of Dauid Who though the eternall punishment due to the guilt of his sinns was for giuen yet was punished temporally by the death of his Sonne For these are the words in Scripture after his sinne was forgiuen Because thou hast caused the name of God to be blasphemed the Child that is borne to thâ—e shall dye In lyke sort Dauids sinne in numberring his People being remitted him yet was he put to chuse for his temporall punishmeÌ„t and satisfaction either Warre Famine or Pestilence Now the guilt of eternall damnation for sinne being remitted there remaineth a temporall punishment And this teÌ„porall punishment thus reserued is the sole subiect of Indulgences Therefore an Indulgence as heare the word is taken is a mercifull relaxation or remission of temporall punishment due for sinne by applying the super abundant satisfaction of Christ after the sinne it selfe and guilt of eternall damnation due to mortall sinne is remitted by the Sacrament of Confession or for want thereof by perfect Contrition The ground and foundation of Indulgencs is cheifly the treasury and satisfaction of Christs death which is of that infinity greate valew an pryce seeing euery drop of his bloud was able to redeeme a thousands Worlds in regard of his Diuinity being vnited to his Humanity as that it can ueuer be exhausted For we reade that Christ dyed for all Also that Christ is apropitiation for our sinns and not for our sinns only but for the Sinns of the whole World But it is certaine that the pryce of Christs death was not actually applyed to all Men hitherto liuing since then it would follow that all Men which hitherto haue liued should haue bene saued Therefore it followeth that theare yet remayneth a greate abundance of the pryce of Christ passion if it were not in finite as indeede it is to be applyed and still will remaine The dispenser of this treasury of the Church is the Heade of Christs Church who hath power to apply this treasury for the absoluing of Men from their temporall punishment due to their Sinns allready remitted by Sacramentall Confession according to the authority geuen him in those words Whatsoeuer thou losest vpon earth shal be losed in Heauen with which place accord other places of the Euangelists Now these words being generall they do extend as well to the punishment due for sinne as to the sinne itselfe seing the punishment is as remissible as the Sinne And as to the one are applyed Christs Meritts so to the other Christs â—atisfactions The Cause why any Indulgence is granted to any Man ought to be iust and reasonable or otherwyse the Indulgence granted is of no valew for seing the Pope is not Lord of this spirituall treasure of the Church but only the distributer thereof therefore this distribution he cannot make without a iust reasonable and lawfull Cause The Partie receauing the benefit of an Indulgence ought at the tyme of receauing it to be in state of grace since otherwise he can reape no benefit by any Indulgence to which state he is brought by true Contrition of his former Sinns although not perhaps forgeuen in respect of eternall damnation in the Sacrament of Confession And heare is discouered the trissling vanity falshood of our Aduersaries in affirming that the Catholicks teach that the Pope can giue a fore hand an Indulgence to any Man for any sinne which hereafter is to be committed Since wee see that the obiect of an Indulgence is the temporall punishment only and not the punishment of damnation and this for a sinne allready committed and not hereafter to be committed of which a Man being in state of grace and consequently not one who beareth a present resolution to commit any sinne hereafter is remitted by his Indulgence applyed to hym vpon iust and reasonable Causes We are further heare to admonish that the Partie receauing an Indulgence ought to performe entyrely and precisly all things enioyned hym by his Indulgence Whether it be prayer Alms fasting c. According to that vsuall saying Indulgentia tantum valent quantum sonant Wheare it is taught that the Merits and suffrings of some greate Saincts as of our Blessed Lady S Iohn Baptiste and some others do concurre to the encrease of this spirituall Treasure of the Church which is the foundation of Indulgences this is to be vnderstood in this sense to wit that because their Meritts works and sufferings haue their vertue and valew only from the Meritts of our Sauiours Passion And that they onely concurre to the increase of the treasure as they depend vpon the meritts of Christ therefore it may be truly said that primatiuely and Originally only the Meritts and Passion of Christ do make this spirituall treasure from whence Indulgences do flowe Ad hearto that if S. Paule might truly say in a researued sense Ad imple ea quae desunt passionum Christi in earne mea pro corporâ—â—ius quod est Ecclesia I do fullfill those things that do want of the passion of Christ in my flesh for his body which is the Church words which if any Catholicke should haue auerred of any one Sainct without the warrant of the Apostle he should haue bene mighrely calumnâ—ated and wronged by the Protestants then followeth it that the afflictions and sufferings of S. Paule as receauing their force from Christs PassioÌ„ may be said without any indignitie to Christ to encreasse this spirituall treasure of the Church For these former words do not import that there was any defect in the Passion of Christ but that the sufferings of S. Paule did fulfill the plenitude of Christ his Passion and his members for the benefit of those to whom they are to be communicated For as Christ being the inuisible and supreme heade of his Church doth with his Church make but one mysticall body so his sufferings with the sufferings of his members receauing all their force and efficacy from the Passion of Christ do make as S. Austin affirmeth one common and publâ—ke Weâ—le or one publike treasure And according hereto it is that we fynd offered S. Paules afflictions sometymes for the Colossians at other times for the Corinthians he desiring at one tyme to dye for the Romans at an other tyme to become an Aâ—athemâ— for them To proceede further The Old Testament it selfe warranteth this mutuall communication of one suffering for an other And in this sense it is said of Gods Church there entituled Ierusalem that it is as a Citty whose participationes in it selfe That is As in a publicke Citty there is a generall trafficke for the publicke benefit of euery particular Citizen So in the Citty of God which is his Church there is a communion or participation of all the spirituall works thereof to the generall benefit and behooâ—e of eich particular Man And vpon this ground it is that Dauid said in respect of the communication of one Mans sufferings for an other
