that of nature we were all the sonnes of wraeth If ye alledge that the apostle speaketh in that place of man as he is corrupted in Adame and so iustly depriued from gods fauor then I demand of you if man doth yet staÌ„d in Adame which if ye confesse the holie spirit shall conuict you of alie For by the mouth of the Apostle he affirmed that by one maÌ„ sinne entred in to the world aÌ„d by the meanes of sinne death came vpon all men so that in the first man Adame who fell frome his puritie haue we neither loue iustice nor life but y e coÌ„traries to wit hatred sinne aÌ„d deaâ—h But God as he had chosen his elect before all beginning in Christe Iesus his Sonne so hath he placed these giftes in the second Adam alone â–ª that of his fulnes we may all receaue euen grace for grace And thus ye may easely perceaue how vane be your arguments which you iudged most strong Your first drawen from nature and naturall inclination proueth nothing becaus that God who is alwaies fre can not be subiect to the lawes of nature Albeit that for our weaknes he some tymes vseth similitudes taken from nature Your second is like vaine seing that neither Adam him self did stand in his perfection neither is any of his corrupted sede as he is the soÌ„ of Adam borne in that coÌ„dition aÌ„d dignitie But coÌ„trarie wise we must refuse fleshe and blood nature and our first AdaÌ„ if euer we shall be partakers of life This onely were sufficient to confute bothe your vnreasonable reasons But that here after ye shall haue no accasion to complain of obscurite neither yet that we relent in any parte I will first simply propose what we teach and beleue and there after by gods grace euidently proue the same You make the loue of God common to all men and that do we constantly deny and say that before all beginning God hath loued his elect in Christ Iesus his Sonne and that frome the same eternitie he hath reprobate others whom for most iust causes in the tyme appointed to his iudgement he shall adiuge to tormentes and fier inextinguible Here you stomak and storme here ye crie blasphemie and here you say that we affirme that which can not be proued by gods scriptures How sure is the probation of the former part let the indifferent reader iudge by that which is all ready spoken Let vs now come to the second And that ye shall not think that I shall more depend vpon argumentes and reason then vpon scripture I will begin with scripture and let argumentes and reason serue onely in stede of hande maides which shall not command but obey scripture pronounced by the voyce of God After that by rebellion man was spoiled of all graces and that the contrarie vices had taken place and possession in the heartes of bothe these miserable creatures of Adam I mean and of the woman God pronouÌ„ced this senteÌ„ce agaiÌ„st the serpeÌ„t Because thow hast done this cursed art thow amoÌ„gst all the beastes of the earth I shall establish enemitie betwext the aÌ„d that womaÌ„ betwext thy sede and her sede That sede shall break downe thy head and thow shalt break doune his hele As I suppose no man wil be so impudent as to deny that this is the voice of God pronouncing and promising that he will stablish and put a battel where none was appering to be for sathan before had obteined such victorie and so had vanquished bothe the woman and Adam that they could neuer haue resisted that seruitude by them selues And therefor doth he disclose the bowelles of his mercie and doth communicat with them that counsell which was secrete with him selfe before all begining And if ye demande How can it be proued that this was his eternall counsell I answer because that he in whom there is no changeing nor variablenes hath now pronounced it and whether this reason be sufficient or not in answering to your obiection we shall after consider Now resteth it onely to be obserued whether it was the will of God or not to make a difference betwext man and man Plaine it is that before his face as touching the first birth there standeth but one lompe or masse as saint Paul termeth it and yet from the same are two sedes appointed to spring which are the two churches The elect conteined vnder the sede of the woman and the reprobate or malignant church comprehended vnder the name of the serpentes sede To the one is promised victorie to the other is denounced by the irreuocable sentence of God the â–ª broosing of the head which is destruction and confusion I think ye will not say that he was constreined ther to by any force exterior as we speake seing he is the eternall which changeth not euer abiding Lord ouer all creatures who may and doth performe what so euer he will in heauen and in earth Then of necessitie it must folowe that this battell is appointed by his will And that do the wordes plainely beare For he saieth not I know that there shall be a battell or I will suffer and permitt as you vse to interprete such places a battel to be but he plainely saieth I will put and stablish the battel and enemitie declaring thereby that as he was the force strengthe and the conductor to the sede of the woman so wolde he most assuredly giue victorie to the same Which thing S. Augustine diligently did note and godly admonished Affirming that our condition in Christe Iesus is now better and more sure then before was the condition of Adam in his own fre will For that that he had non other strength but that which might be and was ouercome But we haue the strength that is inuincible because it is the power of the eternall This one place I say doeth most euidently proue that God willingly maketh a difference betwext man and man appointing to the one sorte victorie and lief to the other subiection and death But yet ye reply this can not be proued to be the eternall couÌ„sell of God for it is pronouÌ„ced in respect of the faith workes and obedience of the one and in respect of the infidelitie vicious liuing and inobedience of the other Your obiection which here I now intreat that after I be the les troubled hath two membres the former will I now touche abiding better oportunitie for the other Where ye alledge that this can not be proued to haue bene the eternall counsell of God becaus it was pronounced in tyme your reason appereth and is more then foolish For what is he that agaiÌ„st he plain scripture of God will affirme this reason The kingdome of heauen sâ—albe giuen in the end of the world to the elect of God therefor it was not prepared to them before the beginning Doth not I say the plaine voice of Christ condemne this vaine reason Or if I should
same And will also touche the rest of these your argumentes so briefly as I can Where ye reason that we were all created in one mā that is in Adam So were we all created in one estate c. If ye vnderstād that we were all created in one estate that is in that estate which shortly was to change becaus that God had so determined in his eternal counsell that by the fall of one his infinite mercie towardes his chosen ād seuere iudgement towardes the vessels of wraith should euidently appere in the tyme appointed by his wisdom If this I say you vnderstand that we were all created in one estate I will not contend with you Albeit in verey dede in that self same masse there were at once vessels of mercy ād vessels of wraith But because ye open yo ◠minde in the cōtrarie part saing That we were created in Adam after the image of God to lief I am compelled vtterly to dissent from you and fear not to affirme that becaus none did stand to the end in that image but all fell euē to death in Adam that therefor neither in Adam neither yet in that image as Adam had it was any created vnto lief but in Christ Iesus were all the chosen predestinate to lief euerlasting euen before that euer Adam was created as the Apostle plainely doeth witnes Where ye go about to proue by our opinion the ordinance of God in his election before the world not to be conforme to his ordinance in the creation and so consequently God to be a transgressor and inconstant ye declare your self not onely ignorāt vaine and foolishe but also irreuerent and blasphemous against gods maiestie for ye so far as in you lieth spoile him of his Godhead making him to chāge