the Soule of Christ which you can never prove Howbeit this I acknowledge indeed that the Iewish Figures though they be applyable vnto Christ the substance of those shaddowes yet wee ought to apply them in the particulars soberly and warily and not without some plaine proportion of the Figure with the thing Figured Wherefore my meaning is none other in these Iewish figures which the Scripture doth not any where expresly interpret but to shew what I thinke to be indeed most probable and likely knowing that yet som such matter as we aime at they do signifie without question And this is sufficient to deny your Assertion which against our saying that the sufferings of Christes Soule may be signified by the Scapegoat is but meerely coniecturall and presumed The very like are * your 3. reasons brought to shew that the Holocaust cannot signifie the sufferingâ—s of whole Christe Pag. 236. and therefore not of his Soule any way Lev. 1. 6. Your former reason is because the Holocaust was 1. slaine and after burnt for then if the burning signifieth Christs paines and sufferings Christ must seeme to suffer after his death But this is a weake inference Is there any Figure or similitude concurring in all points and circumstances with the thing signified Sure there is no man of knowledge so vnexpert or so vnreasonable as to require it Many times where they agree only but in one principall respect that sufficeth to make the similitude Againe many similitudes and Figures there are in the olde Law having as great disparagemeÌ„t to the things signified by them as this in the Holocaust which you talke of The Bodies of beasts first slaine Lev. 4.11 2. 16 27 Heb 13.11.12 ver 13. Lev. 1.9 were after caryed out of the Host Now these signified Christs going out of Jerusalem * to be slaine but being yet alive Againe the beasts carying out by others after they were slaine is likened to our voluntary and free leaving of the world in this life Lastly the * burning of the beastes after they were dead was a sacrifice of a sweet favour vnto God Which in truth is Christs very death Fphe 5.2 and nothing don by him afterward whereby Gods anger is fully pacified towarde vs. Wherefore your first exception is very vaine The 2. is like to it The Holocaust was consumed in one the same sire But Christ was tormented wholly not with one kind of suffering as we maintaine but with 2. kindes that is with bodyly spirituall sorrowes First I say this also if it were true is as weake an exception as the former and altogeather like it See Though Christ indeed suffered divers and sundry kindes of sorrowes yea even of those which were meerely outward and bodily Even that meerely in the Soule viz. when it grew vehement as also of those that were meerely Spirituall and inward yet we plainely affirme that one the same torment afflicted his whole manhood by sympathy For his Soule also was sore grieved I doubt not even with his proper Bodily torments likewise his Body when his trickling sweat was clots of bloud was crushed and broken vnspekeably with his inward and spirituall sorrowes though his flesh then felt outwardly no paine So your 2. exception is also nothing The 3. is no better where you argue from a Treaâ— pag. 1â— my words that the Bodyes of beastes could not prefigure the immortall reasonable Soule of Christ. And it is like to that which b pag. â— afterward you cite from my words about the Sacraments Earthly Elements cannot set out spirituall and invisible effectes in Christ. Hence you thinke that I cannot defend that the firy consuming of the Holocaust may signifie the sorrows both of the Soule and Body of Christ You shall see that I can full easily and without any trisling It is evident that I meane in those former places that bodily thinges generally and for the most part doe-represent the meere bodily externall parts of Christes sufferings but not alwayes and altogeather Which you might haue easily seene by my answere to the c Treaâ— pag. â— Assumption and by the instances which there I give to this purpose Againe the very instances which I give viz the Scapegoat the Holocaust afterward the bread broken in the communion these I say doe not in that respect as they are Bodily things represent the Soule of Christ or any matter pertayning to it But the peculiar vsage and maner of action about them doth lively represent the suffering of his soule and not of his body only As not the Goat representeth Christes soule vnles only in respect of the escaping of it wheÌ„ the other Goat dyed also in respect of the sustayning and bearing vpon himself of our sinnes And not the body of the Holocaust but the vtter consuming by fire of the whole signifieth the sufferings of whole Christ Lastly the bread may signifie the whole Christ who is the intire and perfit bread of life but the Breaking thereof into pieces representeth more lively the breaking crushing in pieces as it were of the soul rather theÌ„ of the body Which was pierced through but was not in case of being broken in pieces so likely as the Soul was Yet you will say the Hol may signifie that whole Christe suffered but some bodily afflictions the Soul feeling the griefs paines of the Body For how wil it follow that the proper and immediat sufferings of Christs Soule might be signified by the Holocaust Surely according to the proportion of the Holocaust so whole Christ then his very Soule chiefly was as it were chopt or broken into pieces and as it were quite consumed and swallowed vp in his firy sorrowes onely the assistance of his Godhead sustained his Soule and withall his body or els he could not have borne it â—reat 1. â—ag â—8 as a I noted M. Whitakers to have truly taught This can not bee but the Soules peculiar suffering of Gods very wrath far beyond all bodily sufferings and yet not those paines of Hell â—ag 8. c. as b you grosly vtter it Your other senses that you give heereof the 1. hindreth not mine â—ag 237. that is c the Acceptation of Christes death The 2. that is Christs fleshes incorruption after death is very hard and far fetcht And Sacrifices had their respect to Christes death not to any thing further or afterwards As for another sense out of Austin that it should signifie our perfection and burning charity it cannot be true for the Holocaust-sacrifice out of question primarily signified the person of Christ not ours See it is vntrue that any man besides Christ alone is or can bee perfect in this life that he should bee wholly consumed with Heavenly love according to the proportion of the consuming of the Holocaust Also you both heere do seeme double vnderstanding by the Holocaust both incorruption after death a perfect
turne them to ioy gladnes though not properly to be glad of them Nay we ought most instantly to pray against them No affliction at all is good in it owne nature and the greatest of all is good to Gods children by his grace So that touching this vse of them therein wee are to reioyce even when we are most bruized and pearced in our soules with the terrours of God Lastlie 〈◊〉 134. l you frame an obiection against your selfe which you neither doe nor can answer Christs soule might feele the tormentes of Hell for the time without any distrust or doubting of his salvation or our redemption You pretend thïs answer The essentiall tormentes of Hell are the absolute losse of Gods kingdom everlastingly and that m Eternall continuance is of the nature and substance of Hell But we shew you â— 53 although the damned are in Hell torments everlastingly and of necessitie so must bee yet eternall continuance in them and to feele them but for a time are indeed but Circumstances not of the essence or nature of Hell tormentes Gods proper and extreame wrath only and his sharpest vengeance for sinne is the essence or nature of Hell paines Which against the Damned indeed is eternall and vnsatisfyable but lighting on Christ it was not eternall because it was satisfyable Wherefore it is plaine that you have answered in effect nothing to your owne obiectioÌ„ Thus far we have gone shewing that we a Pag. 2 neither extende the cause of Christes Agonie to far in affirming it to have com of most bitter extreame Paines which he suffred properly for our sinns neither that we coÌ„tinue it to long in affirming that he felt the same most extreamely on the Crosse Contrariwise that you curtaile it to short when you say it was no more but b Pag. 1 290. Devotion to God and Compassion to men also that Christes Agonie touched him c Pa. 11â— not at all on the Crosse So that d Before 90.91.116 our Maine argument which you would haue frustrated standeth firme and good still that seeing his Agonies Paines and Feares were such so great as the Scripture by the effects signes sheweth that they were both before his death and at his death therefore they were more then meere bodily paines and more then meere bodily death much lesse were his Holy and Religious affections the proper and speciall Cause thereof But of necessity they were the Paines proceeding from the infinit and sharpe Iustice of God which Christ truly suffered in his Spirit and Soule and Body After this a Pag 3â— Touchiâ—â— Death oâ—â—â— Soule you set vehemently against my last argument That Christ suffered in some sorte the death of the Soule First if wee should speake strictly after the maner of Death in the Body then no man is so mad or foolish as to say that any mans Soul can dye at all that is want life and sense as a dead body doth Thus the very damned soules in Hell suffer not death But such a death as immortall soules are subiect subiect vnto is Gods separation froÌ„ them And this is 2. folde The 1. death and the 2. death as the Scripture speaketh The 1. is the separation of them from Gods grace which is in this life by sinne raigning in them The 2. death is Gods leaving them in the feeling of the most sharpe and most vehemeÌ„t paines inflicted by Gods iustice for sinne This last kind of death is so called and named in many places of b Ezek. Gen. 2â— Rom. 6â— 2. Cor. 3.7.5.20 aâ— 1. Ioh. 17. Scripture It hath also a double consideration First ordinarily and commonly it belongeth only to the Damned for their owne inherent sinne where withall are the ordinary Accidents and coÌ„comitants togeather Desperation induration blaspheming vtter darkenes c. with Perpetuitie of punishment and that locally in Hell In this sense the Fathers generally do take it where they deny that Christ suffered the death of the Soule and so likewise do we Secondly The death of the soule or the 2. death may be extraordinarily and singularly considered namely to imply no more but simply the very nature and essense of it 〈◊〉 Death the Soule â—â—rist tasted That is the feeling of most deadly infinit paines inflicted by God himselfe in his proper iustice for sinne all sense also of his comfortable presense being taken away This is a Death to the Soul â—â—g 113. â—ag 135. 6. â—ag 112. 3. as * before we have shewed according to this sense the Scriptures †Fathers before noted may rightly be vnderstood not to deny it in Christ so that this kind of Death in the soule but none other we may safely say Christ did suffer for our sinne imputed to him Moreover let it be observed that if wee had no proofes at all in Scripture for this point yet our Question is fully proved coÌ„firmed notwithstanding by those other sufficient pregnant proofes alleaged iustified before For it is be to noted that no man setteth the questioÌ„ in these termes That Christ dyed in his soule neither doe we at all vse them very much in speaking of this matter We do only when some speciall occasion draweth it from vs neither then do we vtter it in those termes but with vsing some further declaration of our minde The reason of this warynes is because we are not ignorant how ambiguous the phrase is and how apt to be mistaken specially where men list to cavill Also people vntaught and vnsetled in construing the scriptures sense do quickly take offense at thinges which they ought better to digest So that you doe very iniuriously to grate still one this phrase of speach and to straine it to the worst as you do as if by no meanes it could beare any good sense and as if we built our maine Assertion onely heerevpon Which in truth is nothing so The same also doe we affirme touching our vsing in this matter the phrase of Christs suffering Hell paines Both these phrases are but seldome and respectively vsed by vs. Howbeit we deny not but that both these phrases may be well and rightly applyed vnto Christ on occasion â—â—g 16. 52. â—â— 113. as * before is observed may both serve truly and most emphatically to expresse the infinitnes of the paines and sorrowes of his suffering for vs. Yea this very phrase of death extended in Christ further then to his meere bodily dying hath I doubt not expresse ground in the Scripture and therefore may the better be vsed soberly admitted charitably You will aske where is there any scripture Proofes that Christe suffered any other death then that meerely of his body I answer First consider well that to the c Hebr. â—ebr 5.7 Hee offered vp prayers and supplications with strong crying teares to him that was able to save him from death It is not possible that this Death heere should be
his meere bodily Death which he so wofully and impotently feared as I haue before sufficiently coÌ„firmed Therefore it was the death of the soule the 2. Death which heere is vnderstood to have thus mightily afflicted Christ Which also your own selfe do d Pag. â—â— fully grant and affirme with me Yea you affirme further then we doe or then the truth is or possibly can be You say Christ heere thus feared Eternall death and Everlasting damnation What a speach is this Christ could not possibly feare in such wofull maner that which he perfitly knew should never come neere him But he perfitly knew that eternall Death and the Cup of Gods everlasting malediction should never touch him He knew and saw that this by Gods almighty and vnchangeable Decree was set further from him then the East is from the West yea then Hell is from HeaveÌ„ Therefore he could not by any meanes possibly feare eternall death nor pray in such sort against it Againe that which he feared and so pitifully prayed against was that which he knew was by God e Iohn 12 ordayned for him Yea Feare alwayes is of that which is to come But Eternall death was not by God ordayned for him that was “ Which Christ 〈◊〉 right wâ— not to come vnto him Therfore it was not Eternall death which he so feared Finally when in the Garden he prayed against that Cup which he feared that it might passe from him there he yeeldeth and submitteth himselfe presently to the vndergoing of it But it were I know not what to say that Christ did ever yeeld and submit himselfe to vndergo Eternall death or to tast the Cup of Gods everlasting malediction Therefore it was not this that he feared heere prayed against And yet it was I grant the Death of the Soule or the 2. Death that is simply the essense thereof Gods withdrawing himselfe from him in the Paines and torments thereof This onely it was He suffer that deatâ— which he feared not the eternity thereof nor sinfull concomitants which he thus feared And this for the infinitnes of it naturally he could not but feare yea and that so extreamely also he feared f â—ôzein for him selfe as knowing it to be ordayned for him So that hence it followeth invincibly that Christ in deed suffered sith he thus feared more then the meere bodily Death even the Death of the soule For he could not I say thus * Much yeeld to iâ— he did sâ—â—ing Thy â—â—â—don feare but he must needs know that it was to come or might com vnto him â—wed furâ—â— before 131.132 if he but knew that it might come then it * certainly did come vnto him at one time or other in his Passion before heâ— left the world See to the Hebr. g Christ abolished through death him that had the power of death that is the Divell and so delivered all them which for feare of death were all their life time subiect to bondage â—â—b 2.14 Heere I see no reason in the world but that the Apostle by â—his often repeating of death and by mutuall referring of it in one place as it were to the other doth vnderstand signifie one and the same death altogeather But it is the death of the Soule which the Divell hath the power and execution of also the death of the soule chiefly sinful men were held in feare of all their life long It followeth then I suppose that even through this death of the Soule Christ abolished the Divell and deliveted his children Specially seeing there is no enormity nor impossibilitie heerein Against this you haue no reason at all but wordes and wrestings and vaine ostentation of Fathers none of them all denying our sense Third it seemeth also that Peter teacheth this same Pet. 3.18 saying k Christ in his suffering was don to death in the Flesh but made alive by the Spirit Where Death may be very well referred both to the Soule and Body of Christ Because the text heere speaketh as I iudge of the whole and entire sufferings of Christ And it is manifest by that before that Christ did suffer not in his body only but properly and immediatly also in his Soule we haue seene also that the * phrase of Death 〈◊〉 135.136 or Dying may in a good sense be applyed even to Christes Soule Againe this word Flesh it seemeth can not heere in this place be vnderstood to signifie onely the Body of Christ but even both partes of his Humane nature thar is the reasonable Soule and the body My reason is because wheresoever in scripture the Flesh and the Spirit are noted oppositly togeather in Christ â—â—m 1.3 4. â—im 3.16 â—oh 4.2 〈◊〉 1.14 â—or 5.7 â—4 1.4.1 â—â—g 320. there the i Flesh signifieth alwayes his whole Humanity even both partes thereof the Soule also not the Body only the Spirit signifieth his Deity or Divine power Now what have you against this Nothing of waight but floutes and mockes that k this observation is made out of the hinder partâ— of my head c. But what pretend you against it Some Scripture palpably abused First Mathew where Christ speaketh of his Disciples that their Spirit their inward regenerat man was ready to watch â—ath 26. but their Flesh their corrupt nature was weak sluggish What is this to Christes Flesh and Spirit Thinke you that Christs Soule was willing to suffer as God had appointed but that his Flesh resisted Verily so you seeme heere to vnderstand An vntrâ—â— conceit and it is as likely as your applying of Flesh and Spirit to Christ in your pag. 104. Then a Luk. 2. Luke where both Spirit and Flesh are not intended of Christ as our observation before requireth but only the Flesh Then the Romanes where I affirme that b Rom. Flesh signifieth the whole Manhood of Christ according to the which he came from David even as well as SalomoÌ„ or Nathan did who were Davids sonnes in their entire and perfit nature So likewise Christe was kinne to the Iewes according to his c Rom. 9 whole Humanitie aswel as d ver 3. Paul was And heere Paul meaneth him selfe to be kinne to them according to Nature wholly that only by Regeneration in the Gospell he was differing from them Now Nature opposed to Grace and regeneration hath reference both to Soule and Body in a man Howsoever the Soule cometh in Generation that is not heere considered neither is it necessarily to the purpose Which difficulty also your selfe haue vtterly * Pag. 2â— renouÌ„ced before to make it any argument for you in this matter Thus yet the Flesh and the Spirit thus opposed heere in Christ shall signifie the whole Manhood and Godhead in him Further that which e Pa. 32 you bring out of the f 2. Corâ— Corinthians compared with this in Peter doeth most fitlie and clearely open and confirme the
