last iudgement and yet here he findeth no third sort or place for them in the meane time no more then in the other But he was not very constant herein For in his 21 booke of the City of God cap 26. he saieth if in this meane time betwixt death the iudgemēt the souls of the departed be saied to suffer such a fire or there onely or there and here or therefore here and not there a fire he saieth of transitory tribulation burning vp their worldly smaller faultes I reproue it not because perhaps it is true de fide operibus cap. 14. hee saieth likewise whither in this life onely men suffer these thinges or after this life such iudgements doe follow them as I thinke saieth he this sence of Paul is not against the trueth namely to vnderstand him of the fire of tribulation or triall And in his Enchiridion cap. 68. he saieth that the fire that the Apostle speaketh of 1. Cor. 3. is the fire of tribulation through which both kinde of builders there spokē of must passe and tha such a thing may be after this life it is not incredible whither it be so or no it may be a questiō cap. 69. The like he hath of the 8 questions of Dulcitius in his answere to the first of them wherein it appeareth that he was very vncertaine whither there were or no any such fire of tribulation after this life any where before the last iudgement to purge men of some kinde of sinnes but what these sinnes were that staied men from going to heauen straight vpon their death whereof after they might get some releife and ease he saieth it was harde to finde and perillous to define and as for his owne part he confesseth that though to that time he had laboured to finde out what they were yet he could not lib. 21. de ciuit Dei Cap. 27. And how dangerous it was and is to fall into such doubts we may see in him For in the 24 Chapter of the same booke it appeareth that vpon this supposition that there might bee some such purging fire as he somtimes doubted of he moueth this sound question whither they shall bee saued whom the daie of iudgement shall finde vnpurged with this fire which yet might haue beene purged with it if it had not come so soone and he resolueth that with an other doubtful imagination that they suffering for a time some pains shal haue mercy as he thought not be condemned to hel and in this saied 20 booke of the City of God he hath an opinion cap. 25. that in the last iudgement before sentence bee pronounced some shall passe thorow purging paines And yet in the third question to Dulcitius he determineth it as a flat trueth to be beleeued that in the last iudgement there shall be no delay but immediatly vpon the second comming of Christ it shall be as we are taught Matth. 25. Hereby we see how wattering and inconstant euen famous learned men become when they once wander without the light of the word after the discourses and reasonings of the wit of man How much better had it bene for Augustin in these questions to remember the rule and to haue followed that which he gaue others in such cases as I shewed before in the cōclusion of the former point out of his second booke de pecca meritis remiss Cap. 36. Yet in none of these places or else where can I finde that he once dreamed of such a purgatory fire as the papists teach which should be materiall and of the same nature that the fire of hell is saue onely that it is not eternal as that Wherefore I conclude of him as of Origen these things considered the arguments are like to be very doughty and strong that are brought from any mention that Augustine maketh of purgation after this life either to proue popish purgatory or praier to relieue the soules of them that bee there And euen as I haue saied of these two so might I likewise of most of the ancient fathers from whence they would seeme at any time to fetch countenance for this their purpose they are so variable wauering and inconstant in their speeches most of them about this matter but this I hope is and will be sufficient to proue the weakenesse of Albins arguments from these two to iustifie his praying for the dead because these two in some of the places quoted by him when he can get them to come no nearer the point haue in some sort spoken of purging of men after this life in paines Now therefore likewise I am to shew how weake there arguments be drawen frō some mention found in some of the fathers of some kinde of remembring the dead in praiers Which easily may be conceiued if we vnderstād that first there may be an honourable mētion or remēbrāce made of those that are dead in the Lord without any praying for them at al to shew our thankefulnes to God for the good exāple they left vs both of liuing holily dying Christianly the better to prouoke others by so remēbring of thē to imitate their good example and lastly so to nourish in our selues the hope of a ioiful resurrection and to testifie our loue and Christian affection towardes them so departed which questionles was all that was done a long time at the keeping of the memories of their deathes or at anie time else and of this very well may both Tertullian and Cyprian be vnderstoode in the places here quoted by Albin as I will shewe anon From such a fashion of mentioning the deade in our prayers euery simple man may see popish praying for them hath no countenance at all Secondly we ought to be aduertised that forasmuch as they that are dead in the Lord haue not yet their consummation nor shall not before the last day that in that respect also for such of whom we fully are perswaded that they so died that they haue their part in the promisse thereof praiers may be made by the godly aliue very lawfully And therefore thus we graunt the ancient fathers might pray for the dead and thus we our selues as appeareth here in England by the forme of praiers appointed to be vsed at the buriall of the dead refuse not to pray that we with those brethrē and sisters of ours that depart hence in the Lord may haue our perfect consummation and blisse at the last day in the generall resurrection And yet of praiers thus made for such onely by them or vs neither popish praying for the dead nor purgatory haue any ground Lastly it is euident that many of the ancient fathers of abūdāce of loue towards their frendes departed whose soules they were fully perswaded were in rest and in ioy and felicity with the Lord in heauen as they shew euen in the very places when their praiers for them are set downe prayed yet vnto God for them Thus praied Nazianzē for his
bloud And so far are they of yet in this great light to be ashamed of murdring treacherously Christian Princes whom otherwise they cannot frame to their fancies that of very late yeares by a most wicked varlet whom they had persuaded that therein he should doe a meritorious deede they so dispatched the noble Prince of Orenge and since by the like persuasions haue sought by one Parrie and others to effect the like against our soueraigne whom the Lorde for his Christes sake so long preserue that she may see either the happy conuersion or effectuall confusion of all her enemies Now these thinges considered and they beeing most true as from point to point they are testified by your owne Cronicles if there had beene any shame in you you would neuer haue gone about as you haue to charge vs with your surmised intention to displace ciuill magistrates Whereas you would seeme to strengthen this your malicious accusation in that we haue displaced some of your Popish Bishops Priestes Monkes and Friers and refuse obedience and submission to your Popes you must vnderstand that herein you commit two great and foule faults the first is that you stretch the places here quoted by you which teach indeed only obedience and submission to ciuill magistrates and to lawfull ecclesiasticall persons in the Lorde as though therein and thereby God had aswell tied and bound al persons to obedience and subiection to your vnlawfull and Antichristian Prelates and cleargie yea and that in such strict maner as though it were vnlawfull how bad and wicked soeuer they and their commandemēts be either to refuse to obey them or to speake any hard word against them your second fault is that you take it that there is no difference to be put betwixt your ecclesiasticall Prelacies and