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A15691 A godly and learned answer, to a lewd and vnlearned pamphlet intituled, A few, plaine and forcible reasons for the Catholike faith, against the religion of the Protestants. By Richard Woodcoke Batchellor of Diuinitie. Woodcoke, Richard. 1608 (1608) STC 25965; ESTC S104839 92,243 124

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Originals and binde to a corrupt translation as Authon●●cal You suffer not the Scriptures to be vulgarly translated and read Thus you haue the Scriptures as in a prison but as you should haue them to make them common to all men by reading preaching and teaching you haue them not The interpretation of Scriptures you haue such as may stand with your Popish practise which is the priuie rule of your interpretation and such as it pleaseth the Pope to prescribe you But true interpretation of Scripture according to the plainer principles thereof and the rule of faith which Augustine so much commendeth you neither haue nor wil hade nor suffer others to haue if you may let it and so your interpretation is priuate as either being the Popes or proceeding from your owne faction addicted to your receiued practise but ours is the interpretation of the Spirit of God testified by himselfe in the Scriptures inspiried by him as by the Scriptures and the rule of faith we prooue and therefore blasphemously by you called priuate Seeing therefore the visibility of your Church is in those things which may be seen partly among the heathen partly in a false Church which the longer it continueth the worse You haue but some shew of the Fathers on your side when indeede they are against you and so haue not the antiquity of truth but of error you neither haue the Scriptures as you should haue them for your selues and others nor their true sense and interpretation but onely of your owne making your Popish faith though it be olde in it selfe yet in respect of the daies of our Fathers our Sauiour Christ the Apostles and Prophets the daies thereof haue been but few and euill and therefore it is not the olde Catholike Apostolike faith whatsoeuer this false and forcelesse Reasoner hath sayed PAPIST A short Addition Beleeue assuredly and holde for certaine that no Heretike and Schismatike that vniteth not himselfe to the Catholike Church againe how great almes so-euer hee giue yea or shed his bloud for Christes name can possibly be saued For manie heretikes by the cloake of Christes cause deceiuing the simple suffer much but where no true faith is there is no iustice because the iust liueth by faith so it is also of Schismatikes because where charitie is not no iustice can be there which of they had they would neuer plucke in peeces the bodie of Christ which is the Church A Sentence of S. Austin worthie to be noted of such as thinke that men which liue vertuouslie may goe to heauen though they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor be members of his true Church For as most certaine it is that none which beleeue not all the articles of the Catholike faith can be saued though to the eies of the world be liue or die neuer so well for without faith it is as Paul saith vnpossible to please God And S. Athanasius telleth vs that whosoeuer will be saued before all things it is necessarie that he holde the Catholike faith which faith without euerie one shall keepe whole and inviolate without doubt he shall perish for euer so no lesse certaine it is that although we beleeue neuer so well yet if we liue not according to that faith and so abstaine from communicating with heretiques in their seruice and Sacraments we cannot be saued For hee that shall denie Christ before men Christ also will denie him before his Father in heauen as himselfe saith And if we may without sinne temporize and frame our conscience according to the law when shall we take vp our Crosse and follow Crist as himselfe willeth vs And vvhat meant the blessed Apostles and so manie 1000. of Martyrs to shed their bloud for Christ of an inward and secret faith might haue brought them to heauen and they might outwardlie haue yeelded to Princes lawes and keepe their conscience to themselues This doctrine Christes seruants know not it is deuised only for the colde comfort of such as loue this vvorld too much and feare persecution But let such thinke of this saying of our Sauiour Feare ye not them that kill the body and are not able to kill the soule but rather feare him that can destroy both body soule into hel and let them imitate noble Eleazarus Mart. 2. 