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A18883 Those fyue questions, which Marke Tullye Cicero, disputed in his manor of Tusculanum: written afterwardes by him, in as manye bookes, to his frende, and familiar Brutus, in the Latine tounge. And nowe, oute of the same translated, & englished, by Iohn Dolman, studente and felowe of the Inner Temple. 1561; Tusculanae disputationes. English Cicero, Marcus Tullius.; Dolman, John, of the Inner Temple. 1561 (1561) STC 5317; ESTC S107988 158,994 448

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you desyre then to agree to it But I praye you what are those greater thynges whych you mind to do Mar. To teache if I can that death is not onelye no euell but also a good thing Hea. I do not necessarily requyre so much but I greatlye desyre to heare it For albeit you bryng not to passe that whiche you minde yet you shall surely perswade me that death is no euell But I will not trouble you in your talke I had rather heare you speake alone Mar. What if I shall aske you any thinge will you not aunswere me Hea. Then I might be counted verye statelye But except you had nede I woulde rather you shoulde not also Mar. I am contented to folowe your minde therein And those thynges which you willed me to shewe as well as I can I will declare Neuerthelesse I would not you should take my wordes as the Oracles of the god Apollo Or to thinke that whatsoeuer I shall speake is sure and certayne but as the sayenges of some simple man foloweinge that whiche is probable by coniecture For farder then likelyhoode I can not go It is enough for theym to tell certayne and sure thinges which saye that such thinges may be knowen and also professe them selues to be wyse Hea. Kepe you what order you please I am ready to heare you Mar. Death it selfe which euery man semes so well to knowe we must fyrst see what it is For some thinke that it is the deparparting of the soule from the body There be other some whiche thinke there is no departure but that the bodye and soule do dye together But of them which thinke that the soule doth departe some saye that he is strayght-wayes scattered other thinke that he remayneth longe some for euer But what the soule is or where or frome whence there is great dissensiō Some thinke the hearte to be the soule of the which some men are called faynt hearted madde hearted and ioyned wyth heartes in frendshippe And the wyse Nasica who was twise Consull was called a litle heart and A stoute harted man Catus Aelius the syxt Empedocles thinketh the soule to be a certayne bloud about the heart Other some take a certayne part of the braine to be the soule Other like none of these opinions but place the soule partelye in the heart and partly in the brayne And againe the soule some men thinke to be the life as oure countreymen call it For we commonlye saye to laboure for lyfe to ende his life and to be longe lyued But to Zeno the Stoyke the soule seemes to be fier And these opinions whiche we haue recyted of the hearte brayne lyfe and fyer are commonlye reported But euerye pryuate man hath other inuentions As manye auncyente Philosophers afore tyme and of late Arist●xenus a Musicyan and a Philosopher lykewyse sayd that it was a certayne consonaunce of the bodye like as we see in certaine songes and instrumentes a certayne pleasaunt concente and agreemente euen so that in the nature and shape of the whole bodye there were diuers motions stirred as in songes soundes and noyses He lefte not his arte and yet he sayde somewhat whyche verye thynge was afore opened and declared by Plato Xenocrates denyed that the soule had anye shape or bodye sayeng that it was a thinge consysting onely of members the power of y t whiche as Pythagoras had afore time declared is of no small force in the constitucion of mans body His mayster Plato deuided the soule in to thre partes The chiefe of the which namely reason he placed in the heade as in a forte from whiche he seperated the two other partes namelye angre desyre whiche he placed in diuers roames Anger in the brest and desyre vnder those places whiche are aboute the hearte But Dicearchus in his bookes whiche he wrytes of the reasonynge of learned men kepte at Corinthe in the fyrst bringes in manye speakers in the other two he bringeth in a certayne old man of Phthios whō he calleth Pherecrates sayes that he came of Deucalion reasoninge that the soule is nothing And that it is but a vaine name neither thinketh he that there is either minde or soule in man or beast otherwise then a certayne motion by the whyche we both do and suffer spred in all liuing creatures alike Neyther wil he that it should be anye other thynge thē the body so shaped that by the force of Nature it may haue life and sense Aristotle who farre passed all the reste in wyt and diligence alwayes exceptinge Plato after he hadde treated of those foure kind of principles out of the which al thinges take their beginning thought that there was a certayne fift nature of the whiche the soule minde did consist For to thinke to foresee to learne to teache to inuente and diuers such other propertyes as to remember to loue to hate to desyre to feare to be vexed to be mery these and suche like he thought were in none of these foure kynd of causes Therfore he addeth to them the fyft kynde without anye propre name and calleth the soule mind by a newe name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whiche signifieth a certayne continuall and euerlasting motion Except perchaunce a fewe whiche I remember not these are the opinions of al the philosophers touchinge the soule For as for Democrytus a worthye man but yet compounding the soule of the chaungeable meetinge of certayne lighte round and indiuisible bodyes we will nowe ouerpasse For there is nothinge whiche a company of Butterflyes wil not lightlye make with him Of all these opinions whiche is moste true let some god iudge but whiche is moste likely to be true there is great doubte Whether wil you therfore that we trye oute the truest of them or els that we retourne to our purpose Hea. I woulde verye fayne heare both if it might be But it were very hard to confound them togither Wherfore if wythoute the searching of these opinions we may be deliuered from the feare of deathe I pray you do that whych we haue in hande if not do that nowe and this at some other time Mar. That whiche I perceiue you would rather haue done that also I thinke is more commodious For whych soeuer of those opinions be true I shall lightlye perswade you by reason that deathe is not euell but rather good For if the hearte bloude or brayne be the soule trulye because eyther of them is a bodie it shal dye with the rest of the bodye If it beaer it shall be dispersed if it be fyre it shall be quenched if it be Aristoxenus musicall concent it shalbe dissolued What shall I saye of Dicearchus who sayeth that the soule is nothing at all By all these opinions there can nothing after death pertayne to anye man For euen with our life our sense is lost and he that feeleth nothinge neede not to passe what chaunce betides him Yet the opinions of y ● other Philosophers
euer from the beginning as Arystotle thinkes y ● at the least there is some ruler gouerner of so greate a worke So likewise although thou canst not se the soule of mā no more thē thou canst god him selfe yet neuerthelesse as y u dost acknoweledge god by his workes so likewise seing the infinite remēbraunce of thinges the quickenes of inuentiō the swiftnes of motiō in the same finally all the beautie of vertue y ● must nedes confesse the diuyne heauenlye power of the same In what place is it then I thinke truly in the heade And whye I so thinke I can bryng many reasons But that we will referre to an other time And now dispute where the soule is In thee he is assuredlye What nature hathe it a nature properlye belonging to it selfe as I thinke But admit that it had the nature eyther of fyer or aer For that is nothinge to oure purpose This onely consyder that as you knowe God althoughe his place and shape you knowe not so likewyse you ought to conceyue your soule although you knowe neyther his mansion place nor forme And trulye as concernynge the soule we can not doubt vnlesse we will confesse oure selues wholye ignoraunt in naturall philosophy but that there is no motion in the same no composition no concretion no copulation nor coagmentacion Which if it be so assuredlye it can neuer be seperated departed disseuered or sundred and for that cause neyther can it die For death is the departing seperatynge and loosynge of those partes whiche before death were conioyned Wyth this reason and suche like Socrates being moued did neyther desyre anye patrone to pleade for him when the iudges gaue him dome of death neyther yet became he an humble sutor to theym for the lengthning of his lyfe But vttered alwayes a stoute stubbernes procedinge not of pryde but of a hautye courage Yea and the very last daye of his lyfe he reasoned much of this selfe same question and a fewe dayes afore when he might easely haue bene conueyed oute of pryson he would not and finallye at the time of his deathe holdinge in hys hand the cuppe that should poysō him spake in such sort that he seemed not to be compelled to dye but wyth a feruēt desyre to clyme vp to heauen For thus he thought and so he taught that ther were .ii. wayes and courses of our soules when they departe oute of oure bodyes For such as had defyled them selues with sinne and had geuen theym selues ouer to lust and pleasure wherwyth they beinge blynded had stayned the nobilitye of theyr soules wyth walowynge in vyce or otherwyse fraudulently gouerninge the commen welth such he thought wente by a path seperated from the counsell of the gods but suche as had kepte thē selues pure and holye and were leaste defyled with the fylth of they● bodyes but had alwayes called them selues frō the filthy lustes of the same and whyles they lyued in theyr bodyes ●ad ●mitated the lyfe of the gods such he thought had an easye retourne to the place frō whence they first came And for that cause he saieth that a● the swannes which not w●thout cause are dedicated to Apollo but because they seeme to haue of him the gift of naturall prophecye foreseeynge what pleasure is in deathe do dye singinge with greate delyght so ought al good and learned men to do Neyther truly could any man doubte hereof but that as ofte as we muse muche of the nature of our foule we are in such case as they are wonte to be who when they haue a long space beheld the sonne are made in maner blynde with the bryghtnes thereof And so likewyse the eyes of our minde beholdyng it selfe do often ware dimme and by that meanes we lose the diligence of contemplation of the same So the indgemente of our opinions doubtynge wauerynge staggering pōdering many doubtes is driuen