the Canonical scriptures Phâ— Answer I do not denye it But no man is able to proue that the Israelites kepte the body or bones of Ioseph for to haue them to be worshipped For no maÌ„ did fal or knele doun before Iosephs tomb no man did bring the cheste that his body or bones were in into the Tabernacle no man did light candels or tapers beefore it But Ioseph woulde by thys meane confirme and establish the faith of his people in the promisses of gâ—d 〈…〉 â—ouching the lande of be heste For so doth Ioseph say to his bretherne I am redy to dye and god will surely visite you and brâ—ng you out of this laÌ„d vnto the land whiche hâ— sware vnto Abraham vnto Isaac vnto Iacob And Ioseph toke an other of the children of Israell saying God will surely visite you and yâ— shal cary my bones hence Paule beynâ— a faithfull expositour of this facte or dede of Ioseph by faith Hebr â—1 saith he Iosephe when he died made mention of the departing of the children of Israel and gaue coâ—â—aundement of hys bones That is because he doubted nothing of the worde and promise of god therfore did he coÌ„maunde his brethern at their goyng out of Egipt to cary out his bones into the land of ChanaaÌ„ So sure was he that the lord would according vnto his promises bring the children of Israell oute of Egipte into the lande that he had promised vnto their forefathers After Moses there were none among the prophets more samoê° ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ of greatter renoune than Samuell and Hâ—lias were Samuel Helias 〈…〉 5 2 Kâ—n 2. Yet we do not reede that any memoriall was appointed or set vp for him For the holye scripture doth plainly speak of his death and buriyng after this maner Samuell died and all Israell dyd gather them selues together and did wepe for him did bury him in his house in â—ama 〈…〉 As for Helias he was taken vp in a syâ—e chariot not into a temple made with handâ—s but into heaueÌ„ partly that in that exâ—mple we myght haue a most infallible testimony of our immortality and of that moste excellente reâ—aâ—de that GOD hathe prepared and layed vp for his faythfull prophetes and partelye that by this meane all occasion of worshipping this holy prophetes body might be taken away Some of the anciente writers are of opinion that the body of the blessed virgin Marye Epiphani was either by the angels caried vp into heauen or els by their ministery buried in such a place as is knowen vnto no maÌ„ vnto this day because that god would not haue that chosen vessel the temple of his holy spirit and the mother of his onely begotten sonne to be made anidole of superstitious and euill disposed persons The holy scripture doth speak thus of Eliseus the prophete Elizeus â— Kin 13. And Elizeus died and they buried him And certaine bandes of the Moabites came in to the lande that yere And as they wer burying a man beholde they sawe the souldiours therfore they did cast the man into the sepulchre of Elizeus and wheÌ„ the man was doune and touched the bones of Elizeus he reuiued or lyued again and stoode vpon his fete And yet we rede not that after this miracle the bones of Elizeus were taken vp and translated or that there was anye pylgrimage appoyncted vnto theym or a churche of S. Elizeus buylded and set vppe We rede in Ecclesiasticus or in the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach that after Elizeus death Eccl. â—8 his body prophecied and that as he did wonders in his lyfe so in deathe were his workes merueylous And that yet for all thys the people repented not nor departed from their sinnes VVhy the dead that â—â—a caste in to â— Elizeus â—â—auâ— taâ—eâ— againe It doth appeare theÌ„ that this miracle was not doone for to teach the people to worship or to geue godly honour vnto the faithful seruantes of god but that therby the auctoritye of Elizeus whose doctrine in hys life thei conteÌ„ned might be confirmed that at this sight they might embrace the same doctrine and turn again vnto the lorde their god with all spede and so escape the destruction that honge ouer their heades for their stubburnesse disobedience and rebellioÌ„ 1. Kin. â—â— Vnder that most holy godly prince Iosias when the bones of the fals prophets were breÌ„t the sepulchre of the maÌ„ of god was not ones touched yet we rede not that there was any pilgrimage vsed to it Obâ—e 12. Dâ— All these examples are only examples of the olde Testament But what exaumples can ye bring out of the neue PHILA Answer Math. 11. Math 14. Act. â— Among them the are borne of womeÌ„ there arose not a greater as oure sauiour Iesus Christ doth testifye him self than Iohn Baptist But the holy euangelist S. Mathew writeth thus of him And when Iohn was beheaded his disciples came and toke vp his body and did bury it Of Stephen the first martir of Christe Luke in the Actes of the Apostelles doth write on this manner And certayne men fearing god caried Stephen