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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A15978	[A notable discourse, plainelye and truely discussing, who are the right ministers of the Catholike Church written against Calvin and his disciples, ... with an offer made by a Catholike to be a learned Protestant ... .]; Marques de la vraye église catholique. English	Albin de Valsergues, Jean d', d. 1566.; Rishton, Edward, 1550-1586, attributed name. aut; Allen, William, 1532-1594.	1575 (1575)	STC 274; ESTC S112318	85,201	271

other goddes and therefore that he did counsel the sayde Caesar quietly to retyre himselfe and to make no more adoe the verses are these Me puer Hebraeus diuos deos ipse gubernans Cedere sede iubet tristemque redire suborcum Aris ergo dehinc tacitus abscedito nostris ¶ The .21 Chapter THus you see that Iesus christ was anounced among the gentiles before the cōming of the Apostles who notwithstanding this dyd not let to set forth the doctrine that they wer sent to preache with many notable miracles although they did not reach but that doctrine that was verye ancient And although that their doctrine was newe and vnknowen to the Gentiles yet you cannot alleage that it was so vnto the Iewes for they being studied learned in Moyses lawe they hearde nothing of the Apostles but had bene prophecied by the Prophetes Doeth not S. Paule say at the beginning of his Epistle to the Romanes that he was seperated to preache the Gospel the which God promised by the holye Scriptures S. Peter talking with the Iewes doeth geue them plainelye to vnderstande that his was no newe doctrine because that he did preach Iesus Christe of whom Moyses had prophecied longe before saying thus God shall rayse a Prophete among your brethren you shall obey him as you doo me and he that doth refuse it shal be put to death S. Peter saith afterwarde All the prophetes that haue beene from Samuell vnto this time doo announce vnto you these dayes that is to saye the doctrine that we doo preache That that the Apostles did preach vnto the Iewes that is to wit the remissiō of their sinnes by the death and passion of Christe it was no newe thing for as S. Peter sayde vnto Cornelius All the Prophetes haue witnessed that these that beleue in him shall obteyne remission of their sins for it had bene so prophecied by Esay cap. 55. vnto the people aboue .800 yeres saying that he had layed vpon his sonne all oure iniquities as it doeth appere in his booke in the which he doth shew him selfe more an Euangelist then a Prophete for there he doth write the torments of our Sauiour euen as if he had bene present at his passiō Dauid likewise doth talk of the like where he doeth mention the extreme affliction of our Redeemer and of the gal the Isope and the Vinager Daniel did not onely discrye the death of our Sauiour but therewithall the verye time that he shoulde come And to be briefe all the Prophetes haue announced vnto the Iewes that that the Apostles did preache vnto them Nowe if we desire to knowe why this olde doctrine preached aswell to the gentiles as to the Iewes by the Apostles was confirmed with many miracles which they did in the name of God who sent them the cause is this the deuill had so obscured and hidden the truth ouer all nations that superstitious Idolatrye had taken place in steede of the true seruice of God so that the poore Painims did not put their trust in one God but in a multitude of goddes And in like maner the true religion geuen by god to the Israelites had ben troubled and almoste cleane abolished by the traditions of the Scribes and Pharises in the which they did truste for the iustification and remission of theyr synnes The like doo you reporte of vs and of your great curtesye yee are content to matche vs with the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous Paynims plating your selues in the degree of the pure Gospellers and the true children of God taking vppon you the Succession of the Apostles and calling youre Congregation the true Catholike and Apostolicall Churche This soundes notablye well but seeing that youre cause is absolutelye to refourme the Churche as they didde preaching the auncient doctrine of God as they did and dealing with superstitious Idolaters that cleaue more to the traditions of menne then vnto the pure worde of god as the Iewes Seing thē that our case is reported vnto the similitude of the Iewes and yours to the Apostles Prophetes howe comes it to passe that you doo not as they did seeing that you are sent from one master Why doo ye not make your commission appere by signes and miracles seeing that God hath euer done the like heretofore when he hath sent the like Commission to yours ¶ The .22 Chapter YOu doo coniure vs by the name of the liuing God to receaue youre Gospell and pure word of God or els you doo threaten vs that you will shake off the dust of your feet in testimonie against vs because that wee will not beleue your wordes But in this matter ye doo alleage a wronge text for we were