do it from all And for your resistance whether it be such as you speak of or not we leave to the Lord who knoweth the hearts and wayes of all men It sufficeth vs as it did the Apostles and must do the servants of God in all ages that the Reasons of separation include and belong vnto you all even all your Churches Ministers and people in that estate As I haue declared before throughout this Treatise Towching the conclusion Therefore vntill you prove the contrarie which will never be mark what I say the Paradox still remaineth vpon you and your Church Towching the reformed Churches some of * your selves men of far better iudgement and learning then Mr Iacob have confessed and published In the first Admonition to the Parl. that you have all the best reformed Churches throughout Christendome against you And further that you have an Antichristian Hierarchy and Popish ordering of Ministers straunge from the word of God and the vse of all well reformed Churches in the world Yet you like blind Bayard sticke not boldlie to say to the contrarie that all men know they hold communion with you as Churches of God First then reconcile your self Mr Iacob with your fellow Reformists at home And then your Churches Hierarchy and constitution with the Ministerie and constitution of the reformed Churches abroad And remember here that the Ministery of those Churches is not esteemed sufficient by yours As the Priesthood of Rome is The proof of both which you may see in the answer to Mr A.H. Pag. 96. With whether of these then I pray you do you hold communion Or do you not in deed halt as newters between both Mynd further that Mr Beza whose iudgement you know is worthilie reverenced and approved in all the reformed Churches speaking but of fower or five of your corruptions affirmeth that in the Antichristian Church there is nothing more intolerable Bez. Epist. 8. yea that your case being so it is not a corrupcion of Christianitie but in deed a manifest defection from Christ His owne words I noted before Pag. 73. Now when themselves do thus witnes and write of your estate how should anie think that they hold communion with you as the Churches of God vnles you could prove they do also hold it the Church of God which standeth in manifest defection from Christ I know in deed that you have long deceived them by the Apology which you published for your selves against the Papists In which you concealed from them all your corruptions and abominations By meanes whereof not hauing knowledge of the truth of your estate they have therevpon for a tyme thought much better of it then it doth deserve or will beare As even some among them alreadie vpon better information synce have acknowledged But of this matter and of your dealing therein Reason 6 I have written alreadie †in the answer to Mr T. C. And therefore for these things I do still refer you as I did The Answer to Mr Hild. such as it is now is published And so may the answer to Mr Cartw. be in tyme speciallie seing you do thus provoke therevnto In the meane tyme divers copies thereof are abroad in mens hands In which as also in the ‡ other Treatise A â—revisâ—o â—f the Minist of Engl. Pag 67. 68. 69. I have noted in sundrie particulars the testimonie of the reformed Churches against your present estate You Mr Iacob may account of these or anie other our writings as you please Your toungue is no sclaunder Yet till we be answered and that soundlie from the word of God all men of conscience will see and mynd how you bring nothing at all in defence of your Churches and Ministerie but frivolous and wandring words Next followeth our owne acknowledgement to be discussed For towching that bloody mind and speach of yours when you say if we be troubled for witnessing against your Church estate none can pitty our imprisonnement banishement c. I leave you and it vnto God a See the like before Pag. 112. who seeth and will iudge Onelie let the Reader note here “ againe that not the Prelates alone but you also the forward preachers and professors have wittinglie and willinglie your hand in our blood Mr Barrow is the first you name Whom together with Mr Greenwood you †At Tyâ—um by London in the yeare 1593. Apr. 6. killed in time of Parliament that the ages present and to come may know it was done with knowledge of the whole Land In all his speach there is not one word that the members of your Church are true Christians in that estate He testifyed vnto death and sealed with his blood that you do all stand in Antichristian estate I think your self will not be so shameles as to deny it Now in his speach here alledged by your self marke fower things which all do shew it is against you 1. That speaking of the Martyrs false offices and corruptions he deemeth them saved notwithstanding through the mercy of God which superabounded above their sinnes c. By which is evident that he thought them vnder the wrath of God in respect of their false offices corruptions had