among theym to be buried made great lamentation for him Yf the taking vp or translating of the bodies of the dead Saincts had ben profitable vnto the churche of Christe neyther the olde ancient churche that was afore him nor yet the primitiue church that was nexte after him shoulde haue wanted it or bene without such honoring of the faithfull seruantes of god if god would haue them to be honored after the same sorte Therfore lette no man maruell that I will in no wyse alowe the doynges of kinges and princes and of bishops which be contrarye to the scriptures and worde of god and that I do vtterly reiecte the argumentes of Hierome The auctoâ—â— of â—od 〈…〉 as both weake and repugnant vnto goddes holy and sacred booke the warraunt and auctoritye of which ought to be preferred before the autority of aungels much more then before the auctoritie of corruptible and mortall men I would wyshe that leauing the bodies of the dead Saintes in the place appointed of God for theym there to reste in peace and in hope of their glorious rising again we should haue in due reuerence their true reliks whiche are 〈…〉 the exaumple of theyr stedfast fayth and beliefe their godlye lyfe and conuersation and theyr sound doctrine that they haue left behynd them for our instruction and the edifiyng of the true church of god Albion I maruell that ye do so stoutly defend Vigilantius Doth not this holy father and doctour of the holy catholike church I pray you lay to his charge that he did rayse vp againe and reuiue the heresy of the Caines whiche as a Scorpion did venime the whole body of the churche It appeareth by the booke whyche Tertullian dydde write of heresyes Teâ—â— li. haâ—â— where he speaketh of the errours of the Ophites
shall not come into iudgement or into condemnation but is past from death to lyfe And in an other place god saith he sent not his son into the worlde that he should condeÌ„ne the world Iohn 3. but that the worlde through him might be saued he that beleueth in him shal not be condemned but he that beleueth not Iohn 12 is alredy condemned because he beleueth not in the name of the onely begotten sonne of god Again yf any man heare my wordes and beleue not I iudge him not for I came not to iudge the world but to saue the world He that refuseth me and receaued not my wordes hath one that iudgeth him the word that I haue spoken shal iudge him in the last day By these wordes of Christ it doth plainely appeare fyrste that as long as Christ is in his priesthode and sitteth in the throne of grace he doth not execute the office of a iudge but the office of a priest and mediator and secondly that the faythful beleuers are deliuered from the streightnes rigour and seuerity of the iudgement wherby Christ shall iudge the world in the last day Therfore those scriptures that do set forthe vnto vs Christes priesthoode and the fruites therof ought most diligently to be considered borne in mynd and remembred Them shal ye haue as it hath bene already declared before in the 7. and 9. chapter of the epistle to the Hebrues in which epistle Hebr 5. VVhat ought be our shoote anker the Apostell doth ernestly exhorte vs to come vnto the throne of mercye and grace Thys then ought to be our shoote ankre that our sauiour Iesus Christ is not onely appointed of the father to be our iudge but also to be our mediatour aduocate and intercessour and that therfore we must endeuour our selues to bee of the numbre of the faithfull beleuers vnto whom by the blood of our sauior Iesu Christ Math. 11 the waye is open into the holy place and vnto the seate of grace which is sett foorth of God for all them that are laden and doo labor in this peynfull way of synne wretchednesse and miserie so that they will take hold vppon the promises of God sealed vp vnto vs by the blood of his onely begotteÌ„ sonne our sauior Iesus Christe Didy QuestioÌ„ We reade and heare that our sauiour Iesus Christe maketh intercession for vs how I beseche you ought this to be vnderstanded Is it to be thought that he is kneling before the maiestie of god his father and that holdyng vp his haÌ„des and shewyng his woundes vnto hym he dothe pray for vs for such doctrine haue we ben taught heretofore Philalethes Ansvver to the question We muste haue no suche grosse imagination of the intercession of the sonne of God But with the apostle we oughte to vnderstande that Christe doothe so stande or appeare before the face or in the syght of GOD that the vertue of his deathe shal stand and bee vnto vs for a perpetuall and euerlastyng intercession Heb. 12. And for this cause it is sayd that his bloode speaketh better thynges The blood of Abel crieth for veÌ„geaunce Gene. 4. than the bloode of Abell for the bloode of Abell beynge shedde with the handes of his cruelle brother Cayne dydde from the earth crye vnto the. LORDE for vengeance but the bloude of our sauiour Iesus Christe beyng ones shedde for vs vppon the aultare of the crosse and where thorough an euerlastynge Testament and priesthoode is confyrmed and sealed vp vnto vs is in perpetuall remembrance before GOD and dothe of him obtaine continually mercy vnto vs. Albion Obiect 8 Yf we oughte not to pray vnto dead Saintes eyther because that we haue no nede of intercessours to godwarde or elles because that Christe is oure onely mediatoure betwixt his heauenly Father and vs why then it shall not be lauful that we praye one for an other Iames. 