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A18003 A discourse, concerning two diuine positions The first [ef]fectually concluding, that the soules of the faithfull fathers, deceased before Christ, went immediately to heauen. The second sufficientlye setting foorth vnto vs Christians, what we are to conceiue, touching the descension of our Sauiour Christ into hell: publiquely disputed at a commencement in Cambridge, anno Domini 1552. Purposely written at the first by way of a confutation, against a booke of Richard Smith of Oxford, D. of Diuinity, entitled a Refutation, imprinted 1562, & published against Iohn Caluin, & C. Carlile: the title wherof appeareth in ye 17. page. And now first published by the said Christopher Carlile, 1582. Carlile, Christopher, d. 1588? 1582 (1582) STC 4654; ESTC S107537 141,619 356

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L●… of Noac before the Deluge w●… figure of the preachiuge of Ch●… and of his Disciples vnto the of the worlde callinge sinne●… Repentaunce least y ● they sh●… perishe in the finall iudgment And here is an Argument 〈◊〉 lesser a Minore ad Mains I●… called them to Repentaunce much ●…ore will he call others He prea●…ed to them that were in pryson 〈◊〉 meane to them that were tyed ●…ith the custome of synning which ●…as in the tyme of Noac when as ●…ll fleshe had corrupted his waye Gen. 6. hee came in Spirite and ●…reached by Noac whome hee had ●…nspyred to make the Arke and ●…reach Repentaunce and although ●…hat y ● Humanity of CHRIST was not as yet notwithstanding ●…is Substaunce his Deity and Godhead was euer Iesus Christe yesterday to daye and he foreuer Thus muche Lyra and more to y ● ●…me purpose What pryson was this that they were in Were they inclosed in stone walles Were they in some ●…ongeon Lyra callethe this prison the custome of synninge for they saythe hee were tyed as it were withe the gyues or manicles or theynes of iniquity Notw tstandīg a Prison is taken in all Tongue by a Metaphor for the Body whe●… in were inclosed these disobedie●… Spirites obstinate to bee refo●…med desperate to be reduced a●… so malitious and stubborne th●… Noac coulde neyther by his lenity reclayme them neither by seuerit correct them nether did they estem●… what hee preached but 〈◊〉 him and called him an old ●…oting foole sayng what had he to do with them what cared they for his pre●…chinge So is Babilon meaning Rome called a Pryson of impu●… Spirites This Pryson maye bee taken 〈◊〉 Synne as the Shadowe of Death is for darke and wilfull ignorance So Esaye in the twenty foure chapter and seauenth verse prophecieth that CHRIST shoulde delyu●… Prisoners out of Prison where is also the same woorde in Hebrue Chele and in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and in Peter also ye may call these ●…ngracious gyants such as were in ●…e prisō of sinne or in the pryson 〈◊〉 their Bodyes And Dauid dothe 〈◊〉 vse it in these words as the great ●…ible translateth Bringe my soule ●…ute of Prison Augustine among other expositi●…ns saythe that Dauid desyred god 〈◊〉 take his soule out of his Bodye ●…otwithstanding Augustine being ●…noraunt in the Hebrue Tongue ●…auerethe lyke an Academicall ●…claring y e text vncertainly by con ●…ctures For Dauid flyinge from Saule ●…d lyinge in the Caue Odolla de●…reth God to deliuer him saufe out 〈◊〉 that Caue wherin he was inclo●…ed as in a Prison ●…nd there is Nephes whiche they ●…anslate the Soule taken for the Bodye and the Caue for the Pry●…on Bede therefore readeth this Texte in this sorte That he preached to the spirits that were in their fleshe as thoughe it were written 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of this diuersity Hugo Cardinal Thomas Aquine and Gagne withe Dionisius Carthusianus make mention who expound this place as I do●… thoughe they were Schoolemen and in the Barbarous tyme. So dothe Augustine in his 99. Ep. to Euodius Accolampadius alleadgethe ●… place of Fsay as though that Christ wente to Hell to deliuer vs from Hell Did not he all that vpō thē Crosse was not his passion sufficient was his deathe an vnperfect deathe 〈◊〉 not he reconcile vs to his father 〈◊〉 asswaged his Wrathe ouerca●… Sathan and Hell BEZA who fiue yeares after that I had expounded this place in a booke entituled that CHRIST neuer came in Hell written in L●…ten vpon the first of Peter 3. Chap. and 19. verse takethe this Pryson for hell As Sathan is said to be put in prison whiche sense doth not impugne mine assertion notw