effect they are all one with Thanatos Death but that Thanatos belongeth properly to Bodyes Hades Sheol sometimes to Bodyes sometime to Soules of Men indifferently Yea sometime these 2. are applyed though more rarely to other things also which are in this visible world namely wheÌ„ they com to Destruction and No being any more as anon we shall better vnderstande Now let vs proceed and shew further even by the Scriptures first that Sheol and Hades are as I say more then once vsed for the generall condition of death wherein even iust mens soules are held or the mansion of soules departed aswell good as bad Then afterward the common consent of others will availe the more That a Psalm 4â— Psalme which intreateth wholy of Death of the impossibility to escape it of the power which it hath over the wicked whose ioy and pompe is only in this world in that it cutteth of all their hopes it endeth their pleasure and marreth all their bewty I say in this Psalme where all expresse circumstances do shew that the Prophet speaketh of this death not of Hell yet David heere saith * verse 1â— notwithstanding God shall deliver my soule from the power of Sheol that is death or the state of death when hee shall reoeave mee most mightily So Tremelius turneth it noting heere Davids hope of the Resurrection which I think he hath well vnderstood in this place Otherwise David might heere comfort himselfe in this that hee knew God would save him alive from this common death not alwayes as you friuolously obiect but oftentimes yea alwayes till he should enioy the Kingdome which indeed God did for him when he was neere death not seldome and when his enemies the wicked were caught therewith Againe that b Psal 8â— Psalme sheweth it also where it is thus written My Soule is filled with sorrowes and my life draweth neere to Sheol By his life he meaneth his soule the proper cause and fountayne of life in him which also in the first parte of the sentence hee expresly named As the manner of phrase in the Psalmes is in the 2. parte of the sentence commonly to speake of the same things that are vttered in the former but varying the termes That life heere should signifie the body distinctly from the soule there is no such likelyhood nor reason Indeed I deny not but life may signifie heere the whole person of man As in these â—esaide Psal â— 48. 49 â— 10 16. al â—116 8. in â—â—y many â—aces of scripâ—â—e besides and so may c nephesh the soule also very wel and then Sheol and Hades signifie not peculiarly and distinctly the Grave which only is for the carcase but the condition of the Whole maÌ„ after he hath no being in this world In which regard chose what sense you will either that nephesh and chai shall in all these places of the Psalmes before handled signifie strictly the soul as very fitly it may or the whole person of man consisting both of a soule and of a living body contrary to which estate Sheol and Hades is very often taken g That is if it â—re not strictly â—â—d peculiarly â—â—e habitation â—sâ—y Souls yet â—â—s the condiâ—ur of the whole â—son that is â—â—â—h of Soul â—â—dy separaâ—â— by Death â—ob 30.23 and d peradventure so it is vnderstood heere in these places In which sense Sheol Hades are far from signifying hell yea or heaven either yea or only and meerely the Grave but it signifieth destruction from out of this world no-being here any more as afore time to the whole person that is both to the Soule and to the Body And thus Sheol and Hades Iob resembleth to a house or Habitation where he nameth it †Beth mâ—gned lecol chai the habitation after this world appointed for every person or if you will for all living things The same also Iob wisheth and desireth of God to himselfe that God would hide him Bisheol in this world of the deceased â—ob 14.13 would give him terme till his wrath was overpast In another place he comforteth himselfe thinking quickly to enioye it saying †Jf I have any hope Sheol or Hades â—ob 17.13 the world of the deceased shal be my habitation He ioyneth therevnto also particularly the grave but as touching Sheol seeng Iob speaketh of it as his continuall habitation till the worldes end it cannot be meant only of the Grave for his body which indured but a very short time neither had his flesh any being at all after it was turned to very earth and wormes He speaketh heere therefore also of his soules continuing habitatioÌ„ or mansion in another world Gen. 37.35 because they â—â—ch dy their â—â—ons do fall â—â—vne according to the Latin â—â—tase cadere â—â—idere occuÌ„â—â— to Dy. And in greatest reason this is that which Iaacob meaneth when he saith He will goe downe mourning to his sonne iâ— Sheol That is He will mourne till he dy for this he meaneth by * going downe heere speaking of death And then he hopeth to enioye the societie of his deare sonne in soule For his body hee thought was devoured and digested in the bellies of wilde beasts therefore he would goe to the soule of his sonne in Sheol Or els vnderstanding heere the dissolution passage of his Whole person he may meane partly his going downe to the graue as touching his body and yet also the enioying of the societie of his deare sonne in Sheol which surely as J said could not bee in body but in soule Thus Sheol heere hath respect to the changed estate of Iacobs whole person dissolved and not to one parte thereof only his body but to his soule also and it hath respect likewise to the estate of his dead sonnes soule where this loving Father hoped againe to haue society with him not any where els without which he could not be comforted Albeit in another place it seemes hee limiteth Sheol to the graue only but that we doe so vnderstand by reason of the Circumstances a Gen. 42. you will bring my Gray Head with sorrow to the Grave But againe to follow our purpose Good Hezekiah also looked for Sheol to be his habitation likewise after this life I said saith “ Isay 38. â—â— 11 12. he I shall goe to the gates of Sheol the Land of the dead I shall not see the Lord in the Land of the living I shall see Man no more among the inhabitaÌ„ts of the world My habitation or Mansion is translated and removed from me as a sheapheards tent c. This heere cannot be the Grave nor Hell which he describeth For he thought he should theÌ„ have dyed and thus his habitation he thought should haue ben removed and translated from him that is I take it his body should be remoued from his soule which was the mansion or habitation of his soule while he lived but now he should
that is the DominioÌ„ or power of Death were cast into Hell â—â—v 20.14 I said it was absurd to say Hell was cast into Hell You answer it is more absurd to say the world of Soules was cast into Hell Where you doe but dally and play with words â—t â— e woâ—â—â—e â—e Deaâ— Aâ—â—ally For I vse not that terme * the world of soules though it may be named sometime in a good sense Which you will by no meanes conceave only you delight much to sport your sâ—lfe with it Our answer theÌ„ is this There is no absurditie to say that at the last day when the * last enemy shal be destroyed then Death â—â—â—ore pag. 2. and the power of Death or the Kingdome and Dominion of Death shal be cast into Hel that is eternally dâ—stâ—oyâ—d abâ—â—ished shall râ—turn to the Divell whâ—â—â— they came To say many soâ—t that theÌ„ Hell phalbe cast into Hell souÌ„deth sensâ—les in my â—atâ—s Although you meane the Contayning to bâ— put for the Contayned Hâ—ll for the Divels of Hel and that the Divels shalbâ— theÌ„ cast into hâ—l fire Yea although one Andreas â—eda vnderstand it so likewise For neither you nor they it â—â—â—meth do cosidâ—r that this place assigneth them to Hell then at the last day who yet are not in Hell but shal be then cast into Hell â—nd destroyed But the Divels are a 2 Pet. 2. Iâ—d 6. in Hell already reserved in eâ—â—rlasting châ—mes of darknes Therefore the Divels cannot be vndâ—â—stood heere by Hadâ—s that they shal be then cast into Hel seeing â—hey are already cast in to Hell for ever Death and the Power thereof being the last enemie that shal be dâ—stroyed is not yet but shal be indeed at the last day aboliâ—hed swallowed vp of Hell Lastly â—eere is shewed the most general vniversall rendring vp of all the â—ead whatsoever to iudgment But Hel plainly hath not all the Dead Death the world of the Dead or thâ— Dominion of Death have all Therefore Dâ—ath Hades heere do not signifie properly the Divâ—ll Hell but this only that Death and the vniversall Dominion or power of Death yeelded vp to iudgment al the Dead both great smal both good and bad to be iudged according to their workes Thus it is evident and cleere that Hades no where in the â—ew Testament doth signifie properly Hel as you say it doth Thus also that is concluded fully and perfitly which my 2. Reason †Pag. 15 before affirmed that you have not one place at all in the Scripture to prove that Christs Soule was in Hell b Act. â— 2 One place only you have stood vpon that Christs Soule was in Hades but that helpeth you nothing at all as we have seene You must prove indeed that Chriâ—ts Soule was in Gehenna if you would perswade any man of knowledg which you shal never do Gehenna in the New Testament is properly Hell but Hades is never properly so taken as I hope it is sufficiently before proved Therefore the Concluâ—ion is good To thinke that Christes Soule was ever in Hell is a thing that ought to be vâ—terly denyed Yet heere we must consider a maine obiection of yours â—ven those words of our common Creed Touching Câ—â—â—◠〈◊〉 which vsually in English wâ— vtter thus He descended into Hell originally 〈◊〉 is He descended into Hades And in truth this is all that you have to allâ—age for your opinion â—swere But I answer 2. wayes First Admitting then Denying the authority of thâ—se words in our Comon Creâ—d 1. Admitting the authority of these words yet Not as sufficient not as Aposâ—â—hâ—all but such as may be fâ—oÌ„ godly and sound Christians wâ— affirme that we can well vnderstand them according to the Scriptures vse of Hades rightly viz that Christes whole humane Person came vnder the power and Dominion of Death or that he dâ—caying in this world * falling down from that state of life wherein a while he flourished went absolâ—tly from hence into the world of the Dead 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 153. according to the law of nature which all other men follow likewise when they dâ— How this sense doth fully agree also with the mindes of the ancient Fathers generally we have at large dâ—clared c before Pag. 166. Pag. 1â—4 But this serveth not your turne therefore you will needes inioyne vs d 3. Rules to be exactly and prâ—câ—sâ—ly kept in the expounding of these words namely 1. Distinction of matter 2. Consequence of order 3. Propriety of words You must know that we can be no more strict Note nor more religious in observing the Ciâ—cuÌ„stances of matter order even in the holy Scriptures themselves then you inioyne heere to be observed in these words of men Might not these godly men think you misse in som such Circumstance or light point although the Scripture can not Or if they might why impose you such strictnes on our consciences about mens words as if heere were no possibility of any the least missing or imperfection How beit we admit your 3. Rules also 3. Rules and will observe them sufficiently First these words He descended to Hades may very well expresse a Distinction of matter differing from all the words heere besides They naturally and properly signifie as before we shewed that Christ came to vtter decay in this world and being taken hence was gathered in both partes of his Manhood dissolved wholy intirely to those who were departed before him into another world Or ells thus that he came vnder the full power e before Pag. 192. Dominion of Death Now either of these differeth verily from meere and simple Death â—vian â—â—â—â—â—â—ce â—eaâ—h For to Dy propeâ—ly is nothing els but the going a sunder of the Soule from the Body That other is to be wholy razed out from the presence and sight of this world also a remayning vnder the possession and strength of Death and a going to the society of them in another world g. 192. These indeed are f differing points and degrees in Death albeit in effect generally they bee all one with Death that is they be necessaâ—ily consequent alwayes conioyned vnto Death Againe if those wordes in the Creed were only but a more emphaticall phrase of through and perfit Dying and Departing hence if there were in them no further DistinctioÌ„ of matter then so yet this were enough to distinguish them froÌ„ the other words Dead and Buryed This is cause enough especially in the Ancient times when men suppose this Creed was framed when Christs Humanity and naturall Death was by al meanes subtilly and violently oppugned after a short worde signifying his Death and Buriall yet for more emphasis sake and for further Viging the same to addâ— this other short familiar phrase importing no other maine matter then was before noted but only a more effectuall and more absolut signification
â—â—s heere â—â—g 16. e that no more but the shedding of his bloud onely and meerely is the iust and full satisfaction of all our sinnes even in the righteous and sincere iudgment of God Then we absolutly deny your Assertion as before we haue don the like As for your a 1 Pet. 1 Rev. 5. â— alleaged Scriptures we answer them as we did generally b Treat pag. 8.9 before that they meane not the meere bloud of Christ nor only the body singly and simply considered but that togeather with the proper sufferings of his Soule also they were the iust and full satisfaction and redemption Against which you have nothing any where And likewise our advised and resolut answere is to c pag. 58 60 61 7â— c. all the rest of your scriptures which most tediously and vainly you heape vp scatter every wherein your former treatise to this effect as if they contayned somwhat for your purpose when as indeed there is not one text any where that hath any meaning of your strange conceit So that wee shall have no need to trouble our selves any more heereafter about any of them Yet d pag. 24â— heere you vrge a reason against vs Jf our Soules be not redeemed by the bloud of Christ our bodyes have no benefit of redemption you meane from death But we e 1. Pet. 1 Rev. 5.9 are redeemed not we shal be Ergo it is our Soules which are redeemed our bodyes are not redeemed as yet in this life Wherein we have to note 3. things 1. Your Proposition is vaine and illogicall having no consequence in it at all Which maketh mee to thinke that I hit your meaning right and mistooke you not in my former booke Howbeit to try this your sentence heere what if our Soules were not at all redeemed by Christes bloud but some other way or not by his bloud meerely and onely which indeede is our quaestion will it follow that therefore our bodyes are still mortall and therefore not redeemed from death Or what if our Soules be redeemed by his bloud as indeed they are though not wholly nor only thereby What followeth then from this Nay what if our Soules and Bodyes were redeemed wholly and only by Christs bloud Is these any consequence that therefore our bodyes should now be redeemed from death and never dy Truly I cannot discerne but that your proposition meaneth some such consequence as this which is to me a vey strang reason Yet that which you ad f Pag. 2â— afterward is more strang Jf our Soules be not redeemed wholly by the meere bloud of Christ For thus still I say you must make your wordes or ells you aske the very Quaestion then our bodyes have vtterly no good even no good at all by the death of Christ. In which sequele verily I can see neither head nor taile Chose you now whether you will that you speake this sophistically or absurdly For I cannot discerne it I leave it therefore to your self to determine But perhaps