his counsell purpose and ordinance euen so oft as the creatures do chāge where we by the cōtrarie labour to explane ād not to escaip any violēce of your dartes by a bare solution as ye alledge but by the plaine scriptures openly we do affirme that as our God is eternall incomprehensible and immutable so are his counsels constant subiect to no immutabilitie nor change cōstant I say in God him self how so euer thinges change to our apprehensiō And therefor we say that neither in his election before the world neither in his creation of man to his own image and similitude was it his eternall coūsell purpose nor ordināce that all the posteritie of Adam should be saued And so can ye not proue that God destroyed any thing which he had builded Albeit to note one thing by the way Paule wold not haue bene so bold as to haue made him self check mate with God he did not I say accuse God of inconstancie neither did he appoint him to be a transgressor althogh he builded the ceremonies vnder the Law and destroied them againe But to our purpose 〈◊〉 I say destroied nothing which he had builded True it is that man destroied that image which God had builded but that building of God was but temporall and for a tyme onely but the perfect building of his churche was in Christe Iesus builded before the foundations of the world were laid which building God neuer destroied nor shall destroy but shall cōsummate the work to the praise of his holie name To him be glory In your hole reasoning of the wordes of the Apostle you do erre in this point as before I haue noted that ye make cōmon to all that which y e holie Gost maketh peculiare to gods elect for ye must first proue all to be saintes by vocation all to be blessed with spirituall benediction and to haue obeyed and all to be builded vpon the foundatiō of the Prophetes ād Apostles before y t ye be able to proue that all were elected and predestinate in Christ Iesus before all tymes That we are created in Christe Iesus vnto good workes is not to be referred as ye think to the common creation of all men in Adam but to the new and spirituall regeneration which gods children haue in Christ Iesus for the which Dauid did pray saying a cleā heart creat in me ô God which is no lesse called the creation of God then was the first creation of man for as man in his creation neither wroght neither yet could deserue to be created so honorable as he was but did suffer the power of God to worke euen as it pleased his wisdom to perfourm the work So in our new creation vnto good workes the onely grace and power of God worketh not onely the beginning but also bringeth to perfection so that what so euer be good holie or iust in vs is gods creation and not our worke God open your eies that ye may se that neither in Adam neither yet in our selues were we created to good workes but in Christe Iesus alone And then I think ye will not so much boast of your fre will Your last as after ye do reason is a plain Paralogisme that is a Sophisticall and fals argument for it stādeth on foure termes against the vse of all good and solide reasoning For thus ye procede Saing we be elect and created in Christe Iesus and seing there is no condemnation to them that be in Christe Iesus then is there no damnation neither in the election nor creation Here be plainely foure termes for in your Maior that is in the first part of your argument ye say not we were elected and created in our election and in our creation but we were elected ād created in Christ Iesus The secōd propositiō is most trew to witt that there is no condēnation to them that be in Christe Iesus to such as walk not after the fleshe but what can ye conclude hereof that no damnation say you is in election nor in creation I say your conclusion is fals and vaine for you chāge your termes putting in the last part these two wordes Election and creation where ye oght to haue rehearesed these wordes Christ Iesus for thus you may well procede we be elected ād created to good workes in Christ Iesus but to them saieth the Apostle that be in Christ Iesus there is no cōdemnation Ergo to such as be elected and newly created in Christe Iesus there is no damnation This argument is formall and true but omitting your foolishnes which oftener I am compelled to shew then gladly I wold I go forward with your wordes THE ADVERSARIE If God reprobated man afore the foundation of the world then God reprobated man before he offended And if God reprobated and damned man afore be offended then is death the reward of gods ordināce afore the world ād not the reward of sinne But the Apostle teacheth vs that by sinne death entred into the world and also that death is the reward of sinne I pray you doeth either gods lawe or mannes law condemne any man afore he hath offended I am certen ye are not able to
that hath sent me that I shall lose nothing of all those which the Father hath giuen to me but that I might rayse them vp in the last day for this is the will of him that hath sent me that all that seeth the Sonne and beleueth in him may haue life euerlasting Of those wordes of our master it is euident first that the Father hath geuen some to thâ— Sonne Christe Iesus yea and also that some be that are not giuen But of that after And secâ—ndarely that it behoueth the same to come vnto him for so he affirmeth sayiÌ„g All that my father gaue vnto me shall come vnto me He leaueth it not in doubt but planely affirmeth they shall come Thirdly the end aÌ„d fruicte of the commiÌ„g is expressed to witt y â— they obteine life euerlasting Which to them that of the father are giuen and of the Sonne receaued is so sure that Christe Iesus him self pronouÌ„ceth y t oute of his handes is none able to plucke them awaye Plaine it is that the counsell of God is stable and his loue immutable towardes his elect becaus al other conditions set aparte Christe affirmeth that the life euerlasting perteineth to theÌ„ that are giuen by God and receaued by him in protection and sauegarde But more planely doth he speake in that his solemne praier for after that by diuers meanes he had coÌ„forted the sorowfull heartes of his disciples he giueth comfort to the whole churche Affirming that he did not pray onely for those that there were present with him but also for all those that should after beleue by their preaching in him These wordes he added for our singuler comforte I haue giueÌ„ vnto them the glorie which thow hast geuen to me that they may be one as we are one I in them aÌ„d thow in me that they may be made perfecte in one aÌ„d that the world may know y t thow hast sent me aÌ„d y t thou hast loued theÌ„ as thow hast loued me O that oure heartes coulde witâ—â—out contradictioÌ„ embrase these wordes for theÌ„ w t humilitie shoulde we prostrate oure selues before oure God aÌ„d with vnfeined teares giue thanks for his mercie Three things in these wordes are to be obserued first that the same glorie which God the Father hath giueÌ„ to his Sonne the same hath he giuen to such as beleue in him not that either Christ Iesus had then the full glorie as he was man for as yet he had not ouercome the death neither y â— his elect at any tyme in this life can atteine to the fruition of the same but that the one was as assured in gods immutable counsell as was the other For as the head shoulde ouercome the bitter death and so triumphe ouer sathan the authour thereof so should his membres in the tyme appoiÌ„ted as he doth further expresse sayinge I wil Father that where that I am there also be those which thou hast giuen vnto me that they may se my glorie The second is that so streâ—t and â—ere is the coniunction and vnion betweixt Christ Iesus and his membres that they must be one and neuer can be seperated For so did Christe pray Saing That they all may be one as we are one I in them aÌ„d thow in me that they may be made perfecte in one Let the coniunction be diligently marked for much it serueth to our comâ—ort As the Godhead is inseparably ioined with the humanitie in Christ Iesus our Lord so the one that is the God head neither could nor can leaue the humanitie at any tyme. how bitter that euer the stormes appeared so caÌ„ not Christ Iesus leaue his dear spouse