reason it can much lesse pertaine to the Deitie Thus thinking to wound vs with our owne weapon you strike short and with the back drawe blood at your owne brow I told you in my answere to your second objection that quickened is not heer attributed to the Deitie but to the whole Christ by the participatioÌ„ of proprieties How can you excuse your self heere of wilfull falsification But you mend the matter with a more sufficieÌ„t answere out of Ioh. That the soule of the beleeuer liueth though hee were dead What then Iohn telleth not your tale that the soule of the beleeuer is quickened when hee is dead That it liueth is not the question The burden of the bodie which you alledge out of the book of Wisd loadeth the soule but killeth it not And therfore when it is deliuered of that load it is not quickened but releeued And the renewing of the inward man which you alleadge from Paule quickneth not the soule being dead but addeth courage and comfort to the living and languishing soule by Gods promises Heere I see you are quite thrust froÌ„ your hold at Chippenham that
participle ousi in that kind of phrase in Greek most necessarily alwaies implyed You reply not one worde to the purpose but charging vs with that we neuer spake nor thought that we take these spirits for the men in Noahs time you alleadge Christs words against vs Luk. 24. 39. But if you were a man that coulde marke the wordes of them that dispute against you take them as they are spoken you should finde that wee say not that hee preached to the spirites in the dayes of Noah But to the spirites that nowe are in prison and were disobedient in the dayes of Noah If you can anie waies turne Christs wordes in Luke to confute this you neede not to care what thinges you take vpon you to proue If you can proue that Noah preaching to the men of his time did not preach to their Spirites or that these spirits in prison which Peter speaketh heer of were not the same that rebelled in the dayes of Noah you may driue vs from this holde otherwise you may throw your cap at vs. Last of all you charge our construction with violence I answered that you do vs wrong charging vs with things that none of vs do speak Which answer you passe by with silence and so allow it for currant To these you haue added two new ones which to take away all scruple I will answere also First say you if the word phylake doth signifie hel then Christ did descend into hell But phylake doeth signifie Hell Ergo c. I denie the maior it will not follow though phylake doeth signifie hell as heere it doth indeed Metaphoricallie that therefore Christ descended into Hell neither doth the place that you quote of Math. proue that you would haue except you can proue also that phylake hath no other signification then the prison of vtter darknesse c. Your other reason is He that was killed dead and quickened did preach But it was Christ that was killed dead and quickned Ergo it was Christ that preached and not his Deitie Christ and not his Deitie M. Doctor Can Christ preach and not his Deitie You may say what you will If I had let fall such a word you would haue cried Crucifige But to answere you I denie the maior It is against the text He was mortified that is killed and dead in the fleshe and that preached not Hee was quickned in the spirite and in that hee went and preached That which preached was neither killed nor dead neither was it self quickened but Christ was quickened in it These are all your objections In my answere to your sermon I answered 10. of them You haue replyed to 6. of them and to the other 4. you haue giuen a pardon at large neuer to be troubled by you Your six replyes I haue heere rejoyned too and haue met your newe supplies at the encounter and haue sent them home to you for new help All your forces thus defeated and so mightie and resolute an armie against you if there bee anie conformitie in you if your neck be not so stiffe that no bridle can turn it I hope you will get you to Chippenhames pulpit and performe your promise HVME Sect. 13. THese things being thus I pray you good M. D. seeing you woulde haue vs vndoubtedly to beleeue that Christ descended into Hell Tel vs vndoutedly to what ende he should descend thither I trust you will not teach vs neither Augustine neither Ieromes lesson that he went thither to deliuer prisoners As for that new lesson that he went thither to triumph it standeth not with the maner of conquerours to shew the glorie of their conquest amongst the conquered but amongst them to whom the ioy of the victorie doth appertaine and for mine owne part I haue oftentimes read the name of Hell ioyned with shame and ignomie but to this day I neuer hard it ioyned with triumph and glorie Neither seemeth it probable that if Christ had purposed to shewe the pompe of his conquest he woulde haue done it before his resurrection lest being yet in the handes of his enemie he had meâ—t him with the proverbe Ante victoriam c. To these reasons may be added that seeing his triumph was celebrated at one instance in Heauen Earth and Hell if the presence of his soule was required as you beare in hand it will followe that his soule was at one instant in these three places which is contrary to the nature of a soule You adde two other causes to binde the deuill and deliuer vs from hel You bring vs many places of Scripture to confirme this geare Gen. 3. 15. The seed of the woman shal break the Serpents head Ose 13 15. O death I will be thy death O hell I wil be thy destructioÌ„ 1. Cor. 15. 55. O death where is thy sting O hell where iâ— thy victorie In all which places there is not a sillable sounding that Christ descended into hell As for his triumphing ouer Hell we neuer denied it and do avouch that he performed that moste gloriouslie by the power of his God-head which did present his victorie ouer his enemies hell and death both to heven earth and Hel without the presence of his soule HIL his Reply YOu aske me why Christ descended into hell and yet you coÌ„fes I noted three ends of Christs descending into hell the one to triumph ouer the Diuels the other to binde the Diuels and to take away their power ouer mankind the 3. to deliuer vs from hell There was also set downe a fourth end that is to manifest his death vnto those in hel and to reproue them of their incredulity and heer labouring to catch me in a snare you are fallen into it your selfe for firste you say Christ conquered hell on the Crosse then as hauing forgotten your selfe you aske this question with admiration Howe could he conquer being in the graue Is it likly that hee would triumph before his victory First you stoutly affirme that he had conquered then you boldly deny it CoÌ„neniet nnlli qui secuÌ„ dissidet ipse Next you say you haue not read the name of hell but ioyned with shame and infamie why do you write then that the Godhead did triumph ouer hel Did you not read your owne writing I am sure in this place 1. Cor. 15. 55. O death where is thy sting O hell where is thy victory The nam of hel is ioined with triumph But you answere these places with a flat negatiue heere is not a sillable to proue the descending of Christ into hell I am sure Paule proueth heer the resurrection of Christ and of our soules and how can he proue the resurrection vnlesse hee proue the knitting together of the body and soule for as death is the parting of body soule so resurrection is the reuniting of them togither againe and heer Paule
sheweth that the body comming out of the graue the soule from hell Christ did conquere both And therefore it is not the deity as you say but the humane nature of Christ y â— did vanquish death Hell Heb. 2. 14. For as much then as the children were partakers of flesh and bloud he also him selfe likewise took parte with them that hee might destroy through death him that had power of death that is the Diuil There fore Hemingius on the Col. 2. saith As on the Crosse he conflicted with the diuill so by the glorious descending into hell resurrection and ascention hee did triumph Therfore these places proue his descending into hell as well as the buriall for the reason of y â— apostle is this Christ cam out of the graue ergo he conquered death and Christ came out of hell ergo he ouer came hell Therefore thus I reason against you that did conquere which did fight but the human nature of Christ did fight ergo it did also conquere is gone vp into heauen to whom the Angels powers and mightes be subiect 1. Pet. 3. 22. Col. 2. 25. phil 2. 9. 10. Eph. 1. 20. 21. 22. Therefore sith all these Scriptures do witnes that Christ as man did triumph and is exalted and hath al power I doubt not but in your next answere you will reforme your iudgement HVME his Reioynder to the 13. sect I Beseech thee good Reader take a little paines heer to mark the honest dealing of this D. Whet I say Christ could not triumph beeing in the bonds of death hee for triumph sets conquer to make them contrarie to my former words that Christ did conquere Hell vpon the crosse It is one thing to coÌ„quere another thing to triumph Pompey conquered the mightie Mithridates in Syria but hee triumphed at Rome amongst his freends that were pertakers of the joy Againe where I say with Augustine that the name of Hell is joined with shame not with honour meaning the name of hell is shamefull not glorious he takes mee to say that the name of hell cannot stand in a sentence with a word of honour quotes against mee 1. Cor. 15 55. Hell where is thy victorie in which place hell and victorie are separated as if hee had saide Hell thou hast no victorie Thirdlie whereas I say that Christ triumphed by the power of his Deitie presenting his victorie to heauen earth and Hell he giues out that I say that the Godhead triumphed and not the humanitie notes in the margent Hume contrarie to Paule and Peter and wils mee to reforme this fault in my next reply This is M. D. arte If his cause were so good as he would haue it seeme he needed not this cunning or if he caried as honest a minde as he did protest in Chippenham pulpit hee would rather performe his promise then seeke such vn-christian-like shiftes to maintaine a bad cause Now to answere his cavils I ask you M. Doct. why you send Christ to hell notwithstanding the three ends that you had noted because those endes were no endes thereof and because the Scripture doeth teach that hee had performed all those ends by the conquest of Hel vpon this crosse You brought texts of Scripture to prooue them and I answered truely that not one of them soundeth anie sillable that way For in all those places there is not a letter neither of his descending into hell nor of his triumphing ouer hell You replie that those texts do proue the resurrection which is not true of all neither and that the resurrection is a knitting of the soule and bodie together and that the knitting of them together was by bringing his soule from Hell this is your principle and his bodie from the graue Now add the conclusion that hee that proueth Christs resurrection proueth his descending into hell If this reason bee good I will yeelde For now if it will holde you haue found a way to proue your opinion by all the Scriptures When Christ cured the blinde mans eies with spittle it is plaine that he was a man If he was a man he was mortall and died If hee died his soule went to hel this is your vndoubted principle