you will yet againe go backe to that you excused your selfe withall before You will meane that our bodies in this life have no benefit of redemption from death even no more then the bodies of Infidels And this plainly you avouch for truth Is this true Are not our bodies now already freed from the curse the sting of death from all the hurt harme that properly and naturally is in death Is it not made vnto vs a quiet sleepe and a peaceable rest an entrance for our Soules into Heaven a putting off of sin to our bodies in such wise that Christ taketh from it the a name of Death and calleth it but b a passage â—oh 8.51 Or have the Jnfidels also thus much benefit in death â—oh 5 2â— as wee have in it by our redemption in Christe I know not therefore how to terme this your assertion I forbeare to name it as it deserveth it is more then strange that Infidels bodies should have as much benefit of nedemption from death as our bodies have by Christ Dy I grant or cease to breath we must and do still even as they do And this death by the naturall property of it is a part of Gods Curse but to the faithful there are great benefits ioyned even in death by the gracious dealing of God peculiarly towardes his children which also their bodies are partakers of thorough the death of Christ The naturall sting is taken out of it for the godly yet it remayneth to the Infidells and hurteth them by retayning even their bodies though dead in vnder Gods dreadfull Curse Wherefore it makes many to thinke that indeed you vttered this matter somewhat otherwise in your Sermons then heere you doe now publish it and it perswadeth mee still that c I mistooke you not â—â—eat 1. â—â—g 11. seeing this your turning setting of it is so vnhansom For every one may see by this your handling of it that then you said more then heere you expresse and heere you would faine fashion it to somwhat but you cannot Yea your own words bewray som alteration froÌ„ that which so confidently you preached where you say Whatsoever the wordes were that you might vse which you do not acknowledge to be these that I bring â—ag 240. Lastly d you grant that you vsed this reason in handling the power of Christes death that is when you preached it For now in this Treatise you have cleane left it out for ought that e I can see which bewrayeth that it was such 〈◊〉 88.113 as your selfe saw was not to be maintayned howsoever heere you strive to set some colour vpon it though yet still in vaine Before we depart from this point That not the bloud of Christ nor his flesh meerely and only without respect to the merit of his whole Soule was the full price of Redemption heere is fit place to shew how sundry of the Ancient Fathers do agree with vs sufficiently in this matter although afterward in your booke you seeme to bring them against vs. But indeed so they seeme onely for in truth they are with vs as by these following we may see First a Ireâ— 5. Irenaeus The Lord bought vs with his owne bloud and gave his soule for our soules his flesh for our flesh b Cyr. de 〈◊〉 fid ad Tâ—â— Cyrill He bestowed his flesh as a ransome for our flesh and made his Soule likewise a price of redemption for our Soules although he lived againe being by nature life it selfe c Naz. in trâ—â— 49. ad Clâ—â— Nazianzen maketh every part of man to be sanctified by the like in Christ our condemned flesh by his flesh our soule by his soule our vnderstanding by his vnderstanding d Ambr. 〈◊〉 Luc. 22. 〈◊〉 trist doloâ—â— c. Ambrose saith Maerorem animae nostrae suae animae maerore abolevit He abolished the sorrow of our Soule by the sorrow of
his Soule And e De incaâ—â— Sacr. cap. 〈◊〉 Hoc in se obtulit Christus quod induit c. Christ offered in sacrifice all that which he assumed that is all every whit that was in him besides his Godhead f Fulgent 〈◊〉 Thrasym 〈◊〉 lib. 3. Fulgentius He shewed in himselfe the sufferinges of a whole man in verity truth quicquid fuit infirmitatis animae sine peccato suscepit pertulit Hee tooke vpon him and suffered whatsoever infirmity may be in the soule without sinne It is not possible that wee our selues should speake a more effectuall sentence for our purpose then this is Say as Fulgentius heere saith and we aske no more All that g Pag. 86. you except that by these Fathers Christe dyed only the death of the flesh is lesse then heere they affirme And we shall answer to that in due place Now marke well how these Fathers do not say that Christ gave his life for a ransom onely as h Pag. 70. â—â— you would construe it but even his very Soule to for our Soules They strive to expresse an exact proportion so far as was possible betwene Christ and vs. First in the parts of Christ who suffered of vs who were saved So that as we are saved not in our bodies only nor only in the externall sensitiue parte of our soules wherein standeth that suffering with and by our bodies but wee are saved redeemed and sanctified in our whole Spirite and Vnderstanding also even so by their verdict Christ suffered for vs not the bodily and outward sufferinges by Sympathy onely but hee suffered for vs even in his Minde also Now this is directly against your present a Assertion which we have in hand 〈◊〉 132.240 â—eere p. 14 Also heere they observe an exact proportion in the Obiects so far as was possible viz in that which he suffered for vs that which we are saved froÌ„ thereby Thus that sorrow of the immortall parte of the Soule not of body only which we are saved from the same he suffered Yea I say all and every whit of those passions sorrowes wherevnto mans nature is b subiect and capable of 〈◊〉 nature we â—â—e subject to â—â—fer in the â—â—nde proâ—erly for sin â—nd not only â—y Sympathy â—rom the Body Cyrill Thesâ—â—ur 10 3 Barnard de â—ass Dom. â—ap 41. Pag. 7. Terâ—ul cout Prax. Amb in Luc. 2. De trist â—olor c. and from which we are saved all the same he tasted and suffered for vs. Thus it is also that Cyrill elswhere saith c Omnia perpessus est vt nos ab omnibus liberaret He suffered all things throughly that hee might acquit vs from all which els we should have suffered And thus I take Barnards meaning to be d He spared not him selfe who knoweth how to spare his Wherevpon you collect well if you meane so e He suffered and indured All to the vttermost with exact obedience and patience To which end Tertullian also f Sic reliquit dum non parcit This was Gods forsaking of him in his passion that in nothing he spared him And thus Ambrose g Minus contulerat mihi nisi meum suscepisset affectum He had don lesse for me if he had not ben altogeather affected as I should haue ben And thus Ierom h â—erom in â—sa 53. h Quod nos pro nostris debebamus sceleribus sustinere ille pro nobis passus est pacificans c That wich we should have borne for our sinnes the same hee suffered for vs. Wherefore by the Fathers Christ suffered exactly i All whatsoever sorrowes paines which we should have suffered All kindes 〈◊〉 both in â—â—irit Body â—ot all partiâ—â—lars in theÌ„ as well Spirituall as Corporall as well in all the powers of the Soule subiect to suffering as in that which suffered allwayes with and from the body Only they except 2. pointes which of simple necessity indeed must be excepted in the Sonne of God Pag. 10. 12. â—3 which before k I have also acknowledged 1. Sinne Pag. 87. and all sinfull concomitantes and consequentes as l you speake And that is it which Cyprian exactly noteth That in him there was m Similitudo paenae non Culpae Cypr. de pass the very like punishmeÌ„t as should have ben in vs only there was no sinne nor fault in him as is in vs. The 2. point excepted is that he suffered not eternally but for a while for he that was life it selfe could not but live againe saith n Cyrill In the place above cited Where he seemeth to acknowledge a kind of death even of the soule from which Christ revived againe But of that in due place heereafter Nowe heere it is manifest that even the Fathers of whom you doe so exceedingly boast are cleane against you and for vs in the 1. and chiefest point of this question shewing that Christ suffered not only bodly or in the soule by Symphaty only but in the Minde also distinctly even as we may suffer in minde distinctly froÌ„ our bodily suffering that is when we suffer somwhat a As I 〈◊〉 Treat 〈◊〉 pag. 4. imediatly from God Yea he suffered say these Fathers all the paines which els we should haue suffered no materiall thing excepted but only sinne otherwise he was spared by dispensation in nothing Against this cleere and plaine sense of the Fathers b Pa. 35â— you take no exception neither can you Thus having hitherto manefestly defended my selfe that I have not abused any way the Fathers nor yet your selfe as you vniustly charge me in c Pa. 22â— your entrance Now I am to doe the like against d Pag. 2â—â— your vnsufficient refusing of my Reasons Where by I hope it shall appeare that you have not weakened any one of them And First you begin with rehearsing my wordes wherein I briefly noted the very Question betweene vs e Treat 〈◊〉 pag. 4. That Christ suffered for vs the Wrath of God Which you f Pag. 24 exclame at without measure as being not the point which you preached against Howbeit I suppose these wordes do rightly and fitly set out the matter both which then you preached which now you write I have g Pag. 8 heere before truly fully declared the whole state of this controversy I trust Yet because we can never opeÌ„ this point to much for many good vses that it hath I will not thinke it tedious nor labour lost ne to rip vp this question a litle againe in this place that so we may proceede with more ease Your generall cariage in your booke declareth that you abuse the Reader exceedingly by the ambiguous and equivocall taking of this terme Gods Wrath as before in the entrance I have shewed It is not I that abuse them as you h Namâ— 243 24â— every where very bitterly and vnreasonably do charge me For according to the most vsuall and
sunder â—â—g 268. Austin on whom d you triumph is stretched beyond his meaning He dealeth against a Manichee who denyed that Christ had true Humane flesh 〈◊〉 likewise â—â—l the rest â—â—ur Fathers â—â—ken for â—ost part 〈◊〉 sayings â—â—ther aâ—â— the Maâ—â—es or the â—â—s c. 〈◊〉 strove â—bout our â—â—â—ion which yet notwithstanding is manefest because Christ truly dyed Now he proveth that Christ truly dyed because the Apostle saith He was made a Curse for vs in that he hanged on the tree And where it is said Cursed is every one that hangeth on the tree this was saith he to shew that Christ was not exempted but was like other men truly accursed and truly dead So that his meaning is not to shew that Christes whole Curse and his bodily death were iust all one without any differeÌ„ce which you vrge him for nay he hath no such meaning Only he proveth by this that he being made truly a Curse did also truly Dy which the Manichee denyed For in saying Christ was dead accursed for vs is the same he meaneth it is the same for his purpose the one very well proveth the other but not that they were simply all one The rest of e your Fathers are alltogeather idly cited 〈◊〉 95. no man denyeth that which they say Where f you mislike me for saying 〈◊〉 26â— â—â—â—at 1. 〈◊〉 38. g The Curse laid vpon Christ was not onely the ignominie of his death the shame of the world you have nothing against it but much for it Austin whom you boast of is against you in this saying a Pag. â—â— Christ heere tooke on him our punishment without sinne But our punishment which is without sinne doubtles was a great deale more then only the dishonour and shame of the world Austin therefore is manifestly against you in this yea also b Pag. 2 your owne selfe is in saying likewise Austin and Chrysostome and c Pag. 9 other doe say that Christ suffered this ignominie but that this was all or the whole Curse which hee suffered I see none that affirmeth Your many Scriptures in d Pag. 2 this place what doe they Forsooth they prove that it is light at Mid-day For who ever made quaestion but that shame and reproch in their simple Nature were a parte of the true Curse of God Yet all this sheweth not that Shame was the whole Curse which Christ indured e Pag. 2â— You mislike that f Treat pag. 45. I said Christes dying simply g That is Christ haâ—ed simply which in 〈◊〉 he did noâ— as the godly dy may in no sort be called a Curse or Accursed Because as I affirme also h Pag. 44. Death to the godly is no Curse properly nor punishment of sinne but a benefit and advantage Nay therefore Christes Death was properly a Curse because his Death was i As befoâ—â— Pag. 11. 49 59 5 not like theirs You say I am too young a Doctor to controll St Austin herein And I say you are a Doctor not old enough to prove Austin k Your self teth him 〈◊〉 me herein 49. Corp mors bâ—â— bona mâ—â— mala contrary to me in this point Death in it owne nature and in the originall propertie of it is a part of the Curse and so Christ suffered it but in the Godly it is not properly a Curse nor the proper punishment or revenge of sinne which Christ once alone hath wholely sustayned and cleane freed vs of for ever This l Pag. 90. your selfe as well as m Pag. 43 I can tell saying The vengeance of the Lawe once executed on our Surety can no more in Gods iustice be executed on vs. And this our n Nowell techis Hâ—â— suffered â—â—der c. publike doctrine in England set forth by Masster Nowell confirmeth By Christes death it is come to passe that to the faith full Death is now not a Destruction but as it were a removing and changing of life and a very short and sure passage to heaven Who also in o His she Catechisâ—â— An. 157 another place expresseth it thus Death of the body which without Christ was the gate to Hell is nowe by Christ made to all that beleeve in him the gate and passage to Heaven So that death which before was a Punishment is now by Christ become a vantage Wherein you are notably contradicted who doe call p Pag. 15â— 216. Death in the godly the gate of Hell a strange and most vntrue translation Againe you are q Pag. 268 269. gainsaide in this place where you reprove me for affirming that Death to the godly and faithfull is a benefitt and advantage Then you say If I will reason what death is in it selfe I must resolve it to be a part of Gods Curse Which is no answer For our quaestion is not what death is in it selfe Who ever denied it to be in it selfe as you say a part of Gods Curse for sinne but my expresse wordes are Death to the godly is no Curse properly but a vantage Pag. 270. Where a you adde If Death were a gaine to the godly as I would have it by what meanes I pray you came it so to be If you know not why did you not marke better the publike Catechisme before rehearsed where all England is taught that it came by meanes of the death and resurrection of Christ You say Jf by the resurrection of Christ conquering Death and changing the nature of it then till Christ was rison Death was a punishment to the faithfull themselves I wonder what meaning there is in this argument As well you may say There were none saved til Christ was risen For salvation also and forgivenes of sinnes to all men came only by the death and resurrection of Iesus Christ So that thus till Christ came in the flesh none of the holy Patriarkes Abraham David and the rest obtayned eternall life And what became of them then But I am perswaded that Abraham David and all the Prophetes dying before Christ was exhibited in the flesh yet by their faith in Gods sure ordinance and promise they had and enioyed Christ truely incarnat slaine and risen againe and this to them was as effectuall then as it is now to vs since the actual performance of these things Whereby even as we by faith so they by the same faith differing onely in the circumstance of time were truely and throughly saved Likewise to the faithfull then by the efficacie of their holy faith Death was properly no punishment but a gaine even as to vs nowe it is Further b you except against me touching innocentes and Martyrs executions Pag. 175. who c I say are most blessed Treat 1. Pag. 38. You reply Their Martyrdomes are shamefull deaths and that is a kinde of Corporall Curse A kinde of Curse Who denyeth that We know all shame affliction to all men is a kinde of Curse
