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A14057 A new dialogue vvherin is conteyned the examinatio[n] of the messe and of that kynde of priesthode, whych is ordeined to saye messe: and to offer vp for remyssyon of synne, the body and bloud of Christe agayne. Turner, William, d. 1568. 1548 (1548) STC 24363; ESTC S108032 34,102 104

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whē he ●ot only speaketh with but also toucheth ●he king of heauē●ye must not therfore 〈◊〉 rashly dispise the hallowed vestimē●es other suche lyke outward semely ●eremonies which serue for a good or●●r knouulege I perceyue well when ●●s ye can not answerere to the reso●es whyche I haue made vnto youre ●llowe ye would drawe me craftelye ●●te of the matter in to an other newe matter But leaste I shoulde seme to be vnable to answere vnto youre resones I saye the vestymentes for all the Bysshoppes bablynge are no holyer then Tom● Tynkers taberd is and the name of God is abused whē it is called vpon to sanctify thynges that God neuer cōmaunded to be sanctifyed or hallowed Christes naturall body is not now honoured with outward garmentes and he wyl not be honoured otherwise then he hath commaunded for he hath gyuen no cōmaundemunte so to be honoured And as for hys godhede because it is a spyrite i● muste be spyrytually worshypped in sprite and in truth and not in outward vestimētes Yf ye wyll worshyp Christes bodye as ye oughte to doo gyue good newe clothes vnto the naked or to the poore that haue nede of clothes and then doo ye honour Christe as ye shoulde do But to returne vnto oure purpose agayne I axe of you whether a lay man when he taketh hys rygtes at Easter in loue and charite wyth a christiā faith celebrateth the hole supper or no Philargy I graunt that h● celebrateth the hose supper knouulege but the same celebrateth not the hol●nesse and the supper of the Lorde are not all one Porphiry As a naked man now wythin this houre clothed dyffereth not in substāce from hym selfe because he is clothed so the messe dyffereth not from the supper of the Lorde because it hath decent apparell nowe semely for such a mystery whyche perchāce it had not in the primatiue church or elles there is no difference at al betwene the Messe and the supper of our Lorde for there is in the messe before the consecration breade and wyne and after the cōsecration the body bloud of Christ and these are in the supper of our Lorde and also in the messe therfore the messe and the Supper of oure Lorde are al one knouulege Ye say because there is breade and wyne in the messe before the consecration and the body and bloude of Christ after the cōsecration and these ar both in the sup●er and also in the messe therfore that the supper of the Lorde and the messe are all one Fyrst ye doo suppose to be true which is playn false that is wher soeuer breaed and wyne is the bodye and bloude of Christe is that there is Christes supper At the maryage in the Cane of Galile was breade and wyne and the body and bloud of Christ more truly then they are now in your messe yet was not Christes supper there In the Supper also of the Corynthyans which they eate before the Lordes supper was breade and wyne and yf it be true that the sacramētaries hold that Christes body is in euery place there was Christes body and bloude but for all that that supper was not Christes supper because it was not done in the remembraunce of Christes deathe but onely to fyll the belly and not to fede the soule Porphiry thys is not a lyke case for neyther in the Cane of Galile neyther in the Corynthyans Supper was the wordes of consecration sayd and therfore was there no supper of oure Lorde knowelege Then yf the wo●des of consecration had bene sayd in the Corynthyans supper thoughe the Corynthyans hadde not intended to haue remembred Chrystes deathe theyr former supper shoulde haue bene christes supper and now by your resō when and where soeuer a preiste sayth the wordes of consecratyon as ye call them ouer breade and wyne there is Chrystes supper as thoughe in these it thynges alone to haue breade wyne and certayne wordes sayd ouer the same shoulde consyste Christes supper whyche opynion I wyll take in hande to proue false by the autorite of goddes word Luke in the .xxii. chap. describing the Lordes supper al such thinges as belōge vnto it in these wordes do this in the remēbraūce of me teacheth vs plaīly the one of the chefe pointes that