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A13091 The second part of the anatomie of abuses conteining the display of corruptions, with a perfect description of such imperfections, blemishes and abuses, as now reigning in euerie degree, require reformation for feare of Gods vengeance to be powred vpon the people and countrie, without speedie repentance, and conuersion vnto God: made dialogwise by Phillip Stubbes.; Anatomie of abuses. Part 2 Stubbes, Phillip. 1583 (1583) STC 23380; ESTC S112627 103,282 240

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to die a corporall and a spirituall death both yea death of damnation both of body soule for euer Do they thinke that their blod shall not be asked at their hands at y e gret day of the Lord. Do they thinke y t their flieng away from their flock is a mean to preserue their liues y e longer vpon earth Is not God able to strike them as well in the fields as in the city as well in the country as in the towne in one place as well as in another Is not his power eueriewhere Is not his messenger death in al places Saith he not in the booke of Deuteron that if we doe not those things which he hath commanded vs in his sacred word cursed shall wee bee at home and cursed in the fields And saith he not further that the plague and pestilence the botch bile blaine or else what deadly infection soeuer shall followe vs and lay hold vpon vs in what place soeuer we be and shall neuer depart from vs till it haue quite consumed vs from the face of the earth And doe these fugitiues that ouerrun their flocks in time of infection thinke that they shall escape the heauie wrath and vengeance of God for their tergiuersation and backsliding from their duties Doe they thinke that God cannot saue them frm corporal death but with the breach of their duties towards God Is not the Lord as well able to defend them from any deadly infection if it be his good pleasure as he was to defend Sidrach Misaach and Abednego from the flaming fire Daniell from the mouth of the lions Ionas frō the iawes of the mightie whale with manie others that trusted in him Doe they thinke that his arme is shortened or his power weakened Is he not able to deliuer his children that in dooing of their duties depend vpon his prouidence And to bee plaine with them me think that in flieng away from their flockes they shew themselues to thinke that either God is not almightie or else noc mercifull or neither For if they beléeued that he were almightie and that hee were able to saue them then they would neuer run awaie from their flocke but depending vpon his prouidence beléeue that he is as well able to deliuer them in one place as in another if it bee his good pleasure And if they beléeued that he were mercifull then would they rest vpon the same not doubting but as he is almightie and omnipotent and therefore can doe al things so he is most mercifull and therfore wil preserue al those that put their trust in him If a temporall magistrate that exerciseth but a ciuil office in the commonwealth shuld go away from his charge for feare of infection or plague wheras his present abode might do more good than his absence he greatly offendeth how much more then offendeth he that being a pastor or féeder of soules flieth away from his charge wheras his presence might doe a thousand times more good than his absence And if it please the Lord to take them away to himselfe are they not most happie Enter they not into eternal glorie And haue they not an end of all miseries and paines in this life and the perfect fruition of perpetuall ioie in the heauens Are they not blessed if when the Lord shal call them he find them so well occupied as in féeding breaking the bread of life to the pore members of Christ Iesus for whose sakes he shed his hart blood Theod. But they say we ought not to tempt God which thing they must needs doe if they shoulde tarrie when they see death before their face And they say further that it is written that we must keepe the whole from the sicke and the sicke from the whole Besids saie they Natura dedit potestatem tuendi vitam omni animanti Nature hath giuen power of defending of life to euerie liuing creture Againe euery thing fleeth from his contrarie but death is contrarie to nature for it came through the corruption of nature therfore we flie from the same by the instinct of nature These and the like fond reasons they alledge for their excuse in flieng from their flocks and charges what say you to them Amphil. I can saie little to them But onelie this that none of all these reasons doe priuiledge them to discontinue from their flockes and charges And whereas they saie that their staieng were a tempting of God it is verie vntrue it is rather a reuerent obediēce to this tripled cōmandement Pasce oues meas pasce oues meas pasce oues meas Feede my sheepe feede my sheepe feede my sheepe But indeede if it were so that a priuate man who hath no kind of function nor office neither ecclesiasticall nor temporall seeing himselfe if he staie stil in great danger of death might auoid the danger by flieng so by the grace of God prolong his life and yet will not this man if he tarie tempteth the Lord and is a murtherer of himselfe before God And to such it is said thou shalt keepe the whole from the sicke the sick from the whole This is the meaning sence of these words and not that they do priuiledge any man for not doing of his dutie But notwithstanding all that can be said in confutacion of this great extreeme contempt of their duties I haue knowne and doe know some ministers nay wolues in sheepes clothing in Dnalgne that in time of any plague pestilence or infection thogh there hath bin no gret danger at all that haue bin so far from continuing amongst their flock y t if any one of them were sicke although of neuer so cōmon or vsuall disease yet fearing to be infected with the contagion thereof they haue absented themselnes altogither from visiting y e sick according as they ought as dutie doth bind them Yea some of them suppose you of mercenaries hirelings but not of god pastors are so nice so fine so feareful of death forsoth y e in no case they cannot abide to visit the sicke neither by day nor by night But in my iudgement it is as incident to their office and dutie to visite to comfort to instruct and relieue the sicke at the houre of death as it is for them to preach the word of God to their flocke al the daies of their life And peraduenture they may doe more good in one howre at the last gaspe then they haue done all the daies of their life before For he that in his life time hath had in small estimation the blessed worde of God but following his owne humors in hope to liue long hath lead a very wicked and impenitent life nowe through the consideration and sight of death which he seeth before his eies togither with godly exhortations admonitions and consolations out of the word of God may easelie be withdrawne from his former wicked life and dieng in the faith of Iesus Christ with
