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A18003 A discourse, concerning two diuine positions The first [ef]fectually concluding, that the soules of the faithfull fathers, deceased before Christ, went immediately to heauen. The second sufficientlye setting foorth vnto vs Christians, what we are to conceiue, touching the descension of our Sauiour Christ into hell: publiquely disputed at a commencement in Cambridge, anno Domini 1552. Purposely written at the first by way of a confutation, against a booke of Richard Smith of Oxford, D. of Diuinity, entitled a Refutation, imprinted 1562, & published against Iohn Caluin, & C. Carlile: the title wherof appeareth in ye 17. page. And now first published by the said Christopher Carlile, 1582. Carlile, Christopher, d. 1588? 1582 (1582) STC 4654; ESTC S107537 141,619 356

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in an other lyfe whiche when Cayne hearde hee slewe him forthwyth Ambrose also doth affirme that GOD hearethe the deade because they lyue wyth hym and doe reste in hys Pallaice hee callethe Abell the Prince Capitaine and way leader of Christian men And shall we saye then that the captaine is in worser state then y e soldiour the prince in worser case then the subiect so dothe Ambrose call him And to y e same effect doth it tende which is written in the 6. chapiter of the Reuelat. wheras the soules lying vnder the aulter apparayled in white garments saye Olorde holy and iuste how longe wilte thon tarry to auenge our bloud Amonge whom was Habel desiring the resurrection And so was Enoch as affirmeth Salomon in the booke of wisdome the 4. chapter saying these wordes Enoch because he pleased god was caried into paradise an example of good life vnto the worldes to come When he pleased god he was beloued and for that he liued amonge the wicked he was rapt vp least he shuld by their peruersity haue bene seduced Ther are in y e same place many goodly sentences which declare y ● faithful after their death furth with to receyue felicitye and the wicked or vnfaithfull misery Paule also proueth y e same Enoch saithe he was translated or taken vp from deathe to life or dyed not at all for before his translation it is written of him that he pleased god whiche for to do without faithe is impossible Thus you must nedes beleue you that will go vnto god that thee is a god that doth recōpense the faithfull and suche as loue him Wherfore it is euident that Enoch ascended into heauen Iosephus affirmeth the same Yet I know that there are some of the hebrue Doctors as Esra who taketh his translation from deathe for his deathe onely and not for any assumption howbeit the hebrue worde signifiethe not onely to take away by deathe but also to receiue vnto himselfe as god did Enoch Pselly a gréeke author affirmeth that he did flye vp into a heauenly place So is there a great nomber which affirme that he went into Abrahams bosome and into the same place whether Christ his body went Isodorus saythe that he was the 7. from Adam because that all men in the beginninge of the 7. thowsande yeare should enioye the same felicity which he did then And all the Latins in a manner saye that he went into heauen least it should haue bene thought that the fathers soules should haue bene in hell or detayned in lasye limbus Chrisostome Ephrem with other of the gréekes affirme that he is in a fortunate place Thus far of Enoch And the same I do iudge of Enos Seth Lamech Noac Sem and all the rest of the faythfull fathers whose faythe conuayed thē vp into immortallity Nowe let vs heare and mark what god sayth vnto Abraham Thou shalt sayth god go vnto thine elders and people quietly and be buried in a florishing●… age which is as muche to say when thou art dead thy soule shall spedily ascende into heauen among thine elders where it shall lyue in the abundance of ioyes Wherefore they who contend and affirme that there is no place in y e bookes of Moyses whereby the immortalitye of the soule can be proued are greatly to be blamed for it is euident of this place that the soul went vnto ioy for he said whē thou shalt dye and go vnto thin●… elders First y ● soules go vnto their elders whiche are all the faithfull Fathers and then is the bodye buryed If you should vnderstand yt of his sepulcher which is at Hebrō where he was buried in the double caue y ● ys false for ther was none of his elders buryed nor none of his familiars his wyfe Sara onely excepted thē he should haue sayd y ● shalt go vnto thy wife Sara not to thy elders if you vnderstād it of his ●…arnal fathers Thara Nachor they moste abhominable Idolatoures wherfore he ment not vnto them then must he meane those faithful men before recited who exercised the same fayth y ● hee did beleued in the same Christ. For by faythe he possessed Cananye subdued tyrantes offred Isaac and obteyned euerlasting felicitie for faith bringeth saluation as Prodromus saith in these verses which I translated out of the greeke tounge O holye faith sound perfect and pure Which of saluation doest man assure Or thus O constant faith pure and not fained Whereby euerlasting life is ob tayned God made first a Couenaunt with Adam promisinge the Seede that should tread downe the Serpentes head v●…to Noat he promised quietnes with the Rainbowe vnto Abraham hee promised the Lande of Canaan and immortalitye none of these did doubt of any thing but did beleeue the promiser Paul by their example perswded men to beleeue and thereby to obteine euerlasting lyfe And if we that are their Children doe hope by fayth to haue the fruition of God his presence how vnkynde are wee to depriue our fathers therof including them in the darke dungeon of Hell or Limbus spoylinge theym of all Ioye and Glorie Abraham is called in the Scriptures the father of all the faithful and was he then in woorse state then his children When hee had lyued 175. yeres hee departed vnto his Elders and people that is as Caietanus affir●…eth into the sweete and pleasant ●…asie of felicitye which God hath ●…repared for his elect from the beginninge hee is gathered vnto his ●…athers This Metaphor is thus ●…o bee applied that as the husband ●…an doth gather his corne into his Barne so God gathreth his faithfull seruantes into his heauenly habitation as Christ doth witnes saing that the chaffe which is the wickedshalbe burned but the corn which are his faithfull he will laye or gether it into his barne which is heauen He died saith the scripture in a pleasante age such an age such a reward soloweth such a death such a life such labor such ioyes The interlyned glose with the ordinary Strabus and also Angustine place Abraham sometime amonge the angels in y e mount Sion in the citty of the liuing God in the celestiall Ierusalem amonge the cōpany of th●… innumerable augels in the congregation of y e first born sonnes which are written in heauen sometime 〈◊〉 God the Iudge of all men among the spirites of perfect men and 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ the mediator of th●… newe testament Ambrose sayth 〈◊〉 Caietanus that this phrase of th●… gethering to his elderes can in n●… wise be referred vnto the body but vnto the soule The like is verified of Moses and Aron in Deut. 32. He that beleued as Abraham did and like wyse liued as he liued can inhabyte none other place then very heauen this city this countrye this kingdome and this inheritance is promised and ys proper and common