the Church neither yet any trew membre of the same For that he includeth vnder the generall word all for any accideÌ„t how horrible that euer it be that came to passe in their life And albeit that this appere straÌ„ge and also a doctrine that may seme to giue libertie to sinne yet may not the children of God be defrauded of their fode becaus that dogges will abuse the same But of this we shall God willing after speak The third thing to be noted is that the loue of God towardes his elect giuen to Christe is immutable For Christ putteth it in equall ballance with the loue by the which his Father loued him Not that I wold any man should so vnderstand me as that I placed any man in equall dignitie and glorie with Christe Iesus touchiÌ„g his office No that must be reserued wholly and onely to him self that he is the â—lie beloued in whom all the rest are beloued that he is the head that onely geueth life to the bodie and that he is the souerane prince before whom all knee shall bowe But I meane that as the loue of God the Father was euer constant towardes his deare Sonne so is it also towardes the membres of his bodie yea euen when they are ignorant and enemies vnto him as the apostle witnesseth SaiÌ„g God specially commendeth his loue towardes vs that when we were yet sinners Christ died for vs much more being iustified now by his blood we shall be saued by him from wrath For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Sonne much more we being reconciled shall be saued by his life To some these wordes maye appere coÌ„trary to oure purpose for they make meÌ„tion of a reconciliation which is not made but where there is enemitie and dissention But if they be righteously considered they shall most euideÌ„tly proue that which we affirme which is that God loued the membres of Christes bodie euen when they are ignorant when they by them selues are vnworthie and ennemies For this is his first proposition that we being iustified by faith haue peace with God by our Lord Iesus Christ. Where he maketh mention of peace he putteth vs in mynde of the dissension and warre which was betwext gods iustice and oure sinnes This enemitie saieth he is taken away and we haue obteined peace And leâ—t that this comforte shouldâ— sodenly euanish or els that men shoulde not depely wey it he bringeth vs to the eternall loue of God affirming that God loued vs when we were weake Where we must obserue that the apostle speaketh not vniuersally of all men but of such as were and shoulde be iustified by faith â–ª and had the loue of God poured in to their heartes by the holie Gost which was giuen vnto them To such saieth he if God did loue vs when we were weake and his ennemies muche more must he loue vs when we are reconciled and begin in faith to call him father The Apostle affirmeth that oure reconciliation proceded from gods loue which thing sainct Iohan more planely doeth witnes in these wordes In this appereth the loue of God towardes vs that God hath sent furth his onely Sonne into the world that we should liue by him In this I say is loue not that we loued God but that
e same aÌ„d vpoÌ„ y e other yo r ignoraÌ„ce orels malice in corruptiÌ„g y e scriptures THE ADERARIE To proue this similitude good and to shew how much his loue towardes his children excedeth the loue of all creatures towardes their birtâ—es he saieth Can a woman forget the childe of her wombe aÌ„d not pitie the same whom she hath borne And thogh she do forget it yet I will not forget the. Here he speaketh not onely to the elect as some say but also to them which did for sake and dispyse him as there Alas for these disobedient children saieth the Lord that they will take counsell without me Here he calleth the wicked which heape sinne vpon sinne â–ª and were disobedient his chiidren Christ saieth If ye when ye are euill caÌ„ giue your children good giftes how mmch more your heauenlie father After the same manner may I reason with you carelesse by necessitie if none of you thogh y e be euill wold beget a child to miserie how much les wold God which is all good beget and creat man his own image to perpetual paynes Here we may se how much this noghtie opinion is coÌ„trarie to nature and to reason and that it is coÌ„trarie to the worde God willing I will proue If God hath ordeyned the most part of the world to be damned then were his wrath greater theÌ„ his mercie But the scripture witnesseth that his mercie is ouer all his workes and that God is slow vnto wrath and redie vnto mercie so that his wrath is extended onely to the third and fourth generation but his mercie to the thousand generatioÌ„ wherefor thus saieth he A litle whil I haue forsaken thee but with greate mercifulnes shall I take thee vp vnto me Whâ—n I was angrie I hid my face from the for a litle ceason but throughe euerlasting mercie haue I pardoned thee And Dauid saieth his wrath indureth but the twinkling of an eie and his pleasure is in life heuines may well endure for a night But ioy cometh in the morning And so Moises called him a mercifull and gracious God long suffring and keping mercie in store for thousandes By these scriptures and many mo it is euident that gods mercie is greater then his wrath contrarie to their sainges ANSWER How blasphemous be your similitudes your selue may consider if malice haue not vtterly blinded you for I haue all redie proued that God is not bound to the lawes and boundes of nature and how shamefully ye do abuse the scriptures which ye alledge fewe wordes shall declare Ye deny that God doeth speake here to his elect in the place of isaiah the Prophete but to all meÌ„ in generall and euen to those that had forsaken him as ye wold seme to proue by the wordes of the same Prophete spoken â—efore in his thirtie chapiter First I say that those two places do no more agree then do those wordes of Christ spoken after his resurrection Go to my brethren and tell them I passe vp to my father and vnto your father and vnto my God and vnto your God and those which he spake before his death against Capernaum Bethsaida and Corosaim or vnto Ierusalem against whom he pronounced woo and malediction becaus they did not know the tyme of their visitatioÌ„ For in the former place God speaketh to Syon which long had bene waist and to his people which long had bene oppressed And to the end that the reader may better vnderstand how deceitfully ye withdraw and steall the wordes which explain the hole mater I will bring furth the wordes of the Prophete Reioise saieth he â— heauens and reioce thow earth â— you mountanes brest you furth in gladnes for the eternall hath conforted his people and shall haue mercie vpon his poore ones Syon hath said the Lord hath left me and my Lord hath forgotten me May a woman forgett her child that she shall not haue compassion vpon the sonne of hir bosome but let it be that they forget neuertheles I shall not forget the for lo in these my two handes haue I engrafted the and thy walles are for euer before me If these coÌ„fortable wordes were spoken in generall to all men as ye affirme let indifferent men iudge If all men were Sion that long had lyen desolate if all were his people that loÌ„g had bene oppressed in the captiuitie of Babylon If all did so complaine that they thoght God to haue forgotten his league and promes which of mercie he made with them And finally if all haue this promise that their deliueraÌ„ce is ioined with gods infinite power theÌ„ is your application to be approued but if God did make a plaine difference betwext Israel and all nations in the earth if he had chosen his habitation in Syon and if he will kepe promes with the afflicted for his own names sake be they neuer so vnworthie then are ye to bolde to giue the honor and prerogatiue of the children and heires to straÌ„gers aÌ„d bastardes The wordes which ye alledge of the thirtie chapter make nothiÌ„g for your purpose for albeit he speaketh to those that were inobedieÌ„t yea that were treasonable traitours yet had they the name the title yea the honour aÌ„d dignitie of gods people and among them were som of gods chosen children for whose comfort after long affliction susteined in Babylon were those other wordes spoken And so