5. as Iames doth bidde vs saying Praye one for an other that ye may be saued Now if according to Iames saying we may godly praye one for an other who shall let Answer but that the Saints in heauen should pray and make intercession for vs Philalethes All that hath ben sayd hetherto dothe onely tende to this that we maye vnderstande that in the tyme of our trouble we haue accesse vnto the father through oure onely mediator Iesu Christ Now the praiers that we do here in this life of a brotherly charitie loue make one for another be not repugnant vnto that but the doctrine of the inuocation of dead Sainctes is all together repugnant And as for the place Hovv the plaâ—e of Iames is to bee vnderstaded that ye haue aleaged out of Iames be sayth not there Let som pray for the other but praye one for an other that ye may be saued wherby he requyreth of vs an assured affiance truste and confidence in our heauenly father through his sonne Iesu Christ and suche an earneste loue towardes our neighbor that wee countyng his miseries troubles and aduersities our owne we should at all tymes with a good confidence commende his saluation vnto God oure heauenlye father The which thyng that form or maner of prayeng whiche the eternall wisedome of the Father hath prescribed vnto vs dothe most chiefly reqâ—â—â— of all his faithfull congregation biddyng vs to pray after this sorte Oure father which art in heauen c. Who can say this prayer but that he must praye for all the membres of the same body that he is of Againe doo not the other like wise in this prayer commende his saluation vnto God Moreouer the wordes of Iames be so that by theim wee are bounde to pray for those that praye for vs. If the dea Saintes than doo make intercession for vs we are bound also to praye or make intercession for them But that were to do the sainctes great iniurie and wrong For thus it is written in their owne canons The canoÌ„s do playnly affirm that to pray for the saincte vvhich bee in heauen it is to doo theÌ„ iniury Iniutiam fâ—â—it martyri qui orat promartyre He doâ—he wrong vnto a martyr that prayeth for a martyr Secondely we are commaunded to pray one for an other that we may be saued Whereby it dooth appere that we ought to pray one for an other whiles we are yet in the way of saluation that we may spedily oâ—â—ne to our ways ende But the dead Saints ar alredy at their iorneys end The praiers that vve make one for an other vvhile vve lyue vvhat they do require and vvhat they vvorâ— In fine this prayer that we make one for an other whiles we are yet a lyue fyrste it requireth a confidence or boldnes to praye vnto god the father and it is so farre of that is should stoppe that accesse or waye that by the bloude of his sonne Iesu Christe is opened for vs vnto him that rather it maketh it the easier Secondlye
it doth kinâ—ell nouryshe and encrease in vs a brotherlye loue But the inuocation of dead saintes doth quenche them both Albion Obie 9 I thynke that the Saincts that be alreadye in heauen doo of a brotherlye loue praye for vs. For they are members of the same bodye that we bee of and loue vs and therfore withoute all doubte they doo praye for vs. Are not Hierony contra vâ—gilaÌ„tium I pray you these Hieromes wordes against Vigilantius Dicis in libello tuo quod dum viuimus 〈◊〉 pro nobis orato possimus post quam autem mortui fuerimus nullius sit pro â—ocxaudienda oratio praesertim cum martyres sui sanguinis â—tionem obsecrantes impetrate non quluerunt That is Thou sayest in thy booke that whyles we lyue we may pray one for an other but after we be dead Reue. 6. no prayer that is made for an other shal be hearde speciallye sith that the martyrs praiyng for the vengeaunce of their bloud coulde not obtaine their petition Yf the Apostelleâ— and martyrs canne pray for other when they ought yet to bee carefull for theim selues howe much more doo they praye after theyr crounes Exod. 3â— Act. 7. victories and triumpheâ— Moyses beyng one man dothe obteyne pardon for .vi. hundred thousand harnessed men And Stephen beyng folower of his maister and the first martyr in Christ doth pray for his persecutors Act 27. and after that they begynne to be wyth Christe shall they be of lesse ablenesse Paule the Apostell saithe the lxxvi soules were geuen him in the shyppe And shall he nowe beyng after his resolucion wyth Christe holde his peace and not bee