as a waueryng shyppe in the mayne sea But these exāples are coūted state come frō the Grecians But Cato our countreymā so departed out of thys life as one that was glad that he had gotten iust occasion to dye For that god that ruleth wythin vs forbiddeth vs to departe hence withoute his leaue But when soeuer he shall gyue vs a iust cause as he did to Socrates now of late to Cato often heretofore to manye other then truly euery wise man wil gladly depart frō this darkenes into that light Neither yet oughte he to breake y e bandes of his prison for that the lawes of god do forbid but to depart frō thence when he is deliuered called by God as an officer or other lawfull power For all the life of wise men as he in like wise sayeth is y e practise of death For what other thing do we whē we cal our mind frō pleasure that is the body frō the cares of welth richesse which is the minister hand maid of y e body to cōclude whē we separate our selues frō all s●irre in y ● cōmen wealth and from all other businesse what do we then I saye but call oure soule to it selfe compellinge it to retourne to it selfe and to wythdrawe it selfe as muche as may be frō the coniunction of the bodye and to separate the soule from the body is nothing els then to dye Wherfore let vs practyse thys to seuer oure selues from our bodyes that is as much to saye let vs accustome oure selues to dye For that both whyles we lyue here in the earth shal be lyke to that heauenlye lyfe and also when we beinge loosed from the bandes of our bodye shal wend towardes the heauēs so much the lesse flowe shall we fynde our course thyther wardes For they whych haue alwayes liued in the fetters and gyues of theyr body yea when they are loosed go some what more slowelye as those whyche many yeares haue bene laden wyth yrons For truly this lyfe is but deathe whyche I could lament more at large if I lysted Hea. You haue done that sufficiently in your boooke whyche you entituled of comforte Which when I reade I desyre nothynge more then to leaue this body But now whiles I heare this muche more Mar. Youre tyme wyll come and that shortly whether you drawe backe from it or hastē towardes it for swyfte wynged tyme flyes a pace but so much it lackes that deathe is an euyll as you whylome thought that I feare me there is scarse any other thyng to be accompted good that may happen to man Since it shall eyther make vs gods our selues or els place vs wyth the gods Hea. Yet neuerthelesse there be some that think not so Mar. But or euer I haue finished my talke I wyll proue vnto you that there is no reasō why death ought to seeme an euell thinge Hea. Howe can it seeme an euell thinge vnto me nowe I knowe thus much Mar. How can it aske you there are great companyes of Philosophers agaynst this opinion and those trulye
not onlye Epycures whom neuerthelesse I do not despyse but I knowe not howe eche learned man sets at nought But also mine owne dearlig Dicearchus hath sharplye writen agaynst this immortality of our soules For he wrote three bookes which are called the bookes of Les●os because the same disputacion was kept at Mitylena in the which he assayes to proue that our soules are mortall And the Sto●kes do but lende vs the vsing of the lyfe of our soules for a space to make vs as longe liued as dawes For they saye that our soules shall abyde a great space but not 〈◊〉 Wil you therfore heare me proue that if it be so yet death is not to be counted an euell Hea. That do as you thinke good but no man shall remoue me from my opinion as concerning the immortalitye of our soules Mar. I cōmend you therfore howebeit I woulde not haue you to be to rashe in allowyng opinions For we are lightly moued with a wittie reason and stagger chaunge oure opinion yea thoughe the matters be somewhat play●e Yet neuertheles in these there is some darkenes But if any such thing should happen we ought to be armed with witty conclusyons Hea. Wel spoken but I doubt not but I wyll foresee that no such thing shall chaunce Mar. Is there any cause then why we should not ouerpasse our frendes the Stoikes them I meane which saie that oure soules abide for a while after that they are departed out of our bodyes but not euer Who inasmuch as they do graunt that whiche semeth to be hardest in all this matter namelye that the soule may abyde beyng frō the body ●●●ruayle muche that they will deny that which is not onely easy to be beli●ued but also that being ●raūted which they do gra●nt do●● 〈◊〉 in maner of necessity namely that whē they haue abiden a great whyle they can not dye Hea● You reprehend them worthelye for it is euen so as you say Mar. Should we then beleue Panetius who in this poynte dysseu●eth from his mayster Plato For him whom in al other pointes he calleth diuine most wyse moste holye to conclude the Homere of all philosophers his this onlye opinion of the immortalitye of the soules he doth not allowe For he sayeth that which no man denyeth that whatsoeuer hath hadde beginning shall a●●● haue endynge And that our soules had beginninge which he declares by they●● that are daylye borne 〈◊〉 whom there doth appeare as well grenenes o●●●yt as of yeares He bryngeth also this other reason that whatsoeuer maye feele gryefe may be sicke and ●●at soeuer may be sick shal dy●iour sou●●s quod ●e do feele griefe wherfore they shal also die These thinges may lightly be refu●ed For hereby it semeth that he was ignoraunt that when we talke of the eternitye of the soule we do therin compryse the minde whiche is alwayes voyde of anye troublous motion or affection and do not talke of those partes in the whych sorow anger and lustes are Which he against whom I nowe reason thinkes to be sundred and seuered frō the mind For the likelynes of nature doth more appeare in beastes which haue no reason but the outwarde gesse of the soule of man doth much consyst in the shape of his bodye For it is much materiall in what sortes of bodyes the soules be placed For there be manye thinges in the bodye that quycken the minde and manye thinges whiche dulle the same Aristotle sayes that all wittye men be of melancholie complexion by the whiche reason it greueth me not at al to acknoweledge my selfe to be blunt witted He reckens vp manie thinges to proue y e same as if it were certaine shewes the reason of it Then yf there be a great force of those thynges that are in the bodye as concerning the disposition of the mynde there is no necessitye why the workes of the soule should be alyke in euerye bodye But I let this passe I woulde to god Panetius might be here present He lyued in the time of Africanus I woulde fayne knowe of him to whome of his kinsemen Africanus brothers cosen was like who beinge fauoured muche like his father yet in his lyfe did so muche refemble euery vnthryfte that he was commonlye counted the worste that myghte be Also to whom was the nephewe of Publius Crasius a righte wyse and eloquente man like and so likewyse of dyuers other notable mens children and other theyr kynsefolkes whych I nede not here to remember But wherof do I nowe intreate haue I forgotten that this is my purpose after I had spoken sufficiently of the eternity of our soules to shew also that yf they did dye there could be no euel in death Hearer I remembred it well ynoughe but whyles you talked of the eternitye of the soule I suffered you wyth a good wyll to staye in the same Marcus I perceyue that your minde is on hygh thinges and that you wyll euen clyme into heauen Hear I hope so But admit as these men will haue it that oure soules remayne not after deathe then I perceyue that we haue loste the hope of immortall life in heauen Mar. What harme I praye you doth that opynion brynge admyt that our soule shall dye as our body is there then anye gryefe or anye sence at all in our bodye no man sayeth so albeit Epicurus layeth it to Democritus charge But his scolers denye it Then if there be no feelynge in the bodye after deathe neyther doth there remaine anye sense in the soule For it is in no place Where then is the euell But perchaunce they will saye that the departynge of the bodye from the soule is not wythoute griefe Admyt that there be some howe litle is it howebeit I thynke there is none at all For it happens commonlye wythoute anye sence yea and some times wyth pleasure yea and it is but lyghte what so euer it be For it is done in a mynute of tyme. But this it is that gryeueth vs or rather vexeth vs the departynge from all those thinges whyche we counte commodityes in oure lyfe But I feare me that they may be more trulye called euels What shoulde I here bewaile the lyfe of man although I well maye and that vppon iusts and good occasyon But what neede I inasmuche as I do intreate whether after deathe we shall be wretches to make our lyfe in bewaylynge to seeme more miserable we haue done that sufficientlye in that booke in the whiche as muche as we might we haue comforted oure selues Deathe therfore deliuereth vs from euels and not frō goodes if we speake the truthe And that truly is so largely reasoned of Egesyas the Cyreman that he was forbidden of the king Ptolomeus to teache the same in scooles for that many after his doctrine dydde wyllingly kyll thē selues There is an Epigramme of Callimachus vppon Cleombrotus the Ambrocian whome he sayes after that he had perused Platos booke of the immortalitye of the soules foorth
