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A55033 Scripture and reason pleaded for defensive armes: or The whole controversie about subjects taking up armes Wherein besides other pamphlets, an answer is punctually directed to Dr. Fernes booke, entituled, Resolving of conscience, &c. The scriptures alleadged are fully satisfied. The rationall discourses are weighed in the ballance of right reason. Matters of fact concerning the present differences, are examined. Published by divers reverend and learned divines. It is this fourteenth day of Aprill, 1643. ordered by the Committee of the House of Commons in Parliament concerning printing, that this booke, entituled Scripture and reason pleaded for defensive armes, be printed by Iohn Bellamy and Ralph Smith. John White. Palmer, Herbert, 1601-1647.; England and Wales. Parliament. House of Commons. 1643 (1643) Wing P244; ESTC R206836 105,277 84

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that will follow if he have it not Heare his saying Such power of resistance would be no fit meanes of safety to a State but prove a remedy worse then the disease Reply If he can shew this de doth wonders What worse then subversion of Religion Lawes and Liberties For that is the disease Surely all these are of little worth with the Dr. if he will maintaine any thing in a State to be worse then these Sinne indeed in the practicers is worse then the suffering of the worst Tyranny But that is not properly in question in this Section but the Civill Inconveniences of resistance though I grant they may prove sinnes too as things may be managed but otherwise it is evident no Civill Inconvenience to remedy such a Tyranny as is in dispute can be so bad as the disease The Dr. once more urges Rom. 13. and by ver 3 4 5 6. would faine prove that the Apostle shewes the evill and inconvenience of resisting Tyranny Reply But I have shewed more then once that the Apostles Reasons are quite against him and he saith nothing to prove that hee abuses not the Apostle not vouchsafing I doubt not daring to quote the words as they lie lest every eye should see how hee perverts them much lesse offering to Analize them or shew the strength of the Reasons which I have done against him Onely he repeats what hee hath before told us in generall that although the powers were then altogether unjust c. Nothing answerable to the end for which governing power is ordained Yet doth the Apostle draw his Reasons against resisting them from that good Justice Order for which God hath set up the higher Powers Reply This is as good a Reason as to say God hath ordained Ministers Pastours to preach and administer his word and Sacrament and pray that his people may be saved Therefore though the Ministers Pastours be carelesse and neither afford the People any Word or Sacraments or prayers or false Teachers and pervert Word and Prayer and Sacraments Yet the People may not seeke their Soules safety from some other that will bee more faithfull even though not attempting to put those evill Ministers Pastours quite out of office but leaving them in their places still to see if GOD will give them better minds Only not trusting them so long as they shew themselves notoriously unfaithfull If to deny the people this bee reasonable because God ordained them ministers Pastours for their good though they that are such by Office doe nothing toward it then the Dr may pretend hee discourses with some reason Which yet will not satisfie the Apostles phrases as I have abundantly shewed before But he saith the Apostle would insinuate that the resisting of the Higher Powers even when they are Tyrannicall tends to the overthrow of the Order which is the life of a Common wealth not onely because there is still Order under Tyranny but chiefly because if it were good and lawfull to resist the power when abused it would open a way to the people to resist and overthrow Powers duly administred for the executing of wrath on them that doe evill Reply All this is altogether contrary for 1. The Apostles words will bear no such Insinuations as I have proved 2. If Religion Laws and Liberties be subverted what Order is left under such Tyranny Sure whether Civill order be or not no Religious order is which yet is more worth then the life of a Common-wealth God hath often overthrown Common-wealths for subverting this Religion But never in his Word preferred the ordinary Order of a Common-wealth or the Common-wealth it selfe before 〈◊〉 Religion so as to bid his servants suffer that to bee subverted even wh●n 〈◊〉 by the laws of a Common-wealth rather then the order of the Common-wealth should be endangered by it 3. It is a Signe the Tyranny was deepely and desperately resolved if it cannot be resisted by a meer defence but that must tend to the overthrow of the life of the Common-wealth 4. The tyranny breaks the Order stabs at the life of the Common-wealth and yet the Dr. is so zealous an advocate for it however he deny it that he cryes whore first he cries out of the danger to Order 5. To tend to the overthrow of that Order which is the life of the Common-wealth may be a fallacious phrase Doth it tend so necessarily or in the intention of the Resisters Or rather contrary Or doth it so tend to overthrow it as the Tyranny to be resisted doth All remedies of violent and desperate diseases doe in some Sort tend to the overthrow of the Life of the Body Yet none saies the remedy is worse then the disease which that is knowne to bee mortall the other may prevent death 6. This opens no such gap to the people to resist and overthrow power duly administred as the Doctors doth open a gappe to Tyranny If a man a Prince feare not GOD and know his people principl'd not to resist him in any case what can hinder him from all Kind of Tyranny And I would it were not evident that the presumption of this had made way for what we feele I am sure the Jesuite Contzen whose principles have been followed step by step among us see Mr. Newcomens Sermon ●n Neh. 4. Preached last Nov. 5. to the Parliament encourages a Prince to attempt the subverting the Protestant Religion though establish't by Law because the Protestants will not Rebell for the cause nor ever did The Dr. seconds him well But now a people if voyd of conscience yet will find it hard and thinke it so if they have any wit for them to hope to overthrow powers duly adminstred It is not so easie a thing multitudes will stand as their duty and their comfort experienced commands them for such powers And the Order that is setled will much help to represse such unruly disorders And though there be examples in Storyes of people that have prevayled against Tyrants Yet I remember not one that ruling according to Laws was overthrown by the people namely in setled times for the souldiers mutynies against the Roman Emperours Pertinax and others will not reach this case Finally Wee are farre from saying that pretences suffice or even that every act of Tyranny allowes of a Nationall resistance But such as in the case by the Dr. stated shews or gives just grounds to believe a designe to subvert Religion Laws and Liberties or any of them But the Dr. will illustrate or prove his inconveniences 3. wayes 1. This power of resistance if admitted and pursued may proceed to a change of Government The principles that are gone upon and have carried it on so farre as we see at this day may also lead it on to the greatest of evills Repl. Is not the King much beholden to the Dr. that will needs urge the Parliament to those consequences they have professed to have no thought of and in their late Declaration