experience of them This same also sundry of the Fathers avouch with vs most fully and even those which your selfe brings for a your selfe Pag. 25. Cyrills wordes before touched are most large Cyrill Theâ—â—ur 10.3 Omnia Christus perpessus est vt nos ab omnibus liberaret Christ throughly suffered all such passions which men doe suffer that he might deliver vs from all Humane â—ature All the passions of †fleshe were stirred in Christ yet without sinne and so that vnles he had dyed we had not bene delivered from death vnles he had feared and sorrowed we had not ben quitt from feare and sorrowe Heere he saith all our passions were stirred in Christes humane nature even so farre as we are cured and so farre as might bee without sinne in him Then I hope by Cyrills iudgement the sense of the true curse and proper wrath of God for sinne was in Christes Soule so faire as it might be painfull and not sinfull seeing Men are subiect to this suffering as the most sharpest among others Lastly by Cyrill here we see that vnles Christ had felt the same suffrings which we feele and are cured of we had not bene delivered of them This also I am sure fitteth not your opinion That one drop of Christes bloud was sufficient for our whole redemption Which was one of your principles in your preaching but in your book you skip it cleane I know not how â—ag 25. 26. Next we may see that c your place of d Ambrosâ— is also fully to the same effect Luc. de â—â—tic dol â—â— A litle after his e former words he saith The ioy of the eternall Godhead being parted away from him Christ was affected with the redioâ—snes of my infirmity â—â—fore pa. 48 He tooke vpon him my sorrow that he might give mee his ioy and he abased himselfe to the sorrow of death in our manner that by the same meanes in him he might bring vs to life He ought therfore to take sorrow that he might overcome sorrow and not exempt himselfe from it that we might learne in Christ to ouercom the sorrow of death approching Wherefore Christ exempted himselfe from nothing in his Passion that we haue experience of as touching Paines and sorrowes And by the same sufferings in him selfe for vs he healeth vs wherevnto we are subiect by reason of sinne So that thus in his agonie hee wrought with a deepe effect that because in his flesh hee killed our sinnes he might also with the sorrow of his Soul extinguish the sorrow of our Soules To this very purpose also a Pag. 47 4â— Naâ—â—anz Fulgent Barnard Tertull. Ierom. many others before rehearsed do affirme most fully Neither is this taking of their sentences any whit to abuse the Fathers which you b Pag. 86. are afraid of You greatly abuse them which take them otherwise namely as if they meant that by the flesh and bloudshed of Christ meerely alone without the merit of his Soules and Mindes proper suffering our whole Ransom were paid As for our comparing the paines of Christs suffering with the paines even of the Reprobats in this life I see not that you nor any man living can finde fault therewith onely set aside their sinfull suffering which alwayes I testifie that Christ was most free from Yea I doubt not but we may compare Christes sufferings in his Agonies touching vehemency of paines even with those of the Damned in hell What the oâ— is betweenâ— Christes Suâ—fering 〈◊〉 Damned Only I conceave betweene Christs and theirs this odds 1 They suffer sinfully 2 Perpetually 3 Locally in Hell All which being excepted otherwise Christ suffered altogither as bitterly as sharpely yea I may say in nature the very same as the Damned doe which therefore may well be called the paines of Hell although yet Hell indeed doeth differ in some great and waighty circumstances as is aforesaid If you say the extreamest paines of punishment caÌ„not be where sinne is not That is true neither in deed can the least paines be where there is no sinne and that no more in the Body then in the Soule though this please not you Marke what I say The extreamest paines of al may as possibly be inflicted where no sinne is as the very least that as well in the Spirit as in the Body But in trueth neither the one nor the other is possible Neither the greatest nor the least paines of Gods proper vengeance for sinne can be inflicted or suffered at all in Soule or in Body but only where sinne is That is to say either imputed or inhaerent Ordinarily the Reprobat are thus punished where sinne is inhaerent Extraordinarily and singularly by Gods owne speciall ordinance Christ was even thus punished yet where sin was but imputed And thus therefore Christes Soule for meere paine might suffer the extreamest spiritual punishments altogeather as well as his body might suffer any at all without inhaerent sinne But you graunt his body suffered truely punishments for sinne Therefore his soule might suffer also even those of the extreamest degree Your “ See beâ—â—â— pag. 14. selfe also granteth that Christ both might and did suffer the extreamest paines that might bee without his owne sinne But it was possible for him to conceave and feele in his a minde farre greater sorrowes and paines for our sinne from Gods wrath â—at ◠〈◊〉 26. then hee could feele meerely in his body outwardly And the greatest was no more sinne then the least though both were properly for sin Therefore by your own grant Christ might and did feele and indure the greatest sorrowes of the minde and soule as well as the lesser in the body being all the very effectes of the wrath of God against sinne â—ag 102. b You bring a reason against this that God spiritually punisheth no man but for his own vncleannes which is a thing meerely vntrue For though no other man was ever punished without his owne vncleannes neither spiritually nor corporally yet Christ our Saviour was who in this case was not in the ordinarie state of men But I pray shewe me this mysterie how it is that God caÌ„not punish Spiritually where there is no inhaerent sinne but can and may Corporally where there is none All the rest of your assertions c heere are altogeather of this sute â—a 101 102 â—03 105. â—66 94. By this one reason I weakened all yours but you could passe that by To this efâ—â—ct Treat 1 â—ag 41 43. answering vnto it not a word Viz d If Christes body hanging on the Crosse and held by Death in the grave was punished by God where yet he found no sinne and which he still intierly loved and was never separated froÌ„ then so hee might did punish properly his Soule also yet never divide his Godhead nor his love from it But thus he did to his body therefore even so hee might doe and did to his
to Christ with all the godly in like cases Wherfore Austins sentence will not helpe you heere Pag. 25. m that Christ was troubled not by infirmitie but by his owne power For he meaneth not only by infirmitie but also by his owne will and power or els you coÌ„fute him yourselfe Neither ther is this any reproch to Christ as n Pag. â— you most iniustly insinuat But as it was glorious to him so to debase his Maiestie for our sakes to take our true and perfit Nature yea to bee humbled therein to the most shamefull death of the Crosse so was it also glorious to him to take all the true weaknesses of our nature togeather and so it was his singular good-will towards vs to become throughly like vs and feelingly subiect to all our Calamities paines and miseries to heale vs of them Only in him the guilt and corruption of sinne it selfe was excepted Faine you would o Pag. 2â— wipe away that ArgumeÌ„t of ours which sticketh neerer to you the you will seeme In Malefactors there is a quiet and contented suffering of most exquisit and extraordinary torments oftentimes The couâ—â— and stâ—â—â— of Maâ—â—ctours â—â—â—ments which they indure only by a naturall strength and courage of minde Howe much more likely is it then that Christ the very rock of all strength and fountaine of patience would not thus seeme affrighted and astonished and so wofully behaving him selfe for his meere bodily death and that before it came vnto him All your answer is that this is no fit comparison for the Sonne of God for they are desperate not having any feare or care of God till they feele the force of his wrath in Hell fyre What an answer is this They have no feare nor care of God What then Yet naturally they have feare and care of most bitter paines and namely then when they feele them If you say before they feele them they are so desperate and so hardened by Satan that they care not for any tormentes that in deed is commonly true But what will you or can you alleage to hinder their full and most dreadfull sense of them when they are in them Satan wisheth them not so much good as to benumme them now in their senses so that the cruell paines of death should not trouble them in the time of their death which hee would rather make more fearfull and intollerable vnto them Let them be then in their life time as desperat as they will yet in death and in the middest of most horrible tortures which oftentimes very quietly they indure surely they cannot choose but feele as liuely and as perfitely as other men doe Only it is a naturall boldnes and strength of minde in it selfe no discommendable propertie that sustayneth them in such extreme paines One instance for all may serve in this kinde even that wretched Murderer of the Prince of Orange in Netherland What strange quietnes did he shew in suffering most wonderfull and rare tormentes vntill death Nowe to make our Saviour Christ lesse able or willing to suffer quietly outward tormentes no greater then that wretch and many other such have suffered I suppose is a bad indeavour And it is no vnfit matter for you to thinke more vpon before you skip it over with silence We compare not the Sonne of God with them but are sure that his Humane nature had beyond all comparison more commendable courage boldnes strength of minde patience and contentment even in the middest of his extreamest paines were they but meere bodily then such caytifs had or possibly could seeme to have This that I say pertaineth alike to the Theeves that were Crucified with Christ Of whom the H. Ghost saith a They were togeather in one and the same Condemnation with Christ 〈◊〉 23.40 That is they suffered from men all one and the like tormentes of death adiudged them by the Magistrate except happily Christ suffered lesse then they because they indured them longer then hee did Yet we finde in none of them any such piteous and strange Complaintes and Cryes and Teares as we finde in Christ But to leave these and to come to the patience of Martyrs in their sufferings That also is admirable what ioy what peace what triumph they shew yea how they sing in the middest of frying flames in their rosting on gridirons in their fleaing off their skinnes and tearing of their fleshe by piece-meales with a thousande other of most strange and butcherly torments no lesse if no greater in outward shewe then the sufferings of our Saviour Christ To this you answer If death be not fearfull to the Servants of Christ they are the more bound to their Lord and Maister Who knoweth not that But what answer is this to our argument And you will also give a reason of your saying Because he was the first that by death disarmed death and severed Death and Hell He was surely both the first and the last both α and ω. For he â—â—ly and none with him nor before nor since him conquered Death and Hell Yet what is this to our Reason The effect that Christ wrought is not our quaestion â—he matter 〈◊〉 or Obâ—â—â— and the â—â—iect of his â—â—ffering are 〈◊〉 question but the maner and kinde of suffering whereby hee wrought it You tell vs of the effect which he perfourmed which we gladly acknowledge viz. that Christ did this in deed by his death he made our death since to be no Cursed death but a blessed death But how did he this by suffering nothing but his meere bodily death only or also a Religious feare of Hell All which other godly men doe also suffer and feele which they take passing ioyfully and quietly But thus Christ did not seeme to doe neyther indeed did he in his Agonie Or did Christ suffer some greater sorrow You say The death which Christ suffered when it approched came fast clasped with Hell What meane you by that meane you that Death and Hell both alike came iointly vpon Christ and that both iointly were ordayned of God to seaze vpon him Then it is thesame that wee affirme Otherwise how came they clasped togeather against him By breaking the knot betwixt Death and Hell he could not be so wofully affected and afflicted above measure as he was if he did not suffer by them somewhat extraordinarily Vnto this you have nothing to answer Only you say he severed them and none ells but only the Sonne of God could dissolve them Which we deny not Neither can we see how Death by Gods ordinance might seaze vpon Christ and not the paines of Hel seeing neither of them is in themselves sin but both alike are the due vengeance of sinne which he was ordayned to suffer so far as was possible Why then did he suffer the one and not touch the other Neither yet do you shew that which you take in hand heere how bodily death is contemptible to the Godly which
manhood also after so low humiliation Finally it was his own most free and fore determined will Would hee then so mournfully grieve and complaine thereat It hath no reason nor likelyhood in it Iohn 1â—â— Lazarus when he was returned from the ioyes of heaven to take againe his rotten carcase ofter it stanke having lyen 4. dayes dead in the grave yet he grieved not at it neither ought he so to have don Much lesse ought Christ so to grieve and mourne for a lesser want and for a shorter season as we may thinke then that was to Lazarus But this matter is not worth the speaking of “ See bâ— to this puâ— pag. 10â— any further Neither doe your Fathers prove any such improbable yea vnlawfull mourning complayning in Christ If they prove any thing towardes your meaning it is this that he complayned because of his bodily dying Howbeit they say not that he thus complayned only and meerely for that neither I thinke will you plainly hold this neither doe wee deny the other The truth is they meane he suffered in his whole Humane nature How the â—â—thers are 〈◊〉 taken namely that he suffered not as God They strove heere with Haeretikes whose controversies were far from this our question f Hilar. 〈◊〉 Trin li. 〈◊〉 Hilary and g Epiph. 〈◊〉 Arioma 〈◊〉 Epiphanius wrot against Arius to prove that Christ in this complaint shewed rightly a humane infirmity and that this was not the voice of a Deity inferiour to the Father as Arius blasphemed These Fathers then had no purpose heere to exclude the sufferings of Christes Soule but only to deny that his Godhead suffered complayned as being left to punishment by his Father when the sorrowes of death began to prevayle against him The very same doth †In Maâ—â— can 33. 〈◊〉 Hilary also where he saith that this in Christ was Corporis vox the outcry of his body He plainly meaneth it of his whole manhood the opposition being betweene it and his Godhead â—reat 1. â—â—g 9. as the Scripture †often doth And where he saith he was morte peragendus to be coÌ„summated by death he meaneth that death ended all his suffering not that hee suffered nothing els but meerely death And if their words do any where come neere to our question â—ertul cont â—â—ax â—â—ila in Mat. â—â—au 33. as it is very likely that h Tertulian and the one place of i Hilary doth then surely they are plainly for vs and against you Tertullian pointeth in this place at certaine Haeresies maintained in his time wherwth it seemeth Praxeas was infected 1 That the Father suffered aswell as the Sonne when Christ suffered 2 That the Deity suffered 3 That Christ was no true nor perfit man All these pointes Tertullian overthroweth heere Quid de isto quaeris c. What inquire you of Christ You heere him crying out in his Passion My God my God why hast thou forsaken me The Sonne therefore suffered being forsaken of his Father but this is meant of the Flesh and of the Soule that is of the Man not of the Word nor of the Spirit Heere it is plaine that Tertullian sheweth besides the rest this point exactly that Christ was a very man in that he had a proper Body and a Soule and that this his suffering on the Crosse was in both these partes and so in his whole intire manhood Also that he suffered in both these parts even froÌ„ his Father â—eere pag. 63. â—at 1. pa 4 But he could not suffer in his Soule froÌ„ †God if he felt only and meerely but a bodily death as you hold And to suffer the stroke of Gods hand in his Soule as the proper vengeance of sin is farre more then to feele in Soule by sympathy only the bodies smart Neither had Tertull. overthroweÌ„ but confirmed that Haeresie of Christs being no true natural man if he had said that in this case he suffered in Soule only by symphathy with and from the Body But this is absurd to thinke in Tertullian Therefore in this place he is flatly against you And this DerelictioÌ„ of his Father which he speaketh of is Death indeed to the Sonne But what death Forsooth more then the separation of the Soule and Body â—at Death â—â—e Soule in â—ist wee â—â—ne Even the seperation of the Deity from the whole manhood which is the death of the Soule I speake heere nothing but the Fathers words yea the Scriptures Your owne place of Epiphanius saith that nowe his Deity departed from his manhood So saith your owne Hilary also Corporis vox contestata recedentis a se Dei dissidium So saith Ambrose Clamavit Homo Divinitatis separatione moriturus The man Christ did cry being about to dy by the separation of his Godhead Againe Sequestrata delectatione Divinitatis aternae taedio meae infirmitatis afficitur The ioy of his eternall Godhead being parted away hee was afflicted with the tediousnis of my infirmitie Heere the Fathers doe shewe in deed that Christ dyed but more then a meere bodily death even the death of the Soule also For what is the Separation of the Deitie from his Soule els but the death of the Soule Howbeit note I pray that neither the Fathers nor I do meane any Separating 1 of the vnion of a The Dâ—â— Humâ—â— both natures in Christ nor the Separating 2 of any Holynes or habituall grace of God from his Soule 3 nor the Separating of Gods love from him See befoâ—â— pag. 10â— but the SeparatioÌ„ of all comfortable feeling assistance of the Godhead in that he felt not any supporting of his Soule and Body now pierced thorow with the Paines which he felt inflicted by God This SeparatioÌ„ is meant and it b Thougâ— haps thâ— ther 's dâ— this phâ—â— rarely may be called the Death of the Soule For as it is c Psal â—â— life to the Soule to feele and to enioy the glorie of God So it is death to feele the want and absence thereof vtterly and the rather being also then overwhelmed with incomparable paines That heavenly life Christ tasted a litle while in his TransfiguratioÌ„ this Hellish Death he felt besides his bodily death vpon the Crosse And thus Tertull. meaneth heere that not Christs bodily death only made him now thus to cry out but that death also which was the Separation of his Godhead from both his body Soule which is the death of the Soule And so he saith true the Dereliction of the Father is Death to the Sonne Your d Pag. â—â—â— 4. Exposition for any thing I see may be granted for it seemeth to bee the same in effect that wee holde Your place of Cyrill seemeth also to concurre that Christes words of complaint were the removing of the dereliction which had fallen on vs. Was it removed from vs then surely it was laid vpon some body els Now that must needes be vpon