the higher powers that the scriptures in these places teach obedience and submission vnto whereas indeede there is as great differēce as there is betwixt heauen and earth and the ordinances of God and the vnlawfull deuises of man betwixt the higher powers there spoken for the higher powers that you plead so much for For the higher powers there spokē for be such as though sometimes for iust causes knowen vnto God they light in the hands of wicked and profane persons yet of themselues are the lawfull ordināces of God whereas the authority of your Popes of other your Romish Prelates whom we haue displaced and refuse to submit our selues vnto is vtterly vnlawful and not onely without warrant from the lord in his word but directly contrary to the same For whereas Rom. 12. Ephesiās 4. the spirit of God hath reckoned vp all the ecclesiastical officers which Christ the master of the house hath appointed for the ful and perfect ordering therof none of these of yours whō we haue displaced and refuse to obey are once remembred besides both contrary to Christ our sauiours expresse cōmandement Peters also Luk. 22.1 Pet. 5. they take vpon them as tyrannially as euer did any Princes of the nations Lordship ouer Gods inheritance therfore by their proceedings we finding them to be very antichristian both S. Pauls prophesie that Antichrist shall be consumed by the spirit of Gods mouth 2. Thess 2. and that flat commandement giuen vs from heauen Apoc. 18. to come out from Babylon to seperate our selues from her doe assure vs that lawfully wee may speake against them and their enormities and not only refuse submission vnto them but also to doe what we can to roote out such plants which our heauenly father neuer plāted out of the earth Wherefore fondly doe you go about to teach out of the Prophet Ieremy that as the Iewes were taught submission and obedience to Nabuchadnezzar so we should learne thereby to chamber our tongues against your Pope and other Prelates also quietly to submit our selues vnto them For though he were a wicked tyrant yet his authority it selfe was lawfull and the ordinance of God and he came vnto his authority ouer the Iewes by force of armes conquest which is an ordinary way that God vseth to inuest Kings and Emperours with such ciuill authority ouer nations and cuntries by whereas the very authority it selfe of your Popes and other Prelates howsouer you cōfidently and yet vntruly aduouch that S. Paul Rom. 13. is to bee vnderstoode aswell to haue spoken that which he there speaketh of them as of Kings other lawfull magistracies offices is as I haue proued vtterly vnlawful and the meanes whereby they haue come thereunto hath beene shameles wresting of the scriptures fraud deceit treachery maine force which all are abhominable steps for cleargy mē to attaine vnto their offices by neither would we if we had liued vnder the persecuting Emperours of Rome or vnder Nabuchadnezzar as you here insinuate haue refused to yeelde so far obedience and submission vnto them in all quietnes as we might not disobeying the Lorde to obey them and further neither the Iewes vnder the one nor the Christians vnder the other were bound which obedience and submission to your Popes Prelates will not serue your turne for you would haue it yeelded vnto them without limitation for otherwise they should not be obeyed wherein you would fainest haue thē obeyed And therefore in your Canon law dist 40. cap. Sipapa it is enacted that though your Popes should deale neuer so lewdly both in respect of themselues and in carying others by heaps vnto hell yet none must be so presumptuous as to aske them why they doe so Howbeit for the more full satisfying the Reader and clearing our selues of this your slanderous accusation of intending the displacing of ciuill magistrates for their wicked liues this further is the common and receaued doctrine amongst vs concerning that point that though Christian subiects may not disobey God to obey their wicked commandements yet they are rather patiently to suffer the penalties that they shal inflict vpon them for their chusing rather to obey God then them then to vse or to consent to the vsing of any forcible meanes to depose them And this our practise hath plentifully made to appeare to bee the common and receaued opinion in this case amongst vs. But whereas you would haue vs so humble and meeke by abusing and wresting Christes counsell giuen vs Mat. 11. as that we should obey Pilate Annas and Caiphas euen to the suffering of death without once opening our lippes to speake anie word of disgrace against them I see the onely marke you shoote at is that we should obey your Popes Prelates in whatsoeuer they commande vs or else that we should suffer them without once muting against them to make what hauocke of vs they list For though you would seeme to plead for our obedience submission to the ciuill magistrates yet plainely you bewray that so your Popes and Prelates might get this submission at our hands you haue the thing you shoote at and care for But
gentiles namely to Augustus Cesar which profes though they were granted to be of sufficient force to proue that the gentiles had thereby some knowledge of the cōming maner of cōming office of such a Messias yet they proue not but that it was notwithstāding a thing newe and not vnderstoode to most of thē neither doe they at all proue but that still the doctrine concerning the particuler person of that Messias namely that Iesus the sonne of the virgin Mary whom the Iewes crucified was he no other was a new doctrine both to Iew and gentile and therefore in that respect it was necessary for the Apostles for all these thinges to confirme that by miracle whereas now amongst vs that beare any waie the name of Christians that doctrine is not newe neither anie thing else that wee preach but to those to whom the ancient doctrine taught in the Scriptures is newe and therefore as yet there remaineth cause sufficient why the Apostles should worke miracles and not wee This also I cannot but tell you of that howsoeuer the Sybilles are reported to haue prophecied of Christ your comparison is verie odious when you saie they did it as fully and as plainelie as anie of the Prophets and that you wrong Augustine too too much in making your Reader beleeue that hee either in the place quoted by you or anie where else ioyneth with you in that malaperte comparison But these comparisons of yours argue the profanenesse of the spirite that directeth your pennes The XX. Chapter THVS you see that Iesus Christ was anounced among the Gentiles before the comming of the Apostles who notwithstanding this did not let to set forth the doctrine that they were sent to preach vvith manie notable miracles although they did not teach but that doctrine that was verie ancient And although that their doctrine vvas newe and vnknowen to the Gentiles yet you cannot alleadge that it vvas so a Yes it is evident that the true doctrine both of his person and office was new and strange vnto thē vnto the Iewes for they beeing studied and learned in Moses lawe they hearde nothing of the Apostles but had beene prophecied by the Prophets Doeth not Saint Paul saie at the beginning of his Epistle to the Romanes that hee was seperated to preach the Gospell the which God promised by the holie Scriptures * Act. 3. Saint Peter talking with the Iewes doeth giue them plainelie to vnderstande that his vvas no newe doctrine because that hee did preach Iesus Christ of vvhom Moses had prophecied long before saying thus * b Deut. 16. God shall raise a Prophet among your brethren b Deut. 18. you would saie you shall obey him as you doe me and hee that doeth refuse it shal be put to death Saint Peter saieth afterwarde All the Prophets that haue beene from Samuel vnto this time doe announce vnto you these daies that is to saie the doctrine that wee doe preach That that the Apostles did preach vnto the Iewes that is to wit the remission of their sinnes by the death and passion of Christ it was no newe thing for as * Act. 10. Saint Peter saied vnto Cornelius All the Prophets haue vvitnessed that those that beleeue in him shall obtaine remission of their sinnes for it had beene so prophecied by Esay c 53 you should haue saied