very simple if we shoulde forsake or remoue the foundation of our Churche vppon suche an occasion as I will shewe by this discourse that doeth folowe I am sure that you are not ignorant howe that Luther after he began to preache his Gospell was not founde barren for immediatlye after his beginning he did ingender another Gospeller that is to wyt Andrew Coralstadius and from thence was produced another called Zuinglius of Zuinglius Oecolampadius Then Thomas Muncerus considering that he had no lesse the gifte of the spirite then the rest he began to forge a newe Gospell of the Anabaptists with the which he thought to gratifye the Towne of Milhouse who had receaued alreadie the Gospell of Luther But the Senate of that Towne being weried alreadye with to many straunge Gospels they aduertised Luther your fyrste Apostle of it And he wrote to them againe that Thomas Muncerus ought not to be receaued if he could not proue his vocation by some miracle And if you demaunde where I haue founde this I saye to you not in the workes of some lying Papist but in the Commentaryes of youre deere Historiographer master Sleydon who hath so good a grace in his writing and is so moued with the trueth of his spirite that he doth omit nothing in his Historie but that that doeth go agaynst himselfe and the professours of his religion I doo wishe those that doo vnderstande the Latine to reade this aunswere of Luther in the Commentaries them selues and for the rest I will set it forth translated not by me but by a minister of youre owne sect called Robert Preuost who dwelleth in a segnorie of Berne According to his translation the wordes are these Luther was of opinion that the Senate of Milhouse should do very well and wisely to demaunde of Muncer who had geuen him commission to teache and who had called him vnto it If he say that it is God let them demaunde of him to shewe some signe or miracle to proue his vocation and yf he could not do it that they should banishe him for it is common to God to declare his will by some miracle at any time when he will haue the common custome and order chaunged These are the wordes of Luther We ought to yeelde that

or some other kynde of wilde fruite the tree can beare no other but Crabbes or wyldinges Euen so we Chrystian persons who are the trees of God planted by the pleasaunt fountayne of his grace and purged with the holy water of Baptisme to beare fruite at our season so that we take euer to prospet withall the dewe of his grace that planted vs I meane the fayth of our Sauiour Iesus Christe so long we beare good fruite as it is sayd before alleaging the 3. of S. Iohn yll vnderstoode by Iouinian He that is borne of God doth not sinne for the generation of God doth preserue him the enimy of our health shal not touche him And in the sayde Chapter he sayth agayne All men or euery man that is borne of God doth not sinne for the seede of God is in him and he can not sinne because he is borne of god By this it is not ment that Baptisme the which he doth cal the beeing borne of God doth take away from man the power or libertie to do euyl for if he wyl degenerat from the grace that he hath receaued by the Sacrament of regeneration that in steede of growing graft vpon the stocke of the loue of God which is the true life that he will fructifie towards his death and destruction in this case he is no more the sonne of God for as Christe sayth If ye be the children of Abraham do the works of Abraham But as he doth cōtinue and hath this good wyl which was taught by the Angel vnto the Shepheards that he doth continue hauing the grace that was inspired in him by the holy ghost at his baptisme so long he doth not sinne vnto eternal death for the generation of God that is to say the grace receyued by this holy Sacrament doth so defend him that the diuel can not persecute him to death being not able to preuayle agaynst him and as long as this good seede which is the word of god doth dwel in him he cannot sinne and if he did sinne the sede would no longer remaine in him The holy ghost sayth The wise man shal refuse the hypocrite and dissembler and shal depart from the vayne and craftie cogitations and therefore the grace of God and sinne can not dwel togeather nor we oughte not thinke S. Iohns wordes straunge in that he sayth That he that is borne of God doth not sin for it is as much to say as that one can not serue two masters and that he that serueth god can not serue the diuel For S. Paul sayth You can not assist at the Table of god and of the diuel altogether for what communication is there betweene Iustice and Iniquitie or betweene Iesus Christ Belial And he that doth loue this world declareth him selfe an enemy vnto god And a little before he had sayd He that doth commit sinne is the sonne of the deuil the which doeth not affyrme that a sinner cannot be the sonne of God if he repent and do penaunce but in the meane while he that is in actuall sin or hath a minde to doo euil is as then not the sonne of God but the sonne of the deuill The good