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A17186 An holsome antidotus or counter-poysen, agaynst the pestylent heresye and secte of the Anabaptistes newly translated out of lati[n] into Englysh by Iohn Veron, Senonoys Bullinger, Heinrich, 1504-1575.; VĂ©ron, John, d. 1563. 1548 (1548) STC 4059; ESTC S104813 56,402 234

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GOD worketh 〈…〉 s bothe to be willyng and to doo or performe the thyng that he hathe moued vs to be willyng to do accordyng to his bountuous wyll He I say worketh in vs good workes as in his electes notwithstanding the workes ar attributed vnto vs and are called ours whiche neuerthelesse are Gods that glory honor may be geuē to god only Doest thou vnderstande what I say Sy. I doo vnderstand it very well Ioia Dothe it satisfie thee Sy. ye as truly Now do I perceiue that the lernyng of the Anababtistes cometh of ygnoraunce and boldnesse and that it is very pernicious and hurtfull whiche is gaye in the syght of the simple but in dede is an error malicious rudenesse 〈…〉 ut I desyre to knowe what thou wylte saye of the .v. conclusiō For they be fully persuaded that soules are a slepe The .x. treatie or dialoge How that the Soules after that thei be departed from the body do not slepe but lyue in christ Ioiada BVt with this opinion they do abolish the gospel which teacheth of the resurrection of Christ as saynt Paule in the fyrst chap. to the Romayns doth say Besyde that they doo denye the last Article of oure fayth that is to saye The lyfe euerlastyng after this lyfe Is not this therfore a pernitious Doctrine that repugneth agaynst so manifest veritie and sure beleue Sy. Thou doest not vnderstande the Anabaptistes For they doo neyther denye the Gospell nor the Resurrection of Christ They saye that the Soules after the deathe of the bodye if they dooe departe in fayth do slepe in the bosome of Abraham tyl the day of iudgement that then they do entre into euerlasting life And proue their saiynges by the gospell by Paule Luc. xvi i. Thess iiii I wyl not haue you to be ignoraunt touchyng them that are a slepe c. In the Olde Testament it is written of the Fathers that thei fal a slepe with their Fathers And also it is sayde of Stephen that he dyd slepe in the Lord. And that thei at lengthe shall receyue euerlastyng lyfe they do proue it by Paule .ii. Timoth. iiii I haue sayeth he fought a good fyght Now is there layde vp for me a croune of rightwysnesse which the Lorde who is a rightfull iudge shall geue or render vnto me vpon that day not onely to me but also to al them that loue his comynge There is suche a thyng Phil. iii. i. Iohn iii. Or what neade is it of that last iudgement if by by after his death euery man receyueth his owne dome these do seme vnto me strong Nowe wyll I fayne he are what thou canst saye agaynst it Io. I saye the same thyng that I sayde before If our soules dooe sleepe after the death of the bodye the soule of Christ sleepeth also and the resurrection is disanulled For Christ dyd proue that ther was an euerlasting lyfe by his rising agayne which can not be euerlastyng if the soule slepeth and begynneth then to lyue when iudgement dothe come Wherfore the sleepe of the Anababtistes dothe euacuate and disanull the gospell and resurrection As for the bosome of Abraham I aske the whether it be a slepyng place dormitori or a receptacle and place to receyue the lyuyng Sy A place whervnto the soules of y e faithfull Christen men ar gathered together tyll the day of iudgement Ioi Where is that place aboue or benethe Sy It is vncerteyne to me God doth know Nor it is not lawfull for vs to enquyre Sy. So ye do defend al vncertayne thynges that ye do teache And ye that do speake babble muche of the bosome of Abraham and do not know yet That comyng of Christ shall be in the last day of all Ioia What and I vnderstande that of the comyng of Christ at the ende of euery mans lyfe Sy. So thou doest say but it must be proued by the holy scriptures Io. These ar not my wordes but the wordes of him that speaketh there of his owne death For he vseth this word to go for to dye so that to go and to dye is all one thyng with him And agayne this worde to come wherfore the Anababtistes doo stryue is not taken for his last comyng but for the resurrectiō of christ and ye helpe and ayde that he sheweth vpon the faythfull christen men being in extreme nede For he came agayne