and his bodie to the graue Ergo he that writes that Christ cured the blinde mans eies with spittle doeth write that hee went to Hell By this hooke you may pull all the Scriptures out at the window and make them proue what pleaseth you HVME his 14. Sect. YOu alledge for confirmation of the second How can a man enter into a strong mans house and spoyle his goodes except first hee binde the strong man Here is not that which you vndertooke to prooue that he descended into hell to binde the deuilles This house whereof here is spoken is to any man of judgments eye by circumstance of the place not Hell but this worlde whereof the deuill had taken possession and polluted many hearts out of the which he was cast by Christ who thereby prooueth himselfe to be stronger then he and not to woorke myracles in the name of Beel-zebub as the Pharises did beare the simple people in hand HIL his Reply YOur interpretation is true and the other true also for Christ did not onlie ouercome the Diuell in y â— world but also in Hell For as Cyrill noteth on this place there was before the comming of Christ much violence taking away the flock of God and carrying them to his owne house wherefore before the comming of Christ the heathen and people of the worlde went into eternall death But Christ hath deliuered both their bodies froÌ„ the graue and their soules from Hell by his death and personall descending into Hell This place is alleadged by one Georgius Princeps Anhaltinus in his learned commentaries on the 16. Psalm which you may read if you please For as Dauid trampled on the face of Goliah so did the soule of Christ trample on Satan in hell and trode on his face and this is noted by the Prophetesse Sibilla as also by the â—eathen Poets whose wordes I haue set down in my sermon at large And therefore Clenard in his grammer giueth this obseruation katelthonta eis adou id est eis otkian tou adou he went down into hell that is into the house of Hell HVME his Reioynder to the 14. Sect. YOu graunt my interpretation to bee true but I will not graunt yours except you bring better warrant then your self and a man that I neuer sawe You will mee to buy him I am not so well purst as to buy him onlie to see this that you quote him for my interpretation is defend-able without him It standeth so sure vpon the text that you confesse it your selfe You would faine shoulder in yours too and make the Scriptures double tongued but I haue learned that one text hath but one true meaning Though
cannot pertaine to the Dei tie more then poreuesthai 400 Proprietie of speach allace sillie man see the answer 401 A vaine dreame 402 Doth anie of these places affirme your assertion 403 I haue quoted 8. and could hâ—ue quoted 20. see the answere But with what face can you challenge a place of me that is so vsed when you caÌ„ bring neither reason nor place to the contrarie 404 wil it but seem tollerable when I haue done then it is better alreadie for now it is a known truth 405 Your knowledge was but a ges and I haue be guiled you 406 I haue proued it both agreable and necessary which I needed not I stand at defence It was your part to proue which you cannot do if you had 7. wits as good as your owne 407 Ware sheep that is against the text that wherein he was mortified preached not 408 Christ and not this Deitie If I had saide so you woulde haue exclaimed vpon ignorance 409 I hope the soule wherin you say he preached was not killed 410 I neuer heard a reall sermon without words 411 That is out of the text 412 So is that also petitio principij twise together 413 You beg the question againe 414 Where when and to whome said I so 415 It followes not 416 These scriptures proues it not 417 You dreame that is not mine 418 You fight with your own shadow 419 That â—ollowes not A man may say as well D. Hill is a wrangling spirit as he calleth his aduersaries phantasticall spirits fol. 24. of his sermon and yet both he and they haue bodies 420 you shuld hane left this to the boyes in Oxford it is heere a deformed patch 421 You do well to holde you in that corner but I hope you will refuse not the Canonical scripture for al this 422 Then I see it bootles to hope for your promise 423 A narrow shift 424 The thing is true your proof is naught like al the rest 425 Hand-somlie in good sadnesse D. you cannot tell howe to settle your self to proue anie thing 426 Blush for shame se the answere 427 Vpon your vnsure gesse he were mad then 428 First you say that they take prison fâ—r hell you conclude that they al alleâ—dge this place as you do your pen runnes at random 429 Their conscâ—ence I hope was bettâ—r then their warrant 430 You haue promised that once alreadie 431 It was neuer denied what needs a confession in a known case 432 Now for your credites sake tell me wher Pet. saith that hee was dead aliue at one time 433 For sham M. D. speake truth 434 A tautalogie 435 But not when he was dead 436 You will say that with Peter which Peter neuer said 437 This word expresseth not the Greeke thana totheis 438 And yet the whole maÌ„ may be mortified 439 See the answere 440 Not so but the spirits that now are in prison 441 And so it was but not in hell 442 How proue you that 443 The death and resurrection of Christ his preaching in the dayes of Noah ar heer mentioned obiter and as occasions led them in expresseth not the order when they were done If this reasoning be good the passion in the beginning of the 4 cap. following the ascension expressed in the last verse of the third 444 But most commonlie with a verbe 445 This is like salue Domine I am glade to see you wel M. D. begins wâ—th greek out of the new Testament and ends in latine out of the English accidents 446 Euerie aduerb affecteth not the word it standeth by 447 Put out that comma it is an vsurper 448 Nor separated from it 449 That promise is twise made now 450 I said that nothing is spoken of Christ in these words mortified in the flesh quickned in the spirit which may not c. 451 Did you not blushe to rack my wordes to the whâ—le discourse which are spoken but of one member 452 No forsooth 453 those be without my bounds 454 those be without my bounds 455 That is the forme giueth the forme to the 〈◊〉 456 Why mine more then yours 457 So say we 458 En is not in that verse at all expressed 459 You dreame 460 You promise to proue that en signifieth not by proue that dia signifieth by this is coÌ„mon with you a cunning point 461 You say it cannot bee so taken and would that answere seme probable 462 A flat negatiue for an instance 463 A tautologie 464 I haue said that this worde fitteth not the greek 465 A Passiue participle froÌ„ a verb actiue 466 Why so 467 But I will say he suffered death in soule and bodie 468 But why not 469 What reason should moue a reasonable man to denie that Christ suffered the death of the soule 470 This will not answere my reason 471 A confused negatiue of confusion Put your antecedents to this therfore if your skill can do so much 472 where M. D. theÌ„ were I worthie to we are a bable A rogue burned in the ear suffereth but is not killed 473 where M. D. theÌ„ were I worthie to we are a bable A rogue burned in the ear suffereth but is not killed 474 Vntruth D. the scripture vseth manie tautologies to help our memories and vnderstanding though this in mens writingâ— be a fault in scriptures it is most necessarie that one place may help another 475 This answere were somewhat if you could make it good that we giue this participle to the Deity 476 The question is whether the soule is quickened or made to liue when it is out of the bodie 477 Non causa pro causa 478 These places proue not the question 479 These places proue not the question 480 These places proue not the question 481 Paull saith not so heere 482 It followeth not 483 The Antithesis there expressed is between mortified and quickned 484 But diuerse but not alwaies separate 485 This therefore is builded on the wrong side of the way 486 You call it in your margent fortissimum argumentum but it is a starued shrimpe It cannot stand though it be not touched 487 Be sure that that be one 488 That is out of the way Christs going downe to hel is no persuasion for vs to suffer afflictions 489 But you make no dout but that hel is vnder the earth in your sermon fol. Aâ— pag. 2. in print 490 You should waste winde and break your promise 1. Reason Answere Reply 2. Reasoâ— Answers Reply Iohn 10. 18. Math. 8. 12. Ioh. 6. 27. Mar. 8. 33 Ioh. 8. 55. Ioh. 4. 24. 3. Reason 5. Reason Answere Mat. 26. 41. 6. Reason 7. Reason Answere Reply 8. Reason Answere Reply 9. Reason 10. Reason M. D. reasons confuted and his answere displayed Answere Reply Rejoynder 2. Objection Answere No reply no rejoinder 3. Object Answere 4. Objection Answere No reply no Rejoynder 5. Objection Answere No reply
from Cambridge their Reader countenanced with the authoritie of their convocation to confute that opinion which the english name of hel did make more popular and probable to the ignorant by the countenance of that famous and worthie Vniversitie Thus men may see how truely you challenge the Church of England to haue allowed your opinion alwaies your alwaies commeth short of all that time which you desired most to take your part for men of your livery if you may get autoritie on your side count your self otherwaies sufficiently armed As for me If I handle the scriptures deceitfully let not onely the Papists laugh at me but let al Christians spit at me if I reforme it not when I am convicted Howe strong my reasons are to cary this cause cleare through the midst of the aduersaries of it I hope the sequell will proue and I referre it to the advised judgment of the indifferent Reader I cannot tell how to frame irrefragable reasons to you There was a Prophecie as Curtius recordeth that hee who could vndoe the knottes of Gordius his chariot should be Emperour of Asia Alexander intending that conquest came to the temple where those knottes were kept to see if hee could open them But they beeing insoluble by mans reason hee tore all assunder with his sword So you serue my arguments be they never so irrefragable when you cannot open them with reason you teare them all assunder with violence As for my latine answere which I indeed did send you and you in trueth should haue answered me and not this wandring vagabound you haue had it these three yeares and more wherein were successiue houres ynough to answere two sheets of Paper if you haue not bin more busie about greater matters than you would haue the world to knowe In the meane time I haue pervsed this and put my friends in hope of good successe in the other when your long leasure will serue you to answere it Thus beseeching God to giue vs all one heart and one minde I end Yours in the Lord Alexander Hume THE STATE OF THIS QVESTION brieflie set down for the capacitie of such as are not able to carie the drift of all this discourse before them THe hebrevve vvord SHEOL vvhich the Greekes call hades the latines infernus and vvee hell hath three significations in the scriptures First and properlie it signifieth the graue or common condition of all the dead expressed in the greek hades by the priuation of light or lyfe Secondlie the place of tormentes appointed for the punishment of the vvicked for this the hebrevve vvord is least and our inglish vvorde most vsuall or rather as it is commonlie