28. who rather made choise of cruell death then to dissemble in the cause of religion and do that with the scandal of others which of it selfe was no sinne at all PROTESTANT Augustines Sentence De fide and Pet. Diac. cap. 39. is one●● thus much Formissimè tene nullatenus dubites quemlibet hareticum siue schismaticum in nomine patris filij spiritus sancti baptizatum si ecclesiae Catholicae non fuerit aggregatus quantascunque eleemosinas fecerit si pro Christi nomine sanguinem fuderit nullatenus posse saluari that is Firmly beleeue by no meanes doubt that euery heretike or schismatike being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost how great almes soeuer he do yea though hee shed his bloud for Christs name yet if he be not gathered to the Catholike Church by no meanes can be saued This sentence though not word for word yet in effect you rehearse but you ad therunto more words whereof Augustine in that place hath neuer a one yet in the end conclude a sentence of S Austen as if all that goeth before were his sentence in that chapter It seemeth therefore that you read not Augustines words your selfe but borrowed them some where without discerning where Augustines words ended The rest is a truth but not true that Augustine there hath such a sentence what would you now inferre out of this sentence of Augustine First that men though they liue neuer so vertuously yet if they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor bee members of his true Church cannot be saued Secondly that if men beleeue neuer so well yet if they liue not according to the faith and so absteine from communicating with heretiks in their seruice and sacraments they cannot be saued and so proceede on to condemne those that outwardly haue yeelded to Princes Lawes and keepe their consciences to themselues All which may with no gaine to you be yeelded it the chiefe termes be well vnderstood to witte Catholike Church Catholike Faith and Heretikes or Schismatikes For if the Popish Church be not the Catholike Church nor the Popish Faith the Catholike Faith nor they Heretikes or Schismatikes that stand in opposition to Poperie or do depart from Popish communion then what gaine you by this whole addition But it is a world to see into what a maze you haue ledde the poore sheep of your flocke that no sooner they heare Catholike Church or Catholike Faith but by and by they thinke of Popish Church and Popish Faith betweene which there is no lesse difference then betweene light and darknes And againe when they heare of Her●tikes they presently
the Angels we hold them neither for patrons nor protectors Which honor we giue onely to the Sonne of God the head of Angels Neither doubt we but as farre as their ministerie extendeth toward vs so far they know our necessities and prayers But infinit knowledge which is proper to the Deity we ascribe not vnto them Neither is such limited knowledge in them any sufficient ground to leade vs to pray vnto them The Angel that was sent to informe Iohn the Euangelist in the visions reuealed notwithstanding the wonderfull counsell of God whereof he was then a minister an interpreter yet would not suffer Iohn to fall downe to him which is much lesse Apoc. 19. 10. then to pray to him For to whom we pray to him very religiously and lawfully we may fall downe Many reuelations of things secret remote were granted to the Prophets in old time and namely to Elisaeus yet read we not that any man did euer pray to them though some in reuerence to their ministerie the power of God administred by them did fall downe to them And yet how finely or rather grosly you can assume without proofe or shew of proofe that we may pray to our mortall brethren haue you either precept or example for it in all the Scripture Indeed we request and receiue one from another the helpe of our mutuall prayers call you this praying to our mortall brethren thus can you proue one paradoxe by another These be your forcible and plaine reasons for your falsly named Catholike faith PAPIST Seuenthly in the Geneua Psalmes annexed to the Communion Limbus Patrum booke and vsually sung in their churches they confesse that Christs soule descended to the Fathers that were in Limbo For this article of the Creed He descended into hel they turne into Meetor after this manner His soule did after this discend Into the lower parts To them that long in darknesse were the true light of their harts PROTESTANT First you corrupt the Meeter changing for your purpose Spirit into Soule The meeter hath Spirit not Soule Secondly what the translator meant by Spirit and by the lower parts it is not easie to define vnlesse himselfe had left some glosse vpon his owne meeter and considering that the lawe of meeter restrained him from libertie of plaine speech it were an iniury to him to wrest his words cōtrary to his meaning That by lower parts he meant your Limbus you haue nothing to perswade you but your owne preiudice that caries you so to vnderstand it It may be that by Spirit hee meant the power of his eternall Spirit which in his suffering and after his suffering wrought both in heauen vpon earth and vnder the earth euen vpon the bodies of the dead who were in the lower parts and lay in darknes as generally the dead do Hilarie speaketh to like effect Monetur terra capax enim mortus huius esse non poterat c. The earth Hilar. in Matth. Can. 33. Potestas aeternae virtutis was moued for it could not conteine him that was dead The rocks were clouen for the piercing word of God and the power of his eternall vertue had broken into all places how strong and well fenced soeuer And the graues were