estandig it is not so probable For Peter speaketh of them that liued Beza of them that were dead Peter of them of NOACS dayes to whome hée preached Beza of them that were in hell to whome NOAC did not preache Peter and Moses meane of them to whō of his infinite mercy hée gaue 120. Yeares to repente BEZA of them that were in hell is there any repentance in hell any confession of a mans faulte but here were gyuen an 120. yeares to repent If BEZA his opinyon please any man better then mine lett him folowe it who Conspirethe withe me agaynste them that alleadge this place for Christes preachinge in hell You saye that Christ fetched out onely the obedyent and faithfull these were disobedyent vnfaithfull ergo by your owne iudgement he went not thether for their cause if not for their cause then may you be ashamed to aliedge this place for that purpose How coulde he preach or fetch out Abraham Isaac and Iacob with the rest when as they were long after the floud and these before the floud They were Godly men the other desperate they were not in hell the othere were there without redemtion Peter saith that it was the spirite of Christ y e preached to the obstinate and that in the time of Noac before hée toke mans nature vpon him The papistes say that it was soule of CHRIST Howe coulde his Soule preachē before it was Before hée was man before hée was created and ioyned to the body That whiche was not in the tyme of NOAC coulde not preache in the time of NOAC The Soule of CHRIST was not in the tyme of NOAC wherefore it coulde not preache in the tyme of Noac you say that it was the Soule of Christe that preached in hell Peter doth not meane of the Soule of CHRIST but of his Spirite of his diuine nature which is GOD equall with the Father and the Sonne Is not their ignorance intollerable that doo not sée that Peter speakethe not one worde of y e soule of Christ but of his God head Is it credible that Christ did onely preache in hell to them that were desperate in the dayes of NOAC and not to others aswell were there none desperate but they of NOACS dayes was not Cain before them desperate and Esau after the floud Peter saith that this Spirite of CHRIST preached to th●… disobedient of Noacs tyme The papistes say that hee preached to all in generall Peter to the disobedient and Desperate they to the obediente and faithfull Peter to the Oyantes they to the Patriarches Peter to them of NOACS dayes they to all the iust before Christ. Peter when the Arke was in Preparinge they when Christes bodye laye in the graue Peter where there were Eyght persones saued and the rest drowned they where there were an innumerable companye and that in Hell Peter where there was amendement looked for they where there was none amendement for in Hell is no redemption Peter in earth they in Hell Purgatorye and Lymbus Where the Arke was made ther●… preached this Spirite of Christ. The Arke was
in an other lyfe whiche when Cayne hearde hee slewe him forthwyth Ambrose also doth affirme that GOD hearethe the deade because they lyue wyth hym and doe reste in hys Pallaice hee callethe Abell the Prince Capitaine and way leader of Christian men And shall we saye then that the captaine is in worser state then y e soldiour the prince in worser case then the subiect so dothe Ambrose call him And to y e same effect doth it tende which is written in the 6. chapiter of the Reuelat. wheras the soules lying vnder the aulter apparayled in white garments saye Olorde holy and iuste how longe wilte thon tarry to auenge our bloud Amonge whom was Habel desiring the resurrection And so was Enoch as affirmeth Salomon in the booke of wisdome the 4. chapter saying these wordes Enoch because he pleased god was caried into paradise an example of good life vnto the worldes to come When he pleased god he was beloued and for that he liued amonge the wicked he was rapt vp least he shuld by their peruersity haue bene seduced Ther are in y e same place many goodly sentences which declare y ● faithful after their death furth with to receyue felicitye and the wicked or vnfaithfull misery Paule also proueth y e same Enoch saithe he was translated or taken vp from deathe to life or dyed not at all for before his translation it is written of him that he pleased god whiche for to do without faithe is impossible Thus you must nedes beleue you that will go vnto god that thee is a god that doth recōpense the faithfull and suche as loue him Wherfore it is euident that Enoch ascended into heauen Iosephus