after that he was rysen from death dyd declare that he had opened the kingdom of god that we might be sure that as he dyd entre in to heauen him selfe so we shuld come in or entre in also But he is entered in to immortal lyfe not in to slepe in to the kyngdome of God and not in to the bosome of Abraham and that by by after his death Therfore we shall also incontinent after our death entre in to euerlastyng lyfe and into the kingdome of God For he taketh vs away when he calleth vs from death to lyfe Iohn v. For it is added by maner of exposicion That where I am ther ye may be also Therfore are we taken in soule from death to euerlastyng lyfe in body to iudgement Or tell me dyd Christ with his death reserate open heauen whiche was locked vp afore or not Sy I do graunt that he did opē it Ioi But what neadeth this reseration or openyng if the soules doo not entre in to lyfe Where as notwithstādyng Paul doeth say I coueit to be dissolued deliuered from this body to be w t christ beleuyng that after this death he should be with Christ Peter moreouer doeth saye that for this cause the gospel was preached vnto the dead that they shuld be iudged in the flesh but lyue after or in y e spirit do not these manifest places teache proue that the soules doo lyue with God For he sayeth that y ● gospell was preached vnto the dead What is els the gospel to be preached but redemption lyfe to be preached And what were they that were dead but they which after that thei were departed were gathered in the bosome of Abraham Sy. But howe was the gospell preached vnto them Ioia The vertue of the passion of Christ and the fruit of his death which were profitable vnto them Sy. How Ioi Because that they being deliuered thorough the death of Christ ar receiued as touching their soules into euerlastyng lyfe In the last day they shall ryse bodily and as all other shall be iudged in the vniuersall iudgement In the meane season their soules do liue with God Is it proued sufficiently that the soules that wer in the bosome of Abraham are delyuered brought in to heauen Sy. I dooe not saye agaynst it Ioia And thou shalt fynde none other thing in the word of god ▪ It followeth therfore that th● Bosome of Abraham is no dormitory or slepyng place but an euerlastyng lyfe Which thyng we may proue by the .xvi. of Lu
▪ For ther it is written that Lazarus is in ioy and solace whe● as the rycheman is punyshed in hell If so be that the soule as ye doo say shulde slepe she coulde haue no ioye excepte i● were by dreames if she reioyseth or haue ioy it is impossible that she shoulde slepe Likewis● it is manifest li knowen shewed in the .viii. of Mathew that many shall come sytte in the kyngdome of God with Abraham Isaak and Iacob That in the meane season I shoulde sai nothing that slepe is clean● contrarye to the nature of the soule which is in Greke called ●ntesecheia or Endesechia that is to sai ● perpetuall and vnrequietable ●otion or workyng Sy. These ●hinges are more manifest and more strong then I thought Ioia It is the poynte of an vnwise man to say I thought not and hauyng hearde but one ●arte to geue sentence The A●ababtistes do aduaunce and ●et forth gaily and paintyngly their argumentes but they are weake and nothyng strong Sy. I woulde fayne know in what significaciō the scripture vseth this worde to slepe which is so often tymes founde in euery place of the Bible Ioia Among the auncient fathers this worde to slepe was to dye naturally or after the commen course of nature And because of the resurrectiō it was saied that thei which dyd dye sleape For as a man geueth hym selfe to sleape doubting nothing but that he shall wake agayne from his sleape so the body sleapeth that is to say dyeth doeth ly● in the graue beyng kepte there ●yl the day of the general resurrection So the Fathers dy● sleape so Stephen all othe● godly persons Seyng therfor● that to sleape is to dye and th● soules can not dye it foloweth that they canne not sleape Fo● Stephen dyd saye Lorde receiue thou my spirite which thyng when he had saied ha● cōmitted or cōmended his soul to the heauenly father his bod● sleapynge dyd dye In thy thyng they are deceyued tha● they do attribute vnto the sou● that which belongeth to the body only But in the meane seasō it is attributed to the whole mā because of the vnitie of the body and of the soule beyng knytted in one persone Which example was brought afore of Christ in