in suche stoutenes O ye Lacedemonians see of what force good lawes are in the orderynge of a commen wealth Is not Theodorus the Cireman a notable Philosopher worthy to be wondred at think you whom whē Lisimachus the king threatened that he would hange hym you myght haue spoken that quod he to haue feared your nyce courtyers But as for Theodorus he lytle passeth whether he rotte aboue ground or vnder By whose sayenge I am put in minde to speake somewhat at this present of buryal Which shal be nothing hard presupposyng those thinges to be true whiche we haue afore spoken of not feelinge And of this what Socrates thought it appeareth in that booke in the whiche his death is described of the whyche we haue made mention afore For after that he had reasoned of the immortality of the soule and now his death drewe on beyng demaunded of Crito howe he would be buryed he lookyng towardes them that stoode about him spake these wordes My frēdes quod he I haue spent much labour in vayne For I haue not perswaded my frende Crito that I shall departe hence and leaue nothing behinde me that is mine owne But trulye Crito yf euer thou canst come by me or euer get me burye me as thou lyste But I knowe righte well that when I am hence departed none of you all wil solowe me Wyselye spoken For he dyd both permit his friende to satisfye his minde and yet neuerthelesse shewed that he litle past of any such thing Diogenes more rechelessely yet wittely inoughe but with small ciuilitye as a doggyshe philosopher wylled them to cast his bodye abrode wythout buryal And when his frendes asked him whether he would then haue his bodye deuoured of byrdes and beastes No not so sayeth he For I pray you set a staffe nye to me that I maye dryue theym awaye And when they asked him howe he could do so inasmuche as he shoulde haue no sence after death What hurte shall I haue then quod he of the bytynge of beastes and peckynge of byrdes when I feele it not But Anaxagoras spake wisely who when he was lykelye to dye at Lampsacus and his frendes demaunded of him whether if he should chaūce to die there he would be caryed to Clazomena to his owne countrey it nedeth not quod he for frō euery place there is like distāce of way to heauen and hell Wherfore as concernyng buryall we must knowe this that it perteyneth to the bodye onlye whether the soule dye or lyue And in the bodye it is playne that after the soule is once departed there remaineth no sense But see howe full the worlde is of errour It is wrytten that Achilles drewe Hectors deade bodye at a cartes tayle I thinke he thoughte that he felte the gratynge of his limmes And therfore he bragges of it as if ther by he were reuenged But Hectors mother lamenteth it as a most cruell facte with these wordes I sawe I sawe that greued me most to see The corps of Hector throughe hye towne drawen lye ¶ What Hector I praye you or who was then Hector it was better sayde of Actius vnder the person of Achylles The Carcas colde to Pryam I dyd giue But Hectors soule aboue in heauens doth liue ¶ Thou drewest not then Hector but the bodye that once was Hectors But nowe here startes vp one oute of the ground whych will not suffer his mother to slepe in rest O mother I the call whyche slepest voyde of feare And takst no pitye on my griefe thy sonne come bury here ¶ Such pitifull verses as these when they are lamentablye rehearced in the Theater and mone all the company to sadnes is it not an easie thyng for thē that are presente to iudge theym to be wretched whych are so vnburyed they be afrayd to haue theyr limmes torne and yet they feare not to haue theym burnt And therfore one lamentes Priamus in this wyse Alas the ashes of the Kynge with bones to powder bet I sawe in heapes of gored bloud embrued and bewet ¶ I see not what occasion he hath to be sorye for any such thing This therfore we must firmely maintayne that nothinge is to be cared for after death Although some vayne men do rage agaynst theyr enemyes beynge dead And in such sorte Enni●s bryngeth in Thyestes cursynge his brother Atreus fyrst desyring that he might perishe by shipwracke That was hard surely For suche death can not be wythoute gret payne But that that foloweth is to to vayne I would that he him selfe were stuck vpon some rocke His bowels out his bloudbulcke all to broke And pyked stones on whych he thus doth lye With goared bloud in redde hue he may dye And such other like Assuredlye the stones them selues could be no more voyd of sense then his dead body hangynge vpon them to whom he wysheth thys torment Which although it were crueli if he coulde feele it yet nowe is t● none effecte because he can haue no sence thereof In lyke maner vayne is that whych● foloweth Let him haue no graue where he his corse may shroude Ne where his wearyed ghoste maye take his last abode Do you see in what errour this felowe is He thinketh that the graue is the harber and reste of the bodye Trulye there was a greate faulte in Pelops that he taughte his sonne no better howe muche he ought to esteeme buryall But what should I here recken vp the opinions of euerye seuerall man synce we may see the manifest errours of manye nations as concernynge buryall The Egiptians spyce the deade bodyes and keepe theym in theyr houses The Persians sere theyr bodyes in waxe and then spyce theym that they may abyde as longe as may be There is a custome amonges the wyse men of Chaldee not to engraue the dead bodies afore suche time as they be torne of beastes In Hircania they keepe commen dogges such as be noble mē houndes and the commen people rascall curres euerye man accordinge to his abilitie that eate them when they be deade and that do they counte the best buryall Chrisippus hath wryten manye sundry fashyons as concerning the same matter as he is a man verye diligent in the readynge of historyes But some of theym be so cruell and so muche agaynste nature that my pen abhorres to endite theym Wherfore as concerning buryall we oughte not much to force it neyther yet oure frendes to neglecte it so that alwayes we keepe this opinion that the bodyes of the deade care for nothing But what men oughte to doe for customes and good names sake that our frēdes that ouerlyue vs muste see to so that they knowe that it nothinge pertayneth to suche as are deade But then trulye death is most welcome vnto vs when our lyfe beyng well nye at the wane can comforte it selfe wyth his owne prayses For no man hathe lyued to small a whyle which whiles he lyued dyd lyue vertuouslye I my selfe haue manye iuste occasyons of death which
put vs in good hope if that delight you that our soules may after this life passe into the heuens as a place appoynted for them Hea. Truly it delyghteth me greatlye And assuredly y ● it so is I wil alwayes perswade my selfe Mar. What nede you in this case to requyre my labour am I able in eloquence to excell Plato reade diligently that booke whyche he wrote of the soule so shal you lacke nothinge concerninge the knoweledge of this questiō Hea. I haue done so truly yea and that very often But I knowe not how whiles I reade him I am fully perswaded But after I haue layd asyde the booke begin to thinke with my selfe of the immortality of our soules all my perswasion sodaynelye slips away Mar. Wel sir graunte you that the soules abyde after death or els saye you that they dye with the reste of the body Hea. I graunt that thei remaine Mar. What if they remayne Hea. I graunt they be blessed Mar. What if they dye Hea. Then they be not wretched because they be not For that being therunto costrayned by you I haue already graunted Mar. How then or for what cause do you saye that deathe is euell which eyther shal make vs happy our soules remayninge or els not wretched our sense beinge paste Hea. Shewe therfore fyrste vnlesse it be to paynefull for you that our soules remayne after this life But yf you can not proue that for it is very harde you shall shewe that there is no harme in death For I feare muche leaste it be a griefe I do not meane to lacke sense but that I must lacke sense Mar. To proue this matter which you desyre we may vse as good authoures as may be which in all causes both ought and also is wont to be of great importaunce and fyrst we may confyrme it by all antiquity which the nigher it was to the beginning of the worlde and progenye of the gods so much the better peraduenture did see those thinges whyche were true For emonges those auncyent fathers whō Ennius calleth Cascos this one thinge was comen that there is in death feling and that a man by departing of his life is not so vtterly extinguished that he should altogether peryshe And this may you gather both by many other thinges but chiefly by the lawe of the byshops and ceremonies of burials whiche they beynge most wittye men would neyther with so great care haue obserued neither yet being irreuerently or vnhonestly vsed would so sharpely haue punished except this had bene faste fixed in theyr mindes that death is no destruction vtterly marring and blemishing al thinges but onelye a certayne departure and chaunge of lyfe the whiche to worthye men women is wont to be a guyde into heauen and vicious and il disposed persons did cause to tary on the groūd and neuerthelesse to remayne stil. By this opinion also and by the iudgemēt of our countreymen Romulus in heauens with gods doth passe his time As Ennius the Poete agreeing to comen fame hath writen And frō thence flyeng to vs and so to the West Occeane Hercules is counted so great and so mightye a god For this cause Bacchus the sonne of Semele is so muche reported And in like maner famous were the .ii. sonnes of Tindareus who not onely in field were helpers of victory to the Romans but also messengers of the same Also Ino the doughter of Cadmus is she not of the Greekes by the name of Leucothea and of our countreymen by the name of Matuta worshipped What the whole heauen to thintent I make no longer discourse is it not replenished with mankinde for if I should assaye to searche auncyente monumentes and put in writing such thinges as be in olde Greeke bookes thē should you wel perceyue that such as we count to be the greatest goddes haue departed out of y e earth into those places of heauen But ignoraunt men that knewe not naturall philosophye whych of late came into vse perswaded them selues so much as they could gather by naturall reason The order and causes of thinges they knewe not They were oftē moued by visions and those chiefelye in the nighte to thinke that such as were dead did liue againe Wherfore like as we se it a very strōg argumēt to beleue that there are gods because there is no nation so cruel neyther yet anye man so beastlye in whose mind there is not fixed some opinion of God Many neuerthelesse haue conceaued diuers foolishe fancies of the gods but yet they graunte all that there is a diuine power and nature Neyther yet doth the communication or agreement of men cause this consent the opinion is cōfirmed by no decrees by no lawes but in euery thing the argement of all nations is taken for the law of nature So likewise in asmuch as all nations haue worshipped their benefactors as gods after theyr death although some more foolyshe then other it is euident that nature hath engraffed in the heartes of all men a natural opinion without perswasiō that our soules are immortall and remayne after this life But who is there that would not bewayle the death of his friend when he thinkes that he is depriued the commodities of this life Take away his fansye and you shall take awaye all mourning For no man mourneth but for his discommodity For we sorowe and are vexed and all our wofull lamentation and sad mourning ryseth hereof that him whom so entirelye we loued we suppose to lacke the commodities of this life and that to feele And these thinges we ymagine onely by the conducting of nature wythout eyther reason or learninge And hereof we wyll talke hereafter But the greatest argument by the whych we may gather that nature it selfe doth priuily thinke of the immortality of our soules is that moste wise men take greatest care for thinges to come after their death Some one sets trees whiche may profyte in an other age as Statius sayeth in his bookes entituled Synephebi to what other ende but for that he knewe that the time to come did also pertayne vnto him for the same cause diuers diligente husbandemen graffe trees whose encrease they shall neuer see And likewyse manye noble men make lawes orders and customes the obseruatiōs of the which they shall neuer beholde What the begettinge of children the spreading of fame the adoptions of children the diligent obseruinge of testamentes the very monumentes Epitaphes of graues what other thing do they signify then that we haue al a respect to y e time to come Besydes this There is no doubte but the tryall of nature oughte to be taken of the best nature But what mens nature is better thē theyrs which thinke theym selues borne to helpe saue and comfort men Hercules is departed frō hence to the gods To them he shoulde neuer haue gone vnlesse whiles he was emonges men he had prepared him selfe a way thither But these are old matters and nowe also sanctifyed by