except that ye be able to proue that the people of Israel and the citie of Ierusalem had no greater prerogatiue euen in the time of their greatest blindnes and vnthankfulnes before the comming of Christ Iesus in the fleshe then had other nations ye conclude nothing But yet wonder it is that ye can make no difference betwext the tymes in which the one wordes and the other were spoken The wo was pronouÌ„ced you say alas which the text hath not against them what tyme they had declined from God when they toke counsel of them selues when they could not abide the admonitions of the Prophetes but the comfortable promes of delyueraÌ„ce was made after that vengeance was powred furth vpon the proude contemners and after that the hole bodie was sore tormeÌ„ted by great oppression and long impresonement Do ye not thinke that their might be great alteratioÌ„ in that people within the space of an hundreth yeres for so long was it betwext the daies of the Prophete and the daies of their last captiuitie vnder Nabucadnezer after which tyme also did this former promes of gods remembrance of theÌ„ onely take place Might not the one â—e spoken of those which should be punished yea let it be that they were the reprobate and the other to the people of God to whom by his own holines he had promised deliuerance Do ye thinke that because the same Prophet speaketh bothâ— the sentences that therefor they do appertein to one estate aÌ„d condition of people I haue proued the contrary by Christes plain wordes
all predestinate to lief for as our fall here is to damnation and death so is our staÌ„ding vnto saluatioÌ„ and lief Assuredly these reasons appear meruelous straÌ„ge to me and principally that which ye bring furth of falling and standing for it hath in the self plain contradiction for if we fell in Adam to death how can we stand in him now vnto lief If you had said as that our fall was to damnation and death so should our standing haue ben to saluatioÌ„ and lief ye might haue had som probabilitie For your error had onely stand in this that ye do not conâ—ider that Adam was not created to stand for euer in him self â–ª and much les his posteritie in him But when ye say as our fall is to death so is o r standing vnto lief you plainely speak what so euer ye think that yet either in AdaÌ„ either in our selues we both fall and stand But this do we vtterly abhorre for we fear not plainely to confesse that we haue no assurance either of standing either yet of lief but in Christ Iesus alone in whoÌ„ we be ingrafted and with out whoÌ„ we caÌ„ do nothing In few wordes to repete the answer of your former obiectioÌ„ In AdaÌ„ did no maÌ„ stand otherwise theÌ„ he did But he did staÌ„d w t coÌ„dition to fall and y t eueÌ„ to death Therefor in AdaÌ„ did none staÌ„d to lief The commoÌ„ sense of maÌ„ will approue y e first part of this my argumeÌ„t for who caÌ„ think that any disceÌ„ding of Adam by his meanes could haue greater libertie theÌ„ he hiÌ„ self had And the eueÌ„t aÌ„d that which folowed declareth the veritie of the second part For not onelie vpon Adam saieth the Apostle cam death But eueÌ„ from him descended death vnto all How then could any stand in him to lief Let reasonable men consider To proue that all were predestinat and chosen in AdaÌ„ before the fouÌ„datioÌ„s of the world were laid ye briÌ„g furth the testimony of Paul written in the first chap. to the Ephesians which we before haue entreated and therefor here I onely will open your falshed Wonder it is that shame should be so far past you that where the holie Gost plainely affirmeth that we were elected and chosen in Christe Iesus before the foundations of the world were laid that this election ye should affirm to be made in Adam If you obiect that you specifie not AdaÌ„ I answer that is all a like for of your former argumentes it easely may be espied whom ye vnderstand For when thus ye reason we did all stand in Adam ergâ— we were all predestinat to lief what is he that clearly may not perceaue that your meaning is that we were all predestinat to lief in Adam For els you had said nothing to proue your own purpose For we affirm that we were elected before the foundatioÌ„ of the world was laid But the controuersie standeth in whom We affirme and most coÌ„stantly beleue that in Christe Iesus the eternall Sonne of the eternall Father were we elected before all tymes This ye can not abyde and therefor ye seke all meanes to obscure the glorie of him to whoÌ„ the Father hath geuen all power in heauen and in earth somtymes ye say as now I haue declared that this election was made in Adame But whill that this will not serue you ye run to an other shift alledging that the Apostle speaketh here of a generall election of the hole world and a not of any certen election which should abyd for euer and so in shifting from one danger ye fall into another as after in examining of that your vain reason more euidently shall appere Ye instantly require that we will shew any testimonie of the scripture that hath reprobate any before the fouÌ„dations of the world If it be the pleasure of God to giue vnto you the spirite of wisdom and of reuelation by the knowledge of hiÌ„ self that the eies of your mynd may be illuminated that ye may know what is the hope to the which he hath called you and how rich is the glorie of that inheritance which he hath prepared for his saintes ye shall require no place more plaine nor more euident then the same which most ignorantly orels most maliciously ye do abuse for if there be any differeÌ„ce betwext the saintes the faithfull that be blessed with all spirituall benedictioÌ„ betwext those I say y t were elected in Christe Iesus before all tymes that in tyme be called and by the power of the holie spirite do giue obedieÌ„ce to the caller and so are made citizens with the saintes and houshold of God as they that are builded vpon the foundation of the Prophetes aÌ„d Apostles if any differeÌ„ce I say be betwext these former and these in whom the prince of this world doeth worke all filthynes and rebellioÌ„ whom he holdeth captiue at his pleasure who can not repent their detestable liues and therefor are reputed strangears from the common welth of Israel And further if ye will beleue Christ Iesus affirming and reioising that it pleased his Father to hyde the secretes of his kingdome from the prudent and wife and to reuele the same to litle ones aÌ„d that becaus it was his pleasure I trust ye shall confesse that those scriptures be plaine ynough to proue that as some were elected before the fouÌ„datioÌ„ of the world was laid so likewies were there others reprobated as the finall end of bothe doeth witnes But how ye wrestle against this argumeÌ„t we shall after heare aÌ„d how plainely I haue proued soÌ„ to be elected and others to be reprobated reade before aÌ„d iudge with indiffereÌ„cie If ye will coÌ„clude that God hath no certen election neither yet that he hath reprobated any becaus that he hath no respect of persones and becaus he calleth the world from the rising vp of the son to the going doune of the same becaus he made both small and great and careth as ye falsly alledge for bothe a like your affirmatioÌ„ may well be bolde but I think that your probation shal be sclender But first I must except against you as against fals witnes for you alledge more vpon Elihu theÌ„ in the book of Iob he affirmeth For he saieth not that God careth for all a like But saieth that his eies are vpon the waies of man and that he doeth se all his goinges And that neither you neither any other shall haue occasion to complain of me that vniustly I accuse you of falsifying the plain text I will recite bothe the purpose and the wordes Iob in vehemeÌ„cie of disputation against his thre frendes who constantly did affirm that God prouoked by his sinnes had powred furth those sodane and strange plagues vpon him Iob I say in refelling this their accusation and in confuting their reasons did enter into the secretes of gods inscrutable iudgementes further theÌ„ it became any creature to do and did seme to