say as of the halfeblood to a Protestant so little affinity there is betweene the Protestants Religion and these Mens religion I grant that some Protestants and these but very few and of meane esteeme do instance through their security of better examples in these your mentioned men but how coldy and weakly we will now discouer And first touching the Booke written against Images in the name of Carolus Magnus I say first that booke concerneth only but one point of Religion and consequently it can giue no proofe of Protestancy in those dayes Secondly I auer that it was forged by some Heretike that denyed the doctrine of Images perhapps in those dayes but neuer made or allowed by Carolus Magnus This I prooue first because Carolus Magnus was wholy addicted and deuoted to the Church of Rome and it fayth in generall And therefore the lesse probable it is that he should wrâ—t or suffer to be written in his name any booke inpugning but any one point of that Religion I will relate the words of Hospinian the Protestant touching his affection to the Catholicke fayth Thus be sayth Carolus Magnus nonsolum publicis edictis c. Charles the Great did not only command by publike Edicts that the Ceremonyes rites the Latin Masse of the Church of Rome and other decresse and Instituts of the Pope of Rome should be obserued through out the whole Empyre but also himselfe did force the Churches to these obseruations vnder payne of impresonments and other kinds of punishments with whom also conspireth in iudgment herein Crispinus M. Cowper and Osiander Secondly in that it is acknowledged by learned writers that Carolus Magnus was an enemy to those who impugned Images For Paulus Aemilius witnesseth that Carolus did send twelue Bishops vnto a Councel houlden at Rome vnder Pope Steuen in confutation of the errour of the Grecians against Images The same doctrine of Images as defended by Carolus is further confessed by the Centurists D. Cowper and by Ioannes Aurelianensis who liued in the tyme of Carolus Magnus Thirdly and lastly there are suspicious of the forgery of that Booke For it appeareth out of the booke of Pope Adrian to Carolus Magnus which booke was purposely written against that booke diuulged in Carolus his name that the said booke was then written by some secret enemy of Images a point so euident that Caluin intimateth the vncertainty of the Authour of that Booke thus saying Eâ—tat refutatorius liber sub Caroli Magni nomine c. There is extant a booke of refutation vnder the name of Carolus Magnus which we may easily gather to be made about that tyme so doubtfully and irresolutly Calum writeth of the authour of that Booke Touching the supposed booke of Beriram written de Corpore Sanguine Domine and dedicated to Charle the Bawld as said to impugne the doctrine of the Reall Presence in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist Which booke some thinke to haue bene forged by Oeculampadius in the name of Bertram I say M. D. first this booke writeth so doubtfully and intricatly of the Reall Presence vsing the words figure spirituall and Mystery with such qualifications as that no strong Argument against the Reall Presence can be drawne from thence yea which is more this booke so much fauoreth the Reall Presence as that the Centurists do thus censure of it Transubstantiationis semina habet Bertramus The booke of Bertram hath in it the seedes of Transubstantiation Secondly the Catholicke wryters of those tymes as Hospinian relateth at large did honour Bertram as a holy Martyr of the Catholicke Church How then is it probable that Bertram should wryte a booke against one of the cheifest Articles defended beleiued by the said Church Thus far of Bertram Touching Vlricke who was Bishop of Augusta who is vrged for a Protestant in that it is supposed he should wryte an Epistle to Pope Nicolas in behalfe of Priests Mariage and printed lately at Basill We reply that by force of all Reason this Epistle is but forged by some enemy of the Roman Church in his name and was written diuers yeares after Pope Nicolas was dead or before that Vlrick was borne For as Onuphrius writeth Pope Nicolas the first to whom it is supposed Vlrick should write was elected Pope anno 858. enioying the same nyne yeares and two months dyed anno 867. Whereas Vlrick was not made Bishop of Augusta till anno 924. Which was after the death of Pope Nicolas And he contemning Bishop fifty yeares dyed anno 973. Of which point we may reade Vspergensis Cytraeus Pantaleon D. REYNOLDS But what say you Michaeas touching Burengarius I hope it cannot be denyed but that he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation MICHAEAS I come to Burengarius who liued anno 1051. and was Archdeacon of Angiers who is challenged for a Protestant for his deniall of Transubstantiation in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist I answere first It is true that for a time he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation yet afterwards he recanted his Heresy therein and dyed most Catholicke in that Article Secondly I answere that