religion What shall we thinke of so manye and so notable men in thys our comen wealth whiche willinglye toke theyr deathe for theyr countreyes sake Did they think you suppose that their memorye shoulde be extended no lenger then the terme of theyr lyfe Trulye no man at anye time was so madde as without hope of immortalitie to offer him selfe to deathe for his countrey For otherwise it had bene lawefull for Themistocles to haue lyued in ease it had bene lawefull for Epaminundas It had bene also that we enquire no farder of old and forren matters lawfull for me But I knowe not howe there sticketh in mens mindes a certayne gesse of life to come yea and that doth most commōly happen in the most stoute and harty courages and in them appeares most lightlye Whiche hope taken away who is there so mad that would continually liue in laboure and daunger and hitherto we haue spokē of princes But do we not se the like of Poetes will not they be remembred after theyr death Uppon what cause then was this writen Behold ye Citisens here the shape of Ennius image old Who hathe descriued youre fathers factes eke their gestes hath told Lo he requireth the report of fame and renowne at theyr handes whose forefathers he had caused by his writynge to be famous And the same Ennius wryteth in another place thus Let no man me bemoane nor wayle me when I dye For whye aliue my good reporte in mouthes of men shal flye But what doubte we of Poetes yea suche as liue by handcraftes desyre after death to be remembred For what other cause dydde Phydias graue hys shape in the tergat of Minerua where it was not lawefull for him to wryte What the Philosophers thēselues do they not in those bookes whych they write of the despising of glory imprint their owne names Certes if the consent of all men be the voice of nature al men in al places do agree that there is some thing that doth pertaine to thē which are departed out of this life we also must nedes thīke y e same And since we know y e they whose mind passeth either in wit or vertue because their wit is best do se most clearely the power of nature It is most likely forasmuch as euery good man taketh care for his posterity that he supposeth that there is some thing the sense and feeling of the which he shal haue after death But as we knowe by nature that there be gods But what they be we gather by wyt and reason so we thinke because of the consent and agrement of all nations that our soules do remayne after death But in what place they be or what maner thinges they are we must gather by reason The ignoraūce of the whiche hath fayned and inuented hell and such terroures as you seemed somewhat afore not without iuste cause to despyse For our bodyes being layd in the grounde and couered wyth earth whereof also suche as are buryed are sayd to be earthed they thought the reste of our life should be led vnder the ground Which opinion hath bene the cause of great errours Whyche haue bene augmented and encreased by Poetes For the thicke companye of the Theater in the which there are many women and children is muche moued hearing so terrible a verse as this I here am come from hell by wayes full hye and steepe By dennes ybuylte with stoanes by caues ful darke and deepe Where lothly darknes dwels where cralling furies creepe Yea and that errour was of such force which nowe I truste is nye extinguished that whereas they sawe mennes bodyes burne afore yet neuerthelesse they would fayne them doing such thinges in hell as withoute bodyes coulde neyther be done in deede neyther yet ymagined For they could not wel conceyue howe the soule might liue withoute the bodye and for that cause they ymagined that they liued vnder some certayne shape and figure Uppon this occasion Homere wrote his booke whiche he entituled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hereof spronge that Necromancie whiche my friende Appius was wont to use For this cause also was the lake that standeth not farre from mi house called the lake of hell Whence soules are stireed vp in darke and grisely shapes Whyche when hell gates are opened once out at the doores escapes Yet neuerthelesse these shapes and shadowes they fayne to speake Whyche can not be wythout the tounge iawes sydes and lyghtes For they conceyued very litle in theyr mindes but referred all to theyr bodelye eyes But it is a great point of wyt for a man to reuoke his minde from the iudgement of his outward senses and to withdrawe the consent of his thoughtes from thinges that haue bene alowed by custome And I beleue trulye that there haue bene manye other whiche in all ages haue reasoned of the immortalitye of the soules But of those whyche haue left any writinges behinde them Pherecides a Sirian taught firste that the soules of men were euerlasting A man surely of great antiquitye For he liued in the time of my kinsman Tullus Hostilius This opinion his scoler Pythagoras did chiefely confyrme who when he came into Italye in the raygne of Tarquinius the proude amased all great Greece with his estimation learning and authoritye Yea and manye yeares after the name of the Pythagoreans was so highely esteemed that in comparyson of them no other Philosophers seemed to be learned But let vs retourne to those aunciente Philosophers Commenly they would geue no reason of anye thinge that they spake vnlesse it were same such thing as they should declare by numbers or descriptions It is sayde that Plato to thintent that he myghte knowe the Pythagoreans came into Italye and there was acquaynted both with manye other but chyefelye wyth Archytas and Timeus of whome he learned all the opinion of Pithagoras and that at the fyrst he not onelye thought as Pythagoras did as concerninge the eternitye of the soule but also confyrmed the same wyth reason Whych vnlesse you be otherwyse minded let vs ouerpasse and leaue of all this reasonynge of the immortalytye of the soules He. What wil you now leaue me wh● you haue broughte me into so great expectacion I had rather to erre wyth Plato whom I knowe howe much you esteeme and I wonder at the more because of your prayse then to thinke wel wyth other Mar. Worthelye spoken For I my selfe assuredly would not be aggrieued to erre with him And is there anye doubte but that as he hathe handled al other thinges very learnedlie and profoundly so he hath done this also although this hathe leaste nede of cunning handeling For the Mathematicians do well proue it sayeng that the earthe whiche is placed in the middest of the world in comparison of the whole heauen hath but the proportion of a small poynt whych they call a centre And such is the nature of those four bodyes of the whyche all thinges take theyr beginning that they haue
that seeth and heareth and not those partes whiche are but the casementes of the same Without the whyche neuerthelesse the minde it selfe can perceyue nothinge vnlesse it be earnestlye bent thereon Besydes all this what a thinge is it that the minde onelye can cōtaine thinges of most diuers nature as colours tastes feelynges smels and soundes which by the .v. sēses only the mind could neuer discerne were it not that al thinges comming to it by them it onely is iudge of all And then truly these thinges shall be more playne and clearely sene whē as the soule is come to his owne naturall libertye For now in deede althoughe nature hathe verye suttely wrought certayne passages frō the soule to the body yet neuerthelesse the same are compassed and in maner stopped vp wyth certayne grosse and earthlye bodyes But when there shall be nothinge but the soule it selfe then there shal be no let but that it may wel discerne and iudge what eche maner of thinge is I could here describe if my matter so requyred howe manye and howe sundrye delectable syghtes the soule shall haue in those heauenlye regions The whych sometimes when I do remember I can not but wonder at the vanitye of certayne Philosophers whiche haue the secrete knoweledge of naturall philosophye in great admyratian and therefore thanke and prayse wyth all theyr hartes the inuenter and finder of the same and worship him as God sayeng that by this his benefyte they are deliuered of ryght heauy maysters that is to wite continuall terror and dayly and nightly feare For what so doating a foole is there that woulde feare those thinges whiche you if you had not the knoweledge of natural philosophy would haue feared The Temples low of Acheron with palenes all bespred And dennes ful depe of doleful death with darkenes al beset Is it not a shame for Philosophers to boaste that nowe they feare not these thinges but knowe theym to be false Maye not a man thinke theym quicke witted whiche woulde haue credited these thinges had not learning perswaded thē to the contrarye But they haue gotten knoweledge enoughe whyche haue perswaded thē selues that at the time of theyr death they should wholye peryshe which if we graunt to be true for I wil not at this time muche contend with them what haue they therein eyther to be glad or proude of neyther yet can I see anye cause why the opinion of Pithagoras Plato should not be true For were it so that Piato brought no reason see in what estimation I haue that man his verye authoritye should moue me But he hath confirmed his opinion wyth so manye proofes that it appeareth that both he was willing to perswade and also hath perswaded But there be many against him whyche thinke our soules cōdemned to death neyther is there any other cause why they will not beleue the eternitye ●f the same then because they can not well ymagine or thinke what maner thing the soule should be without the bodye As though they coulde vnderstande what maner thinge it is whiles it is in the bodye what shape it hathe what quantitye or what place But if it were possible that they might see all the inwarde partes enclosed in mannes bodye whyche nowe are seperate frome oure syghte whether they should see the soule or whether it is of suche subtill nature that they could by no meanes discerne it that let theym weyghe whyche denye