same Hee was crucified touching his infirmitie but liveth by the power of God His infirmitie the text heere nameth Metonimically vnderstanding in Christ that in which his infirmities were Now his Soule had infirmities of suffering in it as well as his body Therefore his Soule also is vnderstood heere that it was Crucifyed and dyed that is according to the condicion thereof as likewise his body according to the condicion thereof And thus that which Paul calleth infirmitie Peter calleth Flesh and that which Paul calleth the power of God Peter calleth the Spirit That is his Deitie is set oppositly in both these places to his whole Humanitie even to body and soule Aug. de 4.13 To which purpose that place also to the “ Rom. Romanes doth serve where the like opposition is found as I have shewed betwene the Flesh and the Spirit in Christ that is his Manhood and Godhead Other reasons also * Treat 137 1â— I haue noted serving well heerevnto as the 4 5 and 6. but I omit to rehearse them againe For it seemeth your selfe agreeth with vs in them â—â—g 324. holding a expresly that the Spirit heere in Peter is the Deitie of Christ according to Austins iudgement Now this being granted and acknowledged that the Spirit heere signifieth Christes Godhead how can it be likely but that the other opposit part the Flesh must needes import his whole and intire Manhood Verily thus it seemeth most plaine that Peter heere distributeth the whole and absolute person both God and Man into these Natures the Flesh and the Spirit Wherfore I can not thinke but that the Apostle heere vnderstandeth by Flesh the whole and intire Manhood of Christ even his Soule and his body Now this being so then it followeth by the text that Christ in his Passion was don to death both in Soule Pag. 320. body Heere you obiect that thus I make all the attributes of the body common to the Soule Nay forsooth that I doe not Nor yet this attribute of Dying vnderstood in such sort and maner as the Body properly dyeth that is to become without life and sense I ascribe Death to both but yet according to the divers condicion and state of both â—reat 1. Pâ—g 78. And thus you might vnderstand my b meaning to be where I say it is absurd false that Christ was made aliue in his Humane Soule that is it neither lost nor recovered life and sense so as his body did â—â—â—e before 〈◊〉 135 136 Howbeit as Death is oftentymes attributed to mens soules in the c Scripture that is the feeling of the extreame wrath of God and the punishment for sinne so d I make Death commoÌ„ both to Christes Soule and body â—â—eat 1. â—â—g 79. even to his whole and intire humane Nature Which if you do not acknowledge the shame of ab surditirie and coÌ„trarietie which in your fancy e you accuse me of that Christes Soule dyed and dyed not â—â—g 322. â—â—3 will sit neerer to you theÌ„ to me Also in such a sense I deny not but Christ may be said that he was quickened in the Spirit that is refreshed and comforted againe in his Soule and restored from that bottomles gulfe of sorrowes to the lively feeling of heavenly ioyes and glory which for a season he had no sense of at all Howbeit though this sense bee a true quickening in his Soule yet I deny that heere in this place of Peter it can be translated quickened in the Spirit meaning the Soule because Spirit heere in this opposition is set indeed for the Deitie of Christ â—â—â—d you with â—â—â—stin doe â—â—sent * as before I have shewed Thus the matter I hope is cleere to reasonable men that Christes Soule even according to the Scripture phrase may be said in some sorte to have tasted and suffered Death that is the extreamest feelings of Gods wrath for sinne and the most vehement paines of the damned though not as the damned doe in respect of the Accidents and concomitants of their ordinary damnation but in a singular maner and extraordinarie way as became the sonne of God and a sinles man yet a very maÌ„ being our Redeemer Now besides the matter you “ Pag. 3 gird at me in divers places as where I say The Death of the Soule is such Paines and sufferings of Gods wrath as allwayes accompanie them that are separated from the grace and love of God Forfooth it is true they are alwayes wicked whom these Paines doe accompanie ordinarily They came vpon Christ extraordinarilie as in a Treat â— pag. 77. this place I expresly noted That was therfore my meaning here if you would haue seene it In another place also b Pag. 33. you know that I say Hell as I take it that is such paines of Gods wrath is * Treat 1 pag. 80. sometime found in this life Thus then you might haue vnderstood my former wordes and not that the tormentes of Hell doe alwayes accompanie the wicked in this life I pray conceave not my meaning against my expresse wordes Againe c Pag 31â— you pretende to haue much against me where I say The feeling of the sorrowes of Gods wrath due to sinne in a broken and contrite heart is indeed the only true and perfitly accepted sacrifice to God True so I said and againe I say it What see you amisse in it Then vnhappy men are the godly which are at any time free from the paines of the damned To what purpose is this I speake of Christs Sacrifice I pray is any other Sacrifice perfitly accepted or a Sacrifice at all but Secondarily that is in and by Christes Sacrifice They are not His Sacrifice then is the onely true Sacrifice and perfitly accepted to God All others are imperfit and accepted not in them selues but only in and by Christ Thus your triumphes before the victorie come to nothing but blastes of vanitie But Augustin †Pag. 32 doth flatly deny that this text can be thus vnderstood or that Christes Soule might dy Austin d Epist 9â— denyeth that Christ suffied any paines of damnation locally in Hell after his death as it seemeth some helde about his time whoÌ„ here he laboureth to confute So that he meaneth to reprove onely the e See besâ—â—â— pag 139 1st sense of the Death of the Soule in him viz. that he suffred it not Ordinarily after the maner of other men nor any way locally Hâ— hath no nâ—cessarie cause to speak of the 2. sense thereof how the Soule may be said to suffer death Extraordinarily for sinne imputed only neither doeth he speake against that in Christ Nay according to Austins owne Definition of the Soules Dying it will easily appeare that Christes Soule may be said to have suffered some kinde of Death de verh 〈◊〉 Ser â—0 〈◊〉 Trin. 4. Saith he a Moritur anima si recedit Deus and b Mors est spiritûs deseri Ã
Deo The Death of the Soule is Gods Forsaking of it â—â—fore pag. â— 113. â— 108. 113 â— 134. But the Scripture saith God did leave him or forsake him for a season yea the Fathers also c agree fully therevnto the maner how d I have shewed before Therefore by Austins definition largly and rightly taken Christ may be said in some sense to haue dyed in Soule Howbeit though the Fathers doe graunt the thing in effect as I have shewed yet I acknowledge they doe deny this phrase generally and so doeth Austin in this place But thereabout we never made question this is no parte of our matter It may bee even for the same cause they shunned it for which we also doe vse it very rarely and warily as before I observed Pag 136. And let this be the Answere touching all your Fathers and Councells which you bring aboundantlie heere and there about this point of the Soules death Though peradventure some of them may seeme to insinuat even this very phrase touching Christ sometyme as in some I touched before Where you say â—â—g 317. †Aske the simplest child that is Catechized in my charge if I have any what death Christ dyed for vs and hee will answer me out of his Creed Christ was Crucified Dead Buried It is true But our authorized Catechisme published by M. Nowel and the Homily i sheweth the meaning heereof to be 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 67 117.â— that Christ suffered far more sharply theÌ„ meere bodily Death even the infinit paines of Gods wrath in his soul which I pointed you vnto k before but you fairly leape it over â—â—eat 1. pa. â— as also the Archb. speciall allowance with others of M. Now. Catechisme as being fully grounded on the word of God contayning the very doctrine of the Church of England Now to this effect the youths in my charge being asked would have answered surely For indeed such a charge in London I had I thank God wherin I hope I was faithfull according to my power might have coÌ„tinued had not your il seasoned teaching so contrary to the established doctrine in Englande burst foorth a You say â—ag 325. â—â—a 53.12 â—r hee powâ—â—◠〈◊〉 I should have don well to have laid that downe for a shew which is written in Esay b He c laid downe his Soule vnto death verily if I had it would have made som shew Considering that d Pa. â—6 you earnestly affirme that this word signifieth Soule or Spirit in a proper sense Also how resolute you are forbidding to e Pag. 1â— divert from the native proper significations of words but when the letter impugneth the groundes of Christian faith and charity This considered surely that in Esay maketh some shew indeede that Christ submitted and humbled and afflicted even his Soule to Death The rather if we note that which followeth He was counted with the sinners and bare the sinne of many That is he was punished by God as the sinners are f See besâ—â— pag. 76. punished and was not by the Iewes onely counted among Theeves But chiefly considering withall that also before g Isa 53. â— He made his soule a sinne offering Heere you must remember †Your pa. â— we shall leave nothing sound sure in Gods word if we may avoid all thinges by figures that please not our humours Therefore you must needes grant that Gods worde heere maketh Christs Soule to be †sacrificed for our sinne And we desire no other death of the Soule We deny not but this phrase AnimaÌ„ pâ—nere is to lay downe the life and in divers places signifieth no more then simply to Dy both concerning Christ and other men as you observe pag. 70. Yet this is no necessary reason that heere in J say the Soule should be taken figuratively for the Life onely the rather seeing heere the text precisely setteth down the great perfit worke of our RedemptioÌ„ And to take it as we do literally impugneth no ground at all of faith or Charity The like peradventure may bee affirmed also of that in Mathew h Mar 2â—â— The sonne of man came not to be served but to serve and to give his soule a ransom for many although the translatours commonly turne it his life But I wil not strive about these phrases Aust hath not a word against vs in that great place which i Pag. 32â— you cite his whole argumeÌ„t there being to another purpose The Iewes slew only the flesh of Christ and yet it is true that they slew Christ Who doubteth this Also where you thinke those words to be so k Pag. 327â— plaine and expresse as may be spoken so effectuall as Pauls heart could invent or his toung vtter that Christ reconciled vs to God in the body of his flesh through death we have answered you †Pag. 45. â— before As for al your other discourse heere against me it is as every where almost nothing but revilings and reproches and bitter skoffes Yet you say l Pag 108. â— you have not learned nor vsed to give reviling speaches Have you not learned it Is it then naturall vnto you Nay you meane m Pag. 264â— these are Fatherly Warnings and admonitions If your Fatherly admonitions are such what are your Lordly rebukes If these bee your Bishoply blessinges what are your Cursings But I am to blame heerein standeth not the tryall of our quaestion As for all thâ—se hogepots as n 〈◊〉 3â—8 you call them which you make of my wordes they are nothing but your owne either wilfull writhings or vncharitable surmises as by every particular in then places may be seene Finally that is not true where you say o 〈◊〉 330. Flesh doth often signifie the soule in vs. It signifieth often the whole Manhood togither in vs and so it may and doth in Christ aswell Also it signifieth in vs many times our whole and intire corrupt nature both in body and soule so it never signifieth in Christ And heere I desire the reader to change a word or two in my former Treatise Note â—reat 1. pa. â—6 lin 2. â—â—d lin 7. â— Cor. 7.1 for p allwayes to set vsually and for q a man to set Christ. Because since I find that Flesh and Spirit togeather applyed vnto men doe r once signifie meerely the Body and Soule which then I thought every where did signifie in vs our corrupt and regenerat man Which oversight the Bishop spyeth not but in this place coÌ„firmeth indeed Finally to make an ende with your Fathers and Councels it is strang that you thus vainly boast of them 〈◊〉 135.327 saying they are a all wholy for you for this 1400. yeares space I have shewed before that your large claime proveth a very short gaine For in substance and full effect they are evideÌ„tly and generally against you and for vs. As for their denying that Christ Dyed in his Soule I
now in Hell seeing you seeme to belieue no torments for Damned soules save only at the Resurrection For thus you reason b Pag. 25 As the Body hath ben the instrument of the Soules pleasure in sinne so it shal be of hir paine c Pag. 20â— But all provocations and pleasures of sinne the soule taketh from her body all acts of sinne she committeth by her body Therefore the iustice of God both temporally and eternally punisheth the Soule only by the Body Or Therefore all the Soules paine for sinne both temporally eternally is by the Body This is your owne reason which being true why should you care for corporall fire in Hell before the last iudgment Your striving to a Pag. 34â— confute my allegations of Fathers I hope I have refuted sufficiently before And then b Pag. 35 Sir Refuter endeth as be began with egregious lyes What lyes began he with and with what doth he end In the begining our lyes have proved tales of truth and in the end your wordes will prove iniurious at least I said that not som or the most or best but even all every one both Churches Writers in the world who are Protestants teach as we do except only your selfe or happily som after you since the year 1597. What ly is there in al this Why name you not in al the world one man of those whom we call Protestants of your minde that it may appeare who deserveth such rebukes Nay in this being the very point of the matter you are silent in revilings outcryes and accusations you exceed Where I avouch that c Treat â— pag 8â— only the hoatest and cunningest Papists Iesuits Priests Fryars have alwayes vntill this day had this controversie with all Protestants and all Protestants against them namely Bellarmin Campian English Rhemists c. To al this scanalous suspicious argument you reply not a syllable What shall we thinke of such doctrine which in this learned age hath none but such defenders And yet among the Papists I noted 2 Cusanus and Ferus as liking of the Protestants doctrine heerein which also they do in some other matters Now these 2. and only these though more there are c you cite at large 〈◊〉 140.141 whose wordes indeede especially the Fryars seeme excessive But our owne most worthy and learned Teachers d M. Fulke â—rea 1. p. 88 M. Deering M. Whitakers which against you I alleaged you vouchsafe not a looke towards them Nor to M. Nowels Catechisme nor to the Synod authorising it â—efore pag. 42. nor to the Archb great * approbation thereof Not to our Common Bibles note authorised publikly to be read thorough out England Only against my alleaging of our Homilyes e you take exception Pag 355. but I trust I have before fully and cleerely defended them to bee for vs and against you Neither doeth any such matter appeare in them as f you avouch Pag. 136. Thus then I end our 1. Question being sorry that I have ben so long But I trust the friendly Reader will pardon me considering how I have ben occasioned therevnto A brief Collection containing the whole effect of our Doctrine before delivered brought into 4. Assertions God himselfe in his Iustice properly punished Christ for our sinnes See pag. 8. 9. 75. 82. Christ even as other men consisted of a perfit Humane immortall Spirit and a mortall living Body and so was by nature capable of suffering sorrows for sinne from Gods hand aswell in his Spirit peculiarly and properly as also in his Soule and Body togeather sith other men do thus suffer for sinne pag. 8. 48 52. 61. 74. Gods exact and immutable Iustice spared his Sonne in nothing but did punish him in all severity as he punisheth sinners I meane Hee punished him in All his partes of nature apt to suffer that is in his Spirit peculiarly and properly and in his Soule and Body togeather also Againe God punished him with all the Whole Generall Curse not with all the particular Curses and punishments with the Generall Curse in all the whole Nature and substance of it not with all the Circumstances with all the meere Paine and Sorrow thereof not with the sinfull Adherents and concomitants in it pag. 8 13 74 86. Gods exact immutable Iustice spared not Christe in these Circumstances of Punishment with he suffered not For either in exact Iustice he could not or necessarily hee needed not to punish him so In exact Iustice he could not punish Christ in such respects as were simply and absolutly impossible It was simply impossible that any touch of Sinne should once come neere his person or Eternall suffering or all the Particular punishments in the world All which come not to any one man though Damned neither can come Finally that Christ should necessarily have suffered after this life or locally in Hell there was no cause seeing these are but meerâ— Circumstances of Gods Iust PunishmeÌ„t of sinne whether now or then whether heere or there These alter not the nature of Gods wrath which is the strength of Hell The whole substance nature of that Punishment he might feele in this life aswell as any parte God is able to inflict it aswel heere as heereafter The rather seeing Christ came and was sent of God Extraordinarily of purpose to suffer for sin all that he might suffer Thus then only in this life Christ might and did suffer all For so was Gods ordinance and will as it is plainly expressed vnto vs in his word Therefore so we professe and so we believe by the certaine rule of Gods word and the proportion of faith Christ shunned for our sake nothing which the Damned suffer except only Circumstances and Accidents impossible or vnnecessary not any Substantiall point of Gods Punishment decreed against sinue pag 13. 14. 16. 43. 66. 75. 87. 134. 135. That Christ after his death on the Crosse went not downe into Hell in his Soule THe 2. part of our Controversie is this That Christ after his death on the Crosse went not downe into Hell in his Soule Where note first Notes that we vnderstand Hell properly and locally as our common speach in English doth vsually take it for the very place of the Damned after this life Now against them that belieue Christes Soule did go down locally into Hell thus I reason Reasons gainst Châ—â— Descendiâ—â— locally is Hell First If there be a good and sound generall reason in Christian faith that Christes Soule leaving his Body ascended vp to Heaven and there remained till his Resurrection and if there be no speciall reason of authority to the contrary that his Soul now descended downward then surely every good Christian ought to believe that his Soule ascended to Heaven and descended not locally into Hell Two maâ—â— points to noted But both those former pointes are most true First There is a good sound generall reason in Christian