affirmeth the same Yet I know that there are some of the hebrue Doctors as Esra who taketh his translation from deathe for his deathe onely and not for any assumption howbeit the hebrue worde signifiethe not onely to take away by deathe but also to receiue vnto himselfe as god did Enoch Pselly a gréeke author affirmeth that he did flye vp into a heauenly place So is there a great nomber which affirme that he went into Abrahams bosome and into the same place whether Christ his body went Isodorus saythe that he was the 7. from Adam because that all men in the beginninge of the 7. thowsande yeare should enioye the same felicity which he did then And all the Latins in a manner saye that he went into heauen least it should haue bene thought that the fathers soules should haue bene in hell or detayned in lasye limbus Chrisostome Ephrem with other of the gréekes affirme that he is in a fortunate place Thus far of Enoch And the same I do iudge of Enos Seth Lamech Noac Sem and all the rest of the faythfull fathers whose faythe conuayed thē vp into immortallity Nowe let vs heare and mark what god sayth vnto Abraham Thou shalt sayth god go vnto thine elders and people quietly and be buried in a florishing●… age which is as muche to say when thou art dead thy soule shall spedily ascende into heauen among thine elders where it shall lyue in the abundance of ioyes Wherefore they who contend and affirme that there is no place in y e bookes of Moyses whereby the immortalitye of the soule can be proued are greatly to be blamed for it is euident of this place that the soul went vnto ioy for he said whē thou shalt dye and go vnto thin●… elders First y ● soules go vnto their elders whiche are all the faithfull Fathers and then is the bodye buryed If you should vnderstand yt of his sepulcher which is at Hebrō where he was buried in the double caue y ● ys false for ther was none of his elders buryed nor none of his familiars his wyfe Sara onely excepted thē he should haue sayd y ● shalt go vnto thy wife Sara not to thy elders if you vnderstād it of his ●…arnal fathers Thara Nachor they moste abhominable Idolatoures wherfore he ment not vnto them then must he meane those faithful men before recited who exercised the same fayth y ● hee did beleued in the same Christ. For by faythe he possessed Cananye subdued tyrantes offred Isaac and obteyned euerlasting felicitie for faith bringeth saluation as Prodromus saith in these verses which I translated out of the greeke tounge O holye faith sound perfect and pure Which of saluation doest man assure Or thus O constant faith pure and not fained Whereby euerlasting life is ob tayned God made first a Couenaunt with Adam promisinge the Seede that should tread downe the Serpentes head v●…to Noat he promised quietnes with the Rainbowe vnto Abraham hee promised the Lande of Canaan and immortalitye none of these did doubt of any thing but did beleeue the promiser Paul by their example perswded men to beleeue and thereby to obteine euerlasting lyfe And if we that are their Children doe hope by fayth to haue the fruition of God his presence how vnkynde are wee to depriue our fathers therof including them in the darke dungeon of Hell or Limbus spoylinge theym of all Ioye and Glorie Abraham is called in the Scriptures the father of all the faithful and was he then in woorse state then his children When hee had lyued 175. yeres hee departed vnto his Elders and people that is as Caietanus affir●…eth into the sweete and pleasant ●…asie of felicitye which God hath ●…repared for his elect from the beginninge hee is gathered vnto his ●…athers This Metaphor is thus ●…o bee applied that as the husband ●…an doth gather his corne into his Barne so God gathreth his faithfull seruantes into his heauenly habitation as Christ doth witnes saing that the chaffe which is the wickedshalbe burned but the corn which are his faithfull he will laye or gether it into his barne which is heauen He died saith the scripture in a pleasante age such an age such a reward soloweth such a death such a life such labor such ioyes The interlyned glose with the ordinary Strabus and also Angustine place Abraham sometime amonge the angels in y e mount Sion in the citty of the liuing God in the celestiall Ierusalem amonge the cōpany of th●… innumerable augels in the congregation of y e first born sonnes which are written in heauen sometime 〈◊〉 God the Iudge of all men among the spirites of perfect men and 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ the mediator of th●… newe testament Ambrose sayth 〈◊〉 Caietanus that this phrase of th●… gethering to his elderes can in n●… wise be referred vnto the body but vnto the soule The like is verified of Moses and Aron in Deut. 32. He that beleued as Abraham did and like wyse liued as he liued can inhabyte none other place then very heauen this city this countrye this kingdome and this inheritance is promised and ys proper and common