that they can ymagine any soule wythout the bodye they must fyrst see what maner thinge they will thinke him to be whyles he is in the bodye For to me assuredly dyuers times when I ponder with my selfe the nature of the soule it seemes a farre darker and deeper consideration to thinke what and howe the soule coulde be in the bodye as in a straunge habitation then what it shall be when it shall depart from thence and flye into the open heauens as to his propre and appoynted place For if it be not possible for vs to comprehende in oure mindes such thinges as we neuer sawe then neyther god him selfe neither yet oure soule that came from God what it shalbe when it is departed from our bodyes can we well ymagine Dicearchus and Aristoxenus for that it was a deepe and a weyghty matter to consyder what the soule might be said that there was no soule at all And surelye it is the chyefest poynt of wytte wyth the soule to knowe the soule and that is the wyse meanynge of that sage precept of Apollo whyche willeth vs to knowe our selues For I can not think that it shoulde bidde vs to knowe oure lymmes stature or shape For we are not bodyes neyther when I speake to you do I talke to your body Therfore when he sayeth knowe thy selfe he sayeth as muche in effecte as knowe thy selfe For thy bodye is but the vassayle and dongeon of thy minde Whatsoeuer thy soule dothe that is thine owne deede And vnlesse it had bene thought an heauenly thing to knowe the soule that precepte had neuer bene taken to haue bene of such excellency as to haue bene imputed to God But if he know not what maner thinge his soule is howe shall he knowe that he him selfe eyther lyueth or moueth And hereuppon is grounded that reason of Plato whiche is declared by Socrates in the booke called Phedrus and rehearsed of me in my syrt booke of a comē welth That which alwayes moueth is euerlastinge But aswell that whiche moueth other thinges as also that whiche is moued by other whan it ceasseth to moue ceasseth also to liue Onelye that therefore which moues it selfe because it can neuer forsake it selfe can not but moue It also is a fountayne and beginninge of motion to other thinges whych are moued Nowe of a principle there can be no beginninge For of a principle all thinges are made and it takes his beginning of no other for it were no principle if it toke beginninge of any other thing Then if it hath no beginning neither hath it any ending For a principle being ones extynct can neyther it selfe at any time be reuyued neyther yet create or make anye other thing wheras al thinges take theyr beginning of a principle So we see that the beginning of al motions procedeth of that which is moued of it selfe But that can neyther haue beginning nor ending not though the skie should fal all thinges stande at a staye neyther yet any outward force by the which it should be moued Wherfore inasmuch it appeareth that that is euerlastyng whych moueth it selfe and no man will denye that our soules are of that sorte for whatsoeuer is moued by anye outward motiō and not of it selfe is without life it must nedes folowe that since it is the onelye propertye and nature of the soule amonges so manye sundrye thinges to be moued of it selfe it neyther at any time heretofore had begynnynge nor at anye time hereafter shall haue endinge Let all the raskall Phylosophers
manifeste daunger of death Spayne should not thē haue sene the .ii. Scipiōs s●aine both in one battayle whē they stoutely stoode in defēce of their countrey nor y e towne of Cannas Paulus Aemilius Ue●●sia Marcellus y e Latines Albinus nor the Lucanes Gracchus Is there any of these counted at this day miserable No trulye not after theyr happye lyfe For no man can be a wretche his sence beyng once paste Hearer But it is a hatefull thynge to be wythout sence Mar. A hatefull thing in dede if we did feele y e lacke of it But inasmuche as it is euident that nothynge can be in it which is not what can there be hateful in it which neither doth lacke neither feele anye thynge Howbeit we haue talked of this to ofte But I do it because that herein consisteth all the feare that we conceyue of deathe For when we see that our soules and bodies being spent and all oure partes beynge brought to fynall destruction that whyche was a lyuynge creature is nowe become nothinge we muste nedes perceiue also that betwyxt a thyng that neuer was and kyng Agamemnon there is no difference And in like sorte that Camillus dead long since doth now no more force for the ciuill warre which is kept at this present then I toke thought for the takyng of Rome at suche tyme as he lyued Why should Camillus then be sorye if he had knowen in his lyfe time that .350 yeares after him suche thynges should happē or I yf I should imagine that ten thousād yeres hence some straunge nation should race oure city Yet such is the loue that we owe to our countrey that we take thought for it for the good wil we beare it and not for any harme that we beynge buryed may haue by the destruction of it Wherefore deathe can not so feare a man which because of thincertainty of our lyfe doth continuallye hange ouer our heades also because of the shortnes of oure age can neuer be farre of but that he ought continuallye to haue more respect to the commen welth thē to his life And that he oughte also to thinke that those which shall come after him whose commodities or discommodities he shall neuer feele do in like wise pertayne vnto him therfore euen those that iudge our soule to be mortal may attempte thinges whose remembraunce shall long endure not for anye desyre of glory whyche they shal neuer feele but for the good wyll they bare to vertue whom glory of necessitie dothe folowe albeit you looke not for it But the nature of al things is such y ● as our byrth is the originall cause and beginnynge of all those thynges whyche we haue so in likewyse oure deathe is the ende of the same the payne of which as it did nothinge pertayne vnto vs afore our lyfe so neyther shal it after our death Wherfore what euel can there be in death whych pertayneth neyther to such as liue neyther yet to those that are deade For suche as are deade are not at all and suche as are alyue it can not come to Wherefore they which wil speake truly of the nature of death do terme it a sleepe as thoughe a man shoulde passe the course of his lyfe for the space of .90 yeares and then sleepe oute the reste I thynke assuredlye that a swyne woulde not cou●yte to sleepe so longe But Endim●on if we gyue anye credyte to tales a great whyle synce slepte in Latmos whyche is a hyll of Caria He is not as yet awaked as I thynke Thynke you that he careth what paynes the Moone taketh of whome the tale goeth that he was there brought a slepe to the intente that she myghte kysse hym as he slepte What care should he take that feeles not So here you haue s●epe the ymage of our deathe whyche you do daylye put vppon you and do you doubte whether there be anye feelynge in death since in the ymage and pycture of the same there is none at al Leaue of then this olde wyues tale that it is a wretched thynge to dye afore thy tyme. What tyme I beseche you the tyme that nature hathe appoyneted But she hathe lente vs oure lyfe to vsurye as it were appoyntynge no certayne daye when we shall repaye the same What cause haste thou then to complayne yf she requyre it of thee when she lyffe For thou hadst it vnder such condicion The same men thinke it a heauye case for one to dye beynge but a boye but yf he dye beynge an enfante in his cradell they thynke that then he hath no cause of complaynte Yet neuerthelesse of hym dyd nature more sooner requyre that whyche she had lent O whyles he was a boye say they he had not smatched the swetenes of lyfe But he was in lykelyhoode to attayne to greate worshippe whyche euen at the time of his deathe he beganne to come to But I meruayle muche synce that in all other thynges it is counted better to attayne to to some what then nothyng at all why then it should be otherwyse in our lyfe Howebeit Callimachus said very wel that Priamus had wept farre oftener then euer did Troylus But now they prayse muche theyr chaunce which dye in theyr age and why so Because as I thinke if they might liue lōger their life could be no pleasanter then it hath bene But assuredlye there is nothing that a man may take more pleasure of then of wysedome the whych if we graunt that it taketh away other commodityes Yet that assuredlye olde age dothe brynge But what is this longe age or what is the lōg time of a man Do we not see that age hath ouertakē them which were euen now but boyes stripelinges when they least thought of it But yet beause we can lyue no lōger we call it longe And so euery thinges lyfe according to the ende that nature hathe appoynted it maye well be termed eyther longe or shorte For about the riuer Hypanis which rūneth through a part of Europa into the sea Pontus Arystotle sayeth that there are bredde certaine beastes which liue but one day Of them then she that liueth .viii. houres is counted aged But she that liueth till the sonne set is as one euen spent wyth age and so muche more if it be the longest day in the yere Compare our age wyth immortalyry and we shall be found to liue in maner as shorte a space as those foolishe beastes Let vs then set asyde all this trifelinge for howe maye I better terme it and let vs frame our selues to a perfect lyfe despysyng all vanitie and trading our selues in vertue For nowe we are euen puffed vp wyth wanton thoughtes so that if deathe ouertake vs afore such time as we haue obtayned the promisses of the sothsayers we seeme ther by to haue bene mocked and defrauded of many notable commodityes And if at the time of our death we hang in desires and wishes lord how we are vexed and tormented