this Heretick-Catholicke Berengarius did hould diuers errours euen in the iudgment of Oecolampadius the Protestant who thus writeth of him Berengarius non nulla affirmat aduersus Baptismum parnulorum coniugium Berengarius affirmeth diuers things against the Baptisme of Infants and Marriage And againe Damnata est Berengarij Opinio Sacerdotio Christiano parum minus tribuens The Opinion of Berengarius is condemned which ascribed ouer little to Christian Priesthood Also Papir Masson in his Annals of France writeth that Berengarius and his followers denyed the grace of Baptisme denyed that men committing mortall sinne could euer obtaine Pardon and further that Berengarius was an enemy to Mariage Thus much of Berengarius his owne and his followers Heresyes though himselfe before his death according to the iudgment of certaine Catholicke Writers recanted his Heresyes But M. D. and you Gentlemen I will conclude this passage with recurring to one obseruation aboue set downe suppose therefore for the tyme that these former bookes were doubtfull but truly penned by the Authours vnder whose name they go suppose also that Berengarius had neuer recanted his heresy in denying of Transubstantiation suppose finally that you may alledge diuers other sectaryes houlding this or that point of Protestancy yet what can all this conuince It can neuer proue any Visibility of the Protestant Church seeing all these thus admitted are but the Examples of one or other priuate Man who was originally Catholicke and after embraced some one or two points of Protestancy still remayning in all other articles wholy Catholicke And therefore I much commend the Ingenuity of D. Fulke herein who foreseing the impertinency of these Examples of Bertram Berergarius and those others reiecteth them in these
only through the proper forme of the loadstone And Whether the turning of the irons point to the North being touched with the loadstone is to be referred to some huge supposed mountayne of loadstone in the vttermost Northparts or to any one place of the Heauens neere to the Northpole or to the intrinse call forme of the loadstone it selfe Whether Algebra be a distinct Art from Arythmetyke or but the same aduanced to it height and perfection Whether in the miracles of Christ and S. Peter exhibited in curing of corporall diseases and the like may be demanded of all true miracles of this nature God did for the tyme infuse a Physicall quality for example in the skirt of our Sauiours garment in the shadow of S. Peter which per potentiam obedientialem as the Scholemen speake did worke vpon the diseases and so cure them Or els God himselfe did immediatly worke these supernaturall effects ad praesentiam illorum at the presence of the skirt and shadow which in their absence otherwise he would not worke And finally to omit diuers others such nyce and abstruse speculations and but to touch a little vpon Diuinity Whether Communicatio Idiomatum flowing from the Hypostaticall vnion in Christ is reall in respect of the different natures in Christ or with reference only to the Hypostasis of both the Natures In these I say and many such like curiosities for so I may tearme them this last only excepted diuers of you haue no doubt spent and perhaps with great commondation many howres by perusing with your owne eyes seuerall Authours by discussing the arguments brought on all sides to fortify their different opinions And yet it mattereth litle on which syde the Truth lyeth in most of these speculations But wheresoeuer it is found in them we may equally and indifferently breake forth with the three Children in praysing of God for his Omnipotency and Wisdome discouered in them saying Benedicite Omnia opera Domini Domino If then you haue bene so industrious and breathles herein and so absorpt in the delight of these lesse necessary studyes O with what a spirituall Leithargy are such of you possessed who in matters of Religion the truth or falshood wherof concerns your soules interminable and endles happynes or misery shall runne on headlong till you come to your graues in an vnexamined and yet resolued opinion agaynst the Catholike fayth with a supine resignation of your iudgments in all poynts of Religion without further tryall to the wrytings for example of Caluin and Beza whose pestiferous Scripts many make their Catechismes Men charged euen by their owne Brethren with the execrable cryme of Sodomy And remember you not that we gather not grapes of thorns nor figs of thisles But herewith most excellent Academians I will end and craue pardon for this my fulnes of speach entreating you to call to mynd those words meliora sunt vulnera diligentis quam fraudulenta oscula odientis And thus remitting you to the perusall of these following Dialogues I will with my incessant prayers solicit the Highest who is Pater luminum and from whom Omne datum optimum omne bonum perfectum descendit so to enlighten your iudgements in your studyes and courses that after this life you may be as truly beatifyed with the Intuitiue knowledge of all things in the most happy vision of God As now here vpon earth you labour to enrich your mynds mith all commendable Discursiue knowledge Yours in Christ Iesus I. C. THE CONVERTED IEW. OR A DIALOGVE WHEREIN IS PROOVED That the Church of ROME hath made no change in Faith and Religion since the first Plantation of it by the Apostles INTERLOCVTOVRS MICHEAS A IEWISH RABBIN CARDINALL BELLARMINE DOCTOVR WHITAKERS MICHEAS MOST ILLVSTRIOVS CARDINAL and most reuerend and learned Doctour Such is the spreading fame of both your perfections in the sacred knowledge of Deuinity as that the report therof hath I confesse euen giuen wings to my old age to hasten my fleight to this noble Citty of Cosmopolis in Vtopia which as being honored through both your presence is for the time become the Rendeuous of all good literature Touching my selfe know you both that I am by birth and till