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A13383 Of mariage and vviuing An excellent, pleasant, and philosophicall controuersie, betweene the two famous Tassi now liuing, the one Hercules the philosopher, the other, Torquato the poet. Done into English, by R.T. Gentleman.; Dello ammogliarsi piacevole. English Tasso, Ercole.; Tasso, Torquato, 1544-1595. aut; Tofte, Robert, 1561-1620. 1599 (1599) STC 23690; ESTC S118134 52,482 86

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passe to come so neare to bee counted the verie Image of God to vse Bonauenters owne proper termes as we haue done as well because of the probable distinction of the foresaid Doctor Angelicus alleadged before as also in respect of that which we shall héereafter heare of that worthie Alia●us a man of great fame Neither dooth this repugne any thing that we haue said bicause that in the creatiō of the first man it is said that God made both man woman taking their Arguments from thence that therefore there cannot happen betwéene them Anterioritie of times nor principallities or degrees in their endes as the Schoolemen terme it and lesse dooth it hurt vs that it is set downe in the seconde of Genesis that before the Creation of the Woman God himselfe saide hauing respect vnto the encrease of the world Let vs make Man a Helper like vnto himselfe As if from those words wee might inferre that they being both of one and selfe same qualitie should therefore be both either like good or bad As concerning the first Obiection I answer with Augustine in his sixt Booke intreating of such a matter that Moses in that place speaketh of Women Potentially or rather Causually or Seminally for such is his owne phrase and not Actually as he doth when he treateth of Man Which thing well appeareth by the incompatibilitie as I may say of the words that were spoken by which the auncient figure of Plato might be renewed and allowed againe This soueraigne Historiographer Lawgiuer and Captaine of God meaning by this word WOMAN that from her the Uertue Productiue was included within Man himselfe as by the effects following we are satisfied more at large As for the second we denying the Consequence I will shewe the reason why I doo so affirming that amongst likenesse of things there is no necessitie that the similitude should hold in euery point but rather that it chaungeth and turneth for the most part amongst those of diuers kindes according vnto some conformitie or proportion of the same as if we should say that science changing to that that is to be knowne were like vnto the sense with that that is sensible or rather the eye being in the bodie of Man resembled the minde within the inward soule Aristotle in his Topickes setteth vs downe such Presidents and such Likewise doth Hilarius in his Treaties where he discourseth of Sinodes and Epiphanius where he disputeth against the Democriti Augustine sheweth the same with examples of Egs of Stares and Hennes with Wheate and Branne And Sistus the Sanesi with the Oliue and the wilde Hollie Trée Chrysostome alleadgeth in proofe of this the resembling varietie of beastes comparing them vnto Man sinning diuersly We sée also the like by the Names that are attributed vnto God in the sacred scriptures one while giuing him the title of a Lyon another while of a Lambe and an o●her while of an insencible Creature And to be short Saint Aquinas defineth the same in the first Chapter of his first ●omb by the relation of Equalities not alwaies imbracing the endes So that I confessing as I haue done before and now still doo the Communitie of the Woman with Man in her formall and specificall being and so per Consequence in the Edentitie of the ende I say and affirme againe that by so much she commeth behinde him by how much as she is imperfect And know that whosoeuer for all this will most insolently and ouer saucily vphold this second poynt besides that he shall fall into the errour of the Audiani who were of opinion that God had a bodie fleshly and mortall as we haue by reason of the likenesse of his owne shape which he had participated vnto vs hée shall likewise be forced to confesse by the same Text that there was no distinction of the Sexe betwéene Man and Woman for otherwise Moyses and Christ should iumpe and agrée in Nature and fulnesse of Grace seeing it is read in Deuteronomy that Christ as then should come and descend from Moyses for so Moyses himself did affirme Amongst all Creatures then as well Intellectuall as Materiall and mixt Man onely possesseth I say Man by himselfe distinguished from Woman certaine Excellencies and Honours which alone raise him to that height of greatnesse as you haue heard before which moste