taken hardlie signifieth any thing els Thirdlie the torments of hel vvhich by a Metonymicall hyperbole for amplifications sake is manie times attributed to the sorrovves of this life These things are knovvn to al the learned And this D. confesseth them sect 4. See also sect 8. sect 9. and sect 14. Novve vvhere our beleefe hath that Christ descended into hell the question is vvhich of these three significations doth best fit that article of our faith We say that seing euery article of our faith must haue an vndouted sense confirmed by the Scriptures it must needs signifie the hellish torments that he suffered for our redemption or the darknesse of death vvhich svvallovved him the three daies that he vvas in the graue That these thingt are true and may be the true sense of that article our aduersaries cannot denie Yet not contented heerevvith they vvil sinke deeper and send Christs soule to the damned pit of hell neither to suffer himself nor to helpe 〈◊〉 that suffered there Novve because this is a thing that no man can avouch vpon his ovvne knovvledge but God himself We refuse to take their vvords vvithout his vvarrant Wherefore to mend this crooke they lay three teâ—â—s of Scripture in the presse The first is out of the 16. Psalme the second is out of the 3. chap. of the 1. Pet. the last vveakest out of the 4. to the Ephes But these proofes being doubtfull that is implying other plainer senses We denie them to be sufficient to make this doubtfull assertion an vndoubted article of our faith Our reason is no doubtfull proofes can make a doubtfull assertion an vndoubted article of our faith But these proofes be doubtfull Ergo these proofes cannot make this doubtfull assertion an vndoubted article of our faith That these profes be doubtfull the vvords drifts and circumstances offering other senses both plainer and better fitting the places and agreeable to the rest of the Scriptures vvill driue anie reasonable head to confesse Neither doeth diverse learned Papists denie it But this aduersarie more impudent then they blusheth not like a vvyer dravver to pull these Scriptures through narrovve holes to make them smal inough to tie our faith to his fantasie Moreouer vvith like violence hee is forced to break dovvn tvvo other vvalls that stands in his vvay The one is in the 23 of Luke ver 46. Father into thy hands I commend my spirit and the other in the 43. ver of the same cap. spoken to the theef This day shalt thou be with mee in Paradice By vvhich tvvo places it is cleare that Christs soule vvas then in heauen and not in Hell Vpon the true sense of these places riseth this disputation to vvhich I referre the discreet and indifferent Reader beseeching them to read vvith a single eie and iudge vvith an vpright hart Onelie I vvill lance an impostume of absurdities vvhich breeding in the bovvels of this opinion like the vvorme that breeds in the nut hath putrified all the probabilitie of it and made all men of indifferent iudgement in this age to caste it vnder the boord amongest the shreddes First that Christ went down to Hell to triumph contrarie to the nature of Hell which yeeldeth nothing but horrour and torments And contrarie to the nature of a triumph which was vsuallie solemnized amongst them to whom the joy of the victorie did appertaine Secondlie that Christs soule did preach in Hell contrarie to the nature of a soule that cannot preache and the condition of those hearers who could reap no profite of his sermon having their jugement alreadie Thirdlie that he did preach neither to convert the hearers nor to condempne them for the contempt of his word but to aggrauate their sorrowes Contrarie to the office of Christ which was to offer mercie to all his hearers Fourthlie that Christs soul did preach in Hel reallie not vocallie that is did preach in Hel and say nothing contrary to the nature of the word preach which neuer man did without voice words Fiftlie that Christ meaning to go to Hell as they say did notwithstanding commend his soule into the hands of God Contrarie to the true and common vse of these words vsed by Stephan Act. 7. and all other godlie men that craue to be iâ— heauen Sixtlie that his
the Scriptures that he was like vs in all things sinne onelie excepted HVME his reioynder INdeede say you if these wordes were spoken in the present time some shew of trueth were in our assertion Then if I can proue these words to be spoken in the praeseâ—â— time you will grant vs some shew of trueth which is more then commonly you vse to yeelde First you know that by a Hebraisme the future time may bee set for the present especiallye when continuance is signified Now that it must be so heere I hope this Syllogisme will perswade you That verb which signifieth an action presentlie done when it is spoken is of the present time But this verbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doeth signifie an action then presentlie done when Christ vsed these wordes Ergo this verbe is of the present time The maior is a rule of Grammer from the definition of the present time of a verbe The minor is cleer of it self because Christ did then commend his soule into the hands of God when he vsed these wordes But if this will not satisfie you take this to proue that it cannot be the future time That action which can bee referred to no time to come cannot be the future time But this action cannot be referred to anie time to come because he presentlie gaue vp the ghost and men after death commend not their soules into the handes of God Ergo this action cannot be of the future time And now hauing taken all this paines to gaine nothing in your eies but a shewe of trueth I must put you in minde that though this verbe did pertaine to the future time yet your knot is in the wrong rushe For it is not the time when hee did commend but when his soule came into the handes of his Father that must helpe you if you could bee holpen And therefore you may whissel presentlie for anie future help that the future time of this verb can yeeld you to shew my judgement of this place all things both in heauen earth and hell be in the hands of God that is in his power to dispose of them as it seemeth meetest to his owne glorie But that cannot bee the sense heere because his soule was in that sense in the hands of God euen then when he did commend it The hand is the instrument of receauing in which we rake those things that we bring into our own peculiaritie and proper possession In that sort Anthropopathetcially those soules and spirits which stande in the presence of God are said to be in his hand Of which it is said in the Psalme In thy presence is the fulnesse of ioy and at thy right hand pleasures for euermore And so Christ being in the agonies of death and hel doth commend his soule into the handes of God to possesse a fulnesse of joy and aeternitie of pleasures Like to this is Stephans prayer Act. 7. Lord Iesus receiue my spirit Heere after your wonted guise you forme my argument as pleaseth you and then you tell mee it is false If it be false you made it such If the fault had not beene more in your skill or your will or both then in the matter you might haue made it inferiâ— No man that commendeth his soule into the hands of God meaneth to go to hell But Christ as man did commend his soule into the hands of God Ergo he ment not to go to Hel. And if he meant not I am perswaded hee went not If you had framed it thus there had beene no neede of Procustes with his racke nor of anie patche to make it fit our waste To the maior of this argument for lack of better mater you crie out blasphemie And then finding no blasphemy in the words themselues you tel me that they insinuate that Christ is but a meere man and that others haue part in the worke of our redemption Your insinuations are verie deepe But heere M. Doctor I will offer you a good bargaine Hooke me this insinuation on my propositioÌ„ in mood figure and I will neuer write more against you on this question And now I must needes note an especiall grace in your writing When the argument pincheth you you wring it with a crooked wrest and straining out some filthie licour that you your self had powred vpon it you call witnesses to shewe the worlde what filthie geare it is And so with manie testimonies in thinges that no man that hath one dramme of sense will denie you make vp a shamfull and importable booke Heere to proue that Christ is our onelie Saviour a thing not denied you bring in Luther Ambrose and Theophilact Neither apply you them to the purpose though the purpose be easier to proue then the things you apply them to But your wandering hand cannot beate on one Anvil And wheras I taking the vantage of your constructioÌ„ of these words whereon we stand Father into thy handes I commend my spirite thus proue that Christs soule went no more to Hell then Dauids If these wordes haue the same sense in Christs mouth as they had in Dauids Christ soule went no more to Hel then Dauids did But you say they haue the same sense Ergo. you let goe the maior and the minor and take vp your vsuall hubub against the conclusion exclayming and crying out blasphemie Then running about and seeking Athanasius in euerie corner to chide mee because I giue Christs soule and body no greater prerogatiue then Dauids you bring him in not saying one word to the purpose For he good-man knew right well that Christ was like to Dauid and vs all in all things sinne onlie excepted and therefore would not speak against his conscience As for the praerogatiue that you woulde haue him to haue to goe to hell it is so base a one if it was anie that if Bishoppricks were no better Doctors woulde not shoulder for them like beggers at a doall Whereas you argue that if Christs soule had not gone to Hel Dauids must and yours and mine if you meane the hel of the damned as you must if you speak to the purpose it is absurd For Christ redeemed vs on the Crosse where hee did beare the hellishe burden of our sâ—â—nes and not in hell where hee paied not one dram of our debt To set a wrong sense on this place you bring foorth a heap of handes inough almoste to remoue Cheviot hill to Charing Crosse Whereupon you conclude that the sense must needes be Into thy consolation mercie protection and gouernement I will commend my soule If that was his meaning why did he not commend his bodie also in the hands of his Father And why delaied he this praier till the storme of his miseries was blowne ouer If this conclusion did follow vpon the premisses it were a fault to confute it But nowe I hope vpon a pardon though I wipe it away with a Syllogisme Consolation pertayneth to the distressed mercie to the guiltie protection to the