proue it to be sothen oght you to be ashamed to burden God with such vnrighteous iudgement Doeth not God rather forgiue the offence alredie committed Let him be your God which condemneth the innocent afore he offend But he shall be my God which perdoneth and forgiueth the offence alreadie committed which in his verie wraithe doeth think vpon mercie And so with Iob will I conclude The great God casteth away no man ANSWER How ignorantly and how impudently ye confounde the eternall purpose of gods reprobation with the iust execution of his iudgementes I haue before declared and therefor here onely resteth to admonishe the reader that most vniustly ye accuse vs in that ye say that we hold and teache that God damned man before he offended This you be neuer able to shew in any of our workes for constantly in worde and writing we affirme that man willingly fell from God and made him self slaue to sathan before that death was inflicted vpon him and so neither make we death the reward of gods ordinance neither do we burden him with vnrighteous iudgement But say with the Apostle that death is the reward of sinne and that our God is righteous in all his workes and therefor be ashamed and repēt your manifest lie That God forgiueth the sin committed and doeth remēber mercie euen when he appereth in his hote displeasure to punishe his Churche with thankes giuing and ioy we acknowledge But that thereof ye cōclud ▪ as ye say w t Iob that the great God casteth away no man we can not cease to admonishe bothe you and the readers that either ignorantly orels maliciously ye corrupt and depraue the minde of the speaker in that place Elihu saieth not as ye alledge The great God casteth away no mā but saieth Behold the mightie God casteth away none that is mightie and valiant of courage He main teneth not the wicked but he giueth iudgemēt to the afflicted And in this behalf your master Castalio who notwithstanding that he vseth to take large libertie in translation where any thing may seme to serue his purpose is more circumspect and more faithfull then you be for thus he translateth that place Althogh that God be excellent yea excellent and strong of courage yet is he not so dissolute y t either he will kepe y e wicked or denie iudgemēt to the poore Althogh I say y t here is a greater libertie thē I wold wish a faithfull translater to vse yet hath he not so corrupted y e sense as ye haue done Elihu reasonīg against Iob affirmeth that albeit y e power of God be infinit yet cā not his workes be vniust but that they are wroght in all perfectiō of iustice how beit that often as we be dull and blinde we do not vnderstand nor se at the first the causes of the same yet God giueth daily declaration of his iustice in that the preserueth and somtyme exalteth the verteouse that before were afflicted and deiecteth from honors the wicked and the cruell oppressors Be iudge your self what this serueth for your purpose THE ADVERSARIE Some other be that grant that sinne was à cause why man is reprobate and there with they hold that gods absolute ordinance is also the caus this saing conteineth cōtradiction in it self for if it be gods absolut ordinance then is it not in respect of any other thing but as they say because it hath so pleased him if they ment that gods ordinance is the cause why sinners suffer death or that God ordeined that sinners for their sinne should suffer death I could agre with them but that were contrary to that which they haue said that God absolutly ordeined any man afore he was yea afore the world to death because so it pleased him for if death be the reward of sinne and for offence and sinne we do die then cometh not death by gods absolute ordinance And if I do grant that both gods absolute ordinance and also sinne are the causes of damnation after your meanyng marke well what inconuenience foloweth thereof first ye must grant me that gods ordinance is the principall and chefest cause for it can not be inferior to any other cause secōdly ye will grant that the first or principale cause called Causa Causae is the cause of the secōd ād inferior cause called cause causate so to cōclude gods ordināce which is Causa causae shal be the cause of sinne which is Causa causata As for a familiar exemple the heate of the son and the dew cause the grounde to be frutefull and God also is the cause thereof for he maketh the barren ground frutefull but forasmuch as God is the principall and first cause he must be also the cause of the same which is but the second cause Thus it is clerely proued that if gods ordināce were the cause of reprobation then gods ordinance should also be the cause of sinne and God should be autor of euill contrarie to the hole scripture contrarie to the opinion of all godlie men and contrarie to our faith But forasmuch as God willing I intend to answer at length to this wicked opinion in the confutation of the third error I will speak no more hereof in this place ANSWER No further answer nedeth to be giuen to these your most vniust accusatiōs then those which we before haue giuen for neither do we so vnreuerētly speake nor write neither yet do we vnderstād nor affirme that gods absolute ordinance is the principall cause of reprobation of sinne and of damnation but simplie we do teache that God in his etternall counsell for the manifestation of his own glorie hath of one maste chosen vessels of honor whom before all tymes he hath geuē vnto Christe Iesus that they in him should receiue lief And of the same masse he hath left others in that corruption in the which they were to fall and so were they prepared to destruction The cause why the one were elected we confesse and knowledge not to be in mā but to be the fre grace and the fre mercie shewed and frely giuen to vs in Christe Iesus who onely is appoīted head to giue life to the bodie Why the others were reiected we affirme the cause to be most iust but yet secrete ād hid frome vs reserued in his eternall wisdome to be reueled at the glorious comming of the Lord Iesus This one thing do we compelled by your blasphemous accusations repete oftener then we wold to the end that indifferent men may se what doctrine it is which you so maliciously impugne How so euer ye ioyn gods absolute ordinance and sinne togither we make so far diuision betwext the purpose and eternall counsell of God for absolute ordinance we vse not in that mater and the sinne of mā that we plainely affirme that mā when he sinned did neither looke to gods will gods counsell nor eternall purpose but did altogither consent to the will of
yet are spokeÌ„ of God vnto Rebecca none of vs denieth but that which ye thereof inferre to witt that therefor they are not to be referred to that sentence which Paul alledgeth before the childreÌ„ were borne and yer they did either good or badd procedeth either of your blind ignoraÌ„ce orels of your malicious despite which agaiâ—st the fre grace of God ye haue conceaued for establishing of your own iustice Trew it is these wordes were spoken by Malachie the Prophete after the reduction of the people frome the captiuitie of Babylon But when we haue a litle considered the scope and purpose of the Prophete then shall we first consider whether he did vnsterstand the loue of God and his hatered to appertein to the two peoples onely and not also to the two original heades And after we shall see whether the mynd and plaine wordes of Paul will suffer and bear your interpretation or not Shortly after that the people of Israel I mean the tribes of Iuda Beniamin and I â—eui were by the miraculous work of God after the bondage of 70. yeres set at libertie and broght againe to Ierusalem in which they did reedifie the temple repaire the walles aÌ„d beginne to multiplie and so to grow to som streÌ„gth within the citie and land they fall to their old nature I mean to be vngrate and vnthankfull vnto God the people were slothfull and the priestes who should haue prouoked the people to the remembrance of those great benefites were become euen like to the rest The Lord therefor did raise vp his Prophete Malachie who was the last before Christ sharply to rebuke and plainely to coÌ„uict this horrible ingratitude of that vnthankfull nation who so shamefully had forgotten those so great benefits recently bestowed vpon them And thus beginneth he his