not the mercy of God superabounded above those their sinnes For mercy you know presupposeth misery and superaboundance thereof a great measure of sinne 2. He intimateth as if he thought that these their sinnes were vnseen of them as doubtles they were of manie of them yea and of all of them as towching that measure of knowledge which God hath synce by his word revealed therein 3. He declareth that he was far from cutting of all among you as Mr Gifford suggested from Gods election or from Christ Where marke that he speaketh of Gods election vnder which we also trust that manie of you are not of your present outward estate In his Disco of the false Church Ref. of Mr Giff. Conferen c In respect whereof here he saith the servants of Christ may iustlie deny you in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church A case very wofull and miserable Yet adde herevnto that which ‡ els where often he testifyed that your Ministery worship estate are Antichristian c. For which cause he could not ioine with you in such estate but separated from you and witnessed this against you vnto death himself so signifying at the very tyme and place of his execution So far was he from iudging you to be in that estate true Christians To make the case yet more plaine know that we dare not condeÌ„ne them of the Church of Rome with any such peremptorie sentence as Mr Giffard accuseth vs to cutt them all from Gods election or from Christ Doth it therefore follow that in the constitution of there Church we iudge them true Christians Nothing lesse Yet thus you shame not to reason 4. He asketh what now should let that we should not have the same hope as of the Martyrs
* Act and Mon. edi◠5. p. 581. ◠He neither denied their popish transubstantion neither spake against the authority of the Church of Rome if it vvere vvell governed nor yet the 7. Sacraments and also sayd Masse himself and almost in all their popish opinions vvas a Papist vvith them Thus hath that book word for word What say you now vnto it What think you of these particulars and of that conclusion that not onely in these but almost in all their opinions He vvas a Papist vvith them Againe in the same book Hierom of Prage another Martyr speaking of Iohn Hus saith ‡ Ibid. pag. 584. b. he never maintained any doctrine against the Church of Rome but onely spake against their naughty life To which purpose may be minded also that the Hussites in Bohemia so called to this day for following Iohn Hus are for trausubstantiation and most of the popish errors and worship as grosse as the Papists themselves And to give an instance of our owne countreymen the same history speaking of Thomas Bilney who was burnt at Norwich hath thus * Ibid. pa. 921. b. As touching the Masse and Sacrament of the Altar as he never varyed frō himself so he never differed therein frō the most grossest Catholicks Mark these words he differed not therein from the most grossest How now will this and your speach agree who blush not to say that the book of Acts and Monuments affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Besides this bold vntruth of yours let the Reader mind how plainely you insinuate that if your Church had the Masse and the Popes supremacy so it were not in the largest and grossest sort you could defend their case aswell then as you do now by bearing the world in hand that these things might stand vvith Christ crucified c. Let the Reader mind and remember it I say no more It remaineth that now I cleare M. Hus and the rest of the Martyrs from your rash censure You judge if any of them held any errors that be fundamentall they are no holy Martyrs but abolished from Christ This I denie And you to proue it should from the Scriptures have showed first what it is to be fundamētall or of the foundation then that whosoever holdeth such error is abolished from Christ But you have done neither I know that here and everie where you give vs your bare word and obtrude vnto vs your owne fancies But your words are no Oracles nor your fācies rules for any to follow Handle these things therefore more soundly in your next And what you speak speak it frō the word of God In the meane time for better clearing of the truth and Martyrs I will show you my mind being ready notwithstanding to heare any that can show better from the word of God And so I pray you take this and all my writings First the word foundation is vsed in the scripture and therefore is of vs to be considered divers waies One is in respect of God and his election Of the foundation and fundamental points or of his Church and people called and sanctified in Christ 2. Tim. 2.19 Psal 87. Pro. 10.25 Another is in respect of the onely ground of all true faith and Churches which is Iesus Christ or of the first principles and speciall heads of Christian religion Mat. 16.15.16.17.18 1 Cor. 3.11 Esa 26.16 1 Pet. 2.6 with Heb. 6.1.2 A third is in respect of the Apostles and Prophets doctrine concerning