true repentance for his sinnes to fore committed liue for euer in ioye both of body soule whereas if exhortations had not bin he might happily haue died irrepentant or vtterly desperate to his euerlasting destruction for euer Yea it is cōmonly seene that those who could neuer be wonne to Christ Iesus all the daies of their life before yet at the last howre they are soone recouered Therefore ought not the pastors to neglecte their duties therein but warely and carefully to watche ouer their flocks night and day without ceasing that whē the great shephard of the sheepe commeth he may rewarde them with the immercessible crowne of eternall glory And thus much be it spoken hereof Theod. In whome doth the election of the minister or pastor consist in the church onely or in the bishops Amphil. I tolde you before as I remember that the church might examine the life the conuersation and disposition of him or them whome they would haue to be their pastor and finding the same good to present him or them to the bishops or elders to whome it apperteineth to examine for his sufficiencie in knowledge and dexteritie in teaching and handling the word of God and finding him a man furnished with gifts and graces necessary for such a high vocation to call him lawfullie according to the word of God and so to sende him foorth into the Lords haruest as a faithfull laborer therein Theod. But some are of opinion that the churches themselues of their owne absolute and plenarie power ought to choose their pastor and not bishops Ampil The churches haue no further power in the election of their pastor than as I haue told you that is to iudge of his conuersation integritie of life referring the whole action besides to the bishops and elders For if the churches should elect their minister or pastor of themselues absolutely besides that it would bréed confusion for some would choose one some another some this and some that neuer contenting thēselues with any the church should doe that also which were directly contrarie to the word of God For certeine it is the church hath no absolute power by the word of God to elect their pastor to choose him to cal him orderly in such forme as is appointed in the word obseruing all kinde of rites ceremonies orders belonging thereto Neither was it euer séene that any church did euer practise the same For in the dais of the apostles did the churches any more than choose foorth certeine persons of a tried conuersation presented thē to the apostles And did not the apostles then whom our bishops now in this action do represent lay their hands vpon them approue them after triall had of their sufficiencie in knowledge and sent them forth into the Lords vineyard The churches laid not their hands vpon them or as some call it consecrated them not nor vsed not any other ceremoniall rite in the election of them as the apostles did But as I grant that the church for som cause and in so● respects is not to be excluded frō a consultatiue voyce as before or from being made priuie at al to the election of their pastor so I denie that the church may absolutely of his owne plenarie power cal their pastor all ceremonies and rites thereto belonging obserued for that is to be don and executed of the bishops elders and not of the churches consisting of lay men and for the most part rude and vnlearned Theod. What say you to a seigniorie or eldership were it not good for the state of the church at this day that y e same were established in euery congregation as it was in y e apostles daies Amphil. The seueral estates and conditions of the apostolicall churches and of ours al circumstances duly considered are diuers and much different one from another and therefore though a seigniorie or eldership then in euerie particular church were necessarie yet now vnder christian princes it is not so néedfull The churches then wanted christian princes and magistrates to gouerne the same and therefore had néed of some others to rule in the church But God be thanked we haue most christian kings pri●ces and gouernors to rule and gouerne the church therfore we stand in lesse néed of the other And yet notwithstanding I grant that a seigniorie in euery congregation were to be wished if it could be brought to passe yet cannot I perceiue but that it would rather bring confusion than reformation considering the state of the church at this day For in the apostles times when seigniories were ordeined we read not of any shires dioces or precincts where bishops and ecclesiasticall magistrates might exercise their authoritie and gouernement as now they doe and therefore there being neither bishops ecclesiasticall nor ciuill magistrates as we haue now it was necessarie that the seigniories shuld be ordeined But now we hauing al these things stand not in such necessitie of them as the churches in the apostles daies did Besides the institution of elders was but meere ceremoniall and temporall and therefore not to continue alwaies neither ought the necessitie thereof to binde all churches Neither doe I thinke that all churches are bound for euer to one forme of externall gouernement but that euery church may alter and change the same according to the time and present state therof as they shal see the same to make for the glorie of God and the common peace of the church Theod. What say you to deacons Is their office necessarie or not in the church of God at this day Amphil. Their office which was to make collections for the poore to gather the beneuolencies and contributions of euerie one that were disposed to giue and to sée the same bestoed vpon the poore and néedie members of the church is very necessarie and without doubt ought to be continued for euer But yet is not the church tied to their names onely but to their office Which office is executed by honest substantiall men called Churchwardens or the like chosen by the consent of the whole congregation to the same end and purpose who daily gathering the friendlye beneuolencies of the churches bestow or sée the same bestowed vpon the poore and indigent of the same church which was the greatest part of the deacons duties in the apostles daies So that albeit wee haue not the name we yet hold their office in substance and effect Theod. What is your iudgement ought there to be any bishops in the churches of christians Amphil. To doubt whether there ought to be bishops in the churches of chr●stians is to doubt of the truth it selfe For is there not mention made of their names dignities functions and callings almost in euery chapter of the new testament in all the epistles of Paule of Peter of Iohn of Iude and of all the rest Besides that did not the apostles themselues constitute and ordeine bishops and elders and doe they not woonderfully commende the