opened for the prisons of death were vnlocked And many bodies of the Saints that slept arose for he inlightning the darknes and shining into the obscuritie of the lower places for the presēt raising of the saints asleep took away the spoiles of death it selfe What is the power of his eternall vertue but his eternal spirit Whereby he brake into the holds of death the darknesse of death the obscurity of the lower parts caried away the spoiles of death did inlighten with the brightnes of his power the whole region of darknes to the cōfort of all that waited for his cōming All which Hilarie saieth were done not by his soule but that nature which he calleth Penetrās Dei vertū potestas aeternae vertutis that is his Deity And the scripture speaking of the faithful departed although the soule body by dissolution be in diuerse regions yet speaketh of the whole person together So saith the Apostle Peter of Dauid the patriake He is both dead and buried his sepulchre remaineth with vs. And the like in many Acts. 2. 29. other places wherfore the Power of Christ piercing to the dead was a cōfort to all the faithfull departed If this were his meaning as by comparisō of the former place of Hilarie we may very well iudge what seruice I pray you can this meeter do to your Limbus But whatsoeuer his mening were his priuate interpretation is no principle of our religiō neither can you be ignorāt that there be that hold some locall discent of Christ yet be far from holding your Limbus so might the author of that meeter likewise do Albeit we hold that article for a principle of our religion yet are not the sundry expositions thereof according as seuerall men haue conceiued so many principles of our religion you must therefore seeke further for principles to serue your turne PAPIST Lastly Martin Luther taught the Real preseuce maintained Real presence it against the Zwinglians as others of our Aduersaries cānot denie and yet doth the Apologie of England penned by M. Iewel call him a most excellent man sent of God to giue light to the world How then can it be contrarie to the scripture for if it were so then surelie could he not be a man sent of God for the matter of the Sacrament is no small point but such as themselues will say that a wrong beliefe thereof bringeth damnation PROTESTANT Did Martin Luther teach Popish Reall prefence did he teach Transubstantiation of the bread into the body of Christ Did he teach carnall eating of Christs flesh In the Act. 10. Augustane confessiō wherein he was a chiefe part thus they cōfesse Of the supper of the Lord they teach that the body bloud of Christ are truely present distributed to them that eate in the Lords supper We say the same in the Articles agreed vpon at Marpurg Octob. 3. 1529. Whereunto Martin Luther first subscribed we all beleeue and thinke that the Sacrament of the Altar is the Sacrament of the true Histor August Confess Spiritual eating body and bloud of Iesus Christ that the spirituall eating of this body bloud is chiefly necessary for euery Christiā man We say the same In certaine articles setting the state of the controuersie betweene Luther and P●●cer and the rest of the Cinglians as they are called Although we say that the bodie Artic. 2. In aliqua mole of Christ is really present yet Luther sayth not that it is present locally to wit in any bignes circumscriptiuely but after that maner whereby Christs person or whole Christ is present to his whole Church and to all creatures Luther saith not that Christs
as touching his retorne from hell neither in this place do they so interpret Dauids words nor in any other place rightly vnderstood make any mention of it If the place then be to be vnderstood of the resurrection and that in both causes Thou wilt not leaue my soule in graue nor suffer thine holy one to see corruptiō As Peter Act. 2. 31. expresly saieth the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must needes be vnderstood of the place from whence he was raised which was the graue Neither make it any thing against this sense that his soule was not in the graue For first the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 heere carieth the same sense that Nepheth doth in the Psalme It is so cleere that that word must be taken for a dead body oftentimes as Beza hath obserued that as Doctor Fulke against Martine hath obserued of fiue places by Beza alleaged Leuit. 19. 28. 21. 1. 11. Num. 5. 2. 9. 