this present also in Religion a Iew by name Micheas who euer haue honoured the Lord of Hoasts the God of Abraham the God of Isaack the God of Iacob and the Lord God of the Hebrews beleeuing with your Apostle Paul God grant with the like happy successe to him in change of my Religion who by his rysing faule as I may tearme it was no sooner strucken downe to the ground then he began to ascēd towards Heauen all things that are written in the Law and the Prophets and instructed according to the verity of the Law of the Fathers Of late I haue diligently perused the writings of your Euangelists the foure Historigraphers of that Holy Man whome you Christians call Iesus I also haue exactly red the Acts of your Apostles these faithfull seruants of the said Iesus who first sowed the seedes of their Maisters heauenly doctrine and after did watter them with their owne bloud To be short I haue bene much conuersant in these Letters Missiues if so they may be called I meane in the Epistles of the said Apostles written to diuers Nations for their better instruction in the Christian Faith as also in that most abstruse worke of your Sauiours Best-beloued commonly called the Apocalyps I haue made most particuler reference of all those writings to the Prophesies recorded in our owne Law and I do freely confesse and indeede with an ineffable griefe that that Holy One whome my Fore-Fathers and in them my selfe did put to the most opprobrious death of the Crosse was and is the Sonne of the Highest and the true Sauiour of the World and therefore I thinke it the lesse wounder that the stony harts of vs Iewes best discouered by such our cruell proceedings were figured by the Tables of Stones wherin the Law was first giuen to vs. Yea I am so inalterably perswaded herein that I do auouch that all the cheife Particularities concerning him were most punctually prophesied by the Antient Fathers of the Iewish Law Thus for example was his Precursor foretold in Esay cap. 40. That he should be borne of a Virgine Esay 7. The place of his birth Micheas 5. The death of the Cheldren at his birth Ierom. 31. His preaching Esay 61. His foure Eunngelists Ezechiel 1. The chusing of his Apostles Psalm 8. His riding vpon an Asse into Ierusalem Esay 62. and Zachary 9 The betraying of him by him who dipped his hand in the dish Psalm 41. The Iewes spittiug in his Face and buffeting of him Esay 50. The Iewes mocking of him Psalm 22. The deuiding of his garmēts Psalm 22. Their giuing to him gaule and Vinegar to drinke Psalm 69. The manner of his death by piercing his hands and feete Psalm 22.
a Protestant Church preaching the Word and administring the Sacraments vpon the face of the earth to be seene or heard of But hereat I meruayle not since Philosophy reacheth vs to speake by all â—sion that where the Obiect is wanting there the sense suspendeth it operation DOCTOVR REYNOLDS Admitting all that you say to be true touching the first twenty yeares before Luther yet it is most euâ—cent that Iohn Hus who liued anno 1400. and not very many yeares before those 20. yeares was a good and true Protestant for him I fynd registred for a most holy Martyr by M. Fox and D. Downeham MICHAEAS Iohn Hus did liue in the yeare 1400. Who first was a Catholicke Priest The cause of his death was in that he taught the Necessity of Communion vnder both kinds and the seditious doctrine touching Princes Bishops and Priests being in mortall sinne But to make a more particular dissection of this Instance The Articles wherein his followers the Bohemians dissented from the Church of Rome were these following which M. Fox thus relateth The Bohemians being demanded in what poynts they did differ from the Church of Rome the only Propositions which they propounded were these foure Articles first Communion vnder both kinds The second that al Ciuil dominiou was forbidden to the Clergy The third that the preaching of the Word was free for all Men and in al places The fourth that open crymes are in no wyse to be suffered for auoyding of greater euill Thus M. Fox of the Hussite who we see as comparting with the Church of Rome in all other points cannot possibly be alledged for visible members of the Protestant Church D. REYNOLDS But what do you say of Iohn Hus himselfe was not he a Protestant and dyed in defence of the Protestant fayth MICHAEAS M. D The testimonies of Luther and M. Fox shall decide this point betweene vs. And first M. Fox thus saith of him Quid vnquam docuit aut in concilio defendit Hussius c. What did Hus defend at any tyme or taught in the councel wherein he might not seeme euen superstitiously to agree with the Papists What doth the Popish fayth teach concerning Transubstantiation which he did not in like sort confirme with the Papists Who did celebrate Masses more religiously then he Or who more chastly did keep the vowes of Priestly single life Add hereto that touching freeâ—â—l fayth predeâ—â—nation the cause of iustification merit of Works what other thing taught he then was taught at Rome What Image of any saint did he cast out at Bethleem therefore what can we say for which he deserued death touching the which he is not a like to be condemned with the Sea of Rome or with it to be freed and absolued Thus far M. Fox with whom agreeth Luther thus writing of Hus The papists burned Hus when as he departed not a fingars breadth from the papacy for he taught the same which the papists do only he did find fault with their vices and wicked life agaynst the Pope he did nothing Thus Luther Besides all the Catholicke doctrines mantained by Hus he taught as aboue is touched the Heresy of Wiclef to wit that there are no Princes Priests or Bishopps whyle they are in mortall sinne as M. Fox recordeth with whom agreeth the Protestant Osiander thus wryting Nullus est Dominus ciuilis nullus est Praelatus nullus est Episcopus dum est in mortali peccato Haec propositio approhart non potest sed passus est