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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A12592	A godly treatise containing and deciding certaine questions, mooued of late in London and other places, touching the ministerie, sacraments, and Church Whereunto one proposition more is added. After the ende of this booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against: and a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. Penries last treatise. Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie.	Some, Robert, 1542-1609.; Penry, John, 1559-1593. Defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie, and the communicating with them.	1588 (1588)	STC 22909; ESTC S117654	118,250	200

haue beene greatly disquieted and the good course of religion hath beene greatly hindered The cause of this sore is intollerable pride and grosse ignorance in these bad companions and want of care in the Magistrates If any shall aske mee what the true causes are why so many vnfitte men are the Churches Ministers I answere either great want of iudgement or great corruption in such which doe ordeine and preferre them The sinne of these men is very great for they dishonour Almightie God and do grosly abuse the people of the land This disease will bee healed when the Churches maintenance is not disposed of by them which haue the golden dropsie but is freely giuen to worthie and painefull students which will neither fish with the siluer hooke nor open the Church doore with a siluer key 9. THE GODLY ARE not polluted which receiue the Sacrament at the handes of an vnpreaching Minister THE Sacramentes are Gods ordinance the Ministers ignorance cannot peruert the nature of Gods ordinance A Sacrament can neuer be without promise of saluation therefore the worthy partaker of the Sacrament receiues a blessing if a blessing then no pollution That he receiues a blessing the Apostle teacheth vs We are buried with Christ saith S. Paul by baptisme into his death c. Rom. 6. verse 4. The cuppe of blessing which we blesse is it not the communion of the blood of Christ The bread which wee breake is it not the communion of the body of Christ 1. Cor. 11. verse 16. The parents of Christ went to Ierusalem euery yere at the feast of the Passeouer Luk. 2. vers 41. their going to Ierusalem was to testifie their religion to be partakers of the sacrifices There were at that time in Salomons Temple manifold corruptions the high Priesthood was solde for money many of the Iewish Priests were ignorant yet Ioseph the virgine Mary were not polluted Calu. Luc. 2. vers 41. The godly which receiue the holy Supper of an vnpreaching Minister are not partakers of the Ministers vnworthinesse but of the holy Sacrament which is a pillar of our faith therefore the vnworthinesse of the Minister doth not defile the Communicāt Alterius siue Pastoris siue priuati indignitate non laeditur pia conscientia c. Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 19. that is A godly conscience is not hurt by the vnworthinesse of an other either Pastor or priuate man neither are the mysteries lesse pure and healthfull to a holy man because they are then handled of such as be impure Ille qui accipit si homo bonus ab homine malo si fidelis à perfido si pius ab impio perniciosumerit danti non accipienti Illud quippe sanctum malè vtentem iudicat bene accipientem sanctificat Aug. contra Cresc gram lib. 2. cap. 28. that is he which receiueth if a good of an euill man if a faithfull of a faithlesse man if a godly of a wicked man it will be hurtful to the giuer not to the receiuer for that holy thing he meaneth the sacrament doth iudge him which vseth it ill but doeth sanctifie him which receiueth it well Circumcision was one of the Lords Sacraments in the Iewish Church The Iewes which were circumcised of impure priestes and Apostates receiued no hurt therefore no pollution Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 15. Sect. 16. The Sacraments neither are nor can be the worse for the ignorance or vnworthinesse or better for the learning or worthinesse of any man whatsoeuer Whosoeuer thinketh otherwise is a Donatist Touching this point of the Sacrament I rest wholy in Augustines iudgement his wordes are these Ego dieo meliùs per bonū ministrū quàm per malū dispensari sacramenta diuina verùm hoc propter ipsum ministrum melius est vteis rebus quas ministrat vita moribus congruat non propter illum qui etiam si incurrerit in ministrum malum dispensantem veritatem securitatem accipit à domino suo monente ac dicente Quae dicunt facite quae autem faciunt nolite facere dicunt enim