on this place saith that by the branches are vnderstoode the carcasses of his hoast which the veasts of the field did deuour Lauaterus the Minister of Tigurin agreeth with him All the beasts of the field shall dwell vpon his ruine the kings carkas shall not be laide vp into the sepulcher of his elders but shall be a pray to crowes griphins and other carniâ—orous birdes So doth Pellican a learned Linguist interpret this place at the laste there is ane auersion or Apostrophe to Pharao himselfe or to the Assyrian King To whom art thou liâ—ened O thou noble and high among the trees of pleasure thou hast passed all other in power and yet with other kings that were in thy company they were brought to the lowest parts of the earth that is to hell among the abhominable heathen shalt thou sleepe and lye as a wretched and miserable man Now because you tak holde of the word sleepe you must remember that these words ar spoken ironically as it is noted in the contents of Esay 14. The derision of the king of Babilon Moreouer Lauaterus on this place of Ezech. saith These things may be better vnderstood out of the 14. of Es which prophecying of the destructioÌ„ of y â— king of Babilon Baltassar describeth with what bitter scoffs he is entertained in hell To end Lauaterus on this place proueth these four things first that there is ane hell secondly that hel in this chapter is called by three names that is 1. SHEOL 2. ERETS TACHTITH 3. BOR Hell the lowest parts of the earth and a pit thirdlie that this Hel is beneath vs and lastlie that the tyrants and wicked of the world do discend into it and this he proueth out of Numb 16. 33. Psal 55. 15. And addeth also that Tertullian and Ierome doo proue hel to be beneath in the earth The conclusion then is thus for as much then as the Assyrians dyed with the sword and were deuoured of the beasts and birds of the fielâ— I pray tell mee how that can bee true that you affirme that the lowest partes of the earth doth signifye the graue for howe were they in the graue y â— were neuer buried therfore they were in hel as both Esay and Ezechiel doo affirme and as Pellican Munster Lauater three notable lerned men in the holy tong doe interpret it I thinke your owne friends when they reade this will confesse you either to bee ignorant of the word of God or els to wrest it contrary to the meaning of the holy ghost Moreouer where you mislike with me because I said that ERETS TACHTITH that is the lowermost partes of the earth doth signifye hell generally in the Hebrew toong and you bring an instance out of the 139. Psal and 14. verse where you proue that the lower parts of the earth doth signifie the mothers womb therefore it doth not signifie hell alwaies this is a childish reason In a metaphorical signification it signifieth the mothers womb therefore in his proper signification it can not signifie hell Argumentum a metaphora ductum non valet an argument drawen from a metaphore is of no force And that heere is a metaphor M. Caluin shall be the iudge He compareth saith Caluin the mothers wombe to the lowest and inward dens of the earth and a little after for no doubt Dauid would expres metaphoricaly that inestimable cunning which appereth in the figure of mans body The mothers womb is compared to hel for the darknes of it for as Caluin saith that artificer which maketh a cunning peece of worke in a darke place is more to be commended then hee which doth the like in the light Dauid also is heere saide to bee made in the nethermost parts of the earth 336 because he was by nature the child of wrath and of hell if he had not bin deliuered therehence by Iesus Christ Breefely where you say that he descended in to the Virgins wombe and that it is the true meaning of the place Eph. 4. 9. both you and your M. Beza are deceaued For Paul reproueth you Ep 4. 10. He that descended is even the same that ascended Now the body and soul of Christ ascended into heauen therefore the body and soule of Christ descended into the virgins wombe if the body did descend into the virgins womb then Christ took not flesh of the virgin Thus that you may contradiâ—t me you are not affraid ignorantly or wittinglye to deny the incarnation of our Sauiour Theophilact saith well of these words when you read that the Sonne of man came down from heauen you may not think that his flesh came down froÌ„ heauen for this is y â— opinion of Heretiques which did teach that Christ brought his body from heauen and did passe through the virgin I hope you holde not this opinion but if you hold this interpretation you must needs fall into it For he that descended is euen the same that ascended Eph. 4. 10. Violence in this section done to the text by the Doctor First that the whole 24. chap. of Eccles speaketh of the Sonne of God and of his wonderfull workes in saving mankinde of the which this was one that he was not onelie aliue amongst the living but after death his bodie was amongest the dead bodies and his soule amongst the soules in Hell c. That Esay in 14. 9. and Ezech. in the 15. verse of his 31. cap. calleth that Hel plainelie which Ezech. in the 18. verse of the same chapter calleth the lowermost partes of the earth That in the 31. 18. vers of Ezech. Thou shalt bee cast downe in the lowermost parts of the earth and sleepe in the middest of the vncircumcised the word sleepe is taken ironicallie That in Eph. 4. it is ment that Christ descended in soule and body as he ascended in soule and body A new rule in Logick that argumentum a Metaphora sumptum non valet HVME his reioynder to the 9. sect FIrst marke that by a general axiome whatsoeuer a man alledgeth to proue a thing either doutfull or vnknowne the same must be better knowne and inforce such a necessitie of consequence as cannot be denied The thing that you haue heere in hand to proue is that the lowermost parts of the earth is as proper and peculiar a name for the place of the damned as Hell is in English To proue this your testimonies should be without controulment But are in deede so farre short of that marke that they are if not harder altogether as hard and obscure as the place that they are alleadged to illustrate The first of them I haue dispatched in the former section The next is out of the 24. of Eccles a booke not Canonicall nor written in the tongue whereon wee stand In which respect I might haue rejected it But becaus one answere serued it and your
But doth purport the same that Iohn tolde vs in other wordes I came from my Father into the world and again I leaue the world and go to my Father For seeing the Apostle in this place bringeth his ascension as an argument of his descending which Iohn also did before him No man can asscend vp into heauen but he that hath descended from heaven the sonne of man which is in heauen It must follow by necessarie consequence that he descended thither whence he ascended Now I trust you will say that he ascended into heauen not from Hell but from Bethanie in the sight of his Disciples Secondlie if the place where he descended was heauen Hel cannot be the place whither hee descended For if euer he was there he went not thither in 30. yeares after his descension and aboue If you will say that he first descended into the earth and then into Hell then that descending could not be one motion beeing so manie yeares intermitted but must needes bee two first from heauen into the earth and then from the earth into Hell HIL his Reply VVHere you say you will let mee alone with my Hebrue words yet deny they signifie hel I hope because I haue proued that they signifie not the graue as you haue ignorātly or against your conscience affirmed at your next answering you will say they signifie hell and confesse your disagreement with Dauid Esay and Ezechiel Now you conclude with certaine pregnant reasons as you imagine your first is this These words do purporte vnto vs that which Iohn told vs in other words I cam from my father into the world and againe I leaue the world and goe to my Father Ioh. 16. 18. This is nothing pertaning to the matter we haue in hand vnles this be your argument Christ came into the world ergo he went not into Hell Heerof I thus argue Christ descended into the virgins wombe as your selfe say ergo he came not into the world Or thus Christ descended into the world ergo he descended not into the graue Christ was borne of the virgin came into the world to reconcile vs to his Father by his death taking away our sinnes and triumphing in his owne person ouer death and hell 319 Therefore not only Christ came downe into the world but as our body for sinne lyeth in the graue so his body went into the graue and because our soule was mancipate vnto hell his soule went into hel that by his discending our soules might bee freed from hell In your next reason you say that Christ descended thither whence he ascended now that is meerely false as appeereth Math. 12. 40. For as Ionas was in the whales belly 3 dayes and 3. nights so shall the Sonne of man be 3. daies and 3. nightes in the hart of the earth Now Christ ascended from the superficies of the earth but he descended into the hart of the earth Therefore as this is no good argument Christ ascended from the mount ergo he ascended not from the graue so this is also a weake argument Christ ascended from the world ergo he went not into hell M. Hume lyeth in his bed and early ariseth afterward many seeing him he rideth towards Bromham ergo M. Hume came from Bath and not from his bed Then you adde this reason if Christ descended into hell then it was 30. yeeres after his birth and so it was not one motion you charge me with cloudes of sophistry but heer is a thick mist of sophistications what you meane by this motion I know not but all the actions of our Sauiour are aptly deuided into humility and glory of his humility there are 4. degrees First he came into the virgins womb secondly into the world thirdly to the graue fourthly to hel Of his glory and exaltation likewise there are foure degrees First he came out of hell and the graue secondly he conuersed in the earth thirdly hee was carried in the aire in a cloud and then entred the heauens with glory Also where you say that if hell were the place whyther he descended it must needs be the place from whence he ascended This as I haue saide before is vtterly false if you meane the immediate place from whence he ascended for it is known to all beleuers that Christ did descend into the graue but he did not ascend immediatlye from the graue therefore your reason is against the Scripture wher you make a distinction betwene the resurrection and the ascention you may vnderstande if it please you that Eph. 4. 9. The word ascend containeth in it al y ◠degrees of Christs exaltation therfore the resurrection also as the word descend doth comprehēd all the degrees of Christs humilitie HVME his Reioynder IT is as easie to holde an Eele by the taile as you to the question The place whereon wee stand is in the 4. 9. to the Ephes But that hee ascended what is it but that hee first descended into the lower-moste partes of the earth Which wordes most of the learned and many of your owne favorites takes to be as if he had said that the Sonne of God cloathed in mans nature is ascended vp to heauen what is it but that the same Sonne of God first came downe into the lower-most partes of the earth and tooke on him mans nature so that hee which descended is euen the selfe same that is ascended to fulfill all things and giueth nowe these gifts to men to bee some Apostles some Prophetes some Evangelistes c. And so they take the lower-most parts of the earth not to be the center of the earth in respect of his highest and extreame superficies but the whole earth in respect of the heuens Or if you like not that which notwithstanding is most receaued amongst the learned the base estate that hee descended into in respect of the high estate that he descended from To ouerthrowe this interpretation you alledge that the Hebrew wordes ERETSTACHTITH is in that language the proper name of Hell To proue it you alledge the places which I haue confuted in the former 2. sectiōs After which labour I gathered some reasons from the infallible rules of nature to proue that this place cannot carie your sense My grounds were Vnius motus vnum est principium vnus finis And contrariorum motuum vnius res moventis principium vnius est finis alterius contra For example East and West South and North vp and downe are contraries If anie thing runne west-warde and return east-ward the furthest point that it runneth towards the west is the beginning of the motion towards the east or if a man come down a high hill and returne vp againe The lowest steppe that he came downe is the first step of his going vp Whervpon thus I resoned The beginning of Christs ascending