faith that Christes Soule after death Ascended to Heaven remayned there till his Resurrection Namely the Analogy of faith requireth that the Head should bee there where the members were and where they remaine till their Resurrection that there he tary till his Resurrection It seemeth also these texts wil prove it a Ioh. 1â— Where J am there also shall my servant be b cap. 17 I will that where I am there they also shall be with me I see not but that he promiseth heere his servants even a locall accoÌ„panying of him after this life that also generally whither soever he went Moreover this the Fathers c Only Aâ— wavereth where afâ—â—â—ming foâ— where dâ—â—ting all with one voyce I may truly affirme do teach and believe even that Christ after death went no whither but where his faithfull and holy servants were yea and there remayned till his Resurrection To which consent of men somewhere you ascribe exceeding much so that d Perpeâ—â—vern episâ—â— 10. you plainly avouch the coÌ„trary alwayes to be a notorious if not a pernicious novelty To which purpose also other Scriptures doe make very much as where Christ being in the paines of death and presently about to end his life saith Father into thy hands I commend my Soule This being spoken at such a time in the depth of such wofull sorrowes and by such a person in all good reason Gods hands whereinto he commendeth his Soule according to our common vse of speach must be Gods ioyfull peace and Heavenly glory which is also suteable to the scripture phrase as already I have shewed â—reat 1. â—â—g 151. â—â—g 361. neither shew * you any thing against this For what if Gods hands on other occasions do signifie his Power and generall protection only Doth it follow that therefore Holy men oppressed with paines and now about to Dy when they say Father into thy handes I commend my Soule they meane not the ioyes of HeaveÌ„ You aske was David dying when he spake those words He might bee in deadly sorrowes or dangers for any thing you know to the contrary But suppose he were not theÌ„ in danger to dy Yet the Prophets generall sentence may fitly be applyed to this more speciall case of Christ as all men know Howsoever then David were when he spake thus yet Christ now dying ready to come out of most wofull paines doth surely meane when he said so as other holy men do in like case namely to go to Heavâ—n To like purpose serveth that comfort given to the Theefe and common to himselfe This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise As touching †Austius divers opinion and yours â—our p. 360 â—ag 29. see before Be you reconciled vnto him and then let him speake for you Lastlie where the eternal and generall Ordinance of God is shewed to be such â—â—â—k 16.26 that * none can goe out of Heaven downe to Hell nor come from Hell vp to Heaven The text excepteth heere not one This therefore I doubt not is in truth a cleere point against which wee shall find not a worde in scripture that Christes Soule after death was there where the holy Patriarkes deceased were there remayned till his Resurrection So that how you will doe to maintaine that Christ c went indeed vnto them 〈◊〉 220.361 but presently left them that hee might go to Hell I know not In this I doubt you walke f without your guide â—â—g 91. But to proceed I adde that which is a cleere and certaine 〈◊〉 189.193 〈◊〉 219. yea that which g your selfe rightly beleeveth and professeth with vs though against the opinion of the Fathers That the Soules of the holy Patriarkes dead before Christ were not beneath but above not in Limbo but with God in peace ioy blissee even in Paradice 〈◊〉 192.203 that is h Heaven The which to be a doctrine most true against the Popish errour heerein I have briefly i heerto fore â—â—eat 1. â—â—g 131. yet I hope sufficiently proved Therefore hence I conclude that Christs Soule after his death Ascended indeede and descended not downward beneath vs heere 2. Only except there be some speciall reason of good authority to the contrary which is the second point of importance heere to be considered Touching which this I say without expresse and evident Scripture there is in the worlde no sound nor meet authority to disprove our former Reason and Conclusion This also Austin himselfe avoucheth well and faithfully that is supposing there is no expresse nor plaine Scripture for Christs Descending then saith he a Epist â— Miror si quam ad ros cum dâ— dissâ— asserâ— auderet it were marvailous bouldnes that any should dare say he went down to Hel. And againe b Serm. â—temp 14 Nemo de Christo credat nisi quod de se credi voluit Christus No man ought to believe any thing concerning Christ but what himself in his word would have vs to believe Now I assume this and by Gods helpe shall make it manefest No Scripâ—â— at al that Châ—â—â— Soule asâ—â— death dâ— soended That there is in all the Scripture no one place whereby it may bee proved by any shew of reason that Christs Soul after this life went locally downward from hence or diversly from the Soules of all good men deceased besides Yea whatsoever is pretended from the Scripture expresly to prove that he did Descend is but very little and exceeding weake Script prâ—ded Only there are 2. or 3. places sensibly wrested and drawen to this purpose 1. c Your paâ—â— 212. That where Christ is said to have d â—ph 4. come downe into the lowest partes of the earth * Treat â—â—â— pag. 14â— But I have largely and plainly shewed that this place speaketh not a whit neither of Hell nor of Christs Soule descending locally neither before his death nor after It noteth only Christs sensible and apparant Humiliation to the last and lowest point that is to the Grave According to the Hebrue phrase which the Apostles frequented in their Greeke writings very much So that no reason appeareth why or how this place may shew that his Soule after death went downward The rather seeing you will have Christes going downe d Pag 41 to Hell the first and that a notable part of his exaltation and triumph But this was manefestly as I said his lowest abasement Therefore this toucheth not his going down to Hell Where e Pag. 2â— you expound the text say He descended to the lowest and ascended to the highest that he might fill all places with the presence of his Manhood you speake both f In respeâ—â— vbiquitaâ—â— inconveniently and far from the Apostles meaning Who signifieth only Christes filling g Ephe. 1. â— 19 all his Church with the giftes of his Spirit which by his Ascending he h Ioh. 16 7â— Luck 24 4â— promised
haue another age “ Dâ—r◠〈◊〉 age my coâ—â—nuance or during oâ— my maÌ„sioÌ„ or induring or Mansion and be remoued to another place This can not be vnderstood of his Carcase rotting and wasting away to nothing in the graue and therefore indureth not as the word signifieth therfore he meaneth it of his Soules removing and abiding elswhere Also he expresly opposeth the land of the living to Sheol therfore Sheol is the land of the dead not the graue only nor Hell only * Which alâ— to be collecâ— of that in Prophet toâ—â—ing Christ scinditurâ— râ viventiâ— Isai 53.8 but as large and as generall to the dead and as fit to receaue both the partes of men yea both good and bad men but separated and dissolved as the land of the living is to receave both those partes vnited and knit togeather Againe Hezekiah was a godly man therefore hell was not for him also though hee should not see the Lord in the land of the living which was the thing he desired yet thereby hee seemeth to insinuate that in the land of the dead hee might see him whither he was about to go and that must needes be the place of blessed Soules even that which heere is noted by the word Sheol â—â—g 150. It is a most vaine reason that you give that sheol heere is to be taken for Hell and so to be translated because death to the wicked is the passage to Hel which death Hezekiah was now neere vnto It is vntrue that Hezekiah was neere vnto that death which the wicked dy or that he feared that kind of death or that there is no sound differeÌ„ce betwene the death of the godly the death of the wicked or that by any meanes according to sound divinity the death of the godly may be named or taken for Hell This is so vaine that I will not stand any longer to answere it Another obiection of yours a is as weake Pag. 400. where you say Sheol heere must be the Grave because it is said b afterward ver 18. Sheol doth not confesse the death cannot praise thee c. Though I grant that the Grave is not heere excluded especially in the words next after They that go down to the pit cannot hope for thy truth yet I affirme that Sheol namely in the former place vers 10. cannot exclude the mansion of good mens soules departed hence that for the reasons aboue noted Neither heere doth this circumstance limite it to the Grave onely because it is said Sheol confesseth not thee For it is evident that He Zekiah meaneth not absolutly that there is no praising of God in Sheol but onely hee vnderstandeth that which c hee so greatly desired â—hich was ytâ—â—inary great â—re of the â—lly geneâ—y psal 42. 84.1 the outward frequenting of the Temple the holy Ceremonies and Sacrifices ioyning to the visible congregation and publishing of Gods goodnes to others Which hee expresseth immediatly to be that praising of God that he meaneth cannot be in Sheol by knitting close to the former these words d The living â—sa 38.19 the living he shall confesse thee as I do this day the Father to the Children shall declare the truth This is that which he denieth of sheol that none there doe praise God to the example and edifying of others He denyeth not simply nor absolutly that there is none in sheol at all in any respect that praise God The very same David expresseth also very plainly Psal 116.9 saing e I shall walke before the Lord in the land of the living Psal 118.17 and f I shall not dye but live and declare the workes of the Lord. Where vnlesse they meant only this visible praysing of God to others edifying otherwise these holy men had no cause so greatly to desire to praise God heere for they knew very wel how that for their own parts they should prayse him much better and more perfitly in the next world The Seâ—â—â—â—gint vse 〈◊〉 in the fanâ—â—â—â—â— To the very same purpose the Septuagint vse hades in other places also besides in their translating of these aforesaid For it is truly and well acknowledged by you g Pag 4â— that both these wordes Sheol and Hades are iust all one Now the Septuagint I say in other places do shew thus much also h Psal 9 〈◊〉 after the â—â—â—tuagint Jf the Lord had not holpen me my soule had almost dwelt in Hados in Hebrue it is in silence Which is not meant of hell for there is weeping and wayling and gnashing of teeth but of the state of death Nor yet of the Grave onely because heere it is named to bee the Habitation of the Prophets soule whither it was almost come when he was like to have dyed Againe i Psal 7â— My soule was filled with sorrowes and my life drew neere to hades How my soule and my lift heere are taken for the selfe same I have shewed before As also in that of Iob k Iob. 3â— his life or soule is in hades in the world of the Dead Againe it suffiseth for our purpose that Hades and Sheol are often vsed even indifferently for “ Sheoll 〈◊〉 Hades aâ—â—â—sed often 〈◊〉 only Deaâ—â— effect Thanaâ—â—â—mors Death and as being in effect the same or for the state and Condicion of Death or the Power of Death Which also sometime we may likewise conceave of the Latin Inferi which is by the Translatours and other writers vsed for Sheol and Hades though I deny not very daungerously and corruptly in deed First for a Pro. 2â— misheol the Greeke hath ek thanátou from death reckoning Death and Sheol to be all one So in Ecclesiastes b Eccle. Sheol and c veâ—s Hammethim the dead are in effect all one And the very same doeth Esai call d Isa 3â— Shagnare Sheol the gates of sheol which the e Psa 9. â— 107.18 Psalmes and f Iob. 3â— Iob doe call Shagnare maueth the gates of Death In the * Pâ—o. 3â— and 27â— Proverbes he meaneth Death not Hell nor the Grave strictly taken where by an excellencie the greedines of it is noted for being Neuer satisfied For Death generally craâ—eth more then either Hell or the Grave strictly taken do So likewise Abakuk coupleth them togeather as being in effect alone “ Abaâ— Like sheoll and Death it will not be satisfied Thus also it will appeare that that which g Psal â— David reioyseth for the very same in effect h Psal â— Christ heere reioyseth for Only with this difference David reioyseth that God had delivered his soule from death theÌ„ when he was likely to have dyed Christ reioyseth because God would deliuer his soule from the Condicion of Death sheol after he was in it speedily even before his flesh should corrupt This might be evideÌ„tly shewed in infinit places mo but that it is vtterly needles In this
sense it is that the Reprobates and the Elect after death are said to be togither â—â—n 28.19 a To morrow thou thy sons shal be with vs saith the supposed Samuel to Saul Not that there is any positive thing common to the Elect and Reprobates after death which b you observe wel â—â—g 396. 〈◊〉 Simpâ—â—li â—â—qaest 3. â—â—g 209. but only that they be alike dead and alike remain in death Yet I say they are not like any further This c Aust very well sheweth whom you d bring saith he mortuus mortem vivo proenuntiabat Fathers 〈◊〉 it me our 〈◊〉 of Hadea that is being dead he foreshewed death to him that yet lived So that it was the same condition of death both to Saul and Samuell but not the same fruition of happines Thus the old Latin Translatour vseth Infernum as coÌ„monly for Hades so sometimes for e Thanatos death â—ct 2.24 â— Cor. 15.55 â— Act. 2.24 â—piph in â—â—nacephal 〈◊〉 Anchor â—ustin In â—â—yph and sometimes f Mors death for Hades Epiphanius readeth the g Text indifferently h Thanátou or i Hadou as reckoning theÌ„ in effect all one Justin Martyr long before saith k Christ a little before his death noted the folly of those men tôn nomizónton me êinai auton Christon all hegonménon thanatôsein auton kai hós koinon ánthropon en hadou menein that thought him not to be Christ but that he should dy and remaine in Hades as a common man Hee meaneth not heere as a wicked man in Hell but as any common man whether good or bad dying abideth in Death or in the Dominion of Death or in the world of the Dead Irenaeus saith l Heerein Christ legem mortuorum servavit did but as others do that Dy â—nae lib. 5. 