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A51572 The Messias of the Christians and the Jewes held forth in a discourse between a Christian, and a Iew obstinately adhering to his strange opinions, & the forced interpretations of scripture, wherein Christ the true savior of the whole world is described from the prophets and likewise that false and counterfeited Messias of the Jewes, who in vaine is expected by that nation to this very day, is discovered / written first in Hebrew, but now rendered into English by Paul Isaiah, a Jew born, but now a converted and baptized Christian. Münster, Sebastian, 1489-1552.; Eliazar Bar-Isajah. 1655 (1655) Wing M3039A; ESTC R42183 58,523 257

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the living for the transgression of my people was he smitten and he made his grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death because he had done no violence neither was any deceit in his mouth Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him hee hath put him to griefe when thou shalt make his soule an offering for sin he shall see his seed he shal prolong his daies and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands He shall see of the travell of his soule and shall be satisfied by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justifie many for he shall bear their iniquities Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great and he shall divide the spoile with the strong because hee hath poured out his soule unto death and hee was numbred with the transgressors and hee bare the sinne of many and made intercession for the transgressors You see here what Isaiah the Prophet hath said concerning the death of the Messias how he should die for our sins that he might save our soules and might lead us into the Kingdome of heaven and that he should see his seed and should prolong his daies and truly the pleasure of the Lord hath had a prosperous successe in his hand Forasmuch as his name hath been magnified in the whole earth and you who slew him are disperst throughout all the nations your house is desolate and you are become of the people of God not the people of God and of Gods peculiar inheritance an abomination in the eies of God and of the sons of God the sons of Belial But on the contrary they who beleeve in God and in his Christ these are the people the possession and the sons of God and they shall never see death because after this world sin shall not bee and by consequent neither death which is the punishment of sin Iew Our Masters speak far otherwise of these things for they say in the time of the Messias the earth shal be filled with the knowledge of the Lord because of the plentifull pouring forth of God whereby he shall then bow himselfe downe to the world neither shall faith be then corrupted neither shall man be changed but to good and to perfection It is also likely that then the dead shall not rise but they who have been just the wicked shall remain in death some few excepted And truly you have now seen that innumerable miracles shall be wrought in the time of the Messias as I have shewed you and because all these are not yet come to passe wee beleeve not in your Christ but doe expect our redeemer neither doe we despaire though many and great tribulations doe meet us in this our moderne captivity Christian You and your Rabbies do err very much for al these wonderfull things concerning which you have spoke to me are fulfilled already some few excepted which shall bee wrought in the second comming of Christ that is in the end of the world when Christ shall come to judge the quick and the dead for our Christ hath raised some dead from a corporall death and some from a spiritual death At this day Idolatry is taken out of the world and the earth is full of the knowledge of the Lord because all people doe at this day confesse one God Now many people doe goe to enter into the house of the God of Iacob which is the Church of beleevers in Christ Now the wolfe dwels with the lambe that is the ungodly man and the destroier with the meeke and hee doth not hurt him Moreover there was peace through the whole world in those daies when our Christ was born for one man namely Octavianus did then reign over the whole world in peace and in the world to come there shall be peace without end Now the gates of Ierusalem are open that is the Church of the faithfull is open and every man of each sex man and woman old man and young man rich and poor Iew and Gentile whosoever will may enter in Also the mountaine of the Lords house is prepared on the top of the mountaines and is lifted above the hils At this day in Ierusalem among beleevers the voice of weeping and mourning is no more heard because they have consolation here and they expect in the world to come joy which shall never bee taken from them There men shall live not only five hundred or a thousand yeares but for ever and ever Iew I understand not your words because you speake figuratively and not according to the letter of the Scripture Christian This is that which the Lord hath said by the Prophet The ox knows his owner and the asse his Masters crib but Israel doth not know my people doth not consider Likewise Moses saith the Lord shall smite thee with madness blindnesse and astonishment of hearth and thou shalt grope at noon day as the blinde man gropeth in darkness and thou shalt not prosper in thy daies Iew This is the punishment wherewith God doth chastise us for our sin but he will not throw off his people for ever Christian What is that your sinne for which this banishment which now you suffer so long after the second house is so much prolonged beyond the banishment of the first house since that it is sufficiently manifest of the greatnesse of the sins which the Kings of Iuda did and yet for them the time of banishment was not prolonged but two and fifty yeares but in the second house they did not worship Idols and neverthelesse the captivity endures wonderfull long Iew I answer you to this doubt thus The sins wch they cōmitted in the time of the first house were very grievous that even then it was decreed that the second Temple should not stand but seventy whole weeks and then againe they should suffer punishment and should beare the iniquity of their fathers to the end of the redemption as it is explained in the end of Daniel which present captivity in which wee now are is for the sins which the Israelites committed before the Babylonish captivity Christian This your answer is vaine for the sonne shall not bear the iniquity of his father if hee bee not a follower of his fathers wickednesse but I will heare what Daniel saith concerning that captivity Iew Behold he speaks after this manner Blessed is he that waites and comes to a thousand three hundred and thirty five daies but a yeare is as a long day And againe a day is a little yeare Likewise there is a certaine place found in the earth where almost a whole yeare is but one day For example there is a place where the day takes up six months and the night challengeth to it selfe the remnant of time there I say a yeare consists of one day So Daniel called dayes yeares because he would have his words shut up and sealed Christian And when shall the mentioned