prophecie I haue loued you saieth the Lord in which wordes he speaketh not of a common loue which in preseruing and feding all creatures is commoâ— to the reprobate but of that loue by the which he had sanctified and seperated them from the rest of nations to haue his glorie manifested But becaus they as all vngrate persons do did not consider wherin this his loue towardes them more then towardes others did stand he bringeth them to the fountein demanding this question was not Esau brother to Iacob saieth the Lord and neuertheles Iacob haue I loued and Esau I haue hated and this he proueth not onely by the diuersitie of the two couÌ„treis which were giueâ— to their posterities but also by that that God coÌ„tinually shewed hiÌ„ self louiâ—g to Iacob and to his posteritie reducing them againe after long captiuitie declaring him self as it were ennemy to Edom whose desolation he wold neuer restore but wold distroy that which they shoulde go about to build Let now the godlie reader iudge whether that the mynd of the Prophete was to seclude Iacob in his person from the loue of God and Esau from his hatered or that it was not rather to rebuke the vnthankfulnes of the people who did not consider that vndeserued loue which God did shew to their first father whiles he was yet in his mothers bosome for where he saieth was not Esau brother to Iacob he wold put them in mynd that Iacob had no prerogatiue aboue Esau yea that the was inferior to him as coâ—cerning the law of nature and therefor that he oght to haue bene subiect vnto him but God of fre grace did preferre the yonger to the elder which loue and preferment he constantly did kepe to his sede after him This I am assured can no godlie man denie to be the verey meaning of the Prophete Trew it is that he doeth include both the peoples the one loued and the other hated But what reason is it that the heades shall be secluded seing that the begiÌ„ning of the diuersitie did first appere in them and the Prophete plainely saieth Iacob haue I loued and Esau haue I hated Now to the mind of the Apostle you say that these wordes afore the children were born are not to be referred to the sentence which followeth Iacob haue I loued Esau haue I hated and the cause ye add as we before haue declared I answer that the most iust iudgementes of God are fearefull and your blindnes oght to admonishe all men to examin them selues with what conscieÌ„ce they go to intreate gods secrete mysteries If that sentence before the children were born oght not to be referred to these wordes Iacob haue I loâ—ued and Esau haue I hated I pray you to what wordes oght they to be referred Did the Apostle speak theÌ„ at all aduenture without respect to any thing folowing I trust ye will grant asmuch as God spak to witt that before the children wer born God said The elder shal serue the yonger and then I pray you answer whether ye think that the preferment of Iacob to Esau proceded frome loue or frome hatred or if the subiectioÌ„ of Esau to his brother was not a declaration of gods hatred If you denie yet will the Prophete condemne you as before we haue proued ye can not escaip with the solution which a writer defending fre will giueth which is this That there mention is made onely of temporall and carnal benedictioÌ„ ment vnder the name of loue and of pouertie with barrennes of grounde vnderstand by the name of hatred which solution is so colde that it perisheth in the self for I think no man to be so blynd but that he seeth the mynd of the Apostle to be beÌ„t vpon the spirituall benediction as in his hole disputation is euident But let it be that the corporall benediction which we vtterly exclude not be there vnderstaÌ„d and meÌ„t yet that neither helpeth him nor you for where so euer gods establyshed loue is there is lief where so euer his established hatred is there is death but vpon Iacob and vpon his sede spiritual I mean was established the loue of God as the Prophete affirmeth and our Apostle most pro foundely alledgeth and vpon Esau and vpon his posteritie was established and confirmed the hatred Ergoâ— vpon him and them remained death CoÌ„sider now how that the Apostle after these wordes The elder shall serue the yonger ioyneth this senteÌ„ce as it is written Iacob haue I loued but Esau I haue hated In which wordes the holie Gost agreeth together the wordes of the Prophete and the wordes of God spoken to Rebecca and maketh the one to interprete the other for where God saieth the elder shall serue that expoÌ„deth the Prophete God hated Esau and where he pronounceth dominion to the yonger that the Prophete explaneth saiÌ„g Iacob haue I loued And when did God thus loue the one and hate the other pronouncing the one to be Lord and the other to be seruant While they were yet saieth he in their mothers wombe and before they had either done good or bad Denie now if ye can that the former wordes oght not to be
And in what estate did I leaue you Trie and examin your selues in what estate ye do yet stand you can not be vnsensible you can not be so ignorant but ye must know whether that Christ dwelleth in you or no. If you will acknowledge and coÌ„â—es that Christ dwelleth in you then must ye nedes confes that I am an Apostle For by my labors and preaching did you receaue Christ Iesus And if to deface my labors and to defraud me of that honor which God of his mercie hath giueÌ„ vnto me ye list deny that ether ye receaued Christ Iesus ether yet that he remaineth in you then do ye confes your selues reprobates Paule doth not absolutely define that they were reprobates but putteth in to their choise whether they wold confes that Christ Iesus did remaine in them by faith which they had receaued by the preaching of Paule and so wold admitt him to be an Apostle or to grante that they had nothing to do with Christ and so to confes them selues reprobates Now let the indifferent reader iudge whether that ether faithfully ye cyte the text ether that righteously ye conclude vpon the same The Apostle saieth not except that Christ dwell in you yow are reprobates but saieth as before I haue alledged do ye not know your selues that Christ Iesus is in you except that in som what ye be reprobates And albeit that the wordes were such as ye recite how can you therof conclude Dauid and Adam were reprobates when they sinned seing that Paule in that place maketh mencion of no other sinne except of the denial of Christ to remain in them of their ingratitude towardes him whom God had appointed preacher vnto them and of giuing eare credite to fals Apostles sclaÌ„derers of Christes true messingers â–ª how iustly I might turn Paules wordes vpoÌ„ your heades you easely may espie but all such reasoning I do from my heart abhorre If ye can be able to proue that Adam refused the grace offered or that Dauid did storme against Nathan ether affirming or suspecting him to be a fals prophete then had your argument som probabilitie for onely of such and to suche speaketh the Apostle in that place Thus doth â—ther your ignorance or malice wresting the scriptures against their natiue sense compell me to trouble the reader muche more then I wold if any sinceritie were found in you We do constantly affirme that by the sinne of one man did death enter in to the world for Adam did not onely lose him self but also did with him self wrap all his posteritie in sin death and damnation so that Adam and all his sonnes were in him lost But thereof it doth not follow as ye affirme that therefor they were out of the election from the transgression vnto the promes for as before we haue plainely proued they were elected in Christ Iesus before the foundacioÌ„s of y â— world were laied in whom they did stand elected and beloued euen wheÌ„ they fell in AdaÌ„ at which time y e electioÌ„ which from all eternitie was kept in the counsell of God began to be notified and manifested to mannes knowledge The fall and sinne of man was the way and meanes by the which gods election did appere but was not the cause why that it was destroied And so if with reuereÌ„ce ye coulde consider the mysterie of our redemption in Christ Iesus ye shoulde plainely se that it behoued all to die in Adam that the elect might