〈◊〉 vlt. conversed 3. dayes vbi erant Mortui sancti where the dead Saintes were And this hee calleth Locum invisibilem the vnseene World What meaneth this but Hades â—es an inviâ—â— place of yeâ—ed Soules as we take it Yea a little before he expresly calleth it Paradise Nevertheles I grant that he thought this vnseene world was indeed beneath in the earth wherein his proofes do vnterly faile him as your selfe do fully grant and professe in that point aswell as wee Againe m hee further sheweth that in the n Scripture he taketh Hades to be all one with Death â—ib 5.13.3.38 â— Cor. 15.55 or the Dominion of Death where he readeth the Text thus Absorpta est mors in victoriâ vbi est mors aculeus tuus vbi est o mors victoria tua â— Greek â—â—des Death is swallowed vp in victorie Death where is thy sting Death where is thy victory And he addeth Haec autem iustè dicentur tunc c. These thinges shall truly be spoken then when this mortall and corruptible flesh about which Death is and which is holden down by a certaine Dominion of Death arising vp into life shall put on incorruption and immortality Then verily shall death be overcome when the flesh which is holden by it shall come foorth out of the Dominion thereof Thus he taketh heere Thanatos and Hades for one and the same thing in effect that is for Death and the power of death and nothing els Tertulian doth likewise for a Terrulâ— Anima 〈◊〉 speaking of Inferi which he taketh for the same that Hades is hee noteth it as the place Quò vniversa Humanitas trahitur whither all mankind must go And therefore of Christs going thither he saith b Cap. 5â— Quia homo mortuus secundum Scripturas sepultus secundum easdem hic quoque legi satisfecit formâ humanae mortis apud inferos functus Because also he was a man therefore he dyed according to the Scriptures was buryed according to the same also heere he satisfied the common law of nature by following the forme of mens Dying and going to the world of the Dead Tertullian is for vs yet further Hee taketh Hades in the c 1 Cor. â— Newe Testament meerely for Death or the Dominion of Death even as Irenaeus before did Thus he readeth the Text that often times d De Râ—carn c. 4â— 54. Vbi est mors aculeus tuus Vbi est “ Hadeâ— mors contentio tua Aculeus autem mortis delinquentia virtus autem delinquentiae Lex O Death where is thy sting O Death where is thy force The sting of Death is sinne the force of sinne is the Law And againe e Adverâ—cion 5. Scriptum est apud f Hose Creatorem Vbi est g Sheol 〈◊〉 Hades mors victoria vel contentio tua Vbi est mors aculeus tuus Verbum autem hoc Creatoris est apud Prophetam It is written by the Creatour Death where is thy victory or thy force or strife Death where is thy sting This is the worde of the Lord God by the Prophet Ozee Still he maketh Hades Sheol nothing els but Death in these places And saith he Deo gratias dicit h 1 Cor. â— Apostolus quod nobis victoriam vtique de morte prestitit The Apostle in the New Testament applying words of the Prophet to the Resurrection giveth thanks to God because he causeth vs to get a victory indeed of Death So still he maketh Hades to be Death and not Hell Which yet is further most cleerely to be seene i De Idoâ— cap. 13 〈◊〉 See also 〈◊〉 before pâ—â— Lazarus apud inferos in sinû Abrahae refrigerium consecutus c. Lazarus in the world of the Dead inioyeth comfort in Abrahams bosom contrariwise the Rich man is in the torments of fire both of them there receaving their divers rewardes How cleere is this that he maketh Hades and Inferos even in a Luke also â—â—â—e 16.23 to be nothing but the common state and world of the Dead Wherevpon the learned Junius noteth thus Observandum autem quod ait Apud Jnferos etiam de Lazaro Nam inferos Latini Patres vt Graeci Haden pro omni loco aut statû mortuorum dixerunt promiscuè Atque in hunc sensum Lazarus Dives apud inferos collocantur 〈◊〉 before â—â—â—g 162. â—â—â—m de â—it 〈◊〉 anima 〈◊〉 55. Quomodo b Irenaeus c Chrysostomus ex verbis Luc. 16.23 locuti sunt TertullÃanus locis quamplurimis This therefore it is that Tertullian saith in another place d Constituimus omnem animam apud inferos sequestrari in diem iudicij We determine that every mans Soule is kept apart in the worlde of the dead til the day of iudgment And Are all soules theÌ„ in the power of the kingdom of Death penes inferos Will you nill you there you shall finde punishments and comfortes as in Lazarus and the Rich man For why should you not thinke that the Soule may be both punished and comforted in inferis in the Worlde of the dead Neither doth he c Montanize in this as
f you obiect but consenteth with Irenaeus before and with others after him as shall appeare 〈◊〉 Innius 〈◊〉 on this chap. 188. who were no Montanists Notwithstanding it is true that somewhere he taketh inferos pro locali determinatione as he speaketh for the peculiar and determinat place of the wicked deceased that is Hell strictly and properly 〈◊〉 4. Thus he doth in that g against Marcion wth you cite pag. 201. Also in that h obiection of certaine Haeretikes whom hee confuteth 〈◊〉 anima 55. not the true Christians as i you k misconceave They argued thus as you do in hoc Christus Jnfiros adiit ne nos adiremus 188. 〈◊〉 title of â—ooke in â—â—â—elius â—â—â—s editioÌ„ Christ therefore went to Hell to the ende that wee might never come there He aunswereth them that it is false that Christe went to Jnferos in that sense that is to Hell for then what difference is there betweene the wicked Heathens and the godly Christians if one the same prison after death were for them both Taking it for a thing generally granted in the church that Christ being dead went onely thither where the godly Dead were and therefore that it were a wicked and Haereticall thing to thinke he went where the Damned were that is into Hell And so he quite overthroweth your opinion togeather with the reason thereof as an opinion whiche if any helde they were ill thought of in those dayes 〈◊〉 99. De â—â—â—es ad lit 〈◊〉 33. Thus also is Augustin well l vnderstood where he denyeth that the Patriarkes were apud inferos in Hell namely the place of the Damned because they were in Abrahaâ—s bosom Which yet b Epist 5â— De civi â— 20.15 elswhere he graunteth vnto that they might be apud inferos in the world of the Dead namely where the Godly dead should be So that thus if you had but distinguished these and other Fathers like words as you ought to haue done there needed no such folly of Contradiction to be imputed vnto them as c Pag. 18â— 200. 204 you doe lay to their charge in this point altogeather vndeservedly Which being well observed you shall see that all the Fathers as Mr Iunius saith both Greeke Latin do take Hades and inferos d Promisâ—â— indiffereÌ„tly for the state of the Dead as wel pertayning to that Soules of the Godly as to the Damned likewise Athanasius also saying e Athanas incar Châ—â—â— vbi tenebatur anima humana in morte ibi exhibuit humanam suam animam Where Humane Soules were held by Death there he brought his humane Soule Meaneth nothing els but that his humane Soule came vnder the same condicion of death as other mens Soules did not that he went to the place of the DaÌ„ned Neiter must he be vnderstood after f Pag. 179 186. 214. your partiall translatioÌ„ but after his owne language the Greek When you say ex Orco out of Hell him selfe saith exhadou out of the power of Death So that g De saluâ—â— vent Châ—â—â— hee saith not a word that Christ was in Hell but onely that his Soule was in Hades in the Dominion of Death as h Ad noâ—â—â— similitudâ— other good mens Soules were also whence he by his victorious returne conquering Death i De salut advent Câ—â—â—stâ— brought vs immortalitie and wrought resurrection for vs. Heere Hades being ennemy and opposit to the Immortalitie and Resurrection of mens persons cannot by any meanes be Hell For Hell agreeth with Immortalitie and Resurrection in Hell shal be immortalitie and resurrection as well as in HeaveÌ„ But it is the common Death and dissolution of our persons which is contrarie to the immortalitie and resurrection of them For as Resurrection is nothing els but a restoring and revniting of the Soule to the Body so the contrarie is nothing els but meerely the dissolution and separation of the Soule from the Body which is Death and not Hell Now in this death saieth Athanasius Christ was held till he spoyled and conquered it thereby giving vs resurrection and immortalitie This can not be Hell out of questioÌ„ Hilarius verily hath this meaning also saying k Hilar. â— Psal 13â— This is the Law of humane necessitie that their bodyes goe down to the Grave their Soules to the world of the Dead ad inferos Which descent the Lorde did not refuse that he might prove him selfe in every point to bee a true man His going to Hell proveth him not to be a true man but his Soul to com vnder the power of Death as well as his body to com to the Grave 〈◊〉 koinoâ—â—â—â—ôpos â—â—â—em morâ—â—â— servaâ—â— that right well proveth him in deed to have bene a true man and wholy in nature like all other men Also this was indeed the Lawe of humane necessitie after the like phrase as a Iustin â—â—â—gi satisfaâ—â—â— forma huâ—â—â— mortis â—â—â—us â—ag 157. â—efore 〈◊〉 Death â—â—es aâ—e vâ—â—â—or the same b Irenaeus and c Tertullian also speake but not to goe to Hell Now this Death properly beloÌ„geth to the Body of Men d as it is left without life Also no lesse properly it beloÌ„geth to the whole Person of men as it is dissolved and destroyed thereby Thirdly by consequence it beloÌ„geth to both the dissolved partes yea even to the immortall Soule though blessed not as it is in blessednes but as it remayneth held from the Body by the force of Death And so all these last named are very excellent places to prove which afterward I shall further shew that all those articles of the Creed He Dyed was Buryed and descended to Hades do indeed signifie but one thing in effect that he was a true man seeing thus it befell him as it doeth all other men by the Law of our Nature that is to Dye And therefore that it was cleane left out in all ancient Creedes where both those other clauses are specified as being no divers point in effect from Dead and Buryed Which Creedes nevertheles are worthily deemed to be absolute and perfit touching Christes workes of Redemption which hee hath wrought for vs. Since perhaps when it came into the Common Creed they signified heereby Christes going to Limbus Which opinion indeed men generally inclined vnto though erroneously for many yeares yet that the Ancients put this Descending to hades meaning Limbus or howsoever into the vulgar Creed distinctly from both the other foresaid clauses I beleue not The contrary is proved afterwardes as anon we shall see But to proceed heere â—â—rys Hom. â—ivit de 〈◊〉 bol Tom. in 1. Cor. Hom. 40. â—â—â—asil in 〈◊〉 48. â—â—â—mbr de 〈◊〉 mort 〈◊〉 10. â—â—â—rom in 〈◊〉 1â— 14 â—â—â—uffin in â—â—â—bol 〈◊〉 413.414 c Chrysostom and d Basill likewise with the rest of the Greeks may be noted how they yeeld Hades to the Soules of the godly and iust men deceased remayning in ioyes Also Ambrose
this last way is not the vnlikelyest Hades heere signifieth in effect nothing els but Death that Christs Soul departed this life was held therein but could not be holden fast â—â—g 166. You obiect c We must not make a Figurative sense but where manefest need is Heere is no need of a figurative sense Therefore heere ought to be no Figure supposed I answer First wee grant your Conclusion whether of the 2. former wayes soever that we take hades so there is simply no Figure at all therein Sec Then your own sense of Hell in this place is cleane overthrown by your selfe For whensoever hades and sheol do signifie Hell it is indeed by a Figure namely Synékdoche where the Whole is set for a part Which I have proved at large before â—â—re pag. particularly by d Tremellius a sufficient man for his Hebrue skill Wherefore by this reason Hell cannot possibly be meant heere if no Figure be admitted Third it seemeth convenient and also likely to take hades heere by a Prosopopoea after our 3. sense before noted Which kind of Figure supposeth as it were a Person of that thing which otherwise a word properly signifieth So that by this figure nothing of the wordes native signification is diminished Thus our word hades is vsed in the Corinthians O Hades where is thy victory Also as it may seeme in the Revelation Death Hades were cast into Hell â—â—ther as pa. 17â— Thus then it is nothing but emphatically signifying the power of Death Fourth Admit that hades and sheol did properly signifie Hell as we see they do not Likewise that sometime they signifie only the Grave which also you acknowledg it is true when it is applyed to a dead Body Againe admit that nephesh by a Figure may signifie the whole Person yea e the dead Body somtimes 〈◊〉 doth 〈◊〉 21.1 〈◊〉 2â— 4 Then I affirme that heere in this place of necessity there ought to be vnderstood a Figurative sense Heere is plainly most necessary cause For take them thus literally as you doe and they impugne the groundes of faith and charitie Which f Pag 1â— you grant that rightly is sufficient to cause a Figurative sense in Scripture But how do they impugne faith or charity being taken as you take them Verily thus Your sense implyeth by the way and consequently Points in Assertion â—â—â—trary to â—â—â—coÌ„mon â—â—oâ— Faith 〈◊〉 charity that a good and sinles man yea the best that ever was worthy of Paradise and the highest Heavens yet after death did go to Hell And further that being in Heaven yet he stayed not there as you say but immediatly came out againe to go into Hell Againe that a Humane soule being in the depth of Hell yet should feele no paines and that being locally in hell it should com out thence also What can be more against the generall rules of the Scripture then these things Yea how doth this impugne our generall charity towards all the iust when they dy Besides many other disproportions and vnreasonable inconveniences following withall as anon we shall further see Wherefore if by any meames possibly a Figure may be heere admitted certainly it must be so for these most necessary causes last rehearsed The rather seeing no other text any where insinuateth any such peculiar matter in Christ that he should differ in these points from all good men els as you do vrge But you say The Cirâ—â—stances 〈◊〉 against yâ—â— the circumstances heere doe prove that the word must be Hell properly taken That I would faine see What are these circumstances First this place sheweth * Pag. 1â— a special prerogative verified in none but in Christ I deny it heere is no such prerogative mentioned Except this that whereas some other men after death have returned to life againe it was not by their owne power as Christs ResurrectioÌ„ was Againe God in his revealed wil having signified by his Prophet long before that he should be restored speedily to life againe thus it was simply impossible that Christ should be holden fast by the power of Death although it had got hold of him And so indeed he had a prerogative before all men ells which also is heere shewed vs but no other prerogative in the world neither heere nor any where els caÌ„ be gathered touching his returne from Hell You adde No flesh dead was ever free from corruption but only Christes What then Ergo his Soule was in Hell Or ells why bring you such needles and impertinent matter Besides I iudge that not to be true Were not a Pag. 1â— some being dead raised to life againe before their flesh putrified But nonâ— you say in the sepulchre And what then How will this inferre or prove that so none but Christs Soul was ever supported in Hel or that it was ever there These are simple reasons for so great a conclusion Then you say Jf by Hell we vnderstand Paradise it was no privilege to be there not forsaken but rather a childish absurdity to thinke any Soule might be there forsaken It is a strange absurdity still to abuse your reader calling this word Hel â—â—tio prinâ—◠〈◊〉 which indeed is nothing but Death in effect the Power of death or the condition and state of death Againe to presume that wee take it for Paradise or Heaven or Hell at any time when we referre it allwayes to the generall state of the Dead and no further immediatly Now in this Christ had cause to reioyce that neither his Soule nor Body was left but so soone raysed vp to perfit life againe and so sitted to a full receaving of glory which within few dayes after he had Also besides this cause his deliverance from the condition of death he had an other inestimable cause to reioyce that he was raised to life againe namely that he might fulfill his whole work for our Salvation which before his Resurrection Ascension c he could not accomplish â—â—g 170. Further b you obiect that Peter maketh mention that the sorrows of death were broken that they should not hold Christ nor hinder him from rising againe But there were none such in the Grave none in Paradise Therfore in Hel Christs Soule was whence he was delivered when he rose againe I denie vtterly this sequele Because the text saith not that there were any present sorrowes in Hades where Christ was Heere is not a word to any such purpose 〈◊〉 2.24 What saith the text God raised him vp loosing the sorrowes of Death because it was impossible for him to bee holden fast of it Wil you coÌ„clude froÌ„ hence Ergo there were present sorrows in that place where Christ was There is no strength in this reason The Apostle signifieth heere 2. or 3. things 1. That God loosed Death froÌ„ him wherein hee was held but could not be holden fast 2. That this Death had bene a most sorrowfull painfull Death
