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death_n	body_n	father_n	soul_n	6,087	5	4.9755	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A18933	The conuerted Iew or Certaine dialogues betweene Micheas a learned Iew and others, touching diuers points of religion, controuerted betweene the Catholicks and Protestants. Written by M. Iohn Clare a Catholicke priest, of the Society of Iesus. Dedicated to the two Vniuersities of Oxford and Cambridge ...	Clare, John, 1577-1628.; Anderton, Lawrence, attributed name.; Anderton, Roger, d. 1640?, attributed name.	1630 (1630)	STC 5351; ESTC S122560	323,604	470

this next place we will come to the signe of the Crosse which we make vpon our foreheads which is so much disliked by the Protestants When a Catholicke signeth hymselfe with the signe of the Crosse be but only implicitly des●●eth that by this signe which ex 〈…〉 citly and by mediation of words he desireth by prayers For seeing the signe of the Crosse doth figure out to the eye our Sauiours Passion and seing the secret desires of the hart are manifested and made knowne as well by signes of the bodye as dumbe Men and such as cannot speake are accustomed to make as by prayers and words of the tongue Therefore if it be lawfull for me with the tongue to pray that God will forgiue my sinns through the Meritts of Christ his death and Passion It must needs then consequently be lawfull for me to pray to hym to the same end without words by making the signe of the Crosse Seing the making of this signe with an intention of internall Prayer the Crosse being the badge and remembrance of our Sauiours death and Passion is all one as to pray in words by vertue and force of the same death and Passion Since the hand in this case by making the signe of the Crosse doth supply the place and office of the rongue The lawfulnes of this signe may be taken and proued from the signs of the Old Testament So the Bloud of the Lambe sprinckled vpon the posts of Howses did signify nothing els but the signe of the Crosse vpō the foreheads of Christians by the authority of S. Austin In lyke sort the signe Tau which was commanded to be drawne vpon the foreheads of those who lamented was a manifest signe of the signe of the Crosse on the foreheads of Christians by the iudgments both of S. Cyprian and S Ierome The making of the signe of the Crosse was euer practized and iustified by the Fathers of the primatiue Church of which point see Dionisius Cyprian Cyrill Athanasius who saith Sign●cru●●s omnia magica compescentur by the signe of the Crosse all Magick is suppressed Basil Ambrose Ierome Austin besydes diuers others of the Greeke and Latin Church The words of S. Austin I will heare set downe Thus then he wryteth Quid est quod omnes ●●uerunt signum Christi nisi crux Christi quod signum in si adhibeatur siue frontibus credentium c. What other thing is the signe of Christ which allmen know then the Crosse of Christ Which signe of the Crosse except it be made vpon the forehead of the faythfull beleiuers vpon the water by the which they are regenerated vpon the oyle with which Crisme they are anoynted vpon the Sacrifice with which they are nurished not any of these former mysteries are duly performed Thus S. Austin Ad hearto that God hath vouchsafed to worke diuers Miracles by the signe of the Crosse as appeareth by the frequent testimonyes of the Fathers to wit of Tertullian Epiphanius Nazianzene Nysse●e Athanasius Ierome Austin and others All which authorityes to contemne in this point were most insolently to traduce so many learned and auncient Fathers and consequently the whole Church of God in those pure and primatiue tymes as superstitious blynd and ignorant Now that the testimonyes of the former auncient Fathers though their owne words for breuity be not at large set downe both touching the worship giuen by them to the Crosse I euer meane such religious and inferiour worship as is giuen to things consecrated to religious ends farre different from that giuen to God and touching diuers Miracles wrought by the said signe are most clear● euident and vnanswerable appeareth from the acknowledgments of learned Protestants in this behalfe And thus concordantly hereto D●nae●s that learned Protestant thus wryteth Cyrill and sundry other Fathers were plainly superstitious and blynded with this enchantment of the Cros●es adoration The Centuris●● thus wryte of S. Ambrose A●brosius multa comme●crat superstitios● de cruce 〈…〉 nta Ambrose relateth many superstitious things of the Crosse which was found In like sort the said Protestants thus taxe Ephrem 〈…〉 is signationi nimium viditur tribuere Ephrem is thought to ascrybe too much to the signe of the Crosse And yet Ephrem liued within little more then three hundre● yeres after Christ The said Cent●rists speaking of the age of Tertullian who liued not much more then two hundred yeres after Christ thus confesse Crucis Imaginem seu in locis publicorum congress●um s●u domi priuatim Christianos habuiss● indicare vide 〈…〉 Tertullianus Tertullian seemeth to show that the Christians ai● cause the signe of the Cross● to be made in places of publicke meetings as also