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is spirits also is not as you take it for you say it signifieth the men in Noahs time but you can not bring one scripture to proue it Therfore I say as I said before it signifieth soules seperated from the body That my exposition is true I haue prooued by three Scriptures Ecles 12. 7. Heb. 12. 23 Act. 7 59. Now as mine is true so will I proue yours to be false impossible by Christs owne words Luke 24 59. where our Sauiour to proue himselfe to bee noe ghoste but to haue a true body after his resurrection thus reasoneth Behold my hands my feet that I am the same handle me for a spirit hath no flesh and bones as yee see me haue This was Christs argument I haue a body therefore I am not a spirit and so I reason against you and your teachers The men in Noahs time had bodies ergo they could not be called spirits Euery boy can tel you in Oxford that substantia is deuided into corpus and spiritum and that one of these opposite species can not be affirmed of another And therfore to be short when you can proue out of the new Testament that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is iournying is spoken figuratiuely of the deity or Pneuma that is spirit signifieth a man y â— hath a body I will giue you the goale but if you will runne on this course vntill you haue proued these 2. points which you must doo if you will haue me to recant then take heede least you run your selfe out of breath Lastly the word Phylake that is prison doth signify hel as it is to be sene Apoc. 20. 7. When a thousand yeeres shall be fulfilled Satan shall be losed out of his prison Thus thou seest good reader how I haue proued my interpretatioÌ„ out of the word of God for euery word which our aduersaries can not doo for their interpretation therfore thou maist safely assure thy self ours to be good and theirs to be false And that this word prison doth signify hell you may see Epiphanius Athanasius Fulgentins centuria 1. lib. 2. cap. 14. Peter Martyr on the Crede Nowell in his Catechisme Beacon in the sick mans salue Crowlev in his answer to the reasons of Pound the Papist All these old and new writers haue alleadged this Scripture as I haue done with good warrant and conscience Now that I haue proued this my owne interpretation I will by Gods grace proue your answere to be friuolous First you confesse that killed and quickned are Participles of one tense and yet you say they are not referred to Christ at one time this is meerlye false as I thus proue Christ was after his passion dead aliue or neuer if he were neuer dead and aliue at one time then Peter saith not truly if he were dead and aliue at on time then you speak falsely Now you your selfe confessed that he was dead and aliue at on time alittle before and proued it out of the 2. Cor. 13. 4. He was crucified concerning his infirmity yet liueth hee by the power of God Heere by your own woords Christ was aliue when he was crucified so may I say w t Pet. he was aliue when he was dead at one time Then you say the flesh signifieth the manhode and spirite the deitye this also is vntrue for the body may be killed but the soule can not Again shew me any Scripture where on and the sam word in on sentence and period is taken for diuers things for in this sentence In which spirite hee went and preached to the spirits that ar in prison Heer the word spirit in the beginning of the sentence signifieth the deity in the latter end the same woord signifieth the men that liued in Noahs time by your interpretation but by my interpretation it signifieth the soule seperate from the body in both places For as Cirill saith as Christ was with the liuing in body and soule so to shew himselfe a true man his body was among the dead bodies and his soule among the soules Then you auouch the preching of Noah is attributed to the whole Trinity be it so but can you proue that Christ after he was killed did prech in Noah for this preaching was after Chriâ—â—s death which is mentioned in the 18. verse and before his resurrection which is spoken of in the 21. verse You goe forward and tell mee that pote doth not determine the Participle apeithesasi that is disobedient but ekeryxen that is preached I must tell you plaine you speak neither like a Deuine nor a Gramarian For an Aduerb is some time put to a Participle as Math. 2. 7. Tote erodes lathra kalesas tous magous Then Herod calling priuilye the wise men Sometime to a Noune as homo egregie impudens Somtime to an Aduerb as parum honeste se gerit Therfore the Aduerb pote comming after apeithesasi next immediatly and being distinguished from ekeryxen by a Comma cannot by any example in diuinitye or by any rule of Grammer be coupled with the verb ekeryxen Now to answer your infallible reasons First your reason against me that if my construction bee true then nothing did happen to Christ which might not be verified of any man And did you not blush wheÌ„ you wrote these things Can any mans soule goe to hell and returne againe For his going downe to hell I proue in the 19. verse and his returning from hell in the 21. verse Secondly you say the word spirit doth signifie that which gaue life what then as God giueth life to the body effectually so the soule giueth life to the body formally Your Geueua translation which you follow saith hee was quickned in the spirite not of the spirit And this I note against your side en in the 18. verse you translate In But in the next verse as though you had not done well in the former you translate it by Now you know the preposition dia signifieth by and not en as it appereth in the 21. verse and in many places mo dia anastaseos that is by the resurrection Moreouer if you had said quickned of the spirite then had you made a probable answer but no diuine is able to proue this exposition that Christ was quickned in the spirit that is in the deity for the deity is life it selfe Your third pregnant reason is that thanatotheis signifieth not only the death of the body but also the whole passion of Christ This can not be for the suffrings of Christ are set downe before in the same verse then in this word thanatotheis is shewed the maner of the death that Christ suffered that is hee was killed and
to bee quickned is to bee deliuered from miseries Ingenuitie woulde haue confessed a fault You conclude with a confutatioÌ„ of the Antithesis between the divinity humanity but my reason is froÌ„ an Antithesis between mortified quickned flesh spirit which you by a corrupted glose taking quickned for a deliuerie froÌ„ miries did ouerthrow Yet because I said that Paul maketh that antithesis Rom. 1. It shal not be impertineÌ„t to view your reasons An Antithesis must be say you of things opposite and contrarie I add the Diuinitie and humanitie bee thinges opposite Ergo there may be an Antithesis of the Diuinity and the humanitie But they are vnited say you What then So be the flesh and the spirit and yet Christ saieth the Spirit is readie but the fleshe is weake A common Logician much more a Doctor should know that no vniting of thinges betweene which a difference may be obserued can let an Antithesis if occasion serue Notwithstanding the vniting a man may wel say Christ as hee was man was passible as hee was God he was impassible To these reasons I added more in my latine which I sent you The spirit heere doth signifie that which his enemies hell death could not touch according to the text he was quickened in the spirit But his humane soule escaped not the violence of his enemies Ergo the word spirit heere doth not signifie his humane soule To this you make no answere The seaventh was This spirit of which he speaketh heere did preach But the humane soule cannot preach Ergo the spirit heere is not the humane soule To this you answere that he preached not vocallie but reallie that is not in words but in deeds A dumb man may preach so as well as D. Hill If you stand 7. dayes in the pulpit of the great Church at Sarum and say nothing there bee not 7. men within 700. myles that wil commend your sermon The eight was Whosoeuer doth preach he doth it either to amend the enormities of the hearers or to instruct them in the waye of saluation But this was not to be hoped for in damned spirits Ergo hee preached not in Hell to damned spirits Heere you answere that he preached to reproue them of their infidelitie but you fall still in one ditch He that reproueth infidelitie doeth it either to mend it or to take away excuses But there was no such hope in these that were past all remedie and excuse The ninth was This preaching was when the disobedience of the hearers was reforme-able But this was onelie reforme-able in the dayes of Noah Ergo this preaching was not but in the daies of Noah This hath no answere The tenth was from the circumstances of the text and necessarie Analysis thereof Which I remitted to Beza who hath done that better then I can and whose notes it is not likelie that you want hauing such a Librarie as you speake of sect 7. You in the margent will mee to read Aretius and Alesius The one I haue read and the other cannot moue mee though hee be my countrie-man I haue learned to preferre truth before men what euer they be These were my reasons which I joined to the lawfull vse of the words proved by Iohn Paul and Peter In them so ouer-smoked is your sense you smell no reason at all But tell your reader that we cannot proue ouâ— interpretations by the Scriptures as you do yours and yet you bring nothing for your owne but that the words may bee so taken and a fewe sillie conjectures answered before by mee Nowe having set downe mine let mee see howe stoutlie you haue defended yours THe first was Poreutheis that is went doth signifie motion from one place to another But the Deitie cannot moue from anie place being at al times in all places Ergo poreutheis is not attributed to the Deitie To the minor of this argument I aunswered out of the 18. of Genesis and 3. of Exodus That the God-head is saide to mooue from place to place by a figure called Anthropopatheia You reply that the bookes that I cite are written in Hebrewe And that the interpreters doe translate that hebrew word by katabainein or erchesthai and not porâ—uesthaâ— As if the Hebrewe tongue which is called lingua sancta were fitter to speak improperly of God then the Greeke or that poreuesthai had gotten some speciall licence more then anie other verbs of motion to be free from that figure Yet if it will please you to read Exod. 13. 2. Nomb. 14. 14. Deut. 1. 33. Exod. 33. 3. Psal 132. 8. Deut. 31. 3. Psal 71. 12. Psal 88. 