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A51255 A fuller discovery of the dangerous principles and lying spirit of the people called Quakers made manifest in George Whitehead, John Whitehead and George Fox the younger, in their book against Iohn Horne and Thomas Moore of Lin Regis in Northfolk / written by the said Thomas Moore and Iohn Horne for the fuller satifaction of all such as desire to be further satisfied about the evil and erroniousnesse of the said people called Quakers. Moore, Thomas, Junior.; Horn, John, 1614-1676. 1660 (1660) Wing M2602; ESTC R43465 224,725 192

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would rise and cannot he wants power he would do the will of the Father but cannot it seems till the power reach to him and so he may say too as Paul said To will is present with me but how to perform what I would I find not If the power be the Christ then how was Christ there where he lies burthened with corruption in man and making his grave with the wicked before he was begotten for the power is not begotten in all that Christ is in as a suffering seed and so he suffers before he be begotten and he by whom all things were made is in some men and yet his power not begotten which when it reaches to the seed it rises in it by degrees surely as men in whom he is give way to him 5. Yea here we may see the reigning of their Christ too and of his Saints with him in that they say in some he suffers and in others he reigns and is known to be Prince of Peace Is Christ divided then or doth some part of him in some suffer and other part reign in others it seems he hath neither done dying nor been at any time without his Reigning and his to Reign with him so that here we have the Mystery of their Religion 6. Nay what is this seeds rising but the Redemption of the body with them for as for the Redemption of any Natural body of man from the Natural death on them or judgement on them after that death they plainly deny it onely they talk of a seed shall rise and what is that but this seed that they say Christ takes after the flesh 7. Note here also how this their imagined Christ differs from our Christ the true Christ witnessed to and Preached in the Scriptures for their Rock is not as our Rock their Christ as our Christ themselves being Judges Deut. 32. 31. with their Book pag 10 our Rock is God in Christ and so our Lord Jesus Christ between whom and their Christ consider these differences 1. Our Christ is that Holy and Innocent man that was born of the Virgin Mary and lived in his personal body upon the Earth in the dayes of Augustus and Tiberius Cesars amongst the Jews And who in that body of his was crucified or nayled on a Tree died and was buried and rose again the third day and appeared in the same body to his Disciples after which he in that his body left the World ascending up from the Earth into the highest Heavens where he is Glorified with Gods own Self the fulnesse of the Godhead dwelling in him bodily He being God over all blessed for ever This is he whom these perverters deny and jears at as having the form and body of a Man and set up another thing in his stead that hath neither personal head hands nor feet flesh or bones proper to himself but an imaginary seed within every man desiring to follow after God and be free from sin which they call the Light the Christ the Power of God c. 2. Our Christ in a personal body of his own distinst from and out of our bodies bare our sins to and on the Tree or Crosse and so in that body died for our sins and in the same body rose for our justification that we believing in him might be justified by his Blood and accepted in his Righteousnesse and from thence have sin die in us and we dying to sin might live to Righteousnesse These plead for a Christ without any body of man distinct from others or out of them but a certain seed with an imaginary flesh and blood dying and beating sin in every man and rising where the Power reaches to it in men having no other body but what is in some men dying yea in every man in its time and in some men rising but not in all 3. Our Christ in his said body did once and but once in the last Ages of the World little more then one thousand six hundred years since suffer and die and rise again and can now therein die no more death hath no more dominion over him but he is alive for evermore in that body Glorified in the Heavens which these perverters deny But their Christ is alwayes suffering and so dying in some men and rising in others