Christ or of our receiving it and building therevpon Ephes 2.20 Rev. 21.14 1 Cor. 3 10-15 1 Pet. 2.7.8 Luk. 6.48.49 Now which way soever you take it there is no question but the Martyrs although they erred through ignorance of that time in some waightie points of Christs Religion which you call fundamentall yet were notwithstanding holy Martyrs For touching the first of the exceptions aforesaid Gods foundation remained sure and sealed vnto them so as the Lord knew them to be his and they also were sanctified both to witnes vnto death the truth then called in question and to depart from the contrarie iniquitie Touching the second and third they both beleeved in Iesus Christ as it pleased God to reveale him in their age by the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles and they built firmely therevpon not stumbling at the word and disobeying it as is the manner of most now a daies but obeying and holding it forth vnto death So as when the stormes and floods of persecution beat vpon them they were not shaken from the truth they testified but remained constant to the end even when the politick Statutes of Princes the subtill arguments of the learned the earnest perswasion of their friends the great losse of their goods liberty estimation in the world finally the most cruell vsage and tirannie of the Adversaries as it were so many waves and tempests stronglie assailed to drive them a contrarie course Thus were they faithfull to God and loved not their lives vnto death as their Martyrdome proclaimeth to all the world howsoever you could be content it seemeth for any the more advantage to your selves to lay their honour in the dust Secondly in this question we are to discerne betweeen the errors them selves and between the persons that hold them The errours may in their nature be fundamentall as you speak and yet the persons erring therein of ignorance not striving against the light revealed but indevoring to walk faithfully in the truth they see may through Gods mercie in Christ be saved For example some of the Corinthians that denied * 1 Cor. 15.12 the resurrection of the body and some of the Galatians that erred about “ Gal. 4.9.10.21 5.2.3.10 and 6.12.13.15 Circumcision the Law although the errors were in their owne nature fundamentall as you will not deme yet might they that dyed in them before Paules epistles came to those Churches thereabout be saved of God As we * 1 Cor. 11.30.31.32 read that some were dead and chastised of God a-about their abuse of the Sacrament yet not condemned with the world Likewise of Abijah the sonne of Ieroboam that made Israell to sinne the ‡ 1 King 14.1.13 Scripture recordeth that God shewed him mercie because in him was found some goodnes toward the Lord God of Israell Where marke those words some goodnes By which appeareth that although he were as the rest in that generall apostasie of Israell which your self account fundamētal yet having some goodnes in him towards the Lord he found mercie at his hands Furthermore at this day concerning the errors of the Lutherans about cōsubstantiation and the person of Christ of the Anabaptists about Christs humanitie and denying Baptisme to the seed of the faithfull of the Papistes about trāsubstantiation the Popes supremacie c. I suppose that you will graunt both that these errors be fundamentall as touching the nature of the errors thēselves and that yet
the Papists might thus plead as you do And that so much the more as they bring more show of Scripture Pag. 129. then you More show I say as before I noted For otherwise I know both they and you pervert the Scriptures to mainteine your errors I wish it be not to your destruction Consider these things Mr Iacob and returne a sounder aunswer or els learne to lay your hand on your mouth To that which you vrge next concerning my self I have aunswered alreadie Pag. 41. But that which I vrged next to you viz your forsaking the true ministery Pag. 108. worship and order appointed by Christ as the Israelites also did and your retayning a false Ministery vvorship and confusion of Antichrist c. This you passe by and aunswer not a word vnto it Then where I alledged that you vvere not behind but rather exceeded the Israelites in persecuting vnto bands banishment and death such as beare vvitnes to the truth of Christ c. To this you aunswer It is a toy Thus first you make ‡ a mocke of sinne and so carry your self as if you had ben Chapleine to Boner Bancroft Gardiner Whitgift or some such Caiphas Pro. 14.9 By this also you testifie that not onelie the Prelates and Formalists as some would beare vs in hand but even the Reformists among whom you reckon your self have your hands in our blood consenting vnto and approving that which is done against vs. Further you do thus become like the Scribes and Pharisees hypocrites vpoÌ„ whom Christ pronounced a most heavy Wo Mat. 23 29-35 for that whiles they builded the tombes of the Prophets slaine by their Fathers themselves did kill and persecute the witnesses of Christ sent vnto them And yet they blessed themselues in their evill even as you do Behold to what height of impiety you are come and in how fearfull estate you remaine But yet you comfort your selves with two things 1. that this can not make you worse then the Iewes in Christs tyme who for all that they persecuted yet were not wholy fallen from God O most wofull estate Though yet your case be worse then theirs inasmuch as their Church was in a true constitution yours in a false Mat. 21 â—3 c. Act. 2. 