cap. 55. vnto the people aboue eight hundreth yeares saying that hee had laied vpon his sonne all our iniquities as it doeth appeare in his booke in the vvhich he doeth shew himselfe more an Euangelist then a Prophet for there hee doeth vvrite the tormentes of our Sauiour euen as if hee had beene present at his passion Dauid likewise doeth talke of the like where hee doeth mention the extreame affliction of our Redeemer and of the Gall and Isope and the Vinager Daniel did not onelie discrie the death of our Sauiour but therewithall the verie time that he should come And to bee briefe all the Prophets haue announced vnto the Iewes that that the Apostles did preach vnto them Now if wee desire to knowe why this olde doctrine preached aswell to the Gentiles as to the Iewes by the Apostles was confirmed vvith manie miracles vvhich they did in the name of God vvho sent them the cause is this the Deuill had so obscured and hidden the trueth ouer all nations that superstitious Idolatrie had taken place in steede of the true seruice of God so that the poore Painims did not put their trust in one God but in a multitude of Gods And in like maner the true Religion giuen by God to the Israelites had beene troubled and almost cleane abolished by the traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees in the vvhich they did trust for the iustification and remission of their sinnes d And in your owne consciences you cannot but see we haue iust cause The like doe you report of vs and of your great curtesie yee are contente to match vs vvith the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous Paynims placing your selues in the degree of the pure Gospellers and the true children of God taking vpon you the succession of the Apostles and calling your congregation the true Catholicke and Apostolical Church This sounds notablie well but seeing that your cause is absolutely to reforme the Church as they did preaching the ancient doctrine of God as they did and dealing with superstitious Idolaters that cleaue more to the traditions of men thē vnto the pure word of God as the Iewes Seing then that our case is reported vnto the similitude of the Iewes and yours to the Apostles and Prophets how comes it to passe that you doe not as they did seeing that you are sent frō one master Why e Because our doctrine being the very same that theirs was their miracles serue sufficiently to confirme it to take away al excuse from them that will not beleeue it to the worldes ende doe ye not make your commission appeare by signes and miracles seeing that God hath euer done the like heretofore when he hath sent the like Commission to yours The XX. Chapter I haue shewed you my reason in the former Chapter why you must stay for all your premises from the conclusion that you beginne withall in this For howsoeuer some few of them thē heard in some sort that such a Messias either should come or was come yet the particuler person who that same was was first preached by the Angel Gabriel secondly by Zacharie and Elizabeth his wyfe Luke 1. before he was borne then by the Angels to the shepheards the day of his birth after by Simeon and Anna Iohn Baptist the Apostles of Christ and the rest as it followeth set downe in the story Luke 2. c. But you say yet further that though their doctrine concerning Iesus Christ the Messias was vnknowen to the Gentiles yet it was not so to the Iewes for the Apostles preached nothing but that which
hauing the grace that was inspired in him by the holie ghost at his baptisme so long he doeth not sinne vnto eternall death d Yea the Apostle to the great comfort of them that are once truely regenerat teacheth in these places that such by the power of that grace shall be so preserued that they shall neuer sin as the vnregeneraâ— do with their whole man vnto death for the generatioÌ„ of God that is to saie the grace receiued by this holy sacrament doeth so defend him that the Deuill cannot persecute him to death being not able to preuaile against him and as long as this good seede which is the word of God doeth dwell in him he cannot sinne and if he did sinne the seed would no loÌ„ger remain in him The holie ghost saith * Sap. 1. the wisemaÌ„ shall refuse the hypocrite and dissembler and shall depart from the vaine and crafty cogitations and therefore the grace of God and sinne can not dwell togither nor we ought not thinke S. Iohns wordes strange in that he saieth that he that is borne of God doeth not sinne for it is as much to say as that one can not serue two masters and that he that serueth God can not serue the Deuill For. S. Paul saieth * 1. Cor. 10. You cannot assist at the table of God and of the Deuill altogether for what communication is there betweene iustice and iniquity or betweene Iesus Christ and Belial And hee that doeth loue this world declareth himselfe an enemie vnto God And a little before he had saied he that doeth commit sinne is the sonne of the Deuill the which doeth not affirme that a sinner cannot be the sonne of God if he repent and doe penance but in the meane while a If this assertion be true â—â—en as often as the regenerate either actually sinneth or hath but a minde to sinne he is not the childe of God I would gladly know theÌ„ h w often the authour hath coÌ„tinued a moreâ—h the child of God togither or any man else he that is in actuall sinne or hath a minde to doe euill is as then not the sonne of God but the sonne of the Deuill The good tree doeth not beare ill fruite for although the fruit doe rot or perish vpon the tree that corruption doeth not proceede of the tree but of the wormes birdes or of some other kinde of vermine and therefore when they say that by the fruit we shall knowe the tree and by the workes the faith this ought to be vnderstood when the fruite doeth ripe in season and that it hath the naturall humour and property of the tree And in a man that he haue the influeÌ„ce of the true faith not otherwise for euen as the rotten fruit hanging vpon the tree doeth digresse nothing from the good stocke euen so the ill workes of vs that are Christians ought not to staine our holy and Catholique religion b Thus we also answere the obiection that you make against our religion froÌ„ the lewd liues that you see in some which seeme to be of our profession It is a good defence for you you thinke why should you not graunt â— then so to be to vs For the corruption of our ill fruites coÌ„meth of our selues and not of our religion the which doeth defende vs from doing that we doe I meane to sweare to blaspheme to commit adulterie to doe anie man wrong or to offend God anie waie He that doeth desire then by the fruit to know whither the tree of our Religion bee good hee ought not to bende his eies to looke vpon the rotten fruit as if that were sufficient to disproue the goodnesse of the tree but let him looke vpon the good fruites c You shall finde that you farre oueâ—shot your se fe in your reckoning when you compare indeed their religion exp essed in their writiâ—gs with yours such are all the Doctours aswell of the Greeke as Latin church so manie good Emperours and vertuous Kinges Princes Dukes and Earles which haue raigned in France Spaine Germany and England and ouer all the worlde and haue died in the faith leauing their workes to beare witnes of their good fruites d Many Kings Quâ—enes Nobles and others of our religion haue done these things also The which haue builded so manie faire hospitals to helpe releeue the poore so many goodly Colledges to entertaine fatherles children at their bookes so manie foundations and workes for the common wealth and that haue builded so manie sumptuous e The first pulling of them dowâ—e here in England came euen from your Cardinals and great bishops vnder the pretence therwith to found colledges and so hauing giuen the king an example wheâ— he was disposed to follow it they easily consented indeed the abhominaâ—ions therin committed was their ouerthrow Abbeies and houses of Religion the which you with your godlie zeale haue not onely robbed and spoiled but that that is more odious you haue pulled them cleane downe to deface the memorie of our ancesters to acquite all these which are notable monuments you brag of the good deedes