10. where the word Nepheth must needes haue that sense your owne vulgar hath so translated it in all these places but the last and therefore this place being spoken of the resurrection it may likewise be so vnderstood heere besides doth not the scripture speaking of Dauid say His sepulchre remaineth with vs vnto this day Is not Dauids soule a part of Dauid yet was not Dauids soule in his sepulchre nor died nor was buried see you not then that the word Soule before is put for the manhood as in the article of our faith wee say Christ died and was buried not that the whole manhood was buried but the one part which is yet denōinated of the whole And while the body lyeth and corrupteth in the graue the soule in that behalfe suffereth a priuation although it be not shut vp with the body in the graue and thus Dauids soule was and is left in the graue in regard of the body which there remaineth in corruption Christes soule in like sense was there while the body lay in the graue but was not left in the graue because the body remained not there to see corruption And indeed whosoeuer doth rightly and religiously obserue the opposition betweene Christ and Dauid in these words shall soone perceiue what is heere meant both by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For of Christ the Psalmist saith Thou shalt not leaue my soule in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Of Dauid Peter saith He died and is buried his Sepulchre remaineth with vnto this day But his soule remaineth neither in hell nor properly in the graue in these things therefore there is no opposition But this place must be so vnderstood that there may be opposition That which is of Dauids part is plaine he is to this day left buried and in his graue that which is of Christ must be contrarie that his body was not left in the graue vnlesse the sense of this place and these words be so taken the Apostle doth not sufficiently prooue that Dauid spake of the resurrection of Christ Hee rather spake in your vnderstanding of the deliuerie of Christes soule out of hell which might haue beene if it had pleased him in soule to descend thither albeit his body had still remained and seene corruption in the graue Thus to maintaine your erroneous fansies you sticke not to ouerthrow a speciall argument which the holy Ghost vseth against the Iewes to prooue the resurrection of Christ out of that Psalme Thirdly because you say it is a malitious corruption against the descending of Christ into hell what if it were translated thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell would it prooue that Christes soule was in hell nothing lesse Augustine vpon that place of the Psalme Quoniam non derelinques animam meam in inferno maketh this glosse Because thou wilt neither giue my soule to be possessed of hell and vpon the next words Neque dabis Sanctum tuum videre corruptionem neque sanctificarum corpus per quod alij sanctificandi sunt corrumpi patieris Thou wilt not saith Augustine deliuer my soule to be possessed of hell nor suffer my sanctified body by which others also must be sāctified to be corrupted Not to be left in hell and not to be deliuered vnto hell with him is all one It is true therefore that God left not his soule in hell because he neuer deliuered his soule to hell and so he neuer came there in soule The same Father writing vpon the 85. Psalme vpon those words Eruisti animam meam ex inferno inferiori conferreth them with the words of this Psalme now in question Quoniam no● der●liquisti animam meam in inferno and giueth this interpretation of both Hee saide that God deliuered his soule from the lower hell because he deliuered him from such sinnes by which be might be brought to the torments of the lower hell As saieth hee a man may say to a Phisician who perceiuing that hee was like to fall into some disease prescribed him a diet for his health thou hast deliuered me from a disease not wherein hee was but wherein hee was like to be and to him that defends him when hee is like to be caried to prison or in danger to be hanged thou hast deliuered my soule from the prison or from the gallowes wherein the party neuer was So Christ taking our sinnes vpon him whereunto hell fire was due and conflicting with the wrath of God being supported by his Father that hee should not be deliuered euer into the power of hell confidently reioyceth in God saying I haue set the Lord alwaies before me he is at my right hand therefore I shall not be mooued wherefore my heart is glad my tongue reioyceth my flesh also shall rest in hope For thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell if you will needes so translate neither wilt thou suffer thine holie one to see corruption not meaning that he had beene in hell or was to be in hell but giuing thanks to God who heard his prayer and preserued him from hell as the Apostle saith Heb. 5. 7. Hee was heard in that which he feared So you see it may be translated as you would haue it and yet you get nothing by it Lastly vpon the 85. Psalme aforesaid Augustine maketh two parts of infernum or hell the one vpon earth the other in the graue or region of death whither the dead depart from whence saieth he God would deliuer our soules by sending his sonne thither Because of these two hells saith he the sonne of God was sent to deliuer vs euerie way Ad hoc infernum missus est nascendo ad illud moriendo To the hell on earth hee was sent when he was borne to the hell in the graue or in death when he died to the which hell saith Augustine Christ came that we might no● remaine in hell To the like effect he writeth vpon the 88. Psalme If Christ went into no other hell then the faithfull