priuatly in their houses D. Fulke speaking of Paulinu● thus wryteth By the report of Paulinus the Crosse was by the Bishop of Ierusalem brought forth at Easter to be worshipped of the People The sayd Doctour thus wryteth of Cy●ili and Ruffinus saying Ruffinus and Cyrill had a superstitious estimation of the signe of the Crosse Now touching more particularly the miracles wrought in the Fathers iudgments by the signe of the Crosse we find these confession following And first we find Osiander speaking of Iulian thus to wryte Iulianus metu perculsus illico ex consuetudine Christianismi frontem cruce signat ●ibi Damones subito disparent Iulian being stroken with feare according to the custome of Christians did presently signe hymselfe with the signe of the Crosse and therevpon the Deuills did vanish away M. Burges an English Protestant with exception only to the worshipping of the Crosse thus wryteth of the Fathers in this poynt There is nothing ascrybed to the Crosse in or out of Baptism● by the rankest Papists but the Fathers are as deeply engaged in the same so as if we will vse it as the Fathers did c. we take the Soule to be fenced by crossing of the body and the Crosse to haue vertue of consecrating the Sacrament dryuing away Deuills Witchcraft c. To be short Doctour Couel speaking of those auncient tymes of the primatiue Fathers thus tr●ly and ●ngenuo●sly confesseth No man can deny but that God after the death of his Sonne manifested his power to the amazement of the world in this contemptible signe as being the instrument of many Miracles And thus far touching the Fathers iudgments of the worship due to the Crosse and the Miracles which God hath vouchsafed to worke by it as his instrument an 〈◊〉 all this confessed by the learned Protestants And with this I end putting the Reader in mind that when a Crosse is made in Paper wood or stone c. It is made to put the behoulder in remembrance of our Sauiours ' Passion and death And therefore that Man who calumniateth thereat sheweth greate ouerture that he cannot willingly endure to

and Piety your former assertion in ascribing the Protest an t faith to all that Country cannot be iustifyed For though I grant it is on most sides obsest as I may say with Protestancy yet it is certaine that diuers principall parts thereof are not Protestant but Catholicke in Religion As halfe of Switzerland a part of the Grisons Voltolyne the whole Country of Bauaria the Territories of all the Bishops Electours the kingdome of Bohemia besides many Imperiall Citties and states Againe as other parts thereof do ioyntly and particulerly disclaime from the Roman Religion so though they all do challenge to themselues the name of Protestants yet do they manteine many irreconcileable differences of Religion enen of the greatest importance like seuerall wayes and Tracts meeting in one common place and then instantly deuided one from another This appeareth as I am enformed most cleare and euident from the authority of Hospinian a learned German Protestant who hath diligently set downe the names of many scores of Bookes written in great acerbity of style by one Ger●ā Protestant against another German Protestant according nereto it is that we finde so many kindes of Sectaries and Hereticks in Germany as the Caluinists the Lutherans the Anabaptists the Antitrinitarians and some others though they all be linked and tyed together in the common and maine knot of Protestancy And thus farre M. Doctour of this point where you see I haue smale reason to embrace the Protestant Religion before the Catholicke because that is professed throughout Germany as you pretend this cheifly restrained to Italy Spayne and France But let vs returne backe to the generall subject of this your disoutation with my Lord Cardinall I would intreat you M. Doctour to alleadge some stronger arguments for the change off yeh in the Church of Rome then hitherto you haue giuen which if you do not then what by reason of the weakenes of your said arguments at least in my apprehension and what in respect that I do not see the proofes Produced by my Lord Cardinal to be sufficiently by you refuted I must tell you aforehand I will embrace the Catholicke Roman Religion disauow all Protestancy CARD BLLARM M. Doctour if you can support this your position of Romes change with other more forcing reasons I would intreate you now to insist further in them You see I am prepared to giue my best answere to what you can object If you do not I must presume all your forces are already spent they indeed being but weake resēbling that of S. Iude Cloudes without water carryed about with windes MICHEAS I pray you M. Doctour forbeare not to grant to this my desire since otherwise I must rest assured that no more can be sayd on your part touching this subject CARD BELLARM. Yeild M. Doctour to this Learned Iewes importunity you know he hath vndertaken a journey of many hundred miles to this Citty onely to be resolued in this one Point therefore both in charity and for the preseruing of your owne honour and reputation you stand obliged to giue all satisfaction vnto him D. WHITAKERS Tush you are both ouer vpbrayding with me