that your good Christians doe which are much like vnto the gaines of those that vse to cog at dise for although they win much it is neuer seene or like the Iewes which to colour their horrible crueltie in putting our sauiour vniustly to death they weÌ„t bought with the monie that they gaue to Iudas a field to bury the dead k As deepe and grounded papists were lickorish of Abbey lands as any other and as greedily and securely they enioy them still amongst vs. Cardinall Woolsey and the Bishop of Rochester your great Martyr first began that course here And so you hauing robbed spoiled froÌ„ the religious houses and Abbeies more then you are able to restore you thinke to acquite it al with giuing a little to the poore No no these deuises are but vaine if by the fruit the tree be knowen as Christ saieth let them that haue anie iudgement looke vpon the fruit of our trees then iudge whither they be good or no. The XXXIIII Chapter PArtly in the former Chapter but more plainly in this you shew that you vnderstand by the trees that Christ spake of good Religion and bad But if you view the place you will at least I am sure you should rather thereby vnderstaÌ„d the persons of men effectually called as I haue saied or not called at all or at least yet vneffectually called that sound religion is one of the principall fruits that he meant should grow vpoÌ„ the former to discerne him from the later For his scope was not there to teach vs how to discerne religions but how to discerne the children of God from the children of sathan And thus it will proue that the sence of this prouerbe will not proue hard at all to vs to digest but to you who what shew soeuer you caÌ„ make with
afterwardes in conclusion finally may so fall awaie that he become the childe of the Deuill and this is the second thing that I though good to admonish you and your reader of For this is also a most dangerous errour shaking al the certaine grouÌ„ds of our faith and therefore to our comforte it is plainely taught vs contrarie to this in the Scripture that the gifts and graces of God whereby are meant the giftes of regeneration are without repentance Rom. 11.29 and therefore whom Christ loueth once as his owne as doubtlesse he doeth all them that are new borne once indeede Iohn tels vs he loues to the ende Iohn 13.1 And Paul vpon this ground that he knew with whom God once went so farre as towardes them to shew his power and mercy in regenerating of them that he would neuer finallie forsake them but perfect in theÌ„ that good worke of his assures the Philippians that he that had begunne that good worke in them would performe it vntill the day of Iesus Christ cap. 1.6 And yet I doe not deny but such maie haue their falles and that in such sort that to their owne sence feeling and in the opinions of others they haue quite fallen from grace and all the good gifts of regeneration but yet if before they were not sacramentally onely but really in trueth new borne and clensed from their sinnes in Christ the spirit and graces of God in them were but in this case as the sunne hid from our eies by thicke cloudes and as fire raked vp in the ashes which God will cause to shine againe and to growe to a fire in them when hee in his good time hath caused the cloudes to vanish and hath remooued the ashes This you can holde to bee true in Peter notwithstanding his fall because Christ praied that his faith should not faile Luk. 22. why should you not then vpon Christes praier made generally for all his elect that his heauenly father would keepe them and that from euill Ioh. 17.15 conceiue the like of all those whoÌ„ God hath once sealed indeede with the peculiar seale of regeneration proper onely to his elect But it seemes you thinke you haue ground enough for this your opinion in that you see many that haue seemed to stand finally to fal and that you finde the promisses run vpon this condition if we perseuere vnto the end whereunto I answere that in the former you may be deceiued two waies either in taking them to haue stood indeede which yet neuer came vnto it or in condeÌ„ning them as finally to haue fallen when as it may be otherwise and as for the second I say that as it is certaine that the promisses runne vpon that condition so the Lord will giue all those grace to performe that conditioÌ„ that be once thus sealed to be his For nothing shal separate theÌ„ from the loue of God in Christ Iesus Rom. 8. such are kept by the power of god through faith vnto saluatioÌ„ 1. Pe. 1.5 You must therefore thirdly be admonished that indeede you doe misunderstaÌ„d Iohn the other testimonies to fortifie Iohns doctrin as daÌ„gerously as euer did IouiniaÌ„ Nouatus or any other if you take them so to be vnderstoode as it seemeth you doe that by these places wee are taught that none in any actuall sinne and hauing a minde to doe euill is in that meane while the childe of God but of the Deuill If this were true doctrine seeing it is writen that no man liueth sinneth not 1. King 8. no man can say his hart is cleane Pro. 20. but euen when we are at the best we must needs confesse that those good things that we would do we do not those euil thiÌ„gs that we would leaue vndone we doe Ro. 7. that if we say we haue no sin we deceiue our selues there is no truth in vs 1. Ioh. 1. therfore it is certaine that ther was neuer child of God yet but ofteÌ„ times he hath had a mind to doe euill and bene sometime in actuall sinne I say these thinges being most true because both Scripture and experience teach them so to be if this doctrine of yours be true also then so often as there is a purpose and performance of any actuall sinne and as long as that is found in man so often and so long he is the childe of the Deuill and not of God If this be thus if you knewe how farre actuall sinne streatcheth and weighed without dissembling how prone the best men are to fall I am fully perswaded there is none of you all that a whole day togither can haue assurance that you are any other but the children of the Deuill For if the Lorde should straitely marke what is done amisse and enter into iudgement with his seruants no man could for one daies space in trueth cleare himselfe of all actuall sinne committed either in word deede or thought by omitting good things commanded or doing ill things forbidden If in stead of saying in the meane while you had only saied therein and in that respect he is not the childe of God your speech might haue beene borne withall For indeed in the new borne though there be a new man yet as long as they liue they shall finde some reliques of the olde man remaâ—ning and so a law in their members rebelling against the law of the spirit Rom. 7. Gal. 5. by meanes wherof it commeth to passe that though sinne raigne not in their mortall bodies and they neuer commit sinne vnto death and transgresse with the whole man as the carnall men doe yet in respect of this old man that is left sinne dwelleth in them as a tyrant and getteth them now and then to doe him some seruice though not with the consent and liking of the new but it striuing against the same as it also euidently appeareth in the two foresaied Chapters Rom. 7. Gal. 5. wherein in which respect they may be saied not to be the children of God but in the meane while in that by the inner man these things that are done through the tyranny of the old man are not consented vnto but misliked striuen against by them therefore with Paul they comfort theÌ„selues say now if I doe that which I wold not it is no more I that do it but the sin that dwelleth in me RoÌ„ 7. with Iohn after that through the beholding of this their infirmity they haue coÌ„fessed that if they should say they had no sin they deceiued theÌ„selues there were no truth in theÌ„ they raise vp theÌ„selues againe saying if we acknowledge our sins he is faithful iust to forgiue vs our sin to clense vs from all vnrighteousnes 1. Ioh. 1. and so remaine still euen whiles they finde these battailes foiles risings againe in themselues the children of God For S. Iohn is not to be vnderstood to deny simply that the new borne sin but to deny that they