saith Chrysostome and by the commaundement of Christ But Papists admit no triall of their faith but by themselues they are the Church The Pope is the supreame Pastor he that will not heare this Church and this Pastor is held Anathema as an heathen or Publican What is this else but that which Chrysostome saieth they ruling the Church doe openlie and licentiouslie subuert the Church for they prescribe their owne practise for the rule of faith and take away all indifferent meanes of triall and will be both makers and iudges of faith This is the confession of their faith that they are the Church and you must beleeue it and therefore beleeue that all is true which they say whatsoeuer interpretation of the scriptures they deliuer it is the true sence of the scriptures what heresie by this prescription may not be maintained yea what trial of spirits is left to the Church if any one spirit must be thus beleeued without submission to be tried by the Scriptures Come to their conuersation Are not their fruites vvo●nds troubles and manifold mischiefes deposing of Princes inciting of subiects to rebellions procurement of forraine inuasions impoysonings and murthers of Princes and all that stand in their light threatnings of stabbings and cutting of throats finally vnderminings of Parliaments and conue●ances of powder to blowe vp King Queene Prince Nobles Bishops Iudges Commons that without any distinction euen in a moment Can they charge Protestants whō they call heretikes with such sauage wooluish ye diuellish h●llish and stygian practises They draw vnto them all the sonnes of Belial whom they can intise out of all protestant kingdomes and states to make continuall imployment of them to worke the subuersion of their natiue Countries to infect with butcherly and Scith●an crueltie the mindes of subiects by desperate furies to drive men to infamous and vntimely temporall deaths and to eternall damnatiō not caring what become of their bodies or soules so their turnes be serued Can the religion of Protestants be stained with such barbarous and bestiall crueltie They receiue the Sacrament in way of obligation to commit murders to practise rebellions to subuert kingdomes yea they promise before hand and graunt great pardons to such as they procure to vndertake such villanies They make Martyrs of those who for barbarous treasons rebellions and murthers haue iustly suffered such punishment as they deserued both by the law of God and man Are these the works of sheepe or of woolues By their fruites therefore you shall knowe them they are on euery side full of sharpe and cruell prickles If they speake they equiuocate if they be silent there are seauen abhominations in their hearts as the sequele hath euer prooued if they be angry they are mad nothing will serue but inuasions rebellions poysonings powder treasons and all maner fell and cruell practises If they be patient they waite a time to hurt and in the meane time they are preparing some mischiefe as manifold experience hath prooued and the sunne hath often seene If they do euill they are not ashamed as the desperate obstinacie of the late powder traytors shewed If they do any thing well they doe it for vaine glory to beseene of men and to get a name to themselues Is this the Church whereof euery man must be a member or else he cannot be saued is this the Catholike faith is this to liue according to the faith will any man be so blinded that for loue or zeale to such a Synagogue or for awe or feare of the curse of such cursed workers he will refuse to ioyne with the Protestants in their seruice Sacraments My deare brethren put no trust in any childe of man which by Augustines confession our Sauiour Christ forbiddeth Pin not your saluation vpon his sleeue that may go to hell himselfe I meane the Pope Beware of them that outwardly weare onely sheepes clothing but inwardly are very rauening Woolues as you finde by their fruits Trust not them that will be tried for their truth and honestie by none but themselues suspect their honestie that shut vp the Scriptures from you which our Sauiour Christ cōmanded all men to search Finally inquire whether Christ or any Apostle or any holy Councel or Father did euer put poyson sword or powder into mens hands to murther the sacred persons of Kings to ruinate whole Kingdomes and to promote the faith of Christ by poyson sword and fire If you finde any such president hearken to this forcible reasoner and all other Iesuites and Seminaries refuse our Churches our seruice and Sacraments If not disclaime that religion that faith that seruice that Sacrament that serueth to combine such conspiracies that must get vp and prosper by such monstrous and endlesse crueltie God of his mercie open your eyes that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ Iesus may shine vnto you that you may be able to discerne the mysterie of iniquitie which of long time hath wrought in the Kingdome of Antichrist that you may knowe the synagogue of Satan from the Church of Christ and at length come out from Babylon and escape the wrath present and to come and finally be saued by the only faith of Iesus Christ to whom be glory for euer Amen FINIS