Ioannes Hus hac in parte aliquid humani There is no Ciuill Prince no Prelate or Bishop whiles he is in mortall sinne This proposition cannot be approued but Iohn Hus suffered herein the infirmity of Man Now I cannot but admire the incredible boldnes of M. Fox who acknowledging the former Heresy mantayned by Hus but especially granting as shewed out of his owne words that Hus did hould all the cheise points and frame of the present Roman Religion was neuerthelesse not ashamed to pronounce Iohn Hus for a most holy Martyr as aboue is expressed meaning a martyr of his owne Protestant Church So gladly you Protestants for the supporting of the continuance and visibility of your Church do make clayme to any Catholicke or hereticke whosoeuer who in one only point of Religion though dissenting in all others may seeme to compart and interleague with you Thus far of Hus whom to legitimate for a Protestant you see it is impossible OCHINVS I must here agree in iudgment with Michaeas And this Instance had far better bene forborne then obtruded And indeed it is no small blemish to our Church to insist in such weake and insufficient examples But M. Doctour Let vs entreate you to rise vp to Higher tymes in your discourse D. REYNOLDS I will satisfy your desire The next then in whom I will instance shal be our owne Contryman Wicklef Whom all the world I hope will euen dispose that he was a perfect Protestant and that himselfe and his followers enioyed the administration of the Word and Sacraments the practize of which is acknowledged to be an essentiall note of the Churches Visibility This my opinion touching Wicklef being a Protestant is not myne alone but it is warranted with the authorityes of M. Fox and the learned Crispinus MICHAEAS Indeede M D. M. Fox Crispinus I grant do so teach but how truly Obserue what followeth and then geue vp your eauen and impartiall iudgment And yet before I come to the tuche of this point I must put you in mind what thy two former Protestants grant in the places by you cited that at Wickleffs reuolt supposing him to be a Protestant the Protestant Church was wholy inuisible for thus M. Fox writeth In the tyme of horrible darknes when there seemed in a manner to be no one so little sparke of pure doctrine left or remayning Wicklef by Gods prouidence rosevp through whom the Lord would first awaken raize vp againe the World Thus he This Wicklef being an Englishman as you know M. D. was a Catholicke Priest and Person of Lutterworth in Leicestershirs and as Stow relateth He first inueighed against the Church of Rome because he had bene depriued by the Archbishop of Canterbury from a certaine benefice He liued anno 1370. Now that Wicklef cannot be truly claymed for a Protestant I proue in that besides he was a Catholicke Priest and no Church of the Protestants then knowne to him he still retayned many Catholicke Opinions and withall taught diuers notorious Heresyes Touching his Catholicke Opinions still beleiued by him I will alledge diuers out of his owne Wrytings First he beleiued seauen Sacraments thus writing of them Quaedam sacramentaper se promulgauit Christus c. Certaine sacraments Christ did promulgate by himself as Baptisme the Eucharist the sacrament of Orders and of Penance certaine also by his Apostles as the sacraments of Confirmation and of Extreme
the old Testament and absolutly to abandon and disclayme from the New And therefore let vs returne backe to Michaeas and the Doctour to acquaint them with this our finall resolution OCHINVS Michaeas and M. Doctour My selfe and Neuserus haue in the secretts of our soules passed our impartiall censures vpon this our Conference And we both acknowledge the full weight of Michaeas his resons in disprouall of your instances of our owne former euading answeres And our Conclusion is that we both assure our selfs that the ProtestaÌ„t Church had neuer any visible existence for these many last seuerall ages at the least And in deed I confesse when I do consider how Christ by his power wisdome and goodnes had established and founded his Church washed it with his bloud and enriched it with his spirit and discerning how the same is funditus auersa vtterly ouerthrowne I cannot but wonder and being desirous to know the cause I find there haue bene Popes who haue preuayled in vtter extirpation and ouerthrow of Christ his Church Here you haue my ceusure accompanyed with the true Reason thereof NEVSERVS I do fully conspyre in iudgment with Ochinus mooued thereto through the strenght and validity of Michaeas his Arguments And yet I hope this is no blemish eyther to you M. Doctour who haue most learnedly handled this poynt nor to our selfs but only to the weaknes of our cause for there are some vntruths so palpable and iniustifiable and among them rang the supposed visibility of our owne Church that neyther learning Art or the bestfiled words which commonly 〈◊〉 the eare of credulity are able to set a good gayne vpon them Therefore Michaeas to be snort in beleiung that the Protestant Church for many centuryes hath bene wholy inuisible Ochinus and my selfe are wholy yours MICHAEAS I much reioyce thereat and I hope notwithstanding both your former acerbity of speeches that now vpon your second and more serious renew of this point the acknowledgment of this one Truth wil be a good disposition for your further encertaynment of the Catholicke fayth since a dislike of the Protestant Church implyeth in itselfe a fauorable respect to the Catholicke Church which Church hath euer bene houored with a perpetuall visibility OCHINVS Stay Michaeas Not so You are ouer hasty your praeÌ„ is as yet not gotten and your credulous expectation ouerrunne your iudgment Know you therefore first that touching your Church at the stearâ—e whereof that Romish Antichrist doth sit we hould it not as aboue we protested to be the Church of God And then it matâ—reth nothing with vs whether your sayd Antichristian