sinne vnto death or with their full and whole power and wil as they doe which are vnregenerated Otherwise he were contrarie vnto himselfe in that he coÌ„fesseth speaking of himselfe such as he was theÌ„ as you haue heard that if they saied they had no sin they deceiued theÌ„selues there was no trueth in theÌ„ Neither is there any thing in any of the rest of the places by you alleaged that coÌ„trarieth this my interpretation of Iohn or coÌ„firmeth yours For meÌ„ in the time wheÌ„ sinne is but thus dwelling in them so through their infirmity now then though against the wil of the spirit dursting from them yet euen theÌ„ retaine the spirit of God in theÌ„ which sheweth it selfe both in procuâ—ing that it was not committed but as it were with a piece of the wil in after so taking vp the trespasser for so doing inwardly in his conscience that he groweth to indignatioÌ„ with himselfe for yeelding so far so to a more carefulnes to take heed of sin afterwards to a firmer purpose power to excercise himselfe in good works euery day dying more more vnto sin liuing more more vnto righteousnes wherupon it commeth to passe that such are not no not euen in this time of their infirmity answerable to the description of the wise man wherwith he setteth them forth that are not capable of the good spirit of God Sap. 1. such doe yet bring forth the works of AbrahaÌ„ in their inner man at al time outwardly also vpon the recouery from the foile of the flesh from time to time But sin grace cannot dwel togither you say herein you strengthen your selfe with Ioh. 8 Sap. 1 Matth. 6.1 Cor. 10. it is true sin with his head vncrushed in his ful power streÌ„gth caÌ„not dwel in the same maÌ„ in whoÌ„ is the spirit of regeneratioÌ„ at one the selfesame time but as I haue said it may doeth or else it neuer continueth a day to an end in any one maÌ„ except the maÌ„ Christ For al else daily offeÌ„d sin but yet theÌ„ sin weakened not in his full strength dwelleth in the man in respect of the flesh that is in respect of so much of him as is not fully brought in subiection to the spirit the spirit dwelleth in him euery day preuailing more and more in respect of the other part which is renewed according to the wil of the spirit and therefore called the new man This point of diuinity though most true and certaine by these your speeches it seemeth you are not acquainted wtall but yet it seemeth strange that you which brag so much of the spirit to direct your Popes your couÌ„cels Church should coÌ„sidering the manifold great sins errors they haue fallen into set downe this doctrine that sin the spirit of God cannot dwel togither As for your place Wisdo 1 it is rightly to be vnderstood of such as are hypocrites and dissemblers and dwell in foolish and wilfull ignorance for from such the spirit of discipline flyeth but such are not the children of God that I haue described to haue in them both the new man and the old spirit flesh therefore such may as I haue saied be capable of Gods spirit and such may be the true seruants of God and doe the workes of Abraham and bee partakers of the table of the Lorde as long as sinne raigneth not in their mortall bodies howsoeuer sometimes it shew it selfe to dwell in them And this you must be driuen to confesse or else you preach the right doctrine of desperation to your selfe and all that heare you But to passe froÌ„ these pointes which I thought good thus to admonish the reader and your selfe of let vs returne to your conclusion of this Chapter wherein after you haue shewed vs that to finde your Religion to be a good tree we must not looke vpoÌ„ your rotten fruit because your Religion condemneth such fruit but vpon your doctours and great personages that haue died throughout the world in your faith and left notable monuments of hospitalls colledges and such like works behinde theÌ„ you charge vs not onely that our Religion cannot shew the like but that rather wee haue spoiled and defaced your monumeÌ„ts as your Abbies and such like and thinke to make ameÌ„ds with giuing some little now to the poore Whereunto briefly my answere is this all this cannot proue your Religion good nor ours bad vnles you can proue yours true by the scriptures and ours false For as bad fruits as these you charge vs withall may be founde in them whose Religion is good as good as these you bragge of to the outward shew may be fouÌ„d where the Religion is false and idolatrous euen by your owne doctrine in the former Chapter which answere were sufficient Howbeit for the more full and particular satisfying of the commoÌ„ reader I say further first in that you forbid vs to iudge of your Religion by the view of the rotten fruit that we haue found in some that haue professed it because your Religion condemus such fruit you must not thinke much if we prescribe the same rule to you in respect of ours for as euident it is that our Religion condeÌ„neth sinne yea euen to the least sinne as euer did yours and more too in that we condemne the first motions arising in mans minde to sinne though not consented vnto to be sinne which you deny and in that we teach the least breach of the law deserueth in it selfe damnation and you doe teach there are a number veniall sinnes euen for the littlenes thereof and therefore to be put away euen with trifling toies and deuises of your owne Secondly I say that by that your Religion be conferred with the ReligioÌ„ that most of these great personages and doctors you talke of died in and both of them be tried by the scriptures and then compared with ours it wil be founde that not halfe of them died in your faith as you imagine yea that the ancientest and best of them died in ours and therefore both they and their monuments are ours and giue greater credit vnto our religion then all the rest doe vnto yours And euen of late daies diuerse famous persons of our religion haue founded Schooles Hospitals and Colledges as well as yours What Duke Cassimer is you know and what hee hath done at Newstade and elsewhere in Germanie this way it cannot bee vnknowen Euen now also with vs in England a zealous professour of our Religion and an ancient noble Counseller Sir Walter Mildemay hath founded a noble new Colledge in Cambridge called Emanuel Colledge And since the beginning of her Maiesties raigne that now is our gracious soueraigne Ladie Queene Elizabeth notable things by her selfe and others there hath beene done to the erecting of Hospitals and common Schooles and also to the maintenance and furtherance of learning in both the Vniuersities
eare-shrist pardons but by their faithful preaching of the will of God sacraments ministring and vsing of the other censures in due time and place They haue a ministry of testification and declaration by the rule and light of the scriptures thorow the shining of Gods spirit in their hearts to assure them that rightly vnderstand them and beleeue them of that assuredly which God only doeth properly absolutely and principally But you seeme in thus alleadging of these places first so thinke that the power and authority the Christ here gaue his Apostles to binde and loose c. inuesteth them streight with power and authority to binde euery man to make vnto them your auricular confession whereas we neither read that any did so vnto them nor that they for all this euer exacted any such thing at any mans hands that they dealt withall and secondly you seeme to take the power giuen them and from thē deriued to other ministers here to be such that they properly and absolutely should haue power to pardon sinne c. which is absurd and blasphemous for you once but to imagine For so can none forgiue sinnes but God onely How can you say or thinke that a Priest properly or absolutely can absolue one of sinne seeing he may not so much as pronounce or declare a sinner to be pardoned of God vnles he be contrite penitent and faithfull indeede Now God onely and the party are priuy to this whither these thinges be sound and right in the heart or no for an hypocrite can make a shew to deceaue man withall in these you know vnles therfore we will thinke that we haue power to absolue him whom God yet condemneth our pronouncing of pardon or absolution to those that seeme such vnto vs must be but conditionall if they be such in deede as they make shew for and therefore neither is nor can it be proper or absolute Ambrose libro 3. de Spiritu