the Apostle mentioneth the i Ephe. 2.2 Ayre and that k cap. 6.12 on high as being the place of Divels Notwithstanding far be it from me to affirme that hell certainly is not beneath Yet your pretended scripturs are meerely forced to prove it As in the chief I have shewed already In the rest it will appeare likewise anon Howbeit wheresoever Hel indeed is though we do grant in it to be locally in the earth beneath vs yet every Opposition betwene Shammajim the Heavens or Skyes and Sheol doth not signifie the opposition betweene Heaven and Hel. This you shall never be able to prove Shammajim thus placed signifieth the Skyes not the very place of Heavenly glory in the presense of God which in English we call Heaven And Sheol thus placed signifieth not Hell the place of torments but it is taken thus 2. wayes Somtime for †a vast and deepe Gulfe only or pit in the earth Abyssus the bottom wherof we know not Amos. 9.2 Iob. 11.8 Psa 139.8 So doe a many of your places meane which you draw and wrest to signifie Hell Somtime for Ruine and Destruction or Abolishing of any visible Creatures from hence which seemeth to be the largest most proper sense of Sheol â—heols proper sense So doth it in Jsay signifie where Sheol is threatned to the King of Babel b Though thou be lifted vp to the Skyes Isa 14.15 yet shalt thou bee brought downe to Sheol that is in this place to an inglorious Destruction and No being in this word and thy carcase vnto the sides of the pit that is the Grave This the contrariety heere sheweth Thougâ— thou be lifted vp to the Skyes He meaneth not heere into the glory of the Saints of God in Heaven but lifted vp in great pomp and worldly glory as the Latin phrase meaneth also when they say ad sydera tolli Now saith the Prophet to this King of Babell Though at this time it be thus with thee yet surely thou shalt be brought down to the contrary point to an inglorious Destruction and a wiping out from the Earth Which sense of Isay is also very well confirmed by the like matter in Ieremy c Though Babel should mount vp to the Heavens â—er 51.53.4 and though she should defend her strength on high yet from me shall her Destroyers come saith the Lord. A sound of a cry cometh from Babel and of great Destruction from the Chaldeans c. Where that which Isay called Sheol Ieremy speaking of the very same matter nameth Destruction vtter laying wast and overthrowing of that City and State And so to come to our purpose A very Heâ—raisme d this is the very same phrase heere in Mathew touching Capernaum Thou Capernaum which art lift vp to the Heaven shalt be brought down to Hades that is to Destruction to an inglorious Not being any more in the world as before time it had ben â—â—des DestructioÌ„ Razing â—aking away Which also is confirmed by that which he addeth presently of Sodom that if they had had the meanes of repentance as Capernaum had Sodom might have remayned a City to this day Inferring by this that Capernaum for their greater contempt of God and his word deserved more then Sodom to be destroyed to becom no City Hitherto this is the first iudgment threatned to the state of the City Hades Destruction or an vtter razing out from the earth The 2. iudgment heere threatned followeth in the next verse Moveover I say vnto you that it shal be easier for them of the land of Sodom in the day of iudgment then for these Heere indeed is Hell threatned to them of Capernaum yet as touching that before there was nothing els but the overthrow and destruction of their Citie signifyed by that worde Hades applyed to the Citie as is before declared And contrary to this you haue not any piece of reason in al that “ Pa. 147 1â— 409. you say here about The world of Souls which †Pag. 403.409 you play withall Hades may and doeth signifie but yet then only when it is referred to deceased Soules not otherwise Next let vs view the Corinthes a Pag 408. 1. Cor. 1â— 55 O Death where is thy victorie O Hades O Destruction or O Power of Death where is thy sting Heere it is referred to the destruction of the whole and intire Persons of men taken away by death out of this worlde who in the end by this conquest and triumph over Death the power therof at the last day shal be restored to life againe in a true and perfit Resurrection and restitution This is the whole scope and drift of the Apostle heere and you graunt it But you inferre that therfore it is meant of Hel. Of Hell which way Because since by sinne Hell gat possession of both partes of man aswell of his body as of his Soule the full deliverance and conquest ouer Hell is not but in the Resurrection This is very vntrue Our full deliverance from Hell and from Satan is obtayned in this life as it is written b Luke 1.7 We being delivered from our enemies and from the handes of all that hate vs must serve him without feare all the dayes of our life in bolines and righteousnes before him That is we being heere truly iustified by his grace are fully freed and delivered from all the power of our enemies Satan is c Luke 11. 〈◊〉 Rom 8.33 Ioh. 8.51 5 5.24 conquered spoyled bound and cast out from vs. So that your speach is very bad and scandalous where you say d Pag. 216. The bodyes of the Saintes lying in their graves are in the Divells walke For then the Graves where bodyes ly senseles are a part of Hell properly taken At least the Deaths of the Reprobat and of the Children of God e Answerab to your doâ—trine pa. 24 touching the state of their bodyes till the resurrection are all one And men truly iustified are iustified but in their Soules Sinne remayning stil charged on their Bodies and therefore in their bodyes they remaine subiect to the power of Hell and to the curse of the Law and to the claime of Satan till the day of our Resurrection at the last iudgement You call it 〈◊〉 part of the â—ages of sin And thus the godly must pay a part of their own redemption and satisfaction for sinne And then Christ was not our only and absolut Redeemor If this be good doctrine let the godly iudge Your selfe overthroweth this enough Pag. 156. saying f He changed the curse of death and made it now a rest from all labours So that I hope the Bodyes of the dead Saintes are not in the * Divells walke Nor subiecâ—ed to the Râ—â—ge of Saâ—an much lesse are they g in the possession of Hell Pag 216. in the handfast of Hell Further you say vpon the text Pag. 178
h Through death Christ destroyed him that had the power of death that is the Divell Pag. 179. Whereby i it is evident that Hell is spoyled of all right and claime to the members of Christ hee brake c. I hope in this life the godly are the members of Christ then in this life they are fully freed from Hell for euer Wherfore it is very vntrue that Hell properly taken hath any possession of the iust and handfast or power on them or that Hell is not fully subdued for them vntill the Resurrection I graunt that the common death heere is called an enemy Cor. 15.26 but he meaneth not such an Enemy as Hell is especially as this is spoken touchinge the godly Yet it is an Enemie even to them not as any Curse at all but as a Memoriall consequent of the old Curse like as a scarie is where was a deadly wound also as a peaceable and quiet stopp or stay vnto them â—â—ea because 〈◊〉 is painâ—ull â—o the flesh in 〈◊〉 his life that their whole persons cannot yet enioy their appointed felicitie Howbeit for all this toward them it hath not the least affinitie with Hell at all Therfore Hades heere in no sort signifyeth Hell but only Death or the power of Death or the world and kingdom of Death or something to that effect onely Yea the very text seemeth thus to expound it selfe saying Where is thy sting O Hades The sting of Death is sinne Where the later seemeth a very direct answer and exposition of the former words Thus The sting of Death or Hades is sinne noting these 2. wordes Hades and Death as Synonimaes for one thing beeing applyed to men Or if “ Pag. 408. you will haue them to differ He may take Hades for the * As it vtterly â—aketh away 〈◊〉 witholdeth â—rom a visible â—â—ate Power strength of Death which the brain-sick Idolators made a God or the Dominion and Kingdome of Death These respectes Hades might well haue with the Apostle which differ from Thanatos Death the meere separation of the Soule from the Body which yet in effect are all one and haue no difference touching our purpose Like as we saw a Pa. 1â— c. 1 before howe all Authours have vsed them Further The Grave of the Wicked is not to be nâ—med nor reckoned Hell properly nor any part thereof In Hell there wanteth not sense of paine If you say it is an entrance to hell and that which holdeth and reserveth the wicked vnto hell Yet then it is not Hell for even thus the Grave and Hell doe greatly differ Finally Hades is b See 〈◊〉 pag. 1â— adversarie to the Resurrection But Hell would not bee adversarie to the Resurrection Therefore Hades heere is not hell no not to the wicked Death in deed and the Dominion of Death is an adversarie to the Resurrection and at that day it shal be vanquished and vtterly abolished when all flesh shall liue againe As for Hell that shall increase theÌ„ and bee advanced when all the wicked both bodyes and Soules shal be subdued vnder it for ever Therfore Hades heere is not hell but the power of Death as hath bene saide or the Dominion of Death or meerely to that effect Also we are to note that the Apostle heere plainly alludeth to that of Hoseah c Hose O Sheol ò kingdom of death or power of ' Death I wil be thy destruction Not o Hell For the Prophet speaketh this to comfort Israel in their captivitie against their continuall Destructions and razings out from this world shewing that now the Lord would stay his iudgement that way Death which had consumed them should now destroy them no more but they should liue and flourish againe This the Apostle might notably allude vnto speaking of the ResurrectioÌ„ As for Hell if the Prophet had meant it as he doeth not the Apostle could make no allusion to it nor haue any thing to deale wch it in this matter of the ResurrectioÌ„ simply So that where you say what reason is there to exclude out of these words Christs victorie over Hell it is very weake What reason is there to include it where the Apostle speaketh only of our resurrection from bodily Death and of nothing els Next we come to the RevelatioÌ„ First a Rev. I have the Keyes of Hades that is of Destruction or of the * The â—â—ble wâ—â—â— the Dâ—â—â— kingdome of death and of Death Or we may take them as 2. words for one and the same thing that is both of them for Death For heere Christ sheweth only that as He was dead so nowe he hath overcome Death hath power to dy no more as I hauâ— b Treaâ— pa 11â— heeretofore noted What shew of reason haue c Pa 17 you then to bringe in heere Christes power over the Damned Soules in Hell Because there is mention â—lswhere of the Key of hell Therefore the Key of hâ—des heer is the same What color of reasoÌ„ is there in this Again a One sitteth on a pale horse whose name was Death Rev. 6.8 Hades Desâ—â—â—on the world of the Dead or the Kingdom of Death followed aâ—ter â—â—m Thâ—â— in no wise can be Hel because the text addeth Power 〈…〉 them to slay with the sword and with samine and death and with wilde beasts Hell slayeth none in that sorte these are not the weapons of Hell but of the Dominion and Power of Death thâ—se and such other mo â—ag 406. are the proper weapons b You take it to bâ— the power of the Divell because the Divell slayeth somâ—times the bodyes of men Which you proue by the bodily slaying and siniting of Iob and his children This indeed is the thing which we holde This is not the Torments of Hell in the place of Damned these be onely bodily harmes and death So that heereby you confirme our purpose for we denie not but God somtime vseth Satan to punish and to slay the bodies of men But seeing this is nothing but Death not Hell which then is inflicted therefore it is bâ—st to take Hades heere most generally as the nature of it is for the Power of Death or the world of the Dead Hell by no meanes it can be â—â—g 398. You tell me in c one place that my best skill is in varying phrases It is better to vary phrases then to vary opinions as you very often doe I vary phrases to expresse Hades which in Authours is not alwayes the same thing or at least not after the same maner Whose generall largenes which it properly hath can not in one word be expressed in English Wherefore my varying of phâ—ases to this purpose I hope is pardonable sith indeed it is necessarie That coÌ„iecture of mine of the 4th part of the worlde 's not going to Hell at once I never esteemed it worth the standing on I he last place is †Death and Hades
burning Love in vs now in this life Which things are farre distant asonder and cannot stand togeather But all thâ—se are so vnlikely that I will leave them to the consideration of the godly wise Then d you come to your next reason about the Sacramentes â—â—g 238. wherein you thinke to touch me First you reprove mee for saying â—â—at 1. 〈◊〉 14. e Sacraments are Earthly elementes they cannot set out the spirituall and invisible effects in Christ. This say you is against the definitioÌ„ of a Sacrament which is Avisible signe of invisible grace I answer first you rather overthrow your self in vrging this against me for your owne main assertion is that neither the Iewish Sacrifices nor Christian Sacraments do signifie any more then the bodily and bloudy death of Christ Then it is your selfe Sir indeed that denyeth the very definition of Sacraments that they are visible signes of invisible graces For I hope the Bodily and bloudy death of Christ and the renting of his flesh with whips nayles and speares were visible and not invisible things As for me I can easily defend my self although you fayle in this For I holde that Sacraments are indeede visible signes of invisible graces wrought in vs by Christ and yet vsually they represent not spirituall and invisible Effects or Acts in Christ himselfe but a Albeiâ—â— conseqâ—â— impâ—â— I denyâ— but alâ— Passion be vnâ—â—stood it only the externall and visible partes of his Passion Can you not reconcile these two Any bâ—ginner in Christianitie will easily do it Next b Pag. 2â— you make me to crosse the Justitution of the Lords Table because c Treat â— pag. 14 I said the Ceremony of breaking the bread cannot properly belong to Christes body But even heere doe not I say expresly that it sheweth foorth how Christes body was broken for vs Which you say is the Institution and this I plainly acknowledge where then is mine errour and what is it Indeed I meane that the breaking of the bread into many pieces doth not set out primarily the breaking of his body but of his soule first and immediatly and then of his Body iointly and consequentlie Againe that it doth not set out properly the pearcing or boring through of Christs body with the spear or nayles nor his lashing with the whip because d 1 Cor. 1â— Klòmenon is broken to pieces properly and e Isa 53â— Meducca in the Prophet is also Broken to pieces properlie or crushed and broken to powder As these f Nom. â— Isa 19. Deut. 2â— Likewise ther worâ— very same â—â—ture 2 Câ—â— 34.7 2 〈◊〉 23.6 15.16.12 Isa 21 and 2 and 41.1 Mic 4. â— Scripture do vse this word likewise and also all Lexicons do confirme Your g Psal 14 Ior. 44. â— Except Ioâ—â— 2. wher the portioÌ„ maâ— kept of that per sense 〈◊〉 breake mâ—â— pieces with words Aâ—â— Psal 34 51.17 allegatioÌ„s therfore about the vse of Dacha otherwise shew not the proper but the vse thereof altered Thus then still I say our former places are not to be meant principallie of Christs Body for it was not properly broken which also my other place sheweth suffficientlie where it is said h Ioh 1â— Not a bone of him was broken Seeing it is manefest that none of his flesh was separated from his bones But of necessitie it must have ben so if his flesh had ben properlie broken into pieces and yet his bones not broken i Pag. 23 You say From a part the whole may and doth properly take denomination First you must shew that some parte of him was properly broken into pieces which hitherto is proved to the contrary That fable which k Pag. 6â— you bring of the Nayles being so great that Constantine of them made him a Bridle and a Helmet will not helpe to prove that his Body was properly broken Neither is cutting or tearing or pearching through which onely indeed the Scripture warranteth that Breaking properly which l Dachâ— that word in the Prophet bâ—fore noted doth properly signifie And I pray is that true that from a part the whole may and doth properly take denomination Doth it properly From a part to the whole is a Figure of speach Is a Figurative speach a proper speach w th you Vainly you charge me I know not how often against my expresse words that I call Hell Heaven and Descending Ascending But heere it is no wrong to charge you with such an absurdity indeed who expresly do make that whiche you say is Figurative to bee a proper denomination I am sure your Grammar was better before you were as you are But to proceede if you aske mee Cor. 11.24 〈◊〉 53 10. whether doe I thinke that a those places of the Apostle and the Prophet doe signifie at all the pearcing of his body I aunswere they may by a generall and vnproper speach as piercing may be an vnproper kind of breaking For seeing the H. Ghost by those wordes intendeth to shew the whole outward violence and destruction of his flesh also and not onely the breaking bruizing of his Soule therefore I deny not but heerein so much may be signified yet in no wise not that alone nor by a proper signification as I have said Nowe where you catch at an advantage in me as you thinke Treat 1. â—â—g 14. in that I said b The Caeremony of breaking the bread or that breaking to pieces in I say cannot belong properly to Christes body but to his soule I grant taking my wordes at the worst and thinking me to be a senseles foole as indeed you do in your whole writing so you may construe them as if I had said The Soule might be properly broken to pieces But other men not inferior to your L. in learning none dispraysed who have read this Treatise have coÌ„ceaved me thus This breaking to pieces cannot be properly said of Christs body nor in any sense proportionable to the property of the c words But his Soule may rather more truly be said to have ben broken and bruized to pieces in such wise as souls may be broken with sorrows extraordinary anguish â—omenon â—educca and so was his Body likewise by sympathy with his Soule Where I deny not but Broken applyed to the Soule is Figurative yet keeping a iust and full proportion with the proper sense of Breaking to pieces which we cannot keepe referring it to his Body So that thus it is neerer and better applyed to the Soule then to the Body of Christ which was only pierced or bored through Then you rehearse another of your reasons tending to the very same effect as that last before â—â—g 240. You will prove d you say that the bloud of our Saviour is the true price of our redemption and that aswel of our Soules as of our Bodyes Still you deale fraudulently for who denyeth this as your wordes runne But wee know you meane