belōgeth vnto the lordes supper is to call to remēbraūce the passiō of christ And paul in the .xi. chap. of the former epistle to the corīthiās writeth of christes supꝑ thus Take ye eat ye this is my body which is brokē for you do this in the remēbraūce of me After the same maner also he toke the cuppe when supper was done and sayd thys cup is the new testament in my bloude do thys as oft as ye shall drinke it in the remēbraunce of me for as oft as ye shal eat of thys bread and drynke of thys cup ye shall declare the death of the lord vntyl he come These are the wordes of saynt Paule and the vndoubted scripture wherevpon I gather that it belongeth as muche to Christes supper to receyue the breade and wyne in the remēbraūce of Christ and to declare and shew hys death as it belongethe to reherse these wordes thys is my bodye yea and more to for sainte Paule sayeth as oft as ye shall eate thys breade and drynke thys cup ye shall declare and set furth the death of the Lord vntyll he come He sayeth not as oft as ye shal eate thys breade and drynke thys cup ye shall say these wordes ouer the breade and wyne this is my bodye and thys is my bloude Then doth not onely breade and wym and the wordes of consecration sayde by a prest make the supper of the lord excepte the remembraunce of Christes death the presēce of Christes church be annexed also therunto Then doo I gather this argument the messe is not done in the remembraunce of Christe as oft as it is done therfore the messe is not the supper of the lord Furthermore that the messe and the supper of the Lorde dyffer no more one from an other then a naked man and a clothed man do thys argumente shall sufficiently declare Whose operationes and endes doo differ and are dyuerse they are also dyuerse thynges and dyffer and can not be all one But the operatiōs and endes of Christes supper and the messe are dyuerse and dyffer one from an other therfore the supper of Christ and the messe do dyffer and are diuerse thinges and can not be al one The operation and ende of the Messe are these to purchasse remission of syn by offerynge vp of Christe agayne to make fayre wether and rayne to heale sycke horses meseld swyne the french pox to bryng soules to rest that are in tormente and payne to delyuer soules out of hel The messe is sayd and done in the remembraunce and honoure of men Thys is also an operation at the messe to purge synnes and to take thē awaye and to brynge the kyngdome of
vnconsecrated wyne in the chalyce and vnconsecrated breade liynge vpon the chalice Now haue I proued by the very wordes of the messe that the ende of the messe is to purchase remission by offeryng of breade wyne to deserue euerlastynge lyfe by receyuynge and offeryng of Christes body to make fayre wether rayne to heale all sycknesses to bringe soules frō hel and to delyuer them from tormentes to honour sayntes and to make a memoriall of sayntes deathes and natiuites of the receyuyng of Christes body and bloud and otherwhyles to make the same of the offerynge of breade and wyne These are the operations intentes and endes of the messe and the same are not the endes and operations of the supper of the Lorde for the ende of christis supper is to remēber christes death to gyue thākes for our redēptiō and to remēbre that we all are mēbres of one body and ought therfore one to loue an other Therfor the endes of the messe the operations of the same and the ende and intent of Christes supper are diuerse and differ much one frō another whereupon it foloweth that the messe and Chrystes supper doo dyffer and ar not al one Then can ye not say that the messe was ordeyned of God in the xxvi of Mathew and that the messe is the supper of the lorde decked semely appoynted with decēt apparell for such a mistery Palemon Yf ye haue no other places of scrypture to proue hat the messe was ordeyned of god thē ye haue hyther to brought furthe she muste be dryuē out of Christes church as a mere inuētiō of mā Therfor yf ye haue any mo places bryng them furth Philargy The messe is good all goodnes is of god as S. Iames sayeth euery good gyft and euery perfect gyft is from aboue descendynge from the father of lyght ergo the messe is of god Moreouer Christ sayeth in the .xiiii. of Iohn That cōforter which is the holy ghost whom the father shal send in my name he shall teach you all thinges what soeuer I shall speake vnto you Loo here Christe promyseth that the holy Ghost