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death_n body_n heaven_n soul_n 11,370 5 5.1820 4 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A02422 The co[n]futacyon of the fyrst parte of Frythes boke with a dysputacyon before whether it be possyble for any heretike to know that hym selfe is one or not. And also an other, whether it be wors to denye directely more or lesse of the fayth, put forth by Iohn Gwynneth clerke. Gwynneth, John. 1536 (1536) STC 12557; ESTC S103590 91,695 315

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it where so euer he can fynde it But where he can not yet yf he may spye any corner of a sentence where it may but scant seme to be sufferd yf it were put to it In with it he goth at auēture trustyng therby to wrynge all the rest to his owne fonde folysshe and euyll purpose Therfore all though thou hast seen and hard ynough to knowe that this I do not feyne yet that it myghte more largely apere lette me heare sumwhat of his owne mynde what he sayth to these foresayd authorytees hym selfe The .xxx. chap. Hereticus Syr that shall ye do / for consequently in that same .v. leefe these be his wordes 〈◊〉 these places / he sayth / you may playnly perceyue / not onely that it is none article necessary to be beleued vnder payne of damnacion / seynge the olde fathers neuer beleued it / and yet dyd eat cryst in fayth / both before they had the manna / more expressely thorough the manna And with no lesse fruyte after the manna was ceased And albeit the manna was to them as the sacrament is to vs / and they eate euen the same spirituall meate that we do / yet were they neuer so madde / a● to byleue / that the manna was chaunged into cri●tes owne naturall body but vnderstode it spiritually / that as the outwarde man dyd eate the materiall manna which conforted the body so dyd the inwarde man thorongh fayth eate the body of crist / beleuynge that as the manna came downe from heuen and conforted theyr bodies so sholde theyr sauiour crist / which was promised them of god the father / come downe from heuen and strengthe theyr soules in euerlastynge lyfe / redemynge them from theyr synne by his deth and resurreccion And likwyse do we eat crist in faith bothe before we come to the sacrament / and more expressely thorough the sacrament And with no lesse fruyte after we haue receyued the sacrament and nede no more to make it his naturall body then the manna was / but myght mych better vnderstande it spiritually / that as the outward man doth eate the naturall brede whiche comforteth the body / so doth the inward man thorough fayth eat the body of christ / beleuyng that as the brede is broken / so was cristes body brokē on the crosse for our synnes / which comforteth our soules vnto lyfe euerlastynge And as that fayth dyd saue them / without beleuynge that the manna wal altered into his body euyn so doth the fayth saue vs. All though we beleue not / that the substaūce of brede is torned into his naturall body For the same fayth shall saue vs which saued them And we are bounde to byleue no more vnder payne of damnacion / then they were bounde to byleue Now syr this is parte of his mynd Ca. Thow sayest euen trawth And therfore yf thow marke it wel sum what after his owne wordys of these places thow mayest playnely perceyue not onely by the presence of this worde / not onely / but also by the absence of this worde / but also / that he at the fyrste intended to shewe vs two thinges The tone of the whyche notede with this word not onely / he hath here as thou seest declared all redy But the tother dependynge theruppon / and ought to be noted with this word / but also He doth vtterly passe ouer clene let it go For he rōneth so wonders faste and can not tell hother / that he forgetteth tone ende of his tale whyle he telleth vs the tother or elles he doeth purposely resarue kepe it in store / tyll he speake with vs hym self to show that and more He. Tushe syr ye do but mock hym now Ca. why cuntreyman what woldest thou haue me do for to pytte hym thou knowest well it is to late To prayse hym there is vtterly no cause To holde my peace in this mater were to farre agayne conscyence And what remayneth but alwaye so to speake as he doth mynister occasyon Therfore wher he sayth that the olde fathers were neuer so madde as to byleue that the manna was chaunged into cristes owne naturall body / for what purpose doth he tell vs that when euery man knoweth it as well as he All though no good man wolde expresse it in such termes consyderyng what persons they were for that they dyd not so beleue there is no man dowteth therin whē it was neuer so sayd vnto them nor commaūded that they shold so do And a very good cause why when there was then no such thynge in dede for the blessed body of our sauyour chryste in those dayes was not As Fryth I suppose wyll not denye / but that now ī very dede it is And also sayde of his owne moste holy mouth to be in the sacrament to / wherfore herein there is no more to saye / but as it apereth playne that all those which beleue that the substaunce of the brede by the vertue of the holy consecracyon is torned into the very body of cryst Fryth doth note and acounts to be madde in so doynge That is to wyte All Englyshmen / welshmen / e●yshmen Frenshmen scotys daines ●●uch men spayniardes portyngals Italians with all other trewe crysten nacions For doutles al those doth so byleue He. Nay syr not all for all can not be sayd of englyshmen onely nor yet of dyuers other partycular nacyons besyde for some among them byleuethe other wyse Ca. And well spoken as who say there is no horse that maye be sayd all whyte bycause he is not without sum black / vnder the tayle He. Syr in good fayth that is but a scornefull example Ca. yet it is to this purpose sumwhat agreable mete ynough for thyne obieccyon Howbeit sumwhat better to contēt the withall it is sayd amysse that such such feldes be full of corne by cause they are not eche of them without some and to mych 〈◊〉 among it what yf there be such heretykes sume to many as Fryth was among englyshmen other trewe crystē nacyons besyde doth that let the trauth of this / that all those nations beleue the very substaunce of the brede thorough the holy consecracyon to be torned into the very blessed body of cryste All those multytudes thou seest he doth recken therin to be madde He doth not except all or any trew crystē prynces About whom there lacketh not men in wyt grauite lernynge of the best sort that maye be had which seme not of all men to be lyghtly deceyued wher of in this mater specyally they are vtterly moost lothe doeth the sadnesse therfore of Fryth show vs madnes in all crysten prynces / in all theyr prudent and wyse counsellars / and in all theyr multitudes of peoples innumerable vnder them or ellys doth the sadnes of all those showe vs the madnesse of hym I requyre no answere of this but consyder it well with thy selfe Therfore what is there more in all