13. 17. chap. 19.8.9 And therefore they to be admonished which was done by Christ and his Apostles afore anie were required to separate and save themselves from that froward generation Whereas the rule and commaundement concerning your and all false Churches is forthwith to go out froÌ„ such and to witnes the truth against them Rev. 18.4.5.6 12.17 14.12 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Phil. 1.28.29 Hos 4.15 Amos. 5.5.6 Micah 2.10 And thus far your estate is worse then theirs so as both other account is to be made of it and other maner of walking to be vsed toward it But suppose you were both alike in this yet most miserable is your case when for your persecution you are driven to plead the example of the Iewes 1 Thes 2.15.16 Mat. 23.33.34.35 †who both killed the Lord Iesus and their owne Prophets and did by persecution drive away the Church and Apostles of Christ and brought vpon themselves all the righteous bloodshed vpoÌ„ the earth froÌ„ the beginning of the world and had the kingdome of God taken from them neither could escape the damnation of hell wrath being come vpon them to the vtmost as both Christ and his Apostles testifyed against them How wofull then and miserable is your case though it be no vvorse then theirs 2. The second thing is that you say we suffer more then we need if we would but acknowledge the grace of God with you so far as it is that therefore it is not Christs crosse in that regard but our owne that we beare 1. But what if the Iewes or Papists did or should say thus much vnto them they persecuted Were it of anie moment Nay did not Boner and other of the Papists often so speak to the Martyrs 2. What think you also of the suffrings of Mr Vdall Mr Cartvvright Mr Fenner Mr Dearing Mr Merbury c. Did they suffer more then they needed Or diâ— they not acknowledge the grace of God with you so far as it is Or was it not Christs crosse but their owne that they bare 3. Tell vs next what grace of God is with you which we acknowledge not so far as it is Hold you anie truth of doctrine which we hold not Or reject you anie errors which we reject not Approve you anie way of righteousnes which we approve not Or refuse you anie evill which we refuse not If thus we do not convince vs by the Scripture †2 Tim. 3.16.17 which is profitable to these vses that the man of God may be absolute being fully furnished to everie good work But if we do thus as by the grace of God we do then your speach against vs is vntrue and your persecution of vs vnjust 4. Shew withall in what particulars we suffer more then we need 5. And prove that the things we suffer for are not good but evill Being carefull alwaie that your proofs be from the word of God which onelie is the rule of truth 6. Finallie we testify in all good conscience before God and men that we suffer onelie for bearing witnes to the truth of Christ against the abominations of Antithrist And this the Confession of our faith alreadie published in English Dutch and Latin doth and will testifie to the ages present and to come As also our other writings Examinations Aunswers Conferences c. For which you have alreadie condemned and put to death divers of vs and others you have imprisonned impoverished banished c. It is then Christ his crosse which we beare through his grace And you are become fighters against God and persecuters of Christ in his members Yea even this writing of yours proclaimeth that you are now alreadie become drunken with the blood of the Saints and with the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus Els could you never have pleaded so wickedlie nor blessed your selves so foolishlie as you do But we will leave you and our cause vnto God who judgeth righteous judgement and will give every man according to his works When he maketh inquisitioÌ„ for blood he will remember all that you have done vnto vs and will not forget the complaint of the poore Therefore will wee wayte on him and say no more but with Zechariah when he was put to death ‡ 2 Chron. 24.22 The Lord look vpon it and requier it In the last place you vrge againe that there is contrariety betvveen my speach here and in the second Reason before 1 But I pray you tell me Saith not the Scripture both the things that are spoken in these two places Read we not for the one that Christ accounted the Iewes not the Samaritans the true worshippers of God Ioh 4.22 c.