and seeing I intend no further dispute with men of so irre●ragable dispositions I first for a close say to you Micheas that where you intend to become a Papist your change is this that you leaue that which was ouce good though now bad to embrace that which is euer bad I meane you leaue Iudaisme to entertaine Papisme and thus you become a new Proselyte or rather Neophyte in the schoole of Superstition Idolatry Now as for you Cardinall whose name is so celebrious and so much aduanced in the eares and mouthes a fall men know you that touching the subiect of this our discourse I doubt not but that my arguments reasons and Instances aboue alleadged do in the iudgment of such as the Lord hath illuminated with the truth of the Ghosple sufficiently prooue the great changes made of Fayth and Religion in the Church of Rome since it first receaued it Faith in the Apostles daies And if the truth hereof be hid from any I may then say with the Apostle It is hid from them that perish and are lost Therefore my irreuocable conclusion is this that the Church of Rome was once the true Church and in fayth pure and incontaminate as before I acknowledged but at this present it is The Whore of Babilon a branch cut from the true Vine adenne of theeues the large way leading to destruction the kingdome of Hell the Body of Antichrist a heape or masse of errours a great Mother of whoring the Church of the wicked out of the which it behoucth euery christian to depart and which Christ in the end will miserably destroy inflict due punishments for all it impieties and with this as vnwilling to haue further entercourse or dispute with any that subiect themselues to this prophane Church I end and bid you both farewell CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour I much greiue to see you thus transported with passion and to inueigh with such acerbity of words against Christs intemerate spouse but I the more easily pardon you since it is hard vpon the sodame to cast of a habit which hath beene often engrained in diuers tinctures of many operations so spleenfull a ●●slike you haue against the Church of Rome and indeede it seemes you labour with the disease of those whose spitle being enuenomed make them to thinke that euery thing they take in their mouths doth taste of venome But since it is your minde to breake off so sodainely with vs I recommend you to the tuition of him who in an instant is able to turne the most stony hart into Cor docile and Cor emolitum and my prayers shal be that before the time of your death you may haue the grace to implant your selfe as a branch of that Church the profession of whose faith may be auaileable to the sauing of your soule MICHEAS I am beholden vnto you M. Doctour for your Paines and labour taken in this disputation howbeit I must confesse I did expect to haue heard more said for the proofe of the Church of Rome her change in Religion then as yet is deliuered where I see that your faire promised mountaines in the beginning do but turne to snow and after resolue into water and that by your finall appealing to the written word alone you endeauour to set the best face vpon your ouerthrow in this your dispute bearing your selfe herein like to souldiers who are forced to yeild vp their hould and yet couet to depart with such ceremonies as are not competent to such as yeild Neuerthelesse I commend you to the protection of the God of Israell and will pray that you may after this life enioy the blessings which are already granted to Abraham Isa●ck Iacob and their Seede D. VVHITAKERS Well well Once more I bid you both farewell MICHEAS My

the old Testament and absolutly to abandon and disclayme from the New And therefore let vs returne backe to Michaeas and the Doctour to acquaint them with this our finall resolution OCHINVS Michaeas and M. Doctour My selfe and Neuserus haue in the secretts of our soules passed our impartiall censures vpon this our Conference And we both acknowledge the full weight of Michaeas his resons in disprouall of your instances of our owne former euading answeres And our Conclusion is that we both assure our selfs that the Protestāt Church had neuer any visible existence for these many last seuerall ages at the least And in deed I confesse when I do consider how Christ by his power wisdome and goodnes had established and founded his Church washed it with his bloud and enriched it with his spirit and discerning how the same is funditus auersa vtterly ouerthrowne I cannot but wonder and being desirous to know the cause I find there haue bene Popes who haue preuayled in vtter extirpation and ouerthrow of Christ his Church Here you haue my ceusure accompanyed with the true Reason thereof NEVSERVS I do fully conspyre in iudgment with Ochinus mooued thereto through the strenght and validity of Michaeas his Arguments And yet I hope this is no blemish eyther to you M. Doctour who haue most learnedly handled this poynt nor to our selfs but only to the weaknes of our cause for there are some vntruths so palpable and iniustifiable and among them rang the supposed visibility of our owne Church that neyther learning Art or the bestfiled words which