and patron our welb●… ued Belial a moste skilfull 〈◊〉 experte lawyer he may be a Iu●… for his experience in wayghty 〈◊〉 and an vmpier for his 〈◊〉 dome an orator in pleadinge and ●…n arbiter in difficulte cases hee ●…anne wreste the texte he canne ●…nstrue and expound the canons ●…e canne depraue the truthe of the Gospell hee canne alleadge the Canon Lawe hee passethe all ●…he Ciuilians and canonistes hee ●…nne make of whyte blacke and 〈◊〉 blacke whyte hee ys an odde ●…ellowe indeede and one that ys ●…oste fit for our purpose Then ●…ame they into the consistorye Sa●…mon is Iudge Beliall was present ●…ythe hys Notarye and wytnes a●…ainste Christe who had done an ●…aynous robbery in hell Daniell ●…he notary and Secretary to kinge Salomon maketh for Belial a pub●…que instrumente Salomon was ●…udge betwene Beliall proctor of ●…ell of the one partye and Azaell swyft poste or messinger of the o●…her party Iesus was brought in he ●…ppointed for his proctor and lawyer Moses Moses petit terminū ad respondēdu●… There Belial alleadged the canō la●… the decrees decretals extrauag●… Bartholus Baldus Accursius Li●… wood Cantiuncule gloses an●… suche like Belial commencethe 〈◊〉 libell against Iesus Moses excepte●… againste the libell dilatorye Mose putteth in 12 positions to proue tha●… Iesus did very well in spoyling hell●… Moses bringeth 9 wytnesses Ada●… Abraham Isaac Iacob Dauid Ioh●… Baptist Aristotle Virgil and Y p●… cras so he tearmeth Hippocrates Belial replyethe salua reuerentia what auaylethe the testimonye o●… Adam who was a rebell as is manifeste to the whole worlde sayth●… Belial or of Abraham that kep●… openly cōcubines or of Isaac a lia●… and periured man of deceiptfu●… Iacob a thefe robber of his brother Vt ff de Ani. L. non potes o●… Dauid the murtherer and adulterer of Uirgill that was deceyued with●… womē hāged in a basket ouer th●… walles for a Spectacle of Ipocras that killed his nephew of Aristotle who frandulētly burst vp the armary of Salomon and deceiptfully appropriated to him his wisdome and philosophy I haue no exception against Iohn Baptist who was so holy mary one wytnes is no wytnes vt de test li. 1. 13. I cease to tell howe many parliaments the deuels kept and what prodigious pagents as ye may reade an infinite number of such sigular good stuffe in the scholasticall writers of these last fiue hudrethe yeares Carlil Iames de Theranio affirmethe that they of Limbus were in trouble in necessity in darkenes in the shadowe of deathe and in chaynes and giues whiche Christ burst you denye that they were in any trouble but this fable requireth no aunswere Smith Chrisostome saythe that ●…e brake the brasen gates and barrs of yron Carlil Esaye meaned that there should nothinge withstand Cyrus his power should be so greate his fortune so good his successe so happy and his iorney so prosperous no not thoughe the gates of the citties whiche hee should besiege were of brasse and their barres of yron Hee inuaded hee fetched out their treasure he wan Babilon he toke ryche Cresus prisoner Esay did ueuer imagine suche a fable Smith I haue a place in Dauid wher Dauid saythe that GOD had deliuered him oute of the nethermoste hell Carlil Was Dauid when hee wrote this deade or aliue I●… deade he could not wryte neither come there anye writinges oute of hell for they lacke ynke and paper ynke for that there ys no moisture but burninge bathes and boylinge bryinstone neyther ys there anye paper for yt would be consumed withe fyre If he lyued as he did indeed howe could he be in hell Is earthe hell Axe there bodyes in hell Did hee make this psalme in hell Did hee call out of hel or out of Palestina Do not you make 4. hels and now ye make but two Moreouer you M. Smithe affyrme that Christe wente to the vppermoste hell and yet here you saye that hee wente to the nethermoste hell What constancy is in your exposition what coherence in your religion what certainty in your faction and secte what agremente in your doctrine You say that he went to purgatory Reinerus denieth that he went thither