7. and infinite such places more you shall find that plakket deere of a naked q. without a cap. But suppose that I could not finde it attributed to the Deitie in all these Scriptures yet you were not the nearer your marke For if you bee remembred your reason was in Chippenham that poreuesthai cannot bee giuen to the Deitie because it is a verb of motion Now the maior of your syllogism must be that no verb of motion can bee attributed to the Deitie Which maior being crased by my first answere and the examples there alledged There is no reason left you why poreuesthai cannot be attributed to the Deitie as wel as erchesthai or katabainein and no reason you knowe is too weake against ten such stout reasons as I haue sent you forcing this sense vpon this place Your next argument was from the participle quickned thus No passiue can agree with the Deitie Quickned is a passiue Ergo it cannot agree with the Deitie This syllogism I granted to be good and told you withall that wee doe not attribute this Participle to the Deitie but to the whole Christ by participation of proprieties following the text which saith not that the flesh was mortified and the spirit quickned but that Christ was mortified in the flesh and quickened in the spirite This answere you stroke off your skore Your third argument was from the tense or time 〈…〉 bee attributed to Christ at one time they note that hee was deade and aliue at one time But the first is true Ergo the last is true To this I answere denying the maior That participles or verbs of one time attributed to one thing muste needes pertaine to one time In the beleef wee say that Christ was crucified dead and buried where crucified dead buried be all of one tense or time yet agree not all to Christ at one instance of time To this you reply that they muste pertaine to one time and proue your maior thus Christ was after his passion dead or aliue at on time or else neuer If he were neuer dead and aliue at one time S. Peter speaketh not trulie If hee were dead and aliue at one time then I speake falselie In this Syllogisme is neither mood nor
this land it doth not become you to lible against him for in speaking against him you traduce al those reuerend and learned men which made an Iuiunction for keeping of vnitie that no other Catechisme should bee taught of any Schoolmaister then M. Nowels Therefore becaus you are a straÌ„ger you ought not to be pertergos speak euil of those Ministers which vphold the doctrine established and because you are a Scholemaister you ought to teache and not to gainsaye it Qui pergit dicere ea quae vult audiet ea quae non vuls as you reuile at M. Chalfont so doo you and your frends priuilye against me calling me a Bishop pling and a time-seruer Indeed I was brought vp vnder Bishop Iewell who catechised me in this saith therefore I will not easily or rashly depart from it I confesse my selfe also to be a timeserâ—er for it is the day and time of saluation accepted â—et them murmur with Martin that liste I pray God my dayes may end with this time and my time ma continue no longer then these dayes of the stated our Church that now is do continue I haue seene the begining I have seene the propagation of the Gospell I haue seene God hath deâ—ended our Church merciful miraculously from heauen God grant that I and all my Auditors may walk worthy of our calling Godly iusâ—ly soberly Therefore I end with this saying of S. Paule 1. Cor. 4. 3. As touching me I â—asse very little to be iudged of you or of mans iudgement and in the 5. verse Therefore iudge nothing before the time vntill the Lord come who shall lighten things that are hidden in darknes and make the counsels of the hart maniefest and then shall euery man haue praise of God HVME his Reioynder to the 17. Section TRuth it is that you did preach since at Leycocke not for contentions sake but to haue the laste word For hearing that M. Wisedom had broached his opinion at Cosham and had perswaded Christian men to doubt of the articles of their fatih so your words do sound you could not holde your fingers For my parte I am much in your favour For you were content to see mee misuse all the Prophetes Apostles and Christ himselfe and would not haue said to mee so much as black is my eie if some vnruelie tongues blemishing your credite had not set you a worke But blab it is and out it must You excused M. Wisedom of this fault in the beginning of your sermon at Chippenhame and accused him againe vnawares in the end of it In the last section you say that you spake that of Carlill Servetus and some that tolde you that Thomas Aquinas did insert this article and now againe vnaduisedlie you say heer that you preached againe at Leycocke after that you had heard of M. Wisedomes preaching at Cosham because you would haue no Christian man to doubt of the articles of his faith If this sermon to this end was need-full in your eies Then in your conceit M. Wisedome had taught men at Cosham to doubt of the articles of their Faith contrarie to your first sermon at Cippenhame and your laste section heere Carlil and Servetus did help to couer this slip before Now what cloak will you finde to hide this contradiction againe My simple head cannot sound into the depth of your excuses and therfore I leaue it to your self to prooue that this slip did leape ouer the hatch against your will Now you say that I do ask you what comfortable or necessary matter you teach that we denie To this with protestation praemised that I marke it consideratlie as though you woulde not let one sillable fall in waste you begin a long discours of the magnitude multitude turpitude c of our sinnes and of Christs paines for our pardon of his resurrection ascension and many other things which wee acknowledge as well as you all which while my eares prepared by your protestation did hearken for the promised comfort we teach not at length commeth out that we beeing subject to two great curses death and damnation Christ descended into the graue to deliuer vs from the one and into Hell to deliuer vs from the other This is right Parturiunt montes That Christ went downe into Hell is not our comfort Our comfort is that he hath deliuered vs from the bands of hell which we teach acknowledge as wel as you But if this your doctrine be true then is it false that Peter teacheth 2. 24. that Christ bare our sinnes in his bodie on the tree and his sacrifice vnperfect Wherefore to conclude magnus nugator magno conatu magnas nobis nugas parit But say you though we agnise this that is your tearm as well as you Yet because wee denie the meane thereof wee denie a moste comfortable doctrine The meane of our salvation was not his going down into the Hell of the damned which wee denye nor the laying of him vp three daies in Iosephs tombe which we confesse But his suffering in his innocent soule and bodie al the torments and miseries of hel and death which wee must haue suffered if hee had not stept in betweene vs and them I will not onelie say this after your manner but I will proue it so sufficientlie that you your self shall not gainesay it The meane of our salvation was the conquest of Hell and death But his going downe into the Hell of the damned and Iosephs tomb was not that conquest Ergo his going downe into the hell of the daÌ„ned or Iosephs tombe was not the meane of our salvation Another The meane of our salvation was that immaculate sacrifice that Christ did offer for our sinnes But his descending into the hell of the damned and Iosephs tombe was not that sacrifice Ergo his going down into the hell of the damned and Iosephs tomb was not the meane of our salvation Another There Christ redeemed vs where hee paide the ransome of our redemption But hee paide not the ransome of our redemption in the hell of the damned and Iosephs tombe Ergo hee redeemed vs not by descending into the hell of the damned nor Iosephs tombe Heer be three reasons in mood and figure against your comfortable doctrine which when you haue answered I will bring a whole armie of such mighty souldiers for the scriptures haue enough such to turne your comfort into murning and your joy into teares if it stand on no better ground then this But say you if all the articles going before the comming after bee vnderstood of Christs person then this article of his descending muste caâ—e the same sense But the first is true Ergo the last is also true This is a good argument but the conclusion is not for your hand If you had but one such for your maine-shot of descending a whole reame of paper royall would bee too little for your amplifications But
That must bee one whosoeuer be the other 328 A degree is an ascense from one step to another His conversing on the earth was no ascense and therfore no degree at all 329 This degree in the aire was not a step of his glorie for he neither fastned his seete nor made any abode there 330 You say much and prooue little 331 One ascension hath but one beginning calaed terminus a quo 332 That pertaineth to his burial not the descending that Paule speaketh of in this place 333 Not but such eies as yours 334 Patitio principij that is the place we stand vpon It maketh nothing for you except we will grant you your will without reason One motion hath but one beginning one ending Of contrarie motions if the mouer be one the beginning of the one is the end of the other and contrariwise the end of the one is the beginning of the other The paralogisâ—nes of this sect 335 That note is against your self read and see 336 That note sheweth this place to be spoken of them that giueth bread to the hungrie drinke to the thirstie c. 337 The verse you referre vs to in Math. speaketh of the mercifull not of the wicked 338 You are much deceaued 339 What synode is that I was neuer of anie synode nor worthie to rule a synode 340 Vntruth see the aunswere 341 Wordes 342 It is trew of all parts y â— can consiste after separatioÌ„ 343 But if you will proue the thing you vndertake to proue you must proue that wher the soule is not the maÌ„ is not 344 That followes not 345 Heer M. D. will correct magnificat It is in the English Bibles I am not yet ascended and that he thinks not to be of the praeter-perfect tense and therefore he mends it I haue not c. This had ben well found of a boy in his accidents but a D. shuld haue knowne that amatus sum is the preter-perfect time as well as amatus fui 346 I know no man saith so 347 Nor that and therfore these two are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 348 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 349 You had need of a cable to binde this therefore to the premisâ—es 350 It will not follow see the answere 351 I brought examples of my own general maximes I dallied not with your argumeÌ„t 352 I neuer thought it see the answere 353 It will neuer follow by this reason 354 That is a foule name 355 As good Logicians as D. Hill Ramus and al his followers thinke the soule to be an integrall parte Partes integrisunt partes integrales anima corpus sunt partes integri scili cet hominis Er go anima corpus sunt par â—es integrales hominis 356 I know nor what you mean by a divisible part If a part that may consist being deuided from the whole I hope you will confesse the soule to be such 357 This is a new terme of arte 358 Not so see the answere 359 No errour at all see the aunswere 360 The man alone you would say 361 This proof