Sancto ca. 19. by that of Iohn proues the godhead of the holy ghost for that he can and doeth forgiue sinnes which were no good argument if by that place Christ meant to giue ministers power and authority properly and absolutely to doe it vnles it be lawful to think that they are very Gods But marke I pray you your kinde of reasoning from these places Christ gaue to his Apostles power and authority giuing them the holy Ghost to bind and to forgiue sins ergo auricular confession before the sacrament thereby was enioynes this is your argument or else you saie nothing in all this for your selues against vs. For we deny not but most willingly confesse that by these places it is certaine that Christ gaue vnto his true ministers to whom he gaue the holy Ghost power and authority as ministers to doe this But what is this to authorize your priestes which are no ministers of his ordinance and to whom hee hath not giuen that spirit to doe this Or what is this if they had authority to doe it either to that which they take vpon them or to enforce a necessity of such auriculer confession as you practise and pleade for Herein it is with you as it is in other points of your religion you are deceaued and after seeke to abuse and deceaue others with the ambiguity and diuersity of acceptions of confession For that is a common tricke with you when you finde either in scripture or father that there is but the word mentioned that by any stretching maie reach to your meaning to alleadge that streight as flat full and pregnant for your purpose when as indeede if the circūstāces of the place he looked into it is as far from countenācing your opinion as may be So in this case you finding in scripture some mention of confessiō of sinnes and sundry examples of the same and likewise in the fathers you finding that they exhort and perswade men to confesse their sinnes you by and by imagined that your auricular confession must needes be that that they speake of or at least your learning not suffering you so to imagin you contrary to your owne knowledge and conscience as it seemeth could be contented to doe what you could to make your Reader so to thinke Wherefore to arme him hereafter against your subtlety or the cunning of any of your fellowes in this point and so to giue him a triacle to preserue him from the danger of your popish poison in this case let him know and vnderstand that there haue beene and be many kinds of confessing of sinnes spoken of both in scriptures and fathers and yet you neuer the nearer for yours For Augustine de verbis Euangelii hom 8. very pretily according to his maner saieth that confession is tither laudis or fraudis that is of praise or of fraude by the former vnderstanding that kinde of confession whereby we thankfullie acknowledging what God hath beene or is vnto vs we burst forth into lauding and praysing his holy name therefore whereunto the faithfull seruants of God are oftentimes exhorted in the scriptures as for example Psalme 33. in these words confesse vnto the Lord in harpe and in a psaltery of ten strings sing vnto him And Dan. 3. in these confesse vnto the Lord that he is good and that his mercy is for euer which kinde of confession in our Churches we alwaies publickly vse both before and in the receiuing of the Sacrament which wee teach to be a Sacrament euen to prouoke vs so to doe for our free and full saluation purchased for vs by the death of Christ And the other is the generall to all kyndes and sortes of confession of sinnes which he tearmeth frawde because by all sinne God or man or both are wronged of that which is due vnto them Otherwise some distinguish confession into confession of fayth and confession of maners of the first whereof sayeth Christ Matthew the tenth hee that confesseth mee before men I will confesse him before my father which is in heauen and of this Saint Paul speaketh saying with the heart man beleeueth to righteousnesse but with the mouth confession is made to saluation and this is farre more playnely in vse with vs also then with you For in all our publicke assemblies ordinarily as it is wel knowen according to the three auncient Creedes in english that all present may vnderstande vs wee make confession of our faith And as for the later which is confession of our maners there is no kinde of so confessing taught and commended vnto vs either in the olde Testament or new either to God or man priuate or publicke but wee vse it allowe it and exhort one an other vnto it in farre better sort and maner then you doe Yea to go one step further with you there is no kynde of so confessing our faultes by the consent and vniforme practise of the auncient fathers approued vnto vs but therein also both before the receite of the Sacrament and at other times as
brother Caesarius oratione septima Ambrose for Valentian de obitu Valentiniani And for Theodosius de obitu eius and Augustine for his mother lib. confess 9. Cap. 13. Yea as William of Westminster reports in his story thus Charles the great about 800. years after Christ wrote to one Offa king here of Mercta to desire him that praiers might bee made for Pope Adrian nullam habētes dubitationem beatā illius animam esse in requie sed vt fidem dilectionem ostendamus in amicum nobis charissimum not doubting saieth he but that his blessed soule is in rest but to declare our faith and loue towardes our most deare frend Wherein they did as if a tender tutor ouer his pupill though hee knowe the childes parentes of themselues will more carefully and tenderly looke to their childe comming home vnto them from the vniuersity then euer hee did or coulde yet writing vnto them to shewe his loue towardes his scholler shoulde desire them to vse him louinglie and kindely Howsoeuer it cannot be denyed but that this was somewhat more then needed and was some occasion of further proceeding from step to step vntill there were too too playne groundes layed of popish kinde of praying for the dead yet euery man most easily may espie that this kinde of praying for the dead can neuer kindle either the fire of popish purgatory or iustifie their kinde of praying to relieue soules there Indeed it should seeme by Aerius his opposing himselfe against praying for the dead as it appeareth in Epiphanius hee did some by that time mistaking these kindes of praying for them that I haue spoken of and stretching the examples thereof further then they should at least as Aerius vnderstood them tooke vpon them so to pray for the dead that howsoeuer a man liued and died yet after he was gone by the prayers of his frendes it was thought that he should doe wel inough Against which kinde of praying for them he inueigheth as against the bane of all godlinesse and religion but herein by Epiphanius it appeareth he faulted that this being but either the opinion of the ignorant multitude or his owne onely misconstruing the Churches fashiō in remembring of the dead in their praiers or praiing for them he slanderously laied that to the charge of the Church Epiphanius therefore in answering of him laieth this downe for the ground of all the rest that those whō the Church praied for were with the Lord in rest and ioie which flatly sheweth that the Churches praying for the dead that he pleads for against Aerius maketh nothing for the popish praying for them or for purgatory But vpon this occasion AErius vrging this question whither the praiers of men aliue did profit the dead and if they did whither so far as that thereby they were deliuered from al their sinnes thereunto Epiphanius both belike quite to condemne the opinion of the ignorant multitude yet loth also to defend that which he could not iustifie first answereth onely that the praiers made for thē were profitable thē that yet not so profitable as that therby al their sinnes were done away but neither doeth he simply and plainely answere that they were profitable to the dead themselues nor once take vpō him to aduouch that thereby some certaine sinnes may be put away but subtlely leauing these things thus in suspense he flyeth to other causes and reasons why they are profitable And the causes and reasons set downe by him are these first thereby comfortably their frends aliue are occasioned to beleeue that they that