at all Smith Wee all agree that Christe went to hell that hee haried hell that he fetched out the fathers Abraham Isaac Iacob the patriarkes and prophets that he bound Sathan and terrified the reste and put them to flighte Did not the holye fathers then crye De profundis clamaui who were they that cryed was it not the chur che not the lyuinge churche vppon earthe but the Churche that was in Limbus Carlil You folow the poore Scholers of the Uniuersitye who were wonte in the olde tyme to begge with De profundis for all christian soules Smith We vnderstande this of Purgatorie Carlil What was there any Purgatorie in Dauids dayes It was but founde out of late and concluded vpon in the councell of Ferrara in the yere of Christe 1439. or there about notwithstanding so slenderlye that the Grekes when they came home denied it Polidore writethe that Odilo the Moncke found it out in the mounte Aethna in Sicilia in the yeare of Christ 1200. Ye haue no Scr●…re to proue it neither is your place of the Machabes whiche you alledge for that purpose in the Hebrue but put in by some purgatory patrone Now if there bee no purgatory as wee are able to proue no third place out of this lyfe no dungeon of expiation neither after death any cōfessyon of a mans offences any remission neither hope nor fayth for they end with death neither any repenting or expectatiō of felicity thē where is your hellish Church your Limbian Sinagogue and your pur gatorie Prelates Doe they saye Masses satisfactory in Purgatorye haue they any Trentalles Obites Sacrifice or anye other satisfactiō This psalme was made when Dauid was in greate daunger of Saul and of his ennemies or rather as Lyra sayth in the person of the Israelytes who were in their captiui tye at Babilō drowned as it were in a diepe dungeon Or when hee was in an anguishe of Conscience after the death of Vrias Psalm 51. Augustine vnderstandeth this psalme of euery man that is in this mortall lyfe who is encombred w e anye vyce or misfortune and therfore muste ca●… and cry for helpe and mercie Smith I could bring many mo places out of the Psalmes Carlile Eyther the Argumente and meaninge of the Psalme shall confute you or els those places whiche I haue alleaged after for the true vnderstandinge of Sheol Nephes Smith Wise men and the best learned alledge the 6. of Hoseas for th●… going of Christe to hell After tw●… dayes sayeth he wil hee reuiue vs th●… thirde day hee wil raise vs vp and wee shal lyue in his sight Thus far Hoseas wordes Here you see
say Let vs swallow vp the innocent like a graue euē whole as those that goe downe into the pit The latter parte of this verse declareth what the first is And it is the manner of Dauid and Salomon to amplifye euery verse in manner on such sorte that either the former part declareth the latter or the latter the former This considered ye shall easely vnderstande one by the other An harlottes feete leade to death and her steppes to the graue A whoores house saieth Salomon is the way to the graue which goeth downe to the chambers of de●…the That which he calleth the chambers of death in the latter parte in the former he calleth the graue Now by Salomon the graue is the chambers of death The same is in other woordes in the second chapter Her house saith Salomon tendeth to death and her pathes vn●…o the deade A whore consumeth nature wasteth the bodie drieth the bones driueth to consumption quencheth naturall heate infecteth man with pockes leprosye and other diseases and by that meanes bringeth him to deathes doore to the earth to his graue Sheol and Abadon are taken for the graue Prou. 27. verse 21. so they are Psal. 88. verse 11. as I haue noted before Ye shall finde Sheol in Prou. 9. 18. Prou 〈◊〉 11. and Pro. 23. verse 14. Smite the child●… saythe Salomon and thou shalt deliuer him from Sheol from destruction●… from hanging and as the 72. Interpretors saye from death so they translate Sheol 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a morte from death miserye and misfortune The graue saith Salomon is neuer satisfied and therefore the graue Sheol hath his name of Shaal to desire because that the graue saith nener ho make a graue and it refuseth not it consumeth the body And here the greatest Bible is constrayned to translate Sheol the graue Rabby Immanuel Pagnine Sheol is some sodayne death which leadeth to the graue The Precher saith that there is nether wysdome worke inuention or knowledge in the graue And before in the third verse where he saith that they go to the deade y ● olde translation hath ad inferos the 72. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whereof it is euident that Sheol is alwayes applied to y e bodye which is here here in misery or after this life laid in the graue and apertayneth only to the body It is in Salomon that loue is as stronge as deathe and gelousie as cruell as the graue The Geneua Bible translateth it so Likewise Munster diuerse others Here is death put in the former parte of the verse and the graue in the latter signifiyng all one thinge in effecte Esaye prophecieth that there shall so manye people dye of hunger and by other kindes of death as sweate and plague that the graue muste make her wider to receiue them nether doth it appeare by the text that these whiche wente to Sheol into their graue were dampned Ergo they went not to hell neither speaketh hee here of their soules but of their bodyes so that Sheol is not hell but the graue Pagnine in Racab Esaye inueighing against Nabucodonoser kinge of Babylon maketh by a figure called prosopopaeia by an hyperbole the deade to speake the deade to bid him welcome the dead to triumphe ouer him and to reioyce at his deathe and comming For saith the texte the graue yeldeth vp her dead euen kinges and princes to salute him and to save that hee was come downe vnto the ground and graue as they were and that the wormes are with him and about him This verse doth plainly declare as Munster translateth and Geneua Bible thoughe the said Geneua Bible translateth Sheol Hell in the 9. verse without cause That Nabucodonoser was not in hell nor they that saluted him but in the graue whiche the prophet maketh to speake with her dead Where there were wormes there were these and there was Nabucodonoser but in Hell there are no materiall wormes but in the graue Ergo neither they nor Nabucodonoser were in Hell And they say in the 15. verse that he shall or rather is broughte downe to the graue to the sides of the pitte which words declare that Sheol is the graue and nothing els but a pit or ditche The translators of y ● greatest Bible though wresting Sheol before and in other places are compelled and as it appeareth perswaded to translate it the graue in the 19. ver or els they must say that his deade ●…arkasse was caste out of Hell wheras I think ther are no bodies nor shal be till the last day Besides all this was it like y ● Nabucodonoser was in hell who was elected who gaue thanks to god w t pure affection praysed him with earnest mind magnified him with voice honored him y ● liueth for euer whose power is incomprehensible whose kingdome eternall whose workes are all truth whose waies are iudgement who pulleth downe the pompe and pride of the presumptu●… ous I haue noted more vpon Esay 14. In the same sense Sheol is pu●… in Abacuk 2. verse 5. Ioyned with deathe as it is diuers times wher●… I haue noted more Rabby Dauid and Pagnine in Rachab and Munster calleth it death●… and sepulcher Ezechias said that he shoulde go to the gates of the gra●… which he called in the 17. 18. verses the pit of corruption for saythe he in the graue and deathe ne man can praise the Lord. The graue and deathe are ioyne●… likewise in 28. of Esay verse 15. and Munster expoundeth them so vpon Esay 38. Porta inferorum inquit Zuinglius est periphrasis morie●…di The gates of the graue which they translate the gates of hell is a circumlocution of dying and death And in like maner Oecolampadius handleth this place of the 38. of Esaye verse 10. By an allegory of beautifull trees Ezechiel prophecied against Pharao ●…inge of Egypte sayinge that if the ●…inge of Assiria was not able to ●…esiste the Babylonians how much ●…sse he The like sentence is in Esaye 14. wher Nabucodonoser was brought ●…o his graue as here Pharao and y ● ●…inge of Assur and the graue is defined in Ezechiel 31. 14. 15. 16 and 18. to be a pit and place in the earthe where the bodyes do slepe And in Ezechiel 32. 18. 19. 21. and in y ● saide 21. verse and in the 27. verse is Sheol and in the 22. verse 23. 24. 25. and 26. is Chebarim graues and in the 29. and 30. verses is Bor a pit so that Sheol Cheber and Bor are all one And in the 2●… and 26. verses of the said 32. chapter of Ezechiel he calleth the lande of the liuing this life and the graue the Lande and the earthe whether they wente with theyr weapons where the deade slepe where the bodyes rest without senses And therefore the church●… yard is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