Church haue euer since it first being bene visible or no For though we teach that the true Church must euer be visible yet we teach not conuertibly that what Church hath euer bene visible the same is the true Church Furthermore Michaeas and M. Doctour take both you notize that the confessed want of a continuall visibility and of the administration of the word and Sacraments ministreth to vs a great suspicion whether the Church of Christ be that Church of God which is so much celebrated by the Prophets of the Old Testament and consequently whether Christ be the true Messias of the World For if he had so been doubtlesly he would not so quickly haue repudiated his intemerate and chast spouse for so the true Church of God is after his departure from hence NEVSERVS What Ochinusâ—ath â—ath deliuered though perhapps with amazement to you both I do here iustify And as it is euident that the former Prophecyes haue not been actually performed in Christ his Church So we must needs rest doubtfull at the least through want of the performance of the sayd Predictions whether Christ be that Redeemer of the World which was promised to the Fathers of the old Law And whether he had true authority to erect this Church of which he hath made himselfe Head â—or certainly the auncient Predictions deliuered in a propheticall spirit touching the Messias and his Church are infallibly to be performed in the Messias his Church MICHAEAS How now my Maysters Is this the fruit of my refelling your Churches Visibility Tends your approbation of my former discours to this Whether ayme these strange and fearefull speeches of yours Will you disclayme from Christ as your Redeemer because the Prophecyes of the old Testament touching the expansion latitude and continuall visibility of the Church of God are not performed in the Protestant Church And will you not confesse the sayd predictions to be fulfilled at all because they are not fulfilled by that way and meanes as your selfs would haue them Take heed do not obliterate and deface those fayre impressions charactered in your soules at your Baptisme neyther now diâ—auoâ—â— your then taken first now O mercifull God how ignorant are you in these matters And then more miserably ignorant it that partly through learning you are become ignorant Do you thinke to honour the Father by dâ—shonoring the Sonne euen that Sonne in whome the Father tooke such ineffable contentment Hic est filius meus dilectus in quo mihi complacui Certayne it is that if you perseuer in iudgment as your words import you deny him for your Sauiour who had a Father without a Mother a Mother without a Father The first argued his Diuinity the second his immaculate and pure Natiuity Quod de Deo profectum est 〈…〉 eus est Dei Filius Vnus Ambo You deny him whose body was framed of such an admirable and delicate constitution and temperature as that the earth did then contrary to it accustomed manner euen power it influence vpon Heauens To be shorâ— you deny him who gaue himselfe 〈◊〉 Redemption for all who tasted death for all who tooke away the sinnes of the World and finally who was Sauiour of the world and reconciliation for our sinnes In the tyme of whose Passion death did euen â—euiâ—e and Eclips did enlighten Lux in tenebris lucet tenebrae eum non comprehenderunt But why labour I to celebrate his byrth who is from all eternity or to performe his exequies who cannot dye Mors illi vltrà non dominabitur And by you assured that who contemne Christ the Redeemer of all flesh must needs contemne God the Authour of all flesh And where you call the Pope that Romish Antichrist see how malice seeleth vp the eye of your iudgement you mantayne is seems that the true Christ and Messias is not yet come How can the Pope then by your doctrine be Antichrist since Antichrist you know is to come after not before the true Christ Againe for prouffe that the Pope is Antichrist you no doubt will make show to rest vpon the wrested authority of the New Testament And shall not then the said New Testament be of the like authority with you to proue that Christ is the true Messias OCHINVS Tush Michaeas This is but
I am made partaker of all that feare the Lord. Now this former doctrine touching the sufferings of one to be applyed to an other being the vndoubted true and auncient doctrine of Christ Church vpon which ground Indulgances are builded it from hence appeareth how idly and impertinâ—ntly our aduersaryes do vrge some texts of Scripture to the contrary As where it is sayd The soule which sinneth â—â—en that shall dye And againe Euery one shall be are his owne burden And more No Man câ—â— redeeme his brother or giue a price to God for him All which texts are spoken of the state of eternall damnation and therefore impertinently alledged in which state a Man deparâ—eth out of this World but they are not spoken of temporall punishment only which is reserued after the guilt of eternall damnation is remitted which is the point here controuerted If it be vrged against this doctrine that the actions of the Saincts deceased were meritts to themselues and therefore cannot be applyed as satisfactions for others â—o this I answere that one and the same action may be in a different respect both meritorious and satisfactory Meritorious as it proceedeth from supernaturall grace satisfactory as it is performed with payne labour and difficulty According hereto we reade in Scripture that almeâ—deeds do both merit and satisfy for sinne For thus we reade Whosoeuer shall giue in my name a cup of cold water c. he shall not loose his reward Here is merit We also reade of Almeâ—deeds in this sort Almesdeeds deliuer vs from sinne and death and againe As water quencheth the fire so Almesdeeds extinguish sinne Here is satisfaction Here also we are to conceaâ—e that though the same action may be meritorious and satisfactory yet a man meriteth only for himselfe not for others but satisfy he may