needed not 362 If you could follow the question all the proofes in this section should bend to make your assertion good that this saying of Christ to Marie Ioh. 20. doth proue that his soule had not beene in heauen when he was risen againe 363 Parergon 364 By this it appeareth that Irenaeus speakerh not of the hell of the damned but of the state of the dead Heer I follow Ramus 365 Such a word out of your mouth might haue lifted vp my hart if you had not said section the 7. that I wanted either science or conscience or both Howsoeuer your wordes agree I hope I was the same wheÌ„ you wrot that when you wrote this 366 Then I will tell you the same that all Christians haue to know God defend his truth The Paralogismes in the D. reply 367 If my coÌ„mission be warrantable this hope may hoppe 368 Heere you promise to proue 369 And heere you fall to confute so soone you haue forgot your self 370 You alter the conclusion I said that the Scriptures neuer giueth death to Christ but for his whole passion which thing you should confute if you could answere mee 371 Still you change the question though quickned went necessarilie before his resurrection I neuer said that it signifieth it 372 I brought reason for the things I said and you answere al with that cannot be 373 See the answere in the rejoynder 374 If you can proue that Peter said so I will proue that he was like an Irish man that comming out of a battell boasted that hee had killed fiue men in the feet that wanted the heads before he came at them 375 What then 376 Is there no thing els to apply these things to or is no repetition tollerable 377 How doth this for proue anie of these things that you haue said 378 Betwene these two * markes ther is a most disâ—rdeâ—ed hyperbalon of manie wordes not two lines together directed to one purpose 379 Peter sheweth not 380 This is foisted in the text 381 That proâ—veth not that spirit is the soule heere 382 You beg the question 383 He suffered the death of both You leaue the word of the text mortified and choses a word that taketh away the duble death which he suffered this is pelting with the text 384 True but who saith so 385 And wer all the soules separated from their bodies in the hell of the damned that he could not bee amongst such soules but in hell 386 Truelie I see it not 387 I see not that neither 388 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 implyerh the Participle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cannot stand without it Wherfore if you had cast an eie that way you would haue translated it that nowe are in prison 389 You dream we translat it not by the which 390 And you did you wold lose your labour 391 You said thâ—t no verb of motion could be giveÌ„ to the Deitie fol. 11 pag. 2. That I hope you are gone from Now you haue no reason why this word caÌ„not pertaine to the Deitie but because it cannot pertaine to the Deitie which is as if a man would fay D. H. could not get a Bishoprick because D. H. coulde not get a Bishopricke 392 That is not of necessitie neither 393 Are they the fitter for that to speak improperlie of God 394 Why maÌ„ is the old testament Apocrypha with you you are a nice man 395 Katabaino and erchomaâ— be verbs of moâ—ioÌ„ as well as poreuomai 396 Eltho I neuer red nor you neither in the present tense 397 How can this place proue that Iohn translateth not IARAD heere 398. Eleutho is out of vse You shame your self 399 This place proueth your translating of IARAD as the other doth And heere you may mark that erchesâ—ai is spoken of the manhoodas well as poreuesthai and so by your reason erchesthai
words as I speak them HVMâ— his 5. Sect. BVt that hee neuer was there hee is too curious that will not stand content with Christes owne testimonies Father into thy handes I commend my spirit And in another place This day shalt thou bee with mee in Paradice And heere it is a world to see how men on your side labour to put out this candel First you say that this place Father into thy hands I commend my spirit is borrowed of Dauid and must bee taken in the same sense as Dauid vsed it before But you must consider when we vse other mens wordes either we cite them as testimonies or vsurpe them by imitation If we bring them in as witnesses wee may not alter their testimonie but if wee imitate them wee may without impeachmeÌ„t apply them to what sense best may beseeme our purpose In this place Christ citeth not Dauids wordes to testifie of his passion but imitateth Dauid in commending his soule into the handes of God Where you see that no necessity inforceth the same sense But be it so and I thinke it is so and that it maketh much against you For seing Dauids soule commeÌ„ded into the hands of God was neuer in Hell it will follow that Christes soule commended to the same protector was lykewise neuer there except you will ascribe lesse vertue to Christs prayers then to Dauids But Dauids soule say you went not streight way into heaven because he lived manie yeares after That he liued anie long time after if it were denied you will hardlie proue it But that maketh not to the question when Davids soule came into heauen But whether hee that commendeth his soule into the hands of God doth purpose that it shall descend into hell prooue that and you shall haue the goall As for Dauid he hauing deuoured heauen in hope doubted not if he liued anie long time after to speake that in the praesent time which he was well assured would come to pas And seeing Dauid was a figure of Christ and spake manie things in his owne person which aggree better with the person figured then with the figure these wordes may bee vnderstood as the casting of lottes on his garment and the digging of his hands and feet Wherefore if you will answere this place to the satisfaction of them that dissent from you you must bring proof that hee that meaneth to goe to Hell doth commend his soule into the handes of God or els you shall neuer bee able to darken the light of this Sunne with anie cloude of Sophistrie HILL his reply INdeed if these woords were spoken in the present time some shew of truth were in your words but in the Greeke they are in the future-tence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Father into thy hands I wil coÌ„mit my spirit Now your argument is this Christ commended his soule vnto his Father ergo immediatly he went not downe to hell Heere is more in your conclusion then is in your premises You may coâ—clud his soule went to heauen But not immediatly for it went to hell as I haue proued before for hell in the 16 Psalme doth not signifie the sorrowes of hell but the place as I haue confirmed already Therefore it is better to translate I wil commend then I do commend as Stephanus oâ— this place noteth Paule sayth Eph. 4. and 10. verse Now in that he ascended what is it but that he first descended into the lowest parts of the earth He that descended is euen the same that ascended farte aboue all heauens to fulfill all things Now if the same Christ did first desceÌ„d which did ascend then he descended in soule and body as he ascended in soule and body For both these must be effected in a wonderfull maner for they are reckoned by Salomon amongst the most stupendious works of the Sonne of God Proâ— 30. 4. Who hath ascended vp to heauen and descended who hath gathered the winde together in his fyst who hath established all the ends of the world By this scripture I iuferre that to ascend and descend are as miraculous works as to create and gouerne the world But if the soule of Christ did got to heaueÌ„ immediatly as you affirms contrary to this text then the descending of Christ had not bene so maruelous as his ascending Besides as you after alleage there is but one ascending but if Christs soule first went to heauen then his body then were there two ascensions But euen as Christ was but once borne and once dyed and once buried and once rose from the dead and but once commeth into iudgment so as Cyprian saith in his Sermon of the ascending of Christ Christ did once descend into hell they shall see God no more on the crosse nor they that are damned in hel Wherefore may it please you to accept the iudgement of Athanasius a Greke Father a man persecuted for the truthes sake by the Arrians he in his Creede saith thus who suffred for our saluation and descended into hell And interpreting the 1. Cor. 3. writeth Satan was enuious against our sauior for he killed him not knowing that it wold make against himself for Christ after his cros going down into hel hath vaÌ„quished death And becaus he knew no sin be could not be holde of deth Thus you see that not only Hill Augustine and Ierome doe say that Christ after hee had vttered these words into thy hands I will commend my spirit but Athanasius a Greek father who better then you vnderstood the meaning of these words Therefore it is a woÌ„der to see how those of your side labour to extinguish this everlasting light of Gods truth set vp a cousuming candle of your owne making Where you teach that Christs Soule did no more descend into hell then Dauids did therin you are deceaued For Christ was to deliuer vs from hell Dauid also wherefore if Christs soule had not gone to hell Dauids must and mine and yours And for this cause as you say they are true in Christ figured but not in Dauid the figure and herevpon Peter thus reasoneth that they could not be true in Dauid For Christ soule was in hel and yet not tormented his body in the graue but not corrupted wheras Dauids body saw corruption and if his soule had gone to hell it had found no redemption Therefore to be in graue and returne without corruption and to be in hell and returne with conquest of the diuell were two peculiar things to the Sonne of God not to any other of the sons of men And heere you vtter an other blasphemy that Christs soule had no other prerogatiue then Dauids soule for by the same reasone you may argue that Christs body had no greater prerogatiue then Dauids body for as this is false so