tree doeth not beare yll fruite for although the fruit doo rot or perishe vpon the tree that corruption doeth not proceede of the tree but of the wormes byrdes or of some other kinde of vermine therefore when they saye that by the fruite we shall knowe the tree and by the workes the faith this ought to be vnderstood when the fruite doth ripe in season that it hath the naturall humour and propertie of the tree And in a man that he haue the influence of the true fayth and not otherwise for euen as the rotten fruite hanging vppon the tree doth not digresse nothing from the good Stocke euen so the yil workes of vs that are Christians ought not to stayne our holy and Catholike religion For the corruption of our yll fruites commeth of our selues and not of our religion the whiche doth defende vs from doing that we do I meane to sweare to blaspheme to commit adultery to doo anye man wronge or to offende God any way He that doeth desyre then by the fruit to knowe whether the tree of our religion be good he ought not to bende his eyes to looke vpon the rotten fruite as if that were sufficient to proue the goodnes of the tree but let him looke vppon the good fruites Suche are all the Doctours aswell of the Greeke as Latine Churche so manye good Emperours and vertuous Kinges Princes Dukes and erles which haue reigned in France Spayne Germany and Englande and ouer all the worlde and haue dyed in the fayth leauing their workes to bear witnes of their good fruites The which haue buylded so many fayre hospitals to helpe and releue the poore so many goodly Colleges to enterteyne fatherles children at their bookes so many foundations workes for the common wealth and that haue buylded so manye sumptuous Abbeys and houses of Religion the whiche you with your godly zeale haue not only robbed spoyled but that that is more odious you haue pulled thē cleane down to deface the memory of our Auncesters and to acquite al these which are notable monumentes you brag of the good deedes that your good Christians doo which are much like vnto the gaynes of those that vse to cogge at dise for although they winne much it is neuer seene or like the Iewes whiche to color their horrible cruelty in putting our Sauiour vniustly to death they went and bought with the money that they gaue to Iudas a field to bury the dead And so you hauing robbed spoyled from the religious houses and Abbeyes more then you are able to restore you thinke to acquite it all with geuing a litle to the poore No no these deuises are but vaine yf by the fruite the tree be knowen as Christe sayth let them that haue any iudgement looke vpon the fruit of our trees and then iudge whether they be good or no. ¶ The .36 Chapter NOwe seing that you haue visited our gardein If a man may be so bolde I pray lend vs the keyes that we maye in like maner visite yours that we may see the fruits of your religiō Reade all the histories writtē frō the Passion of Christe to our dayes and you shall fynd that all those sects that haue left our Romane Churche haue done more mischiese in one yere being seperated from the said Church then they did in an hundred yeres before But because our meaning is not to recite all the acts of your predecessors enemies to the Catholike church it shall suffise to make a short discourse of those that haue bene of late dayes I meane the Bohemians or Hussites whose folowers you doo affyrm your selues to be for in your godly booke of Martyrs you haue placed Iohn Hus as the fyrste Martyr of your auncient Church who was

doest thou O Apelles remoue my landes And a litle after he sayeth The place is mine I haue bene thus long time in possession and before thee I haue good title and euidence to mainteine my right of those to whom it did appertayne which lefte it me by inheritaunce from the Apostles etc. Our Churche of Fraunce which is one of the principall members of all the Catholike Churche might with good cause say vnto you the like And I praye what would you answere you cannot denye but that aboue a thousand yeres before ye were borne that the fayth in which ye were baptized and the which you haue falselye denied was planted I doo not saye in this onelye kingdome of Fraunce but ouer all Christendome If you pretende anye right to the contrary shewe the reason of your possession by the euidence of the auncient doctours and after come to demaund it as I haue saide before I meane that you should yeld the ecclesiasticall gouernment which you haue vsurped in manye places with to great libertie of conscience licence to doo euill which is the very death of the soule as Saint Augustine doth say epist. 