non faciunt Addo etiam ad hoc esse melius vt ille cui ministratur ministri boni probitatem ac sanctitatem diligendo faciliùs imitetur Sed non ideo veriora sanctiora sunt quae ministrantur quia per meliorem ministrantur Illa namque per seipsa vera sancta sunt propter Deum verum sanctum cuius sunt ideo fieri potest vt accedens ad societatem populi Dei alium inueniat à quo facilè baptizetur alium eligat quem salubriter imitetur Certus est enim sanctum esse Sacramentum Christi etiamsi per minùs sanctum vel non sanctum hominem ministratum est se autem eiusdem ipsius sacramenti sanctitate puniri si indignè acceperit si malè vsus fuerit si ei non conuenienter congruè vixerit August contra Cresc Gram. lib. 4. cap. 20. The summe of Augustines wordes is that the Sacrament is administred better by a good then by a bad Minister yet that the Sacraments of themselues are true and holy c. by what minister so euer they be deliuered c. If any shall aske mee whether it be lawful to omit the partaking of the holy Sacrament in such Churches ouer which ignorant ministers are set and to present our selues and our infants to the holy Sacrament in other Churches my answere is that I referre them to the Magistrate and Gouernours of our Churches c. Obiection By whome a thing ought not to be deliuered by another it ought not to bee receiued but ignorant ministers ought not to deliuer the Sacraments therefore c. Answere The Maior is false My reason is An euill man ought not to deliuer the worde of God but wee ought to receiue it An euill man ought not to giue almes but a poore man may receiue it An absurde minister ought not to deliuer the Sacrament but they are not polluted which receiue it Obiection They of whose ministerie there is a Nullitie before God although they haue an outwarde calling ought not to bee accompted ministers therefore not to bee communicated with I. Penry pag. 43 44. Answere I denie your Antecedent My reasons are First there was a Nullitie before God of Caiphas Priesthoode for hee entred by money and the Priesthood was deuided betweene him and Annas against the Lords order Calu. Luc. 3. yet Caiphas is called the high Priest by the Euangelists Mat. 26. Ioh. 18. Secondly there was a Nullitie before God of the ministerie of some in Philippos which preached Christ of contention and to adde more affliction to Pauls bandes Philip. Chap. 1. verse 15 16. But these are accompted ministers by the Apostle vers 15 18. If any shall deny that there was a Nullitie before God of their ministerie I prooue it thus They had not an inward calling M. Penry saith that an inward calling is contained in the

possunt perfecte euangelizare multò difficilioris rarioris est operis Ideo doctor gentium plurimis excellentior Euangelizare missus est non baptizare quoniam hoc per multos fieri poterat illud per paucos inter quos eminebat August contra lit Petil. Don. lib. 3. cap. 56. I haue not set downe this as either sword or shield for ignorant Ministers My iudgement is that none ought to enter into or continue in the holy Ministerie vnlesse they haue giftes in some measure The Plough man may returne to his share the Artificer to his shop Other to their seuerall trades Almightie God will not be offended if they doe thus Yea his Maiestie wil be highly pleased Zach. 13. Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 6. Melius de media via recurrere quàm semper currere malè It is not safe to continue in a wicked course R. Some A Sacrament can neuer be without promise of saluation therefore the worthie partaker of the Sacramēt receiues a blessing if a blessing then no pollution That he receiues a blessing the Apostle teacheth vs Wee are buried with Christ saith S. Paul by baptisme into his death c. Rom. 6.4 The cuppe of blessing which wee blesse is it not the communion of the blood of Christ The bread which we breake is it not the communion of the body of Christ 1. Cor. 11.16 I. Penry M. Some saith the worthy partaker receiues a blessing if a blessing no pollution c. First it is doubted whether we may be assured that it is a Sacrament Secondly he is no worthy receiuer that receiueth of an idole Minister Thirdly there may be a blessing receiued yet pollution in the receiuer Looke 2. Chro. 30.17.18 19. Nom. 9.7 R. Some Nodum in scirpo quaeris You stumble in the plaine way My answere is First if the vnpreaching Minister haue a calling which no learned man in this land doubteth of it cannot be denied to be a Sacrament It pleaseth you inter sacrum saxum haerere to doubt of it Secondly whosoeuer bringeth faith and repentance with him to the holy Table is a worthy receiuer