receaue life in Christ Iesus alone The wordes of Christ Iesus our master rehearsed by the Euangelist S. Iohn ye do shamefully abuse for in that place he intreateth not whether a sinner duriÌ„g the time of his blindnes and sinne is appointed to damnation or not nether yet whether such as before haue had knowledge as Adam and Dauid had be altogether void of faith by reason of sinne after committed None of these two poiâ—tes I say doth our Master in that place intreat But vnto Nichodemus he plainely declareth that the cause of life is faith and the cause of condemnation is incredulitie and vnbe leif Not that Christ Iesus affirmeth that euerie man that is vnfaithfull at any tyme is or shal be condemned for God hath wrapped all vnder vnbelief y t he may haue mercie vpoÌ„ all as S. Paul confesseth him self to haue bene a persecuter and vnfaithfull But the true meaning of Christ is y t such as dispyse y e light offered remaine invnbelief to y e eÌ„d haue their condemnation alredie appointed as contrary wise who so euer with full obedience do steadfastly beleue the same shall haue the life euerlasting not withstanding the manifest tran sgressions of the law The rest of this part is be fore answered and thereforâ— I will not with repeticion trouble the reader for ye be neuer able to proue that Adame and Dauid were so out of the loue of God that he did not loue them in Christ his Sonne in whom they were elected Dauid was no suche mankiller as was Cayn of whom Saint Iohn speaketh who delited in blood to the end Nether did NathaÌ„ shew nor Dauid pronounce any suche iudgemeÌ„t against him self as ye imagin but being conuicted in in his own conscience how horribly he had offended he did heare not withstanding that ioyfull sentence The Lord hath taken a way thy sinne thow shalt not die c. Which sentence no doubt proceded frome that immutable loue w c was reserued to him in Christ Iesus euen when he was fardest declined from God It will be hard for you to proue by euident scriptures that Dauid was altogither void of faith but granting that he as concerning his own sense and feling was vtterly dead yet doth it not thereof follow that so he displeased God that he fell from the loue and fauor of God as touching his electioÌ„ for the Apostle vpon whose wordes ye seme to grounde your reason meaneth not that the lack of faith in all persons at all tymes and in all respectes doth so displease God that he hateth them and reiecteth them to death euerlasting For childreÌ„ for a tyme lacke faith and yet Crist pronounceth that their Angelles do se the face of his father and that the kingdoÌ„ of heauen apperteineth to such Thomas was vnfaithfull euen after Christes resurrectioÌ„ And yet did he not so displease his maister as before we heaue touched but that he did sekeâ— him and did remoue his incredulitie And Christ Iesus did rebuke the vnbelief of his disciples and the hardnes of their heartes but yet did he not vtterly dispyse them But now to the rest ADVERSARIE But if the scripures will not satisâ—ie you then must you be beaten with your own râ—d for if I grante you that all men did not fall out of gods holie election unto coÌ„dennation by Adams traÌ„sgressâ—on it followeth therupon that the coÌ„ming of Christ his procious death and passioâ— is superfluous vaine and of none effecte So by your
you wold affirme y t gods good wil pleasure may change and y t is to deny his Godhead But I will burden you no further then ye shall plainely confesse I onely put you in minde that y e holy Gost vseth no such phrase You procede saing Nether is it his pleasure aÌ„d will that ether pharaâ— Semei or any other should sinne and come to destruction Before we haue confessed y t iniquitie and sinne is so odious before God y t in it can his goodnes neuer delyte nether yet can he haue pleasure in the destruction of any creature hauing respect to y e punishment onely But seing y t gods glorie must nedes shyne in all his creatures yea euen in y e perpetuall damnation of sathan torment of the reprobate why shal not he wil and take pleasure y t so it come to passe Albeit your phrenetique braines can not comprehend y e brightnes therof yet wil he one day declare y t al his workes are wroght in iustice wisedom and equitie I thinke you will not deny but that pharao Semei Iudas and others came to destruction like as in the end shall all reprobate do Then do I aske if God at no time for no purpose respect nor end did so will how then came their destruction to passe By sinne say you that we denie not but yet the questioÌ„ is not answered For continually we demand if in God there was not power ether to haue impeded their sinne or yet after their sinne to haue called them to repentance if it had so pleased his eternal wisedom and goodnes Consider your foly and giue glorie to God who doth what so euer he will in heauen and in earth But now to that which foloweth For he will the death of no creature but will all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of the trueth How violeÌ„tly you wrest the wordes of the Prophet and of the Apostle shall shortly appere after I haue reasoned a litle with you how these your propositions do agree with that which goeth before Ye haue affirmed that God is ready to mercie and slow to wrath in which wordes you â—hew and cofesse that in the God head there is readines to â—hew mercy and also that there is a iustice w c must execute wrath vpoÌ„ the disobedient And so in the nature of y e God head ye cofesse mercy ad iustice But here you say that God will the death of no creature but that he will all men to be saued which last wordes being vnderstand as ye do vrge them must destroy the former nature of God take awaye his iustice For if he absolutely will the death of no creature then will he no punishment to folowe sinne And if he will no punishmeÌ„t then willeth he his iustice to cease and so coÌ„sequently must one of the properties of his godlie nature cease Studie for an answere to make your former wordes and latter wordes better agree orels ye wil be compelled to coÌ„fesse that God for som respect willeth both death and damnation to come vpon some creatures Further if God willeth all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of the trueth and yet many do perâ—sh in ignoraÌ„ce and shal be condemned as Christ Iesus doth pronounce then must it ether folow that gods will is mutable and so he vnconstant and not at all times like to him self or els that he is not omnipotent For if God at the first creation of man wold all men to be saued as ye alledge then wold I know when this will was changed After that man had offended say you Then yet haue I obteined that in gods will there was mutabilitie For after sinne he wold and by his sentence pronounced that Adam and his posteritie should suffer the corporall death yea and that the sede of the serpent should haue the head broken downe by the which is ment the spirituall death which nether of both as you affirme did God will before If you reply gods will towardes the saluation of all mankind did remaine the same after sinne which was before for a generall promes of deliuerance was made by the womans sede that was promised I haue before plainely proued that difference most manifest betwext y â— two sedes was made in that promes But admitting that the promes had bene generall so that the will of God this day remaineth the same which ye alledge it to be to witt that he willeth y e death of no sinner but that he willeth al men to be saued Can you deny but that a separation and diuision of the shepe from the goates of the elect from the reprobate shal be made at the glorious commiÌ„g of y e Lord Iesus Shall not these most ioyfull wordes be said vnto theÌ„ y t shall stand vpon the right hand Come ye the blessed of my father possesse the kingdome which was prepared for you from the beginning And shall not this most fearefull sentence be pronounced and executed against the other Depart ye cursed go to the fire prepared for the deuill and for his angels Shall the Sonne of God in pronouncing senteÌ„ce do any thing that day repugning to the will of his heauenly Father I think you will not so affirme Then if gods will in the