166. And after that ye haue restored Fraunce to his olde estate then there wil be more apparaunce of the matter that ye are sent to preache the true worde of God then there is now But in this estate that ye are although that God had geuen you commission the which he neuer thought he would haue called it backe because of your noble actes Theodosius and Arcades whiche in old time were Emperours of Rome L. si quis in tantam cod vnde vi did establish or make an Edict that if the true owner or lorde of a thing should vse any force or to seeke by the waye of violence without staying for the sentence of the Iudge to get possession of his owne from another man yea although the other had no right to it he shoulde not onely lose the possession but likewise the propertie but if it were founde that he that did enter by force had no right to the Mannur he should not onely be depriued of it but moreouer he shoulde be condemned to geue as much more of his owne vnto him against whom he had vsed the force as the thinge was valued at that he sought to vsurpe If one shoulde call you my masters the newe refourmed Gospellers to such a reckening ye might well packe vp your pipes and transporte your fidelye into another countrey for you shoulde haue no other remedie but to runne awaye with the goodes and preache pouertie ¶ The .16 Chapter FOr your defence you alleage no other reason but youre good zeale and your ardent Apostolical affection the which hath moued you to sowe this seede of sedition You saye that the fielde is great and there are fewe good reapers but if you marke that that doth folowe afterwarde and to take the counsaile of the wise Christe doeth not commaunde therefore that euerye one shoulde take his sickle and goe and cut downe other mennes corne But he sayeth Praye the master of the worke to the ende that he sende more woorkemenne to his vine He doeth teache vs that if we see anye estate out of order we shoulde praye to God to redresse it And in the meane time we ought to correct and amend our own liues for if euery man were for him selfe God would be for vs all Yet notwithstanding this it is not reasonable that vnder the colour of a good zeale a seruant shoulde take in hand an acte of so great importance without expresse commaundement of his master as it is saide But now that we are come to talke of your good zeale if it please you let vs knowe if those ardent flames of charitie haue so inflamed you that you haue ouerthrowen the Chaires of the negligent Pastors and Bishops and in their roomes ye haue collocated your ministers in euery place where ye could beare any swaye as it doeth appere in many townes and Cities in this Realme I doo not doubt but that you will doo the best that ye can to doo the like with the rest I mean aswell Temporall as Spiritual For euē as God of whom ye speake so often doeth make no exception of persons euen so you that call your selues his Lieuetenants wil make no difference betwene the euyl estates the good Euery one doth know that the administration of iustice is very honourable before God and that there be many in this vocation that would not for any thing do any wrong vnto the widowe fatherlesse childe and yet we see and knowe by experience that ther are many others that without any conscience doe take brybes and offer wrong both to the fatherles and to the widowe the whiche crimes are no lesse in that estate then the careles liuing of the Bishops and Pastors So that I thinke by this that he that hath geuen you charge and power to turne the Byshops out of their seates the Curates out of their benefices and the Monkes Abbots out of their Abbeys because of their euil liuings would likewise extende your commission to put downe Lordes Knightes Iudges and Gentlemen because of the corrupt liues of many of them And to make an ende of the reformation your holy Ghoste and those zealous flames of the spirite woulde moue you to goe a litle higher for there is nothing done but the spirite may amend it Against the great trees striue the great windes and against great dignities great abuses It is not vnknowen to all mē that ther are good and godly Catholike princes and kinges whiche are surely to the people the great giftes of God but likewise one cannot denye but that there hath beene and are diuers ill princes that do gouerne their people carelesly and without Iustice And if by chaunce your Gospell shuld fal into some kingdom wher the prince were not so sage nor so wise as you would haue him in your conscience what wold you do to him I think that that very zeal if you could that hath moued you vnder the coulor of a refor Gospell to trouble so muche our state woulde likewise commaunde you to dispossesse those kinges that do abuse their owne kingdoms euen aswel as to depriue those Bishoppes that doo abuse their bishoprickes But O Lorde what a Gospell is this if it be permitted that the people shall call their princes to accompt or that they may correct their superiours vnder the color of a reformed gospel what seditions troubles warres shal we see ouer al Christendome we shal see fulfilled to our great harme the prophecie of Esay who saieth The people shall seeke to rayse one against another and euerye one against his neibour the yong man shal disdain the old and the ignoble the noble etc. But what coulor soeuer ye cloke your new gospel withal ye run far wide frō him that doth cōmaund vs to obeye all creatures for the loue of God.