whereas that iourney o god howe pleasaunt ought it to be vnto vs whyche beinge once paste there shall be no care nor trouble lefte O howe muche Theramenes doth delyghte me what a stoute courage seemeth he to haue For albeit I weepe as ofte as I reade the storye of him yet neuerthelesse it reioyceth me to see howe stoutelye he dyed lyke a noble man Who lyenge in the pryson after he hadde there dronke vp the poyson whych the thyrtye tyrannes had sente hym wyth suche an earnest desyre as if he had thyrsted after it he caste that was lefte wyth suche a force out of the cuppe that it sounded on the floore● whyche sounde he hearynge smyled and sayde I begynne thys to Critias who was one of hys deadlyest enemyes For the Grecians in their bankets were wont to drinke to some mā namelye to him that should pledge thē So it pleased that noble man to ieste at the time of his death when he had that within him whych should be his bane And he trulye prophecied death to hym y t sent him the poison which shortly after ensued Who would commēd suche securitye in death if he thoughte death to be an euell thing Into the same pryson and the same kynd of death came a fewe yeares after Socrates condemned so vniustlye of his iudges as Theramenes of the tyrauntes Let vs heare the what maner of wordes Plato sayes he spake to the iudges when he was condemned to death I am in good hope my lordes quod he that I am happye for that I am thus put to deathe For one of these two muste needes folowe that eyther thys death wyll take awaye all sence from me or els if my soule do continue it shall depart into an other place of rest Wherefore yf my sense shall be ertyncte and my death resemble sleepe whyche often wythout anye trouble of dreames doth brynge a man most quiete reste O Lorde what pleasure shal deathe be to me or what daye should I preferre afore such a nyght the whych wythout varyaunce or chaunge shall kepe a continuall estate and staye for euer And so who shuld be more happy then I But if those thynges be true whiche are wryten namely that death is a departure into those regiōs which all they inhabite that are departed out of this life then do I accoumpte my chaūce farre better for that after that I haue escaped the handes of you whiche syt here in place and name of iudges I shall then come to them whiche are the true iudges Minos Rhadamā thus Aecus and Triptolemus shall there haue the companye and communication of them whych haue liued vpryghtly in the faythe and feare of god This oughte to seeme a sweete pilgrymage But to talke wyth those worthy men Orpheus Museus Homere Hesiodus or suche other learned sages lord howe much I do esteeme Assuredlye if it mighte be I would often dye inespecially if I thought I should find those thinges which I nowe speake of What pleasure shall it be to me when I shall commen wyth Palamedes or Aiar which were of vnrightuous iudges wrongfully put to death I should there see the wyt of the chyefe prynce which led the power of Grece to Troy walles and in lykewyse the wysedome of Ulisses and Sisyph●s neyther yet should I for the searche of such thinges as I here am so there also wrongfully be put to death And ye O iust iudges whyche haue heretofore quitted me feare ye not deathe For no harme can happen to a good man neyther in thys lyfe nor after For the gods aboue wil not ceasse alwaies to haue him and his in theyr protection For this selfe same death comes not to me by chaunce but by the iust iudgement and appoyntmēt of god And for that cause I am not angrye wyth my accusers but onelye for that they thoughte that thereby they dyd hurte me whereas I do esteme nothinge more then it But nowe it is tyme quod he that I departe hence to dye and you to liue Of the whych two which is the better the immortal gods knowe no mortall man as I thinke Now truly I had farre rather to haue so stoute a stomake and well disposed minde then all theyr worship welth that gaue sentence of his life death Albeit that whyche he sayeth that no man but onely the gods knowe yet he him selfe doth knowe that is to wit which is better of lyfe or death For he had vttered it in his former wordes But he kepeth his olde wonte euen to the death whyche was to affyrme no certayntye of any thinge But let vs stand stiffely herein that nothinge can be euell whyche nature hath prouided for all men and therwithall consider that if death be an euell it is a contynuall and euerlasting euell For it seemeth that deathe is the ende of euerye wretched and carefull lyfe Nowe if death it selfe be myserable what ende can there be of miserye But what do I here rehearce Socrates and Theramenes men of notable constantye and wysedome synce a certayne Lacedemonian a man of no reporte or fame dyd so muche despyse death that when he beynge condemned and ledde to his death dyd smyle and laughe And one of his accusers seeinge it sayde vnto him doest then mocke and despyse the lawes of Lycurgus No quod he but I geue him ryght hartye thankes that he appoincted me such a fine as I may paye wythout anye chaunge or lone of money A man assuredlye worthye of the name of the ryghte famous countreye of Sparta whose stoute courage doth well declare as me seemeth that he was vnryghtfullye put to death Suche men had our ci●ye more then anye man maye noumber But what should I here recken vp our captaynes or nobles of our citie that haue so done since Cato wrytes that whole armies of men haue merelye gone into those places from whence they thought they should neuer retourne So were the Lacedemonians slayne at Thermopilas amonges the whyche on Symonydes tombe these Uerses were wrytten Thou stranger that hereby dost passe saye here thou sawest vs lye Whiles we defende oure countrey lawes or els desyre to dye ¶ What sayeth the stoute Capitayne Leonidas go to be you of ●●oute courage o●ye lacedemonians quod he for thys nyghte perhaps we shall sup with God This was a stout nation as long as they had Licurgus lawes in reputaciō For on a time whē a Persyan one of theyr enemies boastyng of his emp●rours power sayd to one of them that the company of theyr dartes arowes shoulde darcken the sonne so that they should not see it why then quod the other we shall fyghte in the shade I haue hytherto talked of men But what thinke you of a woman of Lacedemon Who when she vnderstoode that her sonne was slayne in the field I bore him quod she to that ende that he should be suche a one as shoulde not styeke to die in the defence of his countrey God continue you
blessed They rehearse Erictheus whose doughters suffered voluntarye death to saue the life of theyr citesins And Codrus who willingly entred in the mids of his ennemies in the armor of a commen souldiour to thintēt that he mighte not be knowen to be kynge Because there was an oracle geuen that if the king were flayne thē should the Athenienses haue the victory Neither do thei ouerpasse Menecheus who hauing the like oracle giuen bestowed his bloud for his countrey Iphigenia also was willinge to be slayne at Aulide that by her bloud her countreymē might more easely sheade the the bloud of theyr ennemies Then they come nigher They remember Harmodius and Aristogiton Leonidas also the Lacedemonian Epaminūdas the Theban They knowe not our countreymen whom it would aske great tyme to recken there be so manye to whom we knowe that glorious death was alwaye welcome Which inasmuche as it is so I must nedes wishe that either men would hereafter desyre deathe or at the least wise ceasse to feare it For if at the last daye of our lyfe our soules dye not but onely chaunge their place what ought we more to wyshe But if death do vtterlye destroye vs what can be better then in the rage of great stormes swetely to slumber and after that a man hath nodded oute of this lyfe to sleepe euerlastingly Which if it be so then oughte we rather to allowe the wordes of Ennius thē Solan for Ennius sayde Let no man me bemoane ne moyst● my graue with teares But the other Let not my death want teares al ye my frendes do wepe And ye that erst aliue me loued with teares my funeral kepe But we if so be it happen that by the commaundemente of god we must depart out of this life let vs do it merely thanking him for it And let vs thinke that thereby we are loosed from prison and eased of the irons with the whych we were clogged either to depart into perpetuall mansion house appoynted for vs or els to be voyde of the sense of all griefe And afore such time that we shall be called of god let vs thinke that day which is so terrible to other to be a blessed and a happye daye to vs. Because it is appointed either of the gods immortall or els of nature the firste framer and maker of all thynges For we were not firste made by happe or chaunce but by a certayne heauenlye power whych will prouide for vs and not create anye of vs to the ende that when we had passed the miserye of this lyfe we should fall into the euerlasting darkenes of death But let vs rather thinke that deathe is a safe hauen and baye for vs to the whyche I praye god we maye come wyth spedye wynde and say●e But althoughe for a while we may be kept of by a contrary tempeste yet neuerthelesse we must needes come to it at length And can that whyche must needes come to all men be misery to any one Thus you haue nowe my conclusion so that you can not iustly complayne of any thing Hea. You say well and truly this conclusion hath strengthned me more thē I was before Mar. I am glad of it But nowe let vs see somewhat to our owne ease And this nexte daye and so long as we shall abide in thys my manor we will talke of those thinges chiefely whiche pertayne to the ease of griefe of the minde feare and desire which is the most profite of al philosophy ☞ Thus endeth the firste booke THE SECOND BOOKE treating of the second question whyche Marke Tullye Cicero disputed in his manor of Tusculanum concerninge payne and forment howe farre it is the dutye of a wyse man to suffer the same NEoptolemus in Ennius sayeth y ● he must of necessitye practise philosophy But yet neuerthelesse but in fewe thinges for vniuersally it likes him not And I truly O Brutus must nedes vse philosophy for wherein may I better employe my time of leasure But I can not limite it to a fewe thinges onlye as he doth For it is very harde that a man should be any thing skilfull in philosophy wythout the knoweledge of moste thinges or all For a man cā not chose a fewe thinges but out of a great nūber and it is not possible that he which hath gotten a litle knoweledge should not with earnest desire study to knowe the rest But neuerthelesse in a busye lyfe and as Neoptolemus then was much troubled with warre both a litle is profitable and turnes to muche vse But yet not suche as may be gathered of all Philosophye and yet suche neuerthelesse as we maye thereby be eased of desire care and feare As bi that disputacion which we kept last in oure manor of Tusculanum we seeme to haue wrought a great despyte of death whiche is of no litle force to ease oure mind of feare For who soeuer feareth that whyche by no meanes maye be auoyded he surely can not by any possibilitye enioye the fruyctes of a quyete life But who soeuer not onely because he must needes dye but also because there is nothing in death to be feared doth not passe on death he assuredlye hath gotten him selfe a strong staye for a quyet lyfe Although I am not ignoraunt that many will speake agaynste it whose vayne reproche I could by no meanes anoyde vnlesse I should write nothing at al. For if in myne oracions in the whiche I somewhat esteeme the fauour of the people for that rethoryke is an arte appliable to the cōmen voyce of the people the verye ende and perfection of eloquence is the prayse and commendacion of the hearers If then I saye there were some whiche would like nothinge in my oracions in the wittes they them selues were not likely to passet and would extend their commendacion in other mens workes no further then they thought their owne whyche mighte well attayne the same and for that cause when any other mā passed them in weyght of sentence and eloquence of wordes woulde saye that they lyked rather a thinne and base then so plentifull a stile of the whyche sorte also they were that were called Attici who boasted the profession of that whyche no man els knewe who nowe are almost laughed out of al courtes If then in the allowynge of mine orations the people were of seuerall mindes what maner of hearer thinke you shall I in this grauer matter haue of the same For philosophy sekes not the iudgement or prayse of manye but of purpose flyes the preace of the commē people of whom it is alwayes eyther feared or hated So that if eyther any man lyst to disprayse it wholye he may do it wyth the good will of the people or els if he will chiefely dyscommend that whych we nowe treate of he maye haue sufficiente ayde out of the bookes of other philosophers But we haue aunswered all the foes of philosophye in oure booke entituled Hortensius and whatsoeuer was to be spoken