are dead are not perished but aliue with the Lord secondly that thereby may be nourished in the that liue this hope that the soules of thē that are so dead are as pilgrimes gone out of their bodies to be with the Lord and thirdly that by praying so euen for the best as for patriarches prophets Apostles and martyrs it may bee acknowledged that the best were offēders that so Christ alone may haue that preheminence to be a man without sinne that so all may see what neede they haue of Christ The very like reasons to these are yeelded by him that beareth the name of Dionysius the Ariopagite of the solemne prayers and solemnities remembred by him at the buriall of the dead cap. 7. Eccles Hierarchiae where of them that die he maketh but two sortes holy and prophane placing the holy company all of them aswell the imperfecter sort as the most perfect in blessed state in their soules immediately vpon their deathes and the other in woe and eternall misery And yet he alloweth not onely for the former sort thankesgiuing but also prayers to be made vnto God that for Christs sake their sinnes may be forgiuen them for the comfort and commonifaction of them that are aliue as Epiphanius did So that though in this case it be vsuall with the Papists to make great bragges of Epiphanius and this Demus yet if they bee thorowly looked into they are more against them then with them The like may be saied of the rest of the auncient fathers whom they most make shewe of in this point for howsoeuer some of them maie seeme to come somewhat too neare them in seeming in some sort to imagine that some good may growe to the departed towards the easing of them of some of their sinnes by the prayers of the faithfull for them after they be gone hence as it cannot bee denied but that Chrysostome Augustine and some others haue thought yet that they either placed all that they prayed for to haue any of their sinnes forgiuen thē in purgatorie or that they thought that soules so tormented there for sinnes vnsatisfied for here might thereby bee freed from their sinnes not fully pardoned them ere they went hence they shall neuer bee able to proue And yet these are the thinges that they must proue or else their maner of praying for the dead is left vnproued For with one voice euen they that otherwise seeme most to fauour them in this point holde that there is no purgation or clensing from sinne but onely in the bloud of Christ that here pardon of sinnes is to bee obtained or neuer and that after this life ended there is no bettering or altering the state of the departed before the last iudgement all which are positions whereof euery one is sufficient to quench the fire of the Popish purgatorie and to ouerthrowe their ende of praying for the dead For proofe whereof let vs but cōsider of these speeches and sayings of theirs amōgst an infinite nūber of like force vttered by thē The authour of those tracts of Iob commonly fathered of Origen from whence often they would seeme in this case to haue great furniture descrybing the fashion of the church in his time saieth in the third tract or booke we celebrate not the day of our natiuity seeing it is the entrance into sorrowe temptation but the day of our death as the very laying
common with you to al the solemnity of ceremonies that you vse now To trauell no further for the matter let vs but take a view of your rites and ceremonies in this case as they are set downe in your late Catechisme by the decree of the councell of Trent and Pius the fift Bishop of Rome writen and published for the instructioÌ„ of your parish Priests what and how to teach their people and we shall finde that these places doe not mention the one halfe of them by farre There first they are deuided in three rankes or sortes the first is of them that you by authority of that councell vnder paine of being anathematized must vse before the partie to be baptised come to the font the second is of such as be vsed in the baptizing of him and the third is of such as be vsed after Of the first stampe be these consecrating of the water with the oile of misticall vnction of Easter day and Whitsonday that shall serue for the whole yeare after as there shal be occasion to vse it the staying of the party without the Church dore vntill he either by himselfe or his Godfather for him promise the forsaking of the seruice of Sathan and his yeelding to enter into Gods seruice and family and being asked what he would haue answere be giuen that he would haue baptisme which being knowen theÌ„ it is saied further that he is to be instructed in the Cathecisme and is to answere it by himselfe or his godfather which done then in religious words and praiers exorcisme or adiuration to expell the deuil and to weaken and ouerthrow his power in him must be vsed a little salt must be put into his mouth the signe of the Crosse is to be made vpon his forehead eies brest shoulders and eares and lastly with the priests spettle his nostrels and eares must be anointed Now these things thus finished then he is admitted or brought to the font where next follow the rites of the second order which there are thus set downe then is he thrise asked whither he doe abreâ—ounce the deuill c. And thrise he or his godfather make answere abrenuÌ„tio I doe abrenouÌ„ce and then likewise he is asked whither he doe beleeue the twelue articles of the Christian faith whereunto answere is made credo I beleeue and lastly whither he will be baptized is demaunded wherunto answere being made volo I will he is baptized in the water in the font in the name of the father the sonne and holy Ghost either being dipt into the water or by hauing water poured or sprinkled vpon him according to the maner and fashion of the Church in that countrey where the party is baptized Where is also further shewed that it was the minde of that holy councel that at the most there should be but one godfather and one godmother thus to answere and vndertake for the baptized both because the order of discipline and instruction thorough a multitude of masters might be troubled and also because it was meet so to prouide least otherwise betwixt too many such spirituall affinities should grow as might hinder mariadge amongst men too much For as the writer of that booke further saieth most wisely by the Church it was decreed that there should grow such affinity not onely betwixt the baptized and baptizer but also betweene the baptized and the sureties and the baptized his true parents that thenceforth none of them might marry togither That also may not be forgotten that there also it is shewed that the naturall parentes of the party to bee baptized may not so promise answere for him that so that rather it weâ— appeare how farre this spirituall education differs froÌ„ the carnall Belike the authour of this Catechisme the councell Pope that set him a worke coÌ„maÌ„ded the publishing of his booke had quite forgotteÌ„ that S. Paul saieth to naturall pareÌ„ts yee fathers bring vp your childreÌ„ in instructioÌ„ informatioÌ„ of the Lord Ephes 6. ver 4. or else they were at a flat point they cared not whatsoeuer hee had taught Now your Ceremonies of the lust sort as he setteth theÌ„ out are these baptisme ministred finished the baptizeds crowne of the head is to be annointed with the holy chrisme a white garment or at least a white sudarioluÌ„ that is handkerchiefe or cloth to wipe away sweat withall is to be giuen him a burning waxe candle is to be put into his hand lastly his name must be giueÌ„ him Now I pray you what are the 5. things aforesaied mentioned in these places to such a nuÌ„ber as these And yet the Tridentine couÌ„cel whose mind this authour plainly set out thought al these so necessary can 13. de SacrameÌ„tis that it pronouÌ„ceth him accursed that shall coÌ„teÌ„ne omit or take vpoÌ„ him to alter any of these And the more is as it is euideÌ„t by your own doctors DuraÌ„d Dorbel Herolt others you obserue not these rites ceremonies with the opinioÌ„ that ecclesiasticall coÌ„stitutions of such matters ought only to be obserued wtal that is in hâ—lding stilfast the doctrine of ChristiaÌ„ liberty in your coÌ„scieÌ„ces obseruing theÌ„ for deceÌ„cy coÌ„lines edification wtout opinion of holines necessity merit therin