commonly 〈◊〉 the eare of credulity are able to set a good gayne vpon them Therefore Michaeas to be snort in beleiung that the Protestant Church for many centuryes hath bene wholy inuisible Ochinus and my selfe are wholy yours MICHAEAS I much reioyce thereat and I hope notwithstanding both your former acerbity of speeches that now vpon your second and more serious renew of this point the acknowledgment of this one Truth wil be a good disposition for your further encertaynment of the Catholicke fayth since a dislike of the Protestant Church implyeth in itselfe a fauorable respect to the Catholicke Church which Church hath euer bene houored with a perpetuall visibility OCHINVS Stay Michaeas Not so You are ouer hasty your praē is as yet not gotten and your credulous expectation ouerrunne your iudgment Know you therefore first that touching your Church at the stear●e whereof that Romish Antichrist doth sit we hould it not as aboue we protested to be the Church of God And then it mat●reth nothing with vs whether your sayd Antichristian Church haue euer since it first being bene visible or no For though we teach that the true Church must euer be visible yet we teach not conuertibly that what Church hath euer bene visible the same is the true Church Furthermore Michaeas and M. Doctour take both you notize that the confessed want of a continuall visibility and of the administration of the word and Sacraments ministreth to vs a great suspicion whether the Church of Christ be that Church of God which is so much celebrated by the Prophets of the Old Testament and consequently whether Christ be the true Messias of the World For if he had so been doubtlesly he would not so quickly haue repudiated his intemerate and chast spouse for so the true Church of God is after his departure from hence NEVSERVS What Ochinus●ath ●ath deliuered though perhapps with amazement to you both I do here iustify And as it is euident that the former Prophecyes haue not been actually performed in Christ his Church So we must needs rest doubtfull at the least through want of the performance of the sayd Predictions whether Christ be that Redeemer of the World which was promised to the Fathers of the old Law And whether he had true authority to erect this Church of which he hath made himselfe Head ●or certainly the auncient Predictions deliuered in a propheticall spirit touching the Messias and his Church are infallibly to be performed in the Messias his Church MICHAEAS How now my Maysters Is this the fruit of my refelling your Churches Visibility Tends your approbation of my former discours to this Whether ayme these strange and fearefull speeches of yours Will you disclayme from Christ as your Redeemer because the Prophecyes of the old Testament touching the expansion latitude and continuall visibility of the Church of God are not performed in the Protestant Church And will you not confesse the sayd predictions to be fulfilled at all because they are not fulfilled by that way and meanes as your selfs would haue them Take heed do not obliterate and deface those fayre impressions charactered in your soules at your Baptisme neyther now di●auo●● your then taken first now O mercifull God how ignorant are you in these matters And then more miserably ignorant it that partly through learning you are become ignorant Do you thinke to honour the Father by d●shonoring the Sonne euen that Sonne in whome the Father tooke such ineffable contentment Hic est filius meus dilectus in quo mihi complacui Certayne it is that if you perseuer in iudgment as your words import you deny him for your Sauiour who had a Father without a Mother a Mother without a Father The first argued his Diuinity the second his immaculate and pure Natiuity Quod de Deo profectum est 〈…〉 eus est Dei Filius Vnus Ambo You deny him whose body was framed of such an admirable and delicate constitution and temperature as that the earth did then contrary to it accustomed manner euen power it influence vpon Heauens To be shor● you deny him who gaue himselfe 〈◊〉 Redemption for all who tasted death for all who tooke away the sinnes of the World and finally who was Sauiour of the world and reconciliation for our sinnes In the tyme of whose Passion death did euen ●eui●e and Eclips did enlighten Lux in tenebris lucet tenebrae eum non comprehenderunt But why labour I to celebrate his byrth who is from all eternity or to performe his exequies who cannot dye Mors illi vltrà non dominabitur And by you assured that who contemne Christ the Redeemer of all flesh must needs contemne God the Authour of all flesh And where you call the Pope that Romish Antichrist see how malice seeleth vp the eye of your iudgement you mantayne is seems that the true Christ and Messias is not yet come How can the Pope then by your doctrine be Antichrist since Antichrist you know is to come after not before the true Christ Againe for prouffe that the Pope is Antichrist you no doubt will make show to rest vpon the wrested authority of the New Testament And shall not then the said New Testament be of the like authority with you to proue that Christ is the true Messias OCHINVS Tush Michaeas This is but