whom the body died only not his godhead nor his soule Lykewyse a man slepeth but with his bodye not with his soule The Anababtistes doo not nor wyl not vnderstand this figure Sin●cdoch● nor the other figures tropes Which thyng causeth them to erre in many thynges But ignorauncye maketh them the bolder to teache what so euer they do dreame or conceyue in their sleape Sy. Yet it is euident that Paul saith that a cotoune of rightwisnes shal be rēdered vnto him at lengthe when th● Lorde cometh And also that which is written in Iohn an● in the Epistle to the Philipen● is sure and strongly grounded ▪ Ioia This ought to be obserue● Symon that the daye of th● Lorde in scriptures is not alwayes to bee taken for the las● day but somtyme for the truth and lyght as in the gospell o● Iohn otherwhyles for the vi● sitacion of the Lorde as ofte● tymes in the Prophetes and ● Cor. iii. sometyme for the end● death of euery man as Ioh● vi I wyll resussitate or rays● him agayne to euerlastyng life in the last daye that is to saye● when he dyeth For when an● man dyeth that day is last vnt● hym After thys maner dy● Paule call the last daye in th● Epistle to Timothe For he had spoken before of his death saiyng I am ready to be offered affirming that he had ben faith full and loyall in his course therfore he dyd not doubte but that the rightwise iudge shulde render vnto him the coroune of rightwysnesse which as he leaueth no vnrightwysnesse vnpunyshed so alwayes rewardeth them that lobor faithfully And this place doeth rather for vs then for the Anababtistes seing that Paule dothe hope that the coroune of rightwysnesse duyd vnto the rightwyse shal be renderyd vnto him at the tyme of his death Ergo he beleueth not that the soules do slepe but that they do lyue euerlastingly That which thou aledgest out of Iohn and Paule to the Philipenses are spoken of the last iudgement but they proue not that the soules are a sleape For that whiche they doo speake of saluation there dooe perteyne more to the resurrection of the body For these are the wordes of Paule He shall transforme that is to say Christ our vyle body that he may make it conforme and lyke to his glorious body What meane these thingꝭ elles but that our bodyes haue full hope of resurrection or risyng agayn As Iob dyd speke Iob .ix. Sy. If the soules dooe receyue by and by their iudgement as sone as they be departed what neadeth that vniuersall iudgement Ioia It perteyneth to the whole man whiche shall be repayred or made new agane with the body that shall ryse with the soule Of the which thyng it is written Chess .iiii. Mat. xxiiii .xxv. Doest thou yet desyre any thīg Sy. I had leauer heare foundations and groundes oute of the scriptures Ioia I haue brought verye many alreadye what dooest thou aske more Sy. Thou hast other helpes yet the which I pray the to bryng forth Ioia Seynge that thou arte desyrous of the truthe I wyll hyde nothyng frome the. This Doctrine and Opinion of the Sleape of the Soules dooeth not ouelye repugne agaynst the Scriptures fayth dooeth not onely disanulle the Gospell and Resurrection of Christ but is also agaynst all cōmune sense reasone a rude and vnclearkelye ignoraunce but go to let vs expounde these thyngꝭ I aske thee if the soule be a body or a spirite Sy. It is not a bodye nor any grosse substaunce but a syngle and pure spirite Ioia Can then a spirite be subiect to bodily infirmities as to be an hongered to be weryed to dye c. Sy. No for these perteyne to the bodye onely A spirite is immortall incorruptible euerlasting or perpetuall Ioiada Thou sayest very well therfore marke thyne argumēt thus Sith the soule is a spirit not a bodye it can not be subiecte to bodily passions or infirmities but is exempte frome them slepe doth chaunce to the body thorough werinesse Ergo the soule can not slepe for the soule cannot be weary Or canst thou brynge any other thynge concernyng slepe Sy. No for all operacions and senses dooe ceasse and rest and excepte the body shulde brethe folkes wold thynke that it were dead Ioia Now if our soules should slepe it shoulde folow that after this lyfe we doo feele neither good nor euyll which dothe directly pugne agaynste the Gospell Moreouer we wyl proue by the nature of the slepe that the soules can not slepe but the bodye only For now I aske the when doeth the soule slepe after that she is departed frome the body or when she is yet ioyned to the body