for the better maintenaÌ„ce of order peace in the church but most grosly superstitiously idolatrously haue you taught meÌ„ to impute to a nuÌ„ber of them as naÌ„ely to your exorcism annointing crossing such force efficacy as that not only you haue made theÌ„ to encroch far vpoÌ„ the vse effect of baptism it self but also you haue do attribute so great so many spiritual graces effects to theÌ„ that litle or nothing is left as speciall to baptisme Nay who is so simple but that he seeth that these such other rites ceremonies amoÌ„gst you though it be neuer so euident that they be but of humane deuise inuentioÌ„ are more carefully vrged obserued theÌ„ that very order that expreslie it set downe in the scriptures theÌ„selues about concerning the administratioÌ„ of the sacrameÌ„ts if it were not thus you durst not so coÌ„trary to the doctrine order of S. Paul 1. cor 14. appoint vse rather as you do an vnknown tongue in the ministring of theÌ„ then a laÌ„guage that the people might vnderstaÌ„d be edified by so say ameÌ„ with vnderstaÌ„ding to your praiers thaÌ„ksgiuing Nether durst you thus to ad to the lords ordinaÌ„ces accurse theÌ„ that omit any of your additioÌ„s in the mean time take vpoÌ„ you quite coÌ„trary to the words of Christ drink ye al of this to bereaue the coÌ„moÌ„ people of the cup to the sacrameÌ„t of Christs body bloud wtall by your new found tearme and doctrine of concomitance peruerting quite the vse end of the sacrament in making it a sacrament of the life glory of Christ whereas by his ordinance it is a sacrament of his death and abasement for
our redemption vpon the Crosse In taking therfore bread a part calling it his body brokeÌ„ afterwards wine and tearming it his bloud shed for many to the remission of their sins it was his purpose that by the vse of this sacrament vntill his coÌ„ming againe his Church should set forth his death and passion and so the separation of his body bloud the one froÌ„ the other you by this your deuise inuented for the maintenaÌ„ce of your Helena transubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ make it to serue to a quite contrary end naÌ„ely to teach the coniunctioÌ„ stil of his body and bloud together and so to be a sacrament in effect to deny his death passion Of you therfore it may again most iustly be said that once Christ said of your right forefathers the Scribes and Pharisees in his time you are they y strein a gnat and swalow a camel and that for your owne traditions make no reckoning of the commandements of God Mat. 15. 29. Mar. 7. And certaine it is that whiles you and others of whoÌ„ you haue learned al these ceremonies of yours haue takeÌ„ vpon you thus to adde vnto Christs ordinance of baptisme such a nuÌ„ber of needles ceremonies especially vrging theÌ„ and vsing them as you doe al these welâ— therupoÌ„ directly follow you seeke to make the day light of the new Testament euen as darke as the night of the old by your new fouÌ„d figures and types you strongly lead meÌ„ to think that the simplicity of Christs institution of this sacrament was not decent and sufficiently ful of maiesty for the dignity of such a sacrament you by the multitude and pompe of your solemne ceremonies darken and obscure these things that are essential necessary thereunto indeed you take the effects inward graces apperteining to the right vse of baptism froÌ„ it coÌ„municate theÌ„ wtout other commaÌ„dement or promise from God to things but of meÌ„s inueÌ„tion lastly forcibly you thereby occasion meÌ„ to think that the integrity fulnes of this sacrament dependeth vpon these Howsoeuer therfore you would seeme from sundry places in Aug. here quoted by you to fetch credit for them yet these things being true which I haue saied as they are they well considered seeing in Augustines time it is certaine that neither there were so many nor those that were so superstitiouslie were then vrged or vsed we may be sure that hee would if he were now aliue to see and vnderstand all these thinges most vehemently write and speake against you therein For speaking but of the rites and ceremonies and the maner of vsing of them that were in his time hee greatly shewed his dislike then both of the multitude and maner of pressing them vpon men saying Hoc nimis doleo c. I cannot but extreamly sorrow for this that many things which most holesomly are commaunded in the diuine books are lesse cared for and all things are full of so many presumptions Epi. 119. And further he addeth in the same Epistle touching the same quamuis ista contra fidem non sint c. and though these things be not against faith yet wheras the mercy of god would haue religion free burdened with most few and most manifest sacraments to be obserued these with seruile burdens to presse it that more tollerable is the state of the Iewes who although they knowe not the time of their liberty yet they are subiect to the burdens of the law and not to humane presumptions and therefore his opinion in the ende is flat of all such that assoone as may bee without all doubt they be to be cut off in the same Epistle also Yea Pope Stephanus as he is cited of Gratian dist 63. Quia sancta speaking of humane orders aboue the election of Popes saieth plainely that if any of his predecessours did some things which then might be faultles and after they were turned into errour and superstition which is the cause of these your ceremonies which we mislike in you most flatly sine tarditate antiquâ cum magnâ authoritate destruantur a posteâ—s that is without any slacknes and with great authority let them of them that come after be destroied which assertion of his he doeth ground vpoÌ„ the example of good Ezechias in breaking the brasen serpeÌ„t which Moses had made c. And whereas you vnder your Tridentine curse would binde all churches to the strict obseruing of all these your solemne ceremonies you know or at least should that that is contrary to the ancient doctrine of Christian liberty in such things and to the practise and experience of the primitiue Church Annicet and Polycarp the East Church and the West you know a long time freely differed about the time of the obseruation of Easter and yet pacem saieth Irenaeus in vniuersâ ecclesiâ c. that is both parts throughout the whole church kept and maintained christian peace Euseb lib. 3. cap. 23. and so likewise there hee shewes that there had beene a long time great difference about the fast before Easter both for the time of the coÌ„tinuance and otherwise yet that thereby rather in his opinion the vnity of faith was coÌ„mended then hindred And of Gregories answere to Leander touching the dipping of the baptized once or thrise the answere being as it was is reported by your owne Gratian de consecr dist 4. that howsoeuer the party was once or thrise dipped it was to be counted baptised you might learne that there is no such necessity as you imagine to haue generally throughout the whole church of Christ one precise forme of rites ceremonies to be kept that touch lesse the substaÌ„tial parts of the sacrament then this did That Gregory could say to fortifie that answere of his in vnâ fide nihil officit sanctae ecclesiae consuetudo diuersa that is the diuersity of custome or fashioÌ„ doeth not hurt the church continuing in one faith And our Cronicles doe plainely testify that neither Eleutherius bishop of Rome about the yeare 180. though king Lucius here sent vnto him for the Roman lawes to frame his people by would binde him thereunto nor yet the foresaied Gregory answering Augustine the Monks question would tie him then for the ordering of the church here to the Ceremonies and customes of Rome But the first sent Lucius for his direction to the lawes of God being without exception and not to the RomaÌ„ laws which might he confesseth be reproued and the other in his answere to Augustines third demaund how it came to passe that the faith being but one the ceremonies and customs were so diuers as that there was one maner of masse at Rome an other in FraÌ„ce wils him without respect of place out of many churches to chuse the best orders And who so will reade Socrates 5. booke and the 18.19.20.21 22. Chapters of the same he shall there finde not onely in a number of things diuerse fashions rites