willingly I woulde héere set foorth if it were fit time and place so to doo as indéed now it is not Yet is it a verie good place and fit time to wonder and admire at the ordinary presumption and audatious boldnesse of these vnworthie women who too too malepert and insolent dare with theyr Brazen and bolde faces venture to call themselues mens Companions as also to bewaile and lament the common ignorance and blockish simplicitie of vs men in this poynt that without hauing any orderly respect at all vnto our owne worthinesse and woorth wee doo still so seruily and abiectly abase ourselues as to yéelde vnto these deuouring and painted sepulchres daining to strike saile so low as to stoupe to our ●lauish inferiours when not only besides what is before repeated God himselfe in Genesis moste manifestly placeth them vnder vs as likewise dooth Saint Peter in his first Chapter So dooth Saint Paule to the Colossians charge them to the Corinthians willes them and to the Ephesians commaunds them to be obedient and to submit themselues vnto vs. And the selfe same Apostle writing vnto the two last mentioned Citties addeth that woman was created for Man and not Man for Woman and that Man is the Head of the Woman as our Sauiour Jesus Christ is chiefe ouer the Churche shall wee then bee head ouer some of the members as ouer the handes ouer the féete and ouer the rest and shall the same goutie foote be so sawcie or so selfe-conceited as to perswade it selfe that she is as good as the head Because then the wife becomes as a mixt substance with him whom shée weddeth euerie one of them as a new Salmare with her Hermites renuing daily Hermophradites shall therefore that which is taken which is the Woman come to be equall with that which taketh which is the Husband Forsooth no. And so in like maner shall not the bodie be of lesse account and lesse noble then the soule although assoone as she inuesteth and incorporateth her self in the same they both liue and loue so entierly togither neuer parting at all one from the other as the wife doth oftentimes from the good man but liue vnited togither vntil death them depart I think it shall be so and that great difference is betwixt them Then worthie Gentlemen let vs rowse our selues out of this drowsie sléepe shaking these base conceits of subiection from out our mindes and let him that is a Man shew himselfe by this absolute power hee hath to be such a one indéed nor let him henceforward part stakes with that which God willeth he should kéepe wholie vnto himselfe I meane this honour and
marrie as it is for such as be poore and diseased to liue without wedding at all And yet I would not so expound his meaning as if it should be different from that of his maisters who if he had thought that Matrimonie had bin bad he would not then haue reprooued the communitie of wiues with which it seemed he was much offended neither that as concerning goods which are as expedient and necessarie for the bringing vp of their children nor haue giuen out that Man was a liuing creature borne to be accompanied and that amongst all other companies belonging vnto a priuate house that of the Husband and of the wife was the principall and chiefest through which spéeches being so plaine me thinketh no man néedeth to doubt of his opinion And after this selfesame manner the authorities of many that you produce may be most trulie interpreted Plato himselfe perswading vs to bring forth children and to bring them vertuouslie vp in the same sort as the Lamp which is lightened giueth light in course from one companie to another And verily that Poet spake passing well that the one gaue the Lamp of life vnto the other no otherwise then is vsed amongst vs at this day in the Galliard or Daunce of the TORCH when the man taketh it of the woman in whose hands it séemeth as it were that both life and death is reposed and placed Musonius a Philosopher of great account affirmeth that weddings were the first beginners and founders of families and housholdes so that whosoeuer goeth about to depriue man of the same destroyeth the House the Citie and all humane ofspring which cannot continue without encrease as the right and lawfull encrease cannot be maintained without Marriage For a Familie or a Citie are not composed of men alone but of men and women together Nay which is more there haue béene Cities and Monarks found in the world consisting onely of women as was that of the Amazons but that there coulde bée an Empire or Kingdome of men without women hath neuer bin yet knowne and therefore wée may conclude by this rule that women are more necessarie amongst themselues and so consequently néeding the lesse the perfection of others And the same