able to open his mouth for theym that in all the whole world did through his preachyng beleue to gospell By these wordes of Hierome we do learne that yf the dead Sainctes whyles they were yet in the earth dydde of a compassion and loue pray for their poore bretherne whome they sawe to be in misery Answer much more they will doo the same beeyng now in perfection and in glorie with they head Phialethes It is easy to say that the dead Saints do of a loue that they beare vnto vs beyng yet in the coÌ„bate make intercession for vs but how can that bee proued by the scriptures and worde of God without the whiche no maner of doctrine ought to be receaued of the faithefull congregation of God If ye argue or reason after this sorte The dead Saintes doo loue vs and therfore they pray for vs for wheÌ„ they were yet in this life they prayed diligently for their bretherne The argument of the pâ—pâ—sts beaten vpon then ovvn heades whome they loued by and by it may be answered that they also did wepe with them that dyd wepe shall we say that they do nowe the same in heauen for christen and brotherly loue dothe not onely pray for the afflicted but it doth also weepe with theim that doo weepe Didymus I am afrayed brother Albion that ye shall be faine to seeke an other argumente for to proue that the dead Saintes doo pray for vs PHIL. Again if they pray how doo they pray I beseche you whether doo they particularly praye make intercession for them of whom they be called vpon Aâ—gu li. de cuâ—a pro mor his agenda prayed to or do they generally praye make intercession for al vs Saint Augustine dothe plainely affirme that the soules of the saintes that be in heauen do not know what the lyuing doo here in earth His wordes are these If the soules of the dead were present in the matters or businesses of the liuing or shuld talke with vs when we se them in our slepe that if I should holde my peace of the other my godly mother wold neuer a night forsake me which folowed me both by sen by land that she myght lyue in my companie For God forfend that she should in the blessedfull lyfe be made more cruell in so muche that when any thyng troubleth my heart she wold comfort me hir son beyng in heauinesse whome she loued entierly whom she would neuer see to be striken in sadnesse But verily the same which the sacred psalme doothe sound or set out is true Psal â— My father and my mother haue forsaken me but the Lorde hath taken me vp If then oure parentes haue forsaken vs howe hee they present in our affaires and carefulnesse or in our eares Nowe if our parentes be not present who of the other dead doo knowe what we doo or what we suffer Osaie the Prophete saieth Esa 63. Thou arte our father Abraham was ignorant of vs and Israell knew vs not If these greate Patriarches were ignorant what was doone vnto the people that descended of them vnto whom beleuyng in God promyse was made that the same people should come of their stocke how are the dead present for to know and helpe the affaires and doinges of the liuyng Howe shall we say that they haue a good turn or are wel prouided for which dyed afore the calamities did come Note which ensued and folowed after their death yf after theyr decesse they haue also a feelynge of those thyngs that doo chance in the calamitie of mans lyfe Or doo we peraduenture through error speake these thyngs iudge them to be quiete whom the troublesom life of the liuing do vnquiete What is it then that god doth for a great benefite promise vnto that godly kyng Iosias that he should die afore lest he shoulde see those calamities plages and miseries whiche be threatned shold come vpon the place vpon the people These are gods wordes Thus saith the Lord god of Israel 2. Kin. 22. 2 Chr 34. The wordes that thou hast heard shall come to passe But because thine heart did melt thou didst humble thy self before god whaÌ„ thou heardest his wordes against this place against the inhabitaÌ„tes therof huÌ„blest thy selfe before me tarest thy clothes and didst wepe before me I haue also heard it saith the Lord. Beholde I wil gather thee to thy fathers and thou shalte be put in thy graue in peace and thyne eyes shall not se al the euil which I wil bring vpoÌ„ this place vpon the inhabitants of the same He beyng frayed with the threatnynges of God had wepte and torne his clothes and therfore he was certifyed that he shoulde be taken awaye by deathe and so reste in peace that he shoulde not see all those euylles Ibi ergo sunt spiritus Defunctorum vbi non vident quaecunque aguntur aut eueniunt in ista vita hominum VVher the spirites of the godly be There therfore are the soules of theim that be departed where they doo not see all those thynges that are done or doo chaunce in the lyfe of men These are saint Augustines wordes who doth plainly denie that the blessed soules of the dead doo entermedle them selues to knowe and healpe the affaires of