hand Not Grecians prudent force nor Barbares crueltye Nor yet the cruell folke whyche dwell at thend of land Whych passyng I full ofte nere tried such miserye But nowe a womans hand my martiall corps shall slaye O sonne in this one thinge thy wretched father please Let not my cruell deathe thy mothers loue alaye But brynge me her whose bane would make me feele some ease ¶ Nowe shall I proue whom best thou louest of vs twayne Go to my sonne bewayle thy poysoned fathers case Rue on me whose vile death whole nations wil complayne O that I like a wench to teares should wrest my face ¶ Whom no man erste hathe seene to syghe at any sore So nowe my weakened force shall dye afore his date Come nere my sonne beholde thy fathers gryefe therfore Whose inwards fret●ing force of poison nowe doth grate ¶ Behold all men thou which heauē and earth didst make Cast downe on me thy boltes whyche other men do feare For nowe the whirlynge panges of gryefe my body shake And nowe the poison smartes O handes that conquerours were ¶ O heart O brest and eke you lothsome lasy handes Did erst your force constrayne a Lyon lose his life Or Lerna put to death yseared wyth fyre brands Dyd ye from Centaure once his wretched life berieue ¶ Did ye destroye the beast that Erimanthia spoyled Or els from hel dryue out the threfold hellyshe hound Were ye those handes that erste the waker dragon fayled That kept the golden fruyte there lyenge on the ground Did ye erst do these thinges or gyue so great assayes Or did your valyaunte deedes deserue a worthy prayse ¶ Can we despyse gryefe since Hercules was so impacient of it Nowe let vs heare Aeschilus not a Poete onlye but a Pythagorean also Howe doth he make Prometheus lamentynge the gryefe whych he suffereth for the theft committed in Lemnos For the fyer which we haue it is sayde that he stole from Iupiter And for that cause doth there endure tormente whiche he recountinge wyth him selfe tyed to the mounte Caucasus speaketh in thys wyse You rare of Titans stocke partakers of my bl●ud Descended once from heauens behold me here ybounde And ryed vnto the rockes ▪ as shippe in mayne sea floud The warye shipmen vse with ropes to tye on grounde ¶ The sonne of Saturne Iupiter dyd cause me here to lye When he did ioyne his hande to Uulcanes heauy wrath Who in these lasting gyues my bodye loe did tye And crusht my limmes in twoo so in this balefull bath Wyth yrons all to perced I miser here do lye And when the thyrd day comes the bitterst that may be An Egle then full ●ell with talentes hookt I see Which stoupes frō hie to plumme her greedy fyll on me ¶ But when she being filled hath tane away her flight In aers hye she lickes hir goared bluddye beake And when my liuer is renewed in eche nyght Then loe she comes agayne her fyll thereof to eate ¶ So I continuallye mine onelye woe mayntayne Whiche doth me styll tormente wyth wofull miserye For as you here see bound with Io●es moste mighty chayne I can not feare the foule awaye from me to flye ¶ So age hathe come on me whiles I this payne abide Desyrynge bitter death the same to fynyshe once But Iones most cruel dome hath death to me denyed And so this cruell plague shal stil sticke in my bones Til that ●he sonne my fleshe vpon this hill rost shall Whyche that most fylthye foule from hye doth oft let fall ¶ Assuredlye I thinke we can not but count a man in his case wretched and if he be wretched thē is griefe an euel Hea. As yet you haue pleaded my part But thereof we wil talke hereafter But in the meane time I maruayle much what you meane by vsynge verses so muche in your talke Mar. I will tell you the cause and it is well asked of you since you see that I am nowe at leasure I thinke when you were in Athenes you haue bene often ere nowe in the scooles of the philosophers Hea. Yea truly and that very gladly Mar●us Did you not then marke that they did much vse to bryng in verses in theyr talke Hea. In deede I remember that Dionisius the Stoyke brought in very many Mar. You say trouth But he did it withoute anye choyce or eloquence But Philo both kept the number of his verse and vsed choyse therin and placed them also conueniently Wherfore since the time that I fyrste fell in loue with this declamation of mine olde age I doe gladly brynge in my talke the verses of our poetes And if they chaunce to be imperfecte in any poynct I haue translated the same out of the Greeke because I woulde not that our tongue should want any kind of ornament that the Greekes had But do you see the discommoditie that Poetes cause Fyrst they bring in stout men lamenting which weakeneth the readers courage Then they be so pleasaunt that men do not onlye read thē but also learne them wythout booke So when to litle learninge and to a wanton and effeminate life poetes are once adioyned they vtterly slake all the prickes of vertue And for that cause they are worthelye banished of Plato out of that cicie whiche he framed as the most perfect forme of a well framed and gouerned common welth Yet neuerthelesse we beinge learned so to do of the Grecians do both reade theym euen from oure youthe vpwardes and also learne theym withoute booke thinkinge their learninge to be both good honest But what shoulde we blame Poetes since there haue ben philos●phers who ought to haue bene the maysters of all vertue which haue thoughte sorowe gryefe to haue bene the greatest euell and whereas you being but a yonge man and euen nowe of the selfe same opinion with thys onely demaund whether it were greater then shame did foorthwyth relente and forsake your vaine opinion Now● aske Epicurus the same question and he will say that small griefe is a greater euell then the greatest shame that maye be For he wyll saye that shame is no euell vnlesse gryefe do folowe I meruayle then that there dothe no gryefe folowe Epicurus when he sayeth that gryefe is the greatest euell whyche is the moste shamefull thinge that any Philosopher myght haue spoken Wherfore you did well aunswere when you sayde that shame seemed to you a greater euell then gryefe And if you will persiste in that opinion you shall lyghtly perceyue howe much we ought to auoyde griefe For we must not so muche searche whether gryefe it selfe be an euell yea or no as howe we oughte to strengthen oure myndes to beare the same The Stoykes occupye them selues in certayne light reasons to shewe the cause whye it oughte not to be called an euell As if the controuersie were of the worde and not of the matter Whye doest thou deceyue me Zeno For when thou denyest that gryefe and formente whyche seeme
to me horrible thinges are any payne at al I am strayght delyghted therewyth and become desirous to knowe howe y ● whiche I esteeme the greatest miserye can be counted no euel at all There is nothing euel sayeth he but y ● which is dishoneste or vicious Nowe y ● tryflest For that which greued me moste thou leauest vntouched I knowe that paine and gryefe is no sinne Ceasse therfore to tell me of that Teache me whether it be any thing materiall to sorowe or not sorowe Nothing at al thou sayest as cōcerning a blessed life which consisteth in onelye vertue But yet neuerthelesse it is not to be vsed but left and why so Because it is sharpe agaynste nature payneful to suffer heauye and hard Here is plenty of wordes in dede and yet neuerthelesse all this in effecte is no more but euell And by thys varietee of wordes thou doste descrybe and defyne vnto me what gryefe is and not howe I shoulde rid my selfe of it Thou callest it sharpe repugnaunt to nature scarce able to be borne neyther dost thou lye therein But thou shouldest not haue vsed suche copye in wordes and faynted in matter As to saye that nothinge can be good that is not honest nor nothinge ill that is not dishonest that is to wyshe a thinge as it shoulde be and not to teache it as it is But that was said much better and truer that all thinges whiche nature doth abhorre are euell and contrarye wyse suche thinges as it coueytes are good This foundation beinge placed and all contention about wordes set a parte yet neuerthelesse that selfe same thynge whyche the Stoikes so muche esteeme whych we call honesty right and comelines and whiche we sometimes compryse vnder the name of vertue shall so muche passe all other that the goodes of the bodye and fortune may well seeme ryght small in comparison of it Wherfore if as you graunted at the beginninge shame is worse then payne then trulye is payne nothinge at all For when thou shalte thinke it a shame for one that woulde be counted a man to groane crye lament and bewaile thē shalt thou haue afore thine eyes the beautye of stoutenes honesty According to the which as longe as thou shalte rule thy selfe thou shalt vndoubtedlye perceyue that gryefe wil yelde giue place to vertue For where so euer vertue is there is no feare of gryefe For fyrst as for pru-without the whiche a man can not so much as vnderstand any other vertue Will she suffer the to do anie thyng or attayne to any profyte withoute laboure or trauayle Will temperaunce suffer the to do anye thinge wythoute moderation And iustyce what man can obserue that for feare of payne would dysclose secretes that were told him betraye his frendes or ouerpasse many other dutyes of a iust man But inespeciallye what wilt thou answere to fortitude and her mates stoutnes of stomacke grauity patience and despysyng of al worldly thinges what wilt thou lie like a miser complaining lamentablye to thintente to heare some other call the a stoute man Nowe assuredlye one in that case no man would esteeme to be a man Wherfore either we must despise mālye courage or els bury griefe What know you not this that although you loose one iuell yet the residue of your substaunce may be safe But if you lose one vertue but vertue can not be lost or if