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B13698 A dialogue or conference betweene Irenæus and Antimachus, about the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England: by Samuel Gardiner, Doctor of Diuinitie Gardiner, Samuel, b. 1563 or 4. 1605 (1605) STC 11575; ESTC S102819 49,951 71

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But the Apostles wisedom thought it behoofefull that both by sayings and signes they should be lessoned in their duties Antimachus Is there no other vse of the garmentes but this Irenaeus Pithagor as giueth me this vse beside that the linnen garment putteth me mind of my first estate before sin came into the world that I should labour what I might to recouer that againe as the wollen weed doth set before mine eyes the miseries of this present life of sin of death the wages of sin due vnto vs all by the fall of Adam For you cannot haue a garment of wollen without the death or iniury offered to the beasts that giue them for which cause as Pythagor as sayth wollen was an abhomination in a garment but line and flax whereof the linnen garment is made because it groweth out of the earth without wrong done to the life of that is had Antimachus Can you yet make more meaning hereof Irenaeus 3. Further the linnen garment is the marke of my high calling Mal. 3.1 of the dignity of my place and person For the ministers are called the Angels and messengers of the Lorde of hoasts and Angels almost alwayes appeared to men cloathed in white garments Why should we therfore come with such shredding kniues to pare the church of her lawfull liberty in the garments that it vseth and enioyneth placing no religion therin and being so spare of ceremonies as it is Ierome in his second booke against Iouinian inhibiteth this white attire to Monkes because it was so triumphant and stately as it was euer so in account among the very heathens Wherfore their magistrates were called Candidati because they came into the senate of Rome in white robes Afterward there were those that were thus cloathed that were called Candidati Caesaris who were Caesars Secretaries and read the Emperors letters openly in the Counsell house In those times none might weare such a garment but great men such as were called albae gallinae filij men of great fortunes and excelling in authority Now then because we haue obteined so high a name as to be the Lords Angels and Embassadors let vs be thus apparelled like men of our degree Achab and Iehosophat went in royall robes And religious Queen Ester was apparrelled according to her estate 2. Ring 22. 2. Chr. 18. Esth 2 Esth 8. Dan. 5. Act. 12. And her good vncle Mordechai was arrayed like an honourable man So was Daniel when he was aduanced suite accordingly So was Herod A long gowne is fitting a counsellor a short vesture is for a day labourer or vulgar lay person and the white ornament hath best correspondency with the ministers office of such dignity and preheminency Antimachus But in my mind the eyes of the people that are wholy fixed vpon such objects draw away their minds from better thoughts For as children delight more in the pictures that are in their bookes then in their lessons so the people to feed their fancies do more regard such apparell then the preaching of him that weareth it Irenaeus It will not be so if the outward ornaments of the church be but such as commonly haue bin vsed especially if they be plaine as the surplesse rotchet and the habite of our ministers and Bishop is For the vse and plainnesse of them preuent and take away al manner of admiration I would also think it more likely that the people whilest in wonder they behould such things would sall into further and deeper meditations of diuine matters Antimachus How happeneth it seeing there is such multiplicity of good vse in these garments that many other reformed churches entertain them not Irenaeus Non est eadem ratio vrbis orbis Lawes may differ according to the nature and condition of the place For other manners agree with other men other meats delight other stomacks other ayer is more fit for other natures and so may other lawes be for other countries But it is needefull that one state should be vnder one discipline lib. 10. It is Curtius his saying Eiusdem iuris esse debent qui sub eodem rege victurisunt They ought to be vnder one law that are vnder one Prince For diuision in lawes maketh a diuision and partition in the Kingdom For as a painter though he be neuer so cunning a workman and shaddoweth his worke with neuer such liuely and orient colours to make two boords seem one yet if those boords be not better glued together they will be seen to be two so that the church or common wealth may be one the people must be coadunated or coanimated in one or else a rupture in the frame of gouernment Delegib lib. 6. will very soone appeare It is equality that conioyneth friendship and is the mother of friendship as Plato sayth And inequality as Aristotle saith is the foundation and ground of suspition Polit. lib. 5 cap. 1. 2. Now there is no equality in this that some should be square and others round some white some black But hereof we will intreat more afterward Antimachus But might we not haue an absolute discipline and gouernement for the Church though there were no cannons for apparell but euery one were left to his owne choyce therin Irenaeus Though there were no Prouiso in this case yet reason should perswade vs that we should as in other things be vniforme in apparell Gratian doth aduise vs to suite our selues in our habite to those among whome we do conuerse plainly saying that he that doth otherwise is eyther superstitious or humorous The glossary propoundeth vs this rule to obserue that in the forme of our apparell we would apply our selues to the custome of the place wherin we liue Aug. de doctr Christiana lib. 3. To him consent Panoruntanus Benedictus Caprea Baldus Thomas Ierom who commendeth Nepotian for obseruing this rule And it is Augustines direction in his volume of Christian learning that we diuide not our selues in these transitory things frō the vnity of the church and from the vse of the times and places where we liue And Ambrose holdeth it very decent and becomming our duty to accommodate our selues to the customs of the countries where we conuerse if we would not be offensiue to any or haue any offensiue to vs. In old time at Rome and afterward at Constantinople there were exercises and games of running kept which continued to the time of Phocas the Emperour where the actors and cursitors diuided themselues by their colours in their suites of apparel some in green some in a sadder white Hereupon there grew partaking among the people and choosing of sides and therwithall such enuy emulations affections as after they had done their sports they began to be in earnest and each part to fight vnder his colours that it cost a deale of bloud in Aegypt Syria Greece Ochosias asked his Legats whō he had sent to the god of Archaron for oracle 2. King 1. of what forme and