Philosopher sayth that the friendship betwéene man and woman is more auncient and of longer continuance then all the rest whatsoeuer Neither doth Hieron the Siracusan differ from this former iudgement for he will haue all our predecessors successors to be borne through societie and companie and that the chiefe and principall of the same are especially knowen and discerned by Marriage for Cities cannot be without families and such families as are not of married folkes do want as defectious and vnperfect for that house cannot be without defect in which Marriage is not because neither the most royallest part of the soule can be without his subiect neither the subiect or inferiour without this which is so royall Antipho Anasfundricus discoursing of Marriage sayth that a perfect life cannot continue nor be without wife and children for that house is as well lame as that Citie is vnperfect in which are women alone or men only But peraduenture we haue giuen too busie and too too lowe a beginning vnto Matrimonie seeing her originall is as it were Celestiall beginning euen then when the soule is first placed and espoused vnto the bodie as Dant writeth who perhaps in this would imitate the auncient Philosophers of which some affirme that Reason doth signorise and dominere in the minde like a Father ouer his familie as she that is most auncient and fittest euen from the beginning of mans birth to discourse and iudge but the cupiditie or gréedinesse of the minde being a womanish passion and ouertender of the soule which is gentle and easie to be brought to relent representeth a woman and Animositie and dauntlesse courage full of aspiring thoughts and princelie heate as he is willing oftentimes to be obedient vnto the minde resembleth a yong man the vnitie and concord of the same which ingendreth and defineth being the affects of this animositie But this cupiditie or gréedinesse of minde is Definite and Determinate and that is vneuen by her owne nature where this is euen although it depend vpon other things that hauing her perfection from her owne selfe and this being made perfect by borrowing of others So then the example of Mariage is in the Soule before it come to be in the house so by this consequence who so destroyeth Mariage not onely separateth man from woman but also the Soule from the Bodie and as it were cutteth off from the Soule his head deuiding it from his other parts so as without doubt adultery is a murtherer as sayth Sperou Speroue By the authorities then of so many worthie Philosophers we ought to beléeue that wiuing is both necessarie and good and we must giue credit vnto Reason who also perswadeth vs vnto the same for if those occasions be bad which corrupt and defile Matrimonie there is no question then but that Mariage it selfe is most excellent and good but it is ouerthrowne by two passing bad things the one is Death which is the finall ende of all euils and is most terrible and the other is Dishonestie which is as it were the death of the Soule Besides if those things are good which conserue the same there is no sense but that Mariage it selfe should be good but it is preserued by life which is most swéete and most desired of euerie one and supported by modest bashfull Chastitie the most lawdable and pretious praise-worthie vertue amongst all others in a woman Againe if pensiue solitarinesse be counted a miserable yrksome and displeasant life then is companie happie delightfull and pleasing but amongst all companies there is none more déerer nor more ioyous then that which is betwéene Man and Wife If to abandon and forsake all lasciuious loue and vnholsome lothsome Curtezans be held an honest part then is chaste Matrimonie honest which is the happie occasion of the same If it be profitable to leaue superfluous pomp and vaine expenses that bringeth too late repentance with it then is this nuptiall band profitable and commodious and if to ende all olde grudges and auncient ciuill enmities bringeth health and prosperitie both to Cities Kingdomes and Common-wealthes then is there nothing more wholesome nor iust then thys so honorable and lawfull coupling together For there can be no greater nor more vpright iustice then to make warre and wage battell for a mans owne wife as Menelaus did for Helena and Cambises the Persian king for his Notesia daughter of Apria king of Egipt from whome Amasis had taken away her kingdome Lastly none can enioy more pleasure in this troublesome life of mortall men then to be blessed with happie frute of comfortable children but these eyther are not enioyd without Marriage or else nothing so happilie nor so lawfully Nay the husband is like the maister of a goodly Garden who at his