day of iudgement shal be that many shal be adiudged to tormeÌ„t perpetual and his will in the creation of man was and this day yet remaineth that all men shal be saued then of necessitie it doth folow that gods will shall change If you say that death and damnation cometh not by gods will but by the sinne and vnbelief of man you haue releued your self nothing for if death be one thing and life be an other damnation one thing and saluation an other TheÌ„ if God this day will all men to be saued and so to haue life and yet that day he shall will many to be damned to torment perpetuall what causes so euer you alledge I shall obteine one of two to witte that ether gods will is and may be mutable orels that there is a power superior to his maiestie and godly will For if willingly he shall damne those whom before he wold and had determined to saue then is his will and determination changed And if he shall damne those vnwillingly whoÌ„ willingly he wold haue saued then is he not omnipotent Consider now vpon whom falleth the snowe and who do cast them selues in greatest absurdities Now it resteth to declare how violently ye wrest the wordes of the Prophet of the Apostle The Prophete speaking in the personne of God saith I will not the death of a sinner but rather that he conuert and liue And the Apostle affirmeth that God will all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of the trueth Hereupon ye conclude God will the death of no creature this is your first violence which you do to the text For the Prophet
to perdition which ende was appointed vnto them not against gods will but by his will â—mmutable in his eternall counsell For no lesse will he that the seueritie of his iudgementes be sene in the vessels of wrath theÌ„ that the riches of his grace be praised in the vessels of mercie Storme and rage spew furth your venom and blaspheme till ye prouoke gods vengeance at once to be powred forth vpon your owne heades this sentence will he neuer retracte He will haue mercie vpon whom he will haue mercy and whom he will he maketh hard hearted That God in him selfe hath but one will which is holy iust and permanent that in him there is no contraritie that he is faithfull and doth perfourme what soeuer he doth promise What we vnderstand by gods secrete will and how he tempteh no man I haue before sufficiently declared And therefore I will not truble the reader with the repetitioÌ„ of the same Now let vs heare what is your iudgement of vs and how ye extolle your selues THE ADVERSARIE As these goddes be of contrarie nature so do they begette children of a contrarie nature the fals God begetteh vnmercifull proud ambicrouse and enuifull children bloody persecutors of others for their conscience saik euill speakers â—mpacient contenciouse and seditious children And they be like vnto their father in that they speake one thing with their mouth and think an other with their heart They can neuer be without filthy thâ—ghtes wicked 〈◊〉 for such poyson do they receaue of their father The trew God begetteth mercifull humble lowlye and louing children abhorring from blood persecuting no man good speakers patient detesting all 〈◊〉 chiding and brawling and they be like vnto their father in that what soeuer they speak with their mâ—uth they think with their heart they be alwaies moued with good thoghtes and gâ—dly reuelations for such grace receaue they 〈…〉 of their father ANSWER It may seme by the description of these your two goddes for nether of both as ye describe them is the true liuing eternall God that ye studie to renew the daÌ„nable error of the Manichies who imagined two beginners the one of all goodnes and of all good creatures the other of all iniquitie and of wicked creatures affirming further that the good and the mercifull God was ouercome for a time by him that was wicked and euill And because that the plaine scriptures did confute these blasphemâ—es therefor did they denie the authoritie of Moises and the certentie of all other scriptures that made any thing against their error If manifestly ye did take vpon you the defense of those your fathers as that ye do of Pellagius of Donatus and of the Papistes for of all these adulterous fathers ye be adulterous children then wolde I from Augustine whom God stirred vp no doubte in the daies of darckenes most learnedly and most plainely by infallible scriptures to cofute those heresies from him I say I might take artilerie all ready prepared able inough to ouerthrow your buildinges and munitions appere they neuer so strong But because as before I haue said my purpose is not to burden you further then you do confesse I onely admonish the reader to be ware of such pestilences as beginne to call the trueth of God reueled in his holy word in doubt and do persuade men to credite dreames and reuelations how soeuer they appere to repugne to that which is reueled in the word Of such men I say â–ª oght Christes flock to take hede as also of those who make of eguall authoritie such bookes as yet the holy Gost hath neuer coÌ„mended to the Church of Christe with these that are written by Moises the Prophetes the Euangelistes and Apostles and that by inspiration of the holy Gost. That some of you be infected with this most pestilent poison I am able to proue by mo argumentes then one Being at London the the winter before the death of king Edward one â–ª of your faction required secrete communication of me in which after that earnestly he had required of me closenes and fidelitie because that the maters that he had to communicate with me were so weightie and of such importance as sythence the daies of the Apostles the like was neuer opened vnto man In the ende after many wordes which I nether gladly heard nether yet will now write he gaue me a boke written as he said by God euen as well as was any of the EuaÌ„gelistes This his booke he adiured me as it were to reade and required to haue my iudgement of it My answer was that at his request I wold reade it so that he wold be coÌ„tent to reason with me of the chiefe pointes in the same conteined but to pronounce sentence or iudgement that could I not vsurpe being but one man farre inferior to many of my brethern y e preachers of gods word in that realme Alwaies he vrged me to reade his booke And I woÌ„dering what mysteries it should coÌ„teine called to me a faithfull brother who then as pleased God was present with me named HeÌ„ry Farrour marchaÌ„t to whom I opened the mater by whose counsell and in whose presence I beganne to reade his boke The first proposition wherof was God made not the world nether yet the wicked creatures in the same conteined but they had their beginning from a nother that is from the deuill who is called the Prince of the world which proposition plainly repugning to gods word I did impugne and begaÌ„ne to declare vnto him for what cause Sathan had that title to be called the Prince of y e world But he vtterly denying ether to reasoÌ„ and dispute ether yet to be reformed in any point that there was written commaÌ„nded me to reade forward to beleue howbeit I did not vnderstand To whom when I had gentilly said Can any reasonable man will me to beleue thinges directly fighting against gods veritie and plaine word reueled Tusch said he for your written word we haue as good and as sure a word and veritie that teacheth vs this doctrine as ye haue for you and your opinioÌ„ And theÌ„ I did more sharpely answere saing ye deserue the death as a blasphemous person and denier of God if ye preferre any word to that which the holy Gost hath vttered in his plaine scriptures At which wordes he toke pepper in nose and snatching his boke furth of my hand departed after he had thus spoken I will goo to the ende of the world but I will haue my boke confirmed and subscribed with better learned men then you be In me I coÌ„fesse there was greate negligeÌ„ce that nether did reteine his boke nether yet did present him to the Magistrate But yet this argument I haue that your faction is not altogether cleane from the heresie of the Manichies I could name and point forth others who labour in the same disease but so long as their venom doth remaine secrete within them selues I am