shal teach the Apostles and the church all thynges that he shall speake after hys Ascension Then dyd Christe doubtles tell the Churche many thynges after hys Ascensyon whyche the holy Ghoste taught a greate whyle after and emonge those thynges that were onely taught after the ascention was the messe Also Iohn xvi Chap Christe sayeth I haue many thynges to say vnto you whych ye cā not beare now but when he shall come whych is the spirite of truthe he shall lede you into all truth Beholde here how that Christe dyfferred to shew the Apostles certayne verites tyll that he was ascēded vp into heauen They was there some truthes tolde to the churche after that Christe was ascended which was not tolde of Christe before hys ascencion of and thē is no mentiō made in the .iiii. Euangelistes And surely as I haue sayde the messe is one of them whyche was not iaught before the ascention but aftet it as our mother the holy churche beleueth whose doctrine I wyll rather folowe then all the Lutherans in Germany though therwer CCCCC tymes as many mo then now are Magis enim credendū est Marie veracique iudeorum turbae fallaci Saye not nowe but that ye haue now scripture alleged you to proue that the messe is of God Knouuleg Ye make a reasō and brynge furthe scripture to proue that the Messe is of God But howe strong your reason is and how rightly ye haue alleged the scrypture I shall shortly declare Where as ye reasō the messe is good al goodnes is of God ergo the messe is of God ye commyt a fallacy or a deceytful dryft of sophistry whych is called of the Logiciās which hate such sophisticall deceytes Petitio principii that is when a mā wyl proue a thynge to be true by the same thinge or wyth an other that is as doubtfull as that is which is called into questiō The chefe matter that we go aboute in thys accusation is too proue that the messe is vngodly full of blasphemy and therfore ought to be put out of the church And yet ye very wyttely allege thys for a prynciple and out of al controuersy that the messe is good and cōclude that therfore it is of God No no syr ye cā not bleare my eyes so Proue ye fyrst that the messe is good and then shal I graunt you your conclusiō that it is of God To the place whych ye allege out of the .xiiii. of Iohn wherwith ye would proue that Christ taught the Apostles the church certayn doctrine that he taught not before his ascentiō wherof ye saye that the messe is one I answere that ye allege the scrypture false for it is not in the text as yon allege it he shall teache you what soeuer I shall saye vnto you but what soeuer I haue said vnto you I take to witnes both Erasmus translation the Greke text which is thus Ekinosymas didaxi panta kai ypomnesi ymas panta osa eipon ymin that is to say he shall teache you all thynges put you in remembraūce of al thynges whatsoeuer I haue sayd vnto you And here may all mē se how crafte ye and vnfaythfully ye cite the scrypture allegynge one tence for an other and leauynge out the pryncipall part of the sentence As touchynge the place whiche ye allege oute of the .xvi. of Iohn in these wordes I haue many hinges to say vnto you but ye cā not beare thē now But whē he shall come which is the spriet of truth he shal lede you into all truth I answer that ye cā not proue by this place that the holy gost taught the church any doctrine which the Apostles Euangelistes haue not left behinde thē en theyr wrytinges Yf ye say that they could not abide diuers thinges before Christes ascentiō I say that they could abyde the same after hys ascentiō Yf ye would apply in this sētēce this word you only vnto the church after the apostles tyme not to the apostles ye do the apostles playn wrōg for Christ sayd these wordes vnto thē Thē what can ye gather of this place Christ promised the apostles that the holy ghost should lead thē into all truth dyd he so or no yf he performed his promise the knew the apostles all truth no parte of the truth was vnknowē vnto thē The apostles also was eyther vnfaithfull disobediēt seruaūtes vnto christ or thei were faithfull obedient Yf they were faithful obediēt thei kept thes his cōmādemētes Speake that in the lyghte whyche I spake in darkenes and speake ye that openly that ye haue hearde pryuely But Christe taught by the holy ghost the Apostles all truthe then were they eyther disobedient seruauntes or elles they taughte in theyr wryttynges all truth Yf they taught al truth in theyr wryttinges yet