you confesse that you lacke one you must nedes lacke all Maye we thē call Philocteta afore mentioned a stoute man or a man of great courage or a pacient or a graue man For I had rather to haue your indgement therein then mine owne But he trulye can be no stoute man who li●th in a warme bed and yet With cries complaintes and sighes doth cause the aer resound I do not denye payne to be a gryefe for then what nede should we haue of fortitude But I saye that it ought to be ouercome wyth pacience and sufferaunce if there be any such thing But if there be none such then whye do we in vayne commende Philosophye or what meane we so muche to bragge of the workes of the same Doth gryefe pricke the Let it vexe thee on goddes name or els if thou be naked let it euē 〈◊〉 ●hy throte But if thou haue thy harnesse framed in Uulcanes forge that is a stoute courage withstand it For fortitude the preseruer of worshyppe vnlesse thou so doe wyll leaue and forsake thee The lawes of the Cretenses whyche eyther Iupiter him selfe made or elles Minos at the commaundement of Iupiter as the Poetes saye and so lykewyse the lawes of Licurgus do commaund that youth should be broughte vp in labour huntynge running hunger thirste colde and heate And the boyes of Sparta at the aultars are so laded with stripes that ofte times a greate deale of bloude gusheth oute of theyr bodyes yea and sometimes as it was tolde me whē I was in that countrey euen to the death Yet of them all not one did at any time not onelye not crye but neyther so muche as groane Why thē may childrē suffer so much mē nothing or shall custome so much preuayle and reason nothinge There is a difference betwixt labour griefe yet neuerthelesse they are verye nyghe in nature But they differ somewhat For labour is the exercise of the minde or bodye in some busye worke or trauayle But gryefe is a sharpe motion in the bodye contrary to the senses These both y e Grecians whose tongue is more plentifull then oures do confound vnder one name Therfore painfull men they name desyrous and louers of gryefe But we much more aptelye call theym paynefull For it is one thing to labour and an other to be gryeued O Greece sometimes yet barren of wordes with the whiche thou thinkest thy selfe chiefelye to flowe I saye there is great diuersitye betwyxt gryefe and laboure It was a gryefe to Caius Marius whē the vaynes in his thigh were cut But it was a laboure for him when in a whote day he marched afore his armie Yet neuerthelesse there is some affinitye betwixte these For the vse and custome of labour causeth griefe to be more easy to be borne And for that cause they whiche fyrste gaue lawes to the commen wealth of Greece commaunded inespecially that yonge man should be acquaynted with trauayle whiche the Lacedemonians applied in likewise to their women Who whereas in other cities they sit shaded wythin the walles of their houses clothed in nice apparell liued there nothing after that sort For they more desired to wrestle to bathe them selues in the riuer Eurotas to abide the heat of the sonne duste trauayle and warfare then to syt ydle and beare childrē And among these paynefull exercyses griefe must sometimes be entermedled For they are some times beaten striken and cast downe But custome it selfe doth euen harden them from feeling the gryefe But nowe as for warfare I talke not of the Spartans who vse to
in complayning his blyndenes But Homere faynīg Poliphemus to haue bene a rude and a huge gyant maketh him talking wyth a ramme commending his good chaūce for that he could see to go where he woulde and touche what he listed And trulye that talke was well applyed to such a person For he was no wiser then the ramme wyth whom he talked But in deafenes what euell is there Marcus Crassus was somewhat deafe But there was one thing worse than that belonging to him Namelye that he had an euell reporte Although that trulye in my opinion was wythout cause Our Epicures can not vnderstande nor speake Greeke Neyther the Greeke Epicures latine They therefore were deafe in these mens language And likewise these men in theyrs And all men in those languages whiche they vnderstand not are no better thā deafe But some man will say They can not heare the sweete noyse of any instrument No more can they the gratinge or iarring of a sawe when he is whe●ted neyther the squeakynge of a pigge when he is sticked neyther when they are disposed to take theyr rest the roaringe of the mayne sea And if they 〈◊〉 so greatly delyghted wyth songes and instrumentes they oughte to consider that afore anye suche thinges were inuented there were manye wyse men that ledde a happye lyfe And also that there may be farre greater pleasure taken in readinge then hearings suche toyes Furthermore as we did afore commende vnto blynde men the pleasures of the eares so we maye vnto deafe men commende the pleasures of the eyes And furthermore who soeuer can commen secretelye with his owne conscience he shall not neede the talke of another Nowe let all these miseries be put together So that some mā lacke both his syght and hearinge and furthermore be payned wyth extreame gryefe in his body whych both of themselues are able at the first to kil a man or els if they tary any thinge longe do pricke a man more vehementlye then that he should haue occasion to abide thē yet what neede we to trouble oure selues Inasmuch as there is alwayes a hauen baye readye for vs. Death I meane the euerlastinge home of oure body when it is once past sence Theodorus whē Lisimacus threatned him that he would put him to death sayde Surely youre power is great if you be able to do asmuche as a Cantarides Paulus whē Perses desired him that he might not be led in his triumph answered That is in your choyce Of death we spake much the first day whē we disputed purposely of it sumwhat also the next day whē we entreated of gryefe we sayd thereof which who soeuer doth remember there is no doubt but he wil either wishe for death or at the least wise not feare it I thinke that herein we ought to kepe that custome which the Grecians vse in their feastes for they haue such a terme Eyther let him drink or els depart And but right For eyther let him wyth other kepe feloweship in drinkinge or els least he being sober should be in the companye of dronkardes he must departe before So likewise the iniuries of fortune which we cā not abide we ought to auoyde by flight The same that Epicurus sayeth Hieronimus also affirmeth almost with the selfe same wordes Therfore if these philosophers which think vertue of it selfe to be of no force that al that which we cal honest and laudable is but a vaine thing only coloured with a fayre name if these men neuerthelesse thinke that a wyse man is alwayes happy what thē should we looke for of Socrates Plato other more excellēt philosophers Of y t whiche some saye that the goodes of the minde are of such excellencie that they blemishe all the goodes of the bodye of fortune And some other count these to be no goods at al but place al things in y ● minde only Whose controuersie Carneades was wonte to finishe like an honourable iudge For he said that there was no cause of controuersie betwixt thē although those things which the peripatetike● did cal goods y t Stoikes did count but cōmodities so y ● the Peripatetikes did attribute no more to ryches good health and other suche like then the Stoikes when it comes to the pdndering of the thinge it selfe and not of the word And as for the philosophers of other sectes howe they can haue any place in this opinion let them selues see Yet I am glad that they professe some thinge worthye the name of philosophers of the ablenes of a wise man to liue well But inasmuch as in the morninge we must go from hēce let vs nowe penne out these our fyue dayes disputations I trust that I shall at the laste haue some leasure to set theym abrode For wherein may I better employe this litle leasure that I haue And to my frende Brutus we will sende these fiue bookes by whom I was not onely moued but also prouoked to wryte of philosophy Wherein howe much we shal profyte other men I can not well say But for mine owne sharpest sorowes and sondry troubles that on all sides compassed me I could finde no better remedye FINIS ¶ Faultes escaped in printing In the fyrst booke fol.   page line 3 2 7 for vnto read till 8 2 2 for Hea. reade Mar. 9 1 8 for also reade aske 10 1 23 for members read numbers 12 2 20 for maye read any 13 2 8 for where read are 14 2 4 for his read this 14 1 23 for foolishe read foolishely 15 2 16 for hearty read hauty 18 2 1 for which read when 20 2 8 for exhaltacions read exha●● 21 1 1 for as read and lations 22 2 8 for bound reade boared 24 2 9 for selfe reade soule 29 2 12 for Nectari read Nectar 31 2 17 for nowe read newe 32 2 17 for motion read mixtion ●6 2 8 for Aecus read Aeacus In the second booke fol.   pa. li. 2 2 12 for wits read which ● 2 16 for which reade wittes   2 22 for Peripatician and Academians read Peripate●●kes and academikes In the third booke fol. pa. li.   5 2 22 for as read are 8 12 9 for excutue read execute 11 1 7 for we reade no 12 1 11 for bed read beard 20 2 14 for goodnes read goodes 34 2 1 for delayed read deluded 37 1 9 for countenaunce read continuaunce 39 1 6 for beare read minister 39 1 20 for confirme read conforme 40 2 11 for mourne read mourning In the fourth booke fol. pa. li.   2 2 1 for lined read lyued 4 2 1 for cunning read liuing 10 1 10 for feare read ioye 10 1 23 for sonoe read soone 17 1 21 for for read or 28 2 19 for valiunt read valiaunt ❧ In the fift booke fol. pa. li.   8 2 16 for so read also 12 2 7 for line read li●e 27 2 3 for thitherto read hitherto Wordes left out ❧ In the first booke 16. leafe first page 11. line betwixt for and what bring in for 19. fol. 2. pa. 13. li. betwixt but and he bring in he thought 23. foli 1. pa. 4. line betwixte feare and for bring in What terroure I pray you or what feare 43. fol. 1. pa. 19. line betwixt such and as bringe in that In the second booke 4. fol. 2. pa. 2. li. betwixt me and inasmuch bring in for 4. fol. 2. pa. 22. li. betwixt custome and Peripatetikes bring in of the In the third booke 6. fol. 1. pa. 26. li. betwixt is and written bring in not .16 fol. 2. pa. 24. line betwixt in and thinkinge bringe in two poyntes the one in withdrawyng our minde from the. 27. fol. 2. pa. 12. li. betwixt kinde that bringe in is 35. fol. 1. pa. 16. lin betwixt that is bryng in it In the fourth booke 11. fol. 2. page .17 li betwixt minde to bring in they defyne 13. fol. 2. page 22. line betwixt comparison maye bring in of diseases of the body 34. fo 1. pa. 1. line betwixt that therabout bringe in there is anye loue of whoredome And. In the fyft booke 18. fol. 2 page 6. line betwixte voyde and feare bryng in of ¶ Imprinted at Londō in Fletestrete nere to S. Dunstons church by Thomas Marshe