was the end of his descending But his ascending was from this earth whereon we converse Ergo the end of this descending was onelie to this earth whereon we conuerse and not into hell as you gather out of this place My maior is proued by the second rule because the mouer is one Christ the motions contrarie ascending and descending The minor is proued Mark 16. 19. Luke 26. 51. Act. 1 9. by al the Symbols or summes of our faith by the cōmon consent of all Divines and the vsuall speach of all Christians that euer was or is To this you answere that the maior is vtterlie false because Christ saith Mat 12. 40. At Ionas was three dayes and three nights in the whales bellie so the sonne of man must be three dayes and three nights in the heart of the earth Indeede if the rule of nature were contrarie to this saying of Christ I shoulde sooner yeelde that nature might erre then the Lord of nature lie But Christ came neither to destroy the lawe giuen to his church nor to the rest of his creatures called the law of nature Wherefore this answere was not Doctor-like If you had looked well about you you might haue seene that his beeing three daies and three nights in the heart of the earth pertaineth to his buriall and not to his descending more then his rysing again out of the hart of the earth pertaineth to his ascension For these are foure distinct things His descending from heauen into his humane state his burial and laying vp in the heart of the earth after his death his resurrection and returning againe from the heart of the earth into the state he was separated from by death his ascending from the earth vp into heauen I drew also another reason from the first principle to prevēt an answere that his descending might haue beene first from heauen into his humane state and then out of his humane state into hell It was this if Christs descending from heauen did end in Hell then it culd not bee one motion being so manie yeares intermitted But it was but one motion Ergo it ended not in Hell To this you answere that I who charge you with cloudes of Sophistrie do raise such mistes of Sophistications that you cannot see in them what I mean by this one motion But there is not the cause That the Owle cānot see in the light the fault is not in the light but in the eie of the owle There is not a gnerall in Oxenford that had spent a moneth in reading Aristotles 5. and 6. bookes de natura that would not haue knowne this argument One descending is but one motion Paule speaketh heere but of one descension Ergo but of one motion Your degrees of humiliation are heere impertinent Howe properlie they are distinguished I referre it to the margent You tell mee in the beginning that my first reason was from the place of Iohn I came from my Father into the worlde c. Now sillie man I pitie your simplicitie That is no reason at all But seeing I was to apply naturall reason to this text I brought that place to proue that I made no private sens of these words Which course if you would follow your wrangling would soone weare to an end But you say that that place doeth little or nothing pertaine to this place that heere wee haue in hand A fig is not liker a fig then that is like this That hee descended and that he came from the Father that he ascended and that hee went to his Father are so like that though you put on your spectacles you will not finde a haire betweene them The argument that you frame heere for mee and the two absurd similies framed on the same block let them bee buried in the brain that bred them That is the fittest coffen I know for such rotten stuffe Wherefore to conclude this disputation about these wordes seeing neither your examples in the former section wil fit your hand nor this place tolerate your absurde sense I muste put you in minde of Chippenhames pulpite There be manie godlie soules that would be glad to see you so honest as to performe the worde that you passed there before them HVME his 11. Sect. YOur next argument is taken from the wordes of our Sauiour to Marie Magdalene forbidding her to touche him because he had not yet bene with his Father Whervpon you gather seing the whole man is said to be wher the soule is that Christs soule had not beene in heaven because he himself had not beene there It is a wonder if a man of your learning seeth not so manifest a fallacie For though by a figure a man may well say that the whole is where there is but a part yet it followeth not where the whole is not that there is no parte An argument you knowe a tot◠divise ad negationem omnium partium was neuer current amongst the learned For example The whole race of mankind is not in England Ergo there is no men there O◠Edmond Campion hangeth not ouer New-gate Ergo no parte of him hangeth there Like to this is your reason The whole man Christ was not in heauen Ergo his soule was not there That these wordes of Christ were meant of the whole it is apparant by the text For that which had not yet been with his Father was the same that Marie was forbid to touch That I beleeue you will not say was his soule which is not subject to feeling but the whole man consisting of soule bodie Wherefore it was the whole man that Christ tolde Marie was not with his Father HIL his Reply MY next place was not this but a text out of Syrac 17. 21. At the last shall he arise and reward them and shall repay their reward upon their heads and shall turne them into the lower partes of the earth If the margin is noted Math. 25. 35. So that this place sheweth that after iudgement the wicked shal be turned into the lower parts of the earth that is hell This place because you nor your Sinod can answere you haue passed it ouer and saide nothing to it but are now com to your scholepoints the which when I vse you call sophistry and so it were indeed if I did vse them as you doe You say an argument drawen negatiuely from the whole to the parts doth not hold True it is if by parts you meane integral parts but not essentiall parts My instance was thus Math. 8 11. Many shal come from the East and the West and shal rest with Abraham Isaac Iacob in the kingdom of heauen Out of this place I proue that where the soule of man is after death there is the mā said to be as we vsually say that these Patriarks and all the saints are in heauen though their bodies be in the earth and are dust and ashes If then
the soule of Christ were in heauen vntill his resurrection then could not these words of Christ bee true Iohn 20. 17. Touch me not for I haue not yet ascended vnto my father for it is the preter-perfect tense 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Therefore as this is vntrue to say that Abraham is not in heauen because his body was not in heauen so this is false to say Christ was not in heauen because his body was not in heauen Our body is gouerned by the soule and man taketh his appellation of a reasonable creature not of the body but of the soule and therefore if Christs soule went vp to heauen as you say this cannot be true I haue not yet ascended to my father Besides if Christs soule went first to heauen and afterward his soule and body togither then were there 2. ascensions proue this and I will geue you the goale You dally also with my argument in this manner The whole race of mankind is not in England ergo there is no men in England Do you think there is no more union betwixt Christ and his soule then betwene all the men of the world then by this reason the body and the soule of Christ were neuer vnited together Your next resemblance is this Edmund Campions whole body is not ouer Newgate Ergo no part of him Heere is a foule error to thinke Christs soule to be an integral or diuisible part which is ane essential or indiuisible for by your reason Christs soule is mortal may perish as the integral parts of CampioÌ„ doth You vtter also an other error in these words the whol man Christ for the whol man doth not make Christ but God and man as you may see in Athanasius Creede As the reasonable soule and flesh is one man So god and man is one Christ I will ende therefore with this saying of Irynaeus who liued vnder Marcus Antonius in the yeare of our Lord god 125 which thus proueth the descending of Christ into hell For the writing against Heretiques that said hel was in this world as many doo now a dayes thus reproueth them in his fift book and last chapter As Ionas taried in the whales belly three dayes and three nights so shall the Sonne of man bee in the hart of the earth And the Apostle saith what is it that he ascended but that he first descended into the lowest partes of the earth and Dauid prophecying of this sayd Thou hast deliuered my soule from the nethermost hel and rising again the third day he sayd to Mary which he sawe first and worshipped him Touch me not for I haue not yet asscended to my Father but go to my Disciples and tel them I will go to my Father and to your Father If then the Lord keep the law of the dead that he might be the first begotten of the dead how are they ashamed that say hell is in this world Thus you see it is no strange thing to see this scripture alleadged to proue that Christs soule was not in heauen vntil his visible and glorious ascention Irenaeus a man of more learning and iudgement then I am of alleaged it to the same end aboue 1300. years ago and then it was accompted a currant argument among the learned HVME his reioynder to the 11. sect HEere before you will buckle with this section you thrust for-ward your invincible Goliah as you suppose and will haue him make an end of this battell You say that neither I nor anie of my freends dare meet him You thought so because amongst all his fellowes I mist him onelie But you are deceaued of his valour He hid himself amongst the slaine heapes of his fellowes If I had seene his creast I had seauen stones in a scrip the least wherof was big inâ—â—gh to beat his braine through his helmet The place is in the 17. of Eccles I neede not repeat the wordes First I could haue tolde you that the booke is not Canonicall Secondlie that it was not written in the tongue on the property whereof you build your argument Thirdly that these words the lowermost parts of the earth be not in the originall wherein this book was first written and therfore haue gotten Tom Drummes intertainment by the Geneua translatours lunius Vatablus and divers others Fourthlie that though it had pleased Iesus the sonne of Syrach to cal Hell by that name it will not follow that all other men did vse the worde so Fiftly that you could finde those words in that sense in some place of the Canonicall Scriptures which indeede you cannot it will not follow that whersoeuer wee meete with them they must haue the same signification except the necessarie circumstances doe approue or inforce it Sixtlie that seeing that place is spoken of the mercifull them whose good deedes the Lord doth keep as the aple of his eie it were a bad reward for men whose good deedes are so precious in the Lordes eies to bee casten into the dungeon of Hell Seventhlie and lastlie that seeing the common translator who foisteth in those words doth make it the reward of euery man to be cast into the lowermost parts of the earth it wil passe your skill to proue that euerie man shall be cast into hel The note in the margent of the 25. 35. of Math. helpeth not you but prooueth the contrarie that this place pertaineth to them that giue meat to the hungrie drinke to the thirstie and clothes to the naked c. Thus you may see that this champion is not so strong as you take him and that the note in the margent whosoeuer made it helpeth you like ale in your shoes You tell mee that nowe I am come to my schoole-points which in you I called Sophistrie The true maximes and rules of art sucked out of the marrowes of nature I neuer called Sophistrie in you nor no man else Your shrimpish reasons set out in the painted coates of blased words and confidentlie commended to the beholders without al bounds of modestie I haue called them what I haue called them and not so ill as they deserue My rule which you say were sophistrie if you vsed it as I doe you confesse it to be true in integrall parts Nowe say I the soule and the bodie be integrall parts of a man Ergo by your owne confession my rule is true of the soule and the bodie But if you had taken my maxime right you should haue found it hold in all parts whatsoeuer For I meant that a particular negatiue of the whole is not good to bring in a negatiue of anie particular part All Campion hangeth not ouer New-gate importeth that some part of him haÌ„geth there And all men bee not in England importeth that there be some men there which bee particular negatiues expressed in generall tearmes as non omris and nonnullns