both for himselfe and for others only Christ our Sauiour hath merited both grace and glory for vs all and also hath satisfyed for the sinnes of all Men Yet the worth and price of his merites we can apply only to ourselues by our meritorious actions and not deriue it to any other but the benefit of his satisfaction we may deriue by our owne satisfactory works not only to our selues but also to others Where it is vulgarly objected that Iuduigences are oftentymes granted for more thousands of years then the World or Purgatory are like to endure and continue And that therefore they are ridiculously and foolishly granted I answere this argument proceedeth from meere Ignorance For heere the yeres are not to be vnderstood of the yeres or dayes of penall satisfaction which are to be imposed in Purgatory but of the number of yeres which were more or lesse in number proportioned according to the diuersity of the crime by the Canonicall Decrees of the Church And here we are further to know that God in the space and compasse of an houre or some such short time may by the bitter paynes of Purgatory expiate that which in this life a remisse and slow penance or satisfaction would scarce redeeme in the compasse of many yeres Now touching the antiquity of Indulgences we fynd them practized by S. Paul who thus sayth of the incestuous person Whom you haue pardoned I also pardon for that which I haue pardoned in the Person of Christ for you I haue done it that we be not circumuented of Satan Here now we are to remember that the incestuous person to whom the Indulgence was heere giuen being in great contrition and sorrow for his sinne was excommunicated by S. Paul who at the request of the Corinthians did release him of his excommunication for feare he might faule into dispayre Now in this example we find all things necessary to an Indulgence or Pardon As first the authority of the granter of the pardon to wit S. Paul who affirmes to do it in the person of Christ Secondly state of grace in the Receauer of the Indulgence as appeareth by his Contrition and sorrow for his sinne committed Thirdly the temporall punishment remitted to wit his Excommunication Lastly a iust sufficient cause for giuing this Indulgence or Pardon Which was lest the offendour should faule into dispayre or be ouerplunged in sorrow After the Apostles tymes we fynd that the Bishops of the Primatiue Church gaue pardons and Indulgences to many and this was done by the mediation of Confessours or designed Martyrs as is witnessed by Tertullian Cyprian We also find that Pardons and Indulgences were giuen by sundry â—â—opes in other ages as by Leo the third by Gregory the Great by Vrban the second by Innocentius the third by Paschalis the first and by others All which dispensed and distributed out of the common treasure of the Church Besides the former authorityes the doctrine and vse of Indulgencs is warranted by Councells both Generall and Prouinciall To wit the first Councel of Nice the Councell of Ancyran the Councell of Leodice the Councell of Claramontane the Councell of Lateran of Vienna of Constance and of Trente as appeareth in the Councells themselfs Now if the former auncient Popes and Fathers as also these alledged Councells should erre in the doctrine of Indulgences then two mayne absurdityes should follow first that the Primatiue Church should most fouly erre in a dogmaticall poynt of fayth contrary to the iudgment of the more sober Leared Protestants among whom I will for breuity heare set downe the iudgment only of Kempnitius touchâ—ng the Primatiue Church who thus saith I dowbt not but the Primatiue Church receaued from the Apostles and Apostolicall Men not only the text of Scripture but also the natiue sense thereof But this the Primatiue Church could not receaue if it wholy erred in so mayne a matter of Christian doctrine as the doctryne of Indulgences is The second Absurdity is that in regard of the said Fathers and Generall Councells defending the doctrine of Indulgences the whole Church of Christ supposing the doctrine to be faâ—se should erre in matter of fayth contrary to the Promise of Christ who hath promised euer to be with his Church till the end of the World which said Church of his is styled by the Apostle for it greater certainty of fayth columna firmamentum veritatis and therefore incompatible with errour And thus much concerning the doctrine of Indulgences ending this discours with the Confession of Kempnitius touching the antiquity thereof who plainly acknowledgeth and saith that the beginning of Indulgences is not clearely enough set downe in histories The Catholicke doctrine touching Communion vnder one Kynd defended THe true state of this question is not whether Christ did institute the Eucharist vnder both kynds Or whether hymselfe and the Apostles did at the first institution receaue it vnder both kynds Or whether the Apostles and the Fathers afterwards at sundry tymes did minister it to the Laity vnder both kynds for all this
errein such particular poynts But the Case 〈…〉 otherwyse When many of the cheife Pastours and Father 〈…〉 seuerall Ages of the Primatiue Church do concurrently teach a poynt of doctrine as an Article of fayth And that they are not contradicted by any other of the Fathers for their mantayning of the said doctrine And in this sort is the former doctrine of the sacrifice of the Masse taught without any opposition at all not only by the former alledged Fathers but by many others or rather all othors for breuiuy heare omitted Now in this Case M. Vice-Chancelour we Catholicks do hould that such their doctryne so ioyntly by the Fathers taught without any contradiction is most agreable to Gods word For seing the Fathers of the Primatiue Church were in those dayes the cheife Pastours of Christs Church Yf they should ioyntly â—rreâ— in fayth then would it follow that the whole Visible Church of God should erre an assertion most