He doeth not regarde whether they doo acquite their charge or no for the obedience of the inferiours is not limitted by the duty of the superiours All power doth come of God sayth the Apostle and he that resisteth that power doth resiste the ordinance of God and they that doo with say it acquire for them selues dānation for euer He doth make no distinction of persons whether it be a Magistrate Ecclesiastical or temporal whether it be a king or a Pope a Bishop or a Lorde he doth talke generally of al powers that are established by God to make vs liue in peace tranquilitie God had not chosen of his good wil Caesar the Emperour of Rome to be king of Ierusalē as he did choose Saul Dauid Salomon and the rest for of his owne ambition and vnsaciable cupiditie he had vsurped the kingdome apperteyning to the house of Dauid yet our Sauiour did commaund that they should pay him tribute Math. 22. The whiche commaundement he him selfe did fulfyl to teache others obedience God did like wise permit that the wicked king Nabuchodonozor shuld destroy the kingdome of Hierusalem to punishe the wickednes of those that dwelt in it And although he had inuaded the kingdome of Iuda to the which he had no title nor right yet doth god protest that he gaue it him and he wylleth and doth commaund that they should obey him euen as yf he were the best prince of the world Beholde sayth God by the Prophet Ieremie Cap. 27. you shal tel your Lordes that I make the earth the men and the beastes that walke on the face of the earth through my great strength and mightie arme and I haue geuen it to whom it pleaseth me And so nowe I haue geuen al these Lands and countreys to Nabuchodonozor my seruant king of Babylon Besides this I haue geuen him the beastes and the feelds to serue him his sonne and his sons son vntill the time of his earth come also of him many people and great kinges shal com and shal ordein that the kingdome or the people that shall not serue Nabuchodonozor kinge of Babilon I will visite that people saith the lord with the sworde pestilēce and hunger vntill that I consume them in his handes etc. But if you my masters the newe reformers of the Gospell had ben in those dayes what would haue bridled your burning zeale Coulde ye not with a litle better cause report of Nabuchodonozor that that ye report of the Pope for who is that Nabuchodonozor that wee shoulde submit our selues vnto him He is not a king he is not a Tiraunt he is not an Emperoure but a Robber a Cutthrote more cruell then any kinde of wilde beaste Is it not by him that the Prophetes haue represented the spoyler of nations for God when he woulde cause Esaye to talke of the fall of Lucifer he doeth discrye it vnder the person of Nabuchodonozor then howe will you haue vs to submitte our selues to be subiect vnto him whom God doeth liken not onelye to a deuill but to the Captayne of all the deuilles of hell Manye causes doo perswade vs not to obey him Firste his wicked and abhominable life Secondlye our religion for we beleeue in God that created heauen and earth but as for him he is more then a woorshipper of Idoles for he is one that called him selfe a god Thirdelye he is not of the line of Dauid by whom God hadde promised to establishe his Kingedome for he was a straunger and suche a one as got into the kingdome by force making him selfe a king not by righteous election but by violent compulsion so that considering all these things ye might well according to your zeale haue found fault with his raigne but god would haue stopped your mouthes saying as I haue written aboue I haue created al things and I giue them to whom it pleaseth me Or as he saith in Iob It is I that cause Hypocrites to reigne to punish the sinnes of the people Or as he sayth in the. 4. of Daniel I haue the preheminence ouer the kingdomes of men and I geue thē to whom it pleaseth me And he that speaketh agaynst him that is put in authoritie although he be as euyl as Nabuchodonozor he shal perishe thorough the sworde famine or pestilence or that that is worse through eternall death These are the very wordes that god spake by the Prophet and therfore sayth Christ Come vnto me and learne in my schole for I am humble and mylde of hart I haue obeyed Pylate and Annas and Cayphas I haue suffered the sentence of death and haue bene nayled betweene two theeues and I toke it paciently for your sakes Learne of me to be my disciples in the schoole of humilitie and you shal find rest in your spirites The which true rest in deede is for euery man to examine diligently his owne conscience and to commit to God the consciences of his Superiours ¶ The .17 Chapter ANy man may easilye perceaue by this discourse that you haue no great reason in saying that that you say much lesse to doo that that you preache I meane to beginne the reformation of the Church by the way of force the which is a thing contrarye to all lawes diuine and humane which defende that one shoulde be Iudge in his owne cause and you will not onely be a Iudge but a partie resembling in this him that gaue the blowe to Christe vnto whom the aunswere was made If wee haue done yll proue it before the Iudge seeing that you are our accusers If you saye that God hath geuen you power to knowe to iudge and to exempt that is to saye to driue vs out of our possession and to cause the people to forsake that religion which they haue mainteyned these 1500 yeres and vpwardes shew vs your commissiō with as sure a warrant as so great a matter doth require seeing that you saye that ye are sent extraordinarily as Moyses was to redeme the children of Israel out of the captiuity of Egipt that is to sai according vnto your interpretation the children of God and the true faithful out of the false religion of the Papists of that which the Pope Antichriste worse then Pharao is the head and master Thus ye vse to expound and morali●●te the figures of the olde Testament in fauoure of the Catholike Churche yet is it so that when God spake vnto you about so zealous a thing as this ye forgat one thing that doeth hinder greatlye youre Commissiō You should haue shewed god that the Commissiō which he gaue you was like to breede no lesse mischief amongst the Papistes then Moyses did among that Egiptians For I am sure if any to try you wold take your othe that you woulde sweare that the Pope is as yll as Pharao and we as harde hearted as the Egyptians Therefore why did ye not demaund of him a Rodde to conuert into a Serpent and to