actions it maketh much that the Apostle saith All thinges are cleane to those that are cleane as that also which he saith to Timothie Tit. 1.15 Euery creature of God is good 1. Tim. 4.4 Now it is not necessarie that we should haue expresse mention of euery thing brought into vse in the Church in the holy Scriptures it is enough that by faith in generalitie we know that indifferent things cannot pollute or defile such that are of a pure minde and conscience Thirdly I wold further wish you to giue great respect to ecclesiasticall lawes that tend to order grauitie decencie and are not blinded with any superstition or impietie Socrates would not weare Siconian shooes though they were well made and fit for his feete because they were not comely for his calling But this exception taketh no place in the prescribed habite and attire of Ministers it beeing as graue and seemely as any can be deuised The very Turkes themselues are deuoted wholly to the custome of their Countrey in their forme of raiment according to their degrees and shall not Christians shew constancie in this case according to comelinesse and sobrietie Customes are not to giue place to mens humours but men must resigne their humours to customes vnlesse they can inferre better reasons against them Much have beene attributed by the better sort to good and honest customes Zacharias did not onely performe sacrifices but it is said Luke 1. that he did this dutie according to custome Luke 2. The parents of Christ came yeerely to Ierusalem to fulfill the custome Our Sauiour went to the Mount of Oliues to pray Mat● 26. 1 Cor. 11. it being his custome so to doe The Apostle Paul citeth the custome of the woman whilst they came together to the Church for praier sake Yea bad men haue yeelded to the customes of their times to grant such libertie which otherwise of their owne accorde without the authoritie of prescription Matt 29. Acts 25. they would not haue affoorded Pilate was contented to haue Christ loosed alleadging for it the custome of the Iewes which was to dismisse a prisoner yeerely at this feast of Passeouer Festus the Tribune of the people vrgeth the custome of the Romans against the Iewes which intended the Apostles death whereby hee escaped a strong and strange conspiracie proiected against him The Lord is witnesse to my soule how little my meaning is by these illustrations to holde vp the head of absurde customes that aime at superstition But mine eyes heerin are bent vppon the customes of our church by such examples as these to encourage all of the aduerse parte to conformitie thereunto and not so boldely and baldly as they doe to abase our honest customes Fourthly If I may also be meekely heard of you I would put you in minde of your obedience to lawe and hovv ridiculous and contemptible it would be to an estate to repeale and change Lawes enacted by graue and learned iudgement at cuery ydle motion of a newfangle male content It was the positiue injunction of the Locrians Demosthenes couer Demoer as Demosthenes beareth witnesse that hee that should offer to put vppe a new Lawe should come with an halter aboue his necke to the Parlement that if there were better reason against his lawe hee should be trussed vp for it I wish not the vndooing of any ones life that hath a forge in his head for new lawes but I wish him seuere censure that is too busie with his billes and tender vs for Cannons and Constitutions the crochets conceits of his wooll-gathering wittes The Ephesian Heraclitus as Laertius dooth report saieth That Cittizens ought to fight no lesse for their lawes than for their walles The Graecians had their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their Prefects and Officers whose charge it was to protect enacted lawes and to censure the delinquents Cice. pro Cluent They confidered the necessitie and the nature of publique lawes the Oratour calling them Vincula reipublica furdamentum libertatis fontem aequitatis The bonds of the common wealth the foundation of libertie and the fountaine of equitie What shall then become of the seuerall partes that are knitte together by the bandes of good lawes and doe very well when the bondes thereof are broken must not the whole structure and composition come downe when the foundation is vndermined yee may not disturbe and trouble a publique streame that is to relieue the countrey vnder paine of a great punishment but the fountaine of our welfare is disquieted in our immoderate contentious communications For how can a plant thriue that is often remooued It is Senecaos proposition and it is true in obseruation Non conualescit planta quae saepiut transfertur And this hath allusion to the alteration of lawes by Seneca in Oedipode Nan expedit concutere soelicem statum It is not good to be busie with a well ordered state Plato would not haue a common wealth to be cloyed with many lawes Fewer lawes then we haue already and better executed might serue our turne And commonly it is seene that the older are the better It is the Item that Tacitus giueth vs Super ommibus negotijs melius rectius elim prouisum quae connectu●●ur in deterius mutari In all matters that which is best and rightest hath beene fareseene and exchange happeneth to the woorst Wherefore Valerius would haue nothing abated of olde custome but woulde haue euery article and particle consist in his former vigor In minimis rebus omnia antiquae consuetudinis momenta seruanda In the triflingest things that are all the appurtenances to antient vse are to be retained Of which minde was the Emperour Augustus as may appeare out of his admonition to the Senate saying Obseruate leges quas habetis viriliter ne mutate vllas na●● quae manent in cedem statu et sipeiora sunt vtilior a sunt quàm ea quae semper mutantur et stapparent meliora esse Obserue roundly the lawes which ye haue already alter them not for those that doe stand in the state they were before albeit they be worser are more vsefull than those that are alwayes chaunged though they seeme to be better Thucidides li. 6 With whom consenteth Altibiades in Thucidide Holding that people to be in best case who are gouerned by their present customs and lawes without alteration although they be not so good The Epidaurians inhibited their people to trauell into forraine parts or to vse traffike in strange places fearing left they should bring home with them forraine and strange fashions It is daungerous to pull downe an olde wall but more daungerous to pull downe olde lawes Sodaine alteration as it is perillous to the naturall bodie so it is as much hurtfull to the body politique A change must come in testudinc● gradu sensim sine sensu to be the better borne Wee see how the dayes alter in their encrease and decrease as the alteration is