though the Minister be an idole The vnworthines worthines of the Minister hurtes himselfe but not the godly communicant Otherwise the holy Prophets were vnworthie receiuers which communicated with idole priestes Thirdly you adde that a blessing may be receiued and yet pollution in the receiuer 2. Chr. 30. Nomb. 9. This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 iust from the corner to the staffe that I may vse your owne phrase Do you confute on this fashion You should haue proued that the worthy partaker of the Sacrament receiuing a blessing receiued pollution that is sinne by partaking the Sacrament Because this passeth your skill you fight with your shadowe and tell me that a blessing may be receiued and yet pollution in the receiuer That is to say that pollution is brought of the Communicant to the holy table not receiued from or by the holy Sacrament This makes nothing against that which I haue written Onely it bewrayeth your ignorance All godly men confesse that pollution that is sinne is in the holiest Communicants I meane peccatum habitans non regnans That is sinne dwelleth in Gods seruants but hath not dominion ouer them The Patriarks Nazarites Prophets Apostles had this pollution They could not shake it off in this life the best of them had their wants Only our Sauiour Christ was cleare of sinne You and I agree I am sure in this particuler If I should aske you how you proue pollution that is sinne to bee in the receiuer of the holy Sacrament you woulde referre mee to your quotations in the booke of Chronicles and Numbers Giue me leaue to examine your quotations a litle Your first place is in the Chronicles The words of the text are these Because there were many in the Congregation that were not sanctified therfore the Leuites had the charge of the killing of the Passeouer for all that were not cleane to sanctifie it to the Lord. For a multitude of the people euen a multitude of Ephraim and Manasseh Issachar and Zebulun had not cleansed themselues yet did cate the Passeouer but not as it was written Wherefore Hezekiah prayed for them saying The good Lord be mercifull toward him that prepareth his whole heart to seeke the Lord God the God of his fathers though hee be not cleansed according to the purification of the Sanctuarie 2. Chr. 30.17 18 19. All that you can proue by this place is that they of Ephraim Manasseh Issachar c. were vncleane according to the purification of the Sanctuarie that is touching some ceremonie of Moses law for which vncleannes they were dispensed with Your seconde place is in the booke of Numbers The wordes of the text are these And certaine men were defiled by a dead man that they might not keepe the Passeouer the same day and they came before Moses and before Aaron the same day And those men said vnto him we are defiled by a dead man wherefore are wee kept backe that wee may not offer an offering vnto the Lord in the time thereunto appointed among the children of Israel Then Moses said vnto them stand stil and I wil heare what the Lord will cōmande concerning you And the Lord spake vnto Moses saying Speake vnto the childrē of Israel say if any among you or of your posteritie shall he vncleane by the reason of a corps or bee in a long iourney he shall keepe the Passeouer vnto the Lord. Nu. 9. ver 6 7 8 9 10. All that you can gather of this place is that these mē which were defiled by reason of a dead mā did not celebrate the passeouer before the Lordes pleasure vvas knowen You cannot conclude either of this place in the booke of Numbers or of the former place in the Chronicles that sinne was in these which offered themselues to the Passeouer I doubt not but that these men had pollution that is sinne in them But I am sure these places neither doe nor can prooue it for you may not reason thus They of Ephraim c. were vncleane touching some ceremonie of Moses lawe therefore they were sinners If you do I deny your argument It is a certaine truth in diuinitie that not euery legall pollution was ioyned with sinne My reason is the touching of a dead body was a legall vncleannesse If it were a sinne then the buriall of the dead which is a Christian duetie and a worke of mercy should be sinne Thus you haue taken paines but to litle purpose You haue shotte I confesse but nec coelum nec terram attingis you are many scores wide R. Some The parents of Christ went to Ierusalem euery yere at the feast of the passeouer Luk. 2.41 Their going to Ierusalē was to testifie their religion to be partakers of the Sacrifices There were at that time in Solomons Temple manifold corruptions the high priesthood was solde