number 1335 be accomplisht Iew Some say that number is extended to the year of the world 6118 which is the 2367 year of Christ For first they counted 1290 daies to that time when they laid down the abomination of desolation after the destruction of the temple according to the words of Daniel and afterwards they began to number 1335 daies But they who went before us did not receive this supputation but every man laboured to finde out some account which might agree with their daies And after this manner thou shalt finde with our Rabbies of good memory many divers bounds which are al past for they were carefull to finde out some neere bound lest the common people should despaire because redemption was suspended Christian And so your Rabbies doe alway seduce you saying behold at this time the Messias shall come and when that that is past again they say at that time he shall come How will yee believe these lying words Consider you have no hope and salvation is deferred from you and God is departed from you and you have no consolation not a prophet nor vision therefore be converted acknowledge your Saviour and our Saviour our Lord Christ Iew Neither have wee had from the beginning of the second Temple a Prophet or vision but in those daies when the Messias shall begin to grow Then prophecies and visions shall be multiplied But at this time all vision and prophecie is sealed for the end of the vision of the Prophets hath respect wholly to the growing of the Messias Kingdome When hee shall come we shall have great consolations so that al the daies of our captivity shall bee counted as a little moment as it is written I have left thee a little moment and in great mercies I wil gather thee Christian Vision and prophecy is shut up from your eies but not from our eies for we are all taught of God and the mysteries of the Kingdome of God are revealed to us and if you also will believe in our Lord Christ you may enter into the Kingdome of God Iew Wee cannot beleeve in your Christ because hee was a Magician and all his miracles were wrought by the Magick Art and therefore he was judged to death as the Lord God taught us and because hee brake the Sabbath and said hee was a God therefore the Iewes slew him Christian Hold your peace knave and doe not so reproach our Saviour but if you will at another time I will come to you that wee may speake more of this matter Who knows peradventure thou wilt acknowledge the truth and receive our Gospell Iew I am content that according to your pleasure you come to me but speak nothing to me of your bad tidings Christian Take heed to your selfe that you say not bad tidings but good tidings for it is a manifestation of the goodness of God which came to us by Christ the Redeemer of the world But why doe you so refuse to heare the Gospell and why doe you shun the light and will set in darknesse Is it not written concerning the light of the Gospell the people which did walke in darkenesse saw a great light and to them which dwell in the shadow of death light hath shined Iew This is the reason why I will not heare because Iesus your Messias was an evill man and his speeches were fained and the glorious God saw that hee would seduce the world and would set himselfe forth for God and for that God hath said that men should die but Iesus ought to bee hanged upon the Crosse that so all that should come into the world might see that hee was not God Moreover none of the Prophets hath prophecied frō that time wherin Christ being crucified was hang'd up none of Israel neither any of the Nations because a lying spirit did so much prevail in the world that there was no place for the spirit of prophecie But also we suffer al these tribulations and this very long captivity because that wicked man was borne of us and in our land who made himselfe God and seduced the whole world Christian All those evils which you Iewes suffer came not upon you because of our Christ because he said that he was God and the son of God but rather for this because your fathers slew him and crucified him a holy man and just the Saviour of the world who did no evill neither was deceit found in his mouth Behold this holy man your fathers slew and numbered him with the wicked and ye all allow this fact to this very day and therefore ye shall never find grace in the eies of God unlesse ye return from that evill way and acknowledge our Lord Iesus Christ whom ye in contempt do call Ieschim Vnless you beleeve in him you shall all perish and shall goe downe to hell Behold I have foretold it you shall not finde other salvation in heaven and in earth and for this cause seeke the Lord while he may be found call upon him while he is neere Forsake your unbelieving heart and returne to the Lord and he will have mercy on you and to our God for hee will abundantly pardon you Be not like your fathers who hardned their faces more than a rocke and would not returne to the Lord but dealt wickedly against the Lord the God of their fathers who delivered them to be spoiled as you see it at this day I beseech you harden not your necks as you have done hitherto but give your hands to the Lord and acknowledge that Christ is sent for the salvation of all men who shall beleeve in him the Lord our God is gratious and mercifull who will not turne away his face from you if yee returne to him Iew You shal never perswade me to receive your faith and believe in your Christ for that which you beleeve no reason can comprehend neither any man understand For how shal I beleeve that the Creator of heaven and earth and all things that are in them shut himselfe up in the wombe of a Iewish Virgin grew nine moneths and was borne a child and afterward increased in stature and was delivered into the hands of his enemies who condemned him with the judgement of death slew him on the Crosse and yee afterward say and beleeve that he lived again and returned to his former state neither the mind of a Iew neither can any man comprehend this therefore you spend your words in vaine seeing that these things have no likelihood of truth Christian Knowest thou not that nothing is unpossible to God verily all those things which you have now mentioned are in the Prophets but wrapt in the covering of words for thus saith the Prophet Isaias Behold a virgin shall conceive and beare a son and shall call his name Immanuel And in another place hee saith Hee was wounded for our transgressions he was bruised for our iniquities the chastisement of our peace was