repugnant to the promisse of our Sauiour Super hanc petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam Et portae Inferi non praualebant aduersus eam and to that honerable title giuen to the Church by the Apostle styling it columna firmamentum veritatis Now what reuerence and respect we are to giue to the Primatiue Church and how we are to conceaue of the authority of it I will for the closure of this passage referre you M. Vice-Chancelour to the sentences of your own Brethreh being most learned and remarkable Protestants from whose iudgment therefore herein you cannot without great branch of modesty decline First then we find Kempnitius thus to aduance the authority of the Primatiue Church We doubt not but that the Primatiue Church receaued from the Apostles Apostolicall Men not only the text of the Scripture but also the right and natiue sense thereof The confession of Bohemia thus magnifyeth the same The auncient Church is the true and best Mistres of Posterity and going before leadeth vs the way Finally D. Iewell is no lesse sparing in his prayses heereof saying The Primatiue Church which was vnder the Apostles and Martyrs hath e 〈…〉 r a been accounted the purest of all others without exception Such transcendency of speeches you see your owne more sober and learned Brethren are not afrayd to ascrybe to the Fathers of those primatiue tymes L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Michaas I grant you haue spoken fully in defence of your owne state and of the seuerall offices thereof practized by you Priests And though I will not say like to Agrippa h A little you haue persuaded me to become a Catholicke yet I must ingenuously acknowledge I neuer heard a cause of this Nature with stronger better arguments defended Yet for the more perfect balanâ—â—g and weighing the force of your authorityes my selfe not being conuersant in the written Monuments of the auncient Fathers I must remit this poynt to the more mature disquisition of our learned Deuins MICHAEAS Though your Lordship will not apply to your selfe the fore-said words of Agrippa yet I will make bould to reply to you such is my charitable wishing of your chiefest good in the phraze of S. Paul to Agrippa I wish to God both in little much that your L. were such as I am except this my wat of liberty But my worthy Lord. Here now begmneth the Tragedy of the disconsolate and mournefull state of Priests and Catholicks in this Country You haue heard my L. of the Antiquity of Priesthood of the like antiquity of the Sacrament of Confession and Pennance and lsstly of the antiquity of the most holy sacrifice of the Masse And yet notwithstanding all this it is decreed as your L. well knowes by the pennall lawes of this Country that Priesthood shal be Treason the releiuing of any one such Priest death to the Releiuer Confession of our sinns to a Priest and absolution of them reputed to be in the Penitent a renouncing of his Loyalty and the hearing of Masse attended on with a great fine of siluer And thus by these means euery good Priest and Catholicke are at the first sight become Statute traytours And indeed such is the case heere that neither Priest nor Catholicke can with safety of conscience giue any yeelding obedience and satisfaction to the Magistrate touching those lawes since here not to offend were to offend Obedire oportet Dee magis quam hominibus And touching my selfe and other Priests in particular your L. is to take notice that not speaking of our Blessed Sauiour who was the first Priest nor of his Apostles succeeding him therein most of the auncient Fathers were Priests enioying the same Priesthood practizing the same function in hearing of Confessions absoluing the Penitents saying of Masse which the meanest Priest of England at this day doth Therefore your Lordship may truly suppose That before you at this present stand arraigned only for being Priests exercizing that their function S. Austin S. Ambrose S. Ierome S Cyprian S. Athanasius S. Chrysostome S. Ignatius and many more of those primatiue blessed Doctours What I am they were I stand but here as their Image and they are personated in me Neither can you impleade or condemne me but that your sentence must through my sides wound them so indisâ—oluble an vnion there is betweene their stares myne no other difference betwene vs but difference of tymes But my good Lord. To passe on further to the despicable detected state of Lay Catholicks a theame not vnseasonable at these tymes I will not insist in particularizing the pennall statuts decreed agaynst them Neuerthelesle my tongue vnder your L. licence can hardly pretermit one point in silence Among then so many Calamityes and vexations wherewith on eich syde they stand plunged Not any one pressure is more insufferable to them or more opprobâ—â—ous in the eares of strangers who are ready to trumpet forth the same to the irreparable dishonour of this noble Nation otherwise famous throughout all Christendome Then to obserue the houses of Catholicks to lye open to the search of the Common base Pusuâ—uants Who vnder colour of looking for a Priest do enter their houses at most vnseasonable tymes euen by force And there opening their Trunks Chests perusing their Euidences of their Estats taking the Maysters of the houses bound in great sommes of money for their after appearance in Courts of Iustice and violently breaking downe what may seeme to withstand their present furye do by strong hand cary away any gold siluer Iewells Plate or any other portable thing of worth And all this vnder the pretext of them being forfeyted through Recusancy And the least resistance agaynst these men here made is punished as an Act of Disloyalty Neither are any English Catholicks the Nobility excepted free from these Indignityes the dead pittylesse law herein promiscuously taking hold of all without difference Now my Honorable Lord Is it not a thing deseruing astonishment