years under the Law and 2000 yeares under the Messias then it should returne to its owne rudenesse But now the 2000 yeares of the Law and besides many above a thousand are past and your Messias is not yet come as ye Iewes say There is also another sign that the Law of Moses was given for a time because the Prophet saith remember the law of Moses my servant hee doth not say doe the law of Moses as if hee should say In the time of the Messias remember the law of Moses because then all things which are written in the law of Moses concerning the Messias shall be fulfilled for the offerings and sacrifices of oxen and sheep did foreshew the sacrifice of the Messias when he was led forth for a sacrifice and as a sheep which before the shearers is dumb so opened he not his mouth but with his blood hee hath washt us from our sins and hath cleansed away our iniquities Now therefore O Iewes I turne my selfe to you Behold yee pray morning and evening in all your prayers that the Messias and the Redeemer may bee sent to you and ye stand in the feast of propitiation from the evening to the morning crying and praying with your whole heart and your whole strength to the Lord that hee would heare you and send you the Messias but there is no change of your state there is none who understands your prayers or who opens the gates of heaven and takes you out of this life and much lesse who sends your Messias yea to speake somewhat more nothing is seen nothing is heard there is no voice or vision which may tell you the comming of the Messias And behold the property of the blessed God is to heare the prayers of the just and it is impossible according to your assertion who say your faith is true that there hath not been some just in all these generations which have been from the daies of the desolation of the Temple to this present that the blessed God hath not heard their praier and hath sent them the Messias for their merits or that some signe hath not been revealed to them or vision shewed or voice heard whence they might have a sign of his comming Furthermore for what cause doe you thinke the Messias doth so long defer his comming that he doth not redeem you How can hee in this so long time see your tribulations which yee suffer in this banishment and doth not deliver you out of your tribulations neither executes judgement against your enemies why doth hee suffer you so to wander through the deserts as sheep without a pastour and have not any certain dwelling why hath he cast you from him now so many yeares and doth not remember you with God Truly when formerly hee chastised your fathers for their sin presently after they confest and praied and humbled themselves before him in their captivity presently I say hee delivered them although they had even committed Idolatry and offended against the law of Moses had polluted the sabbath and solemnities had broke the covenant of Abraham yet I say notwithstanding these when they repented and did confess their sins forthwith he heard their prayers he repented of the evil inflicted upon them he delivered them and every day sent them the Prophets to comfort them in their banishment yea when before they were certified of the end of their captivity to wit that they should bee in captivity but seventy yeares but the present captivity is now prolonged beyond a thousand and five hundred yeares and it is certaine that in the second house they did not worship Idols neither committed they so much as one of those transgressions which they committed in the first house but neither in this captivity is any man found who worships Idols as they did in former daies and neverthelesse not any consolation or the voice of any oracle doth appeare or is made known What therefore is that your sin for which this captivity after the second house continues so long beyond the captivity of the first house except that ye would not receive and heare the Messias the Saviour when hee came to your land but did persecute him even to death yea when your fathers saw his miracles and terrible works such as no man ever did yet they would not beleeve on him and therefore neither for them neither for you shall ever any propitiation ever be made but being cast forth ye shal lie in the dark and shadow of death ye shall perish for ever unlesse yee bee converted and confesse him Measure for Measure Iew This captivity shall endure to the end of redemption to purge away the sin of our fathers as it is declared in the end of Daniel blessed is he that waites and shall come to one hundred thirty five daies By daies understand yeares as if he should say for the sins which they committed in the first house before the captivity of Babel the mentioned time must be expected c. Christian I have said even now that it is a great error among you to think the Sonne doth beare the iniquity of his father although he hath not committed his Sin seeing the Scripture saith plainly the sons shall not dye for the fathers c. And againe it is written Visiting the iniquity of the fathers unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate mee Where hee meanes that God doth not visit iniquity but unto the fourth generation and how many thousand generations doe you thinke are past to this present time Behold now from the time of the destruction of the Temple and City not only a thousand three hundred and thirty five yeares but many more are past and your fathers expected the Messias about the end of those yeares for so they interpreted the mentioned place of Daniel and neverthelesse your Messias is not yet come neither hath removed from you the punishments of this very long captivity Iew This captivity is prolonged for the transgression which the Israelites did in the second house making themselves gods as Jesus the Apostles and other Saints did who all were Jewes and did perversely interpret the sayings of the Prophets concerning Jesus and made him as it were a perpetual Idol for this the Israelites are almost perpetuated in this so long captivity Christian Doubtlesse no man is ignorant how very grievously the Kings of Judea and Israel sinned in the first house who ordained Priests for the worship of Idols and cleane destroyed the true worship of God and nevertheless they were in captivity but seventy yeares But in the modern captivity they who have acknowledged Christ and have called him the son of God have not denied God but they saw the workes of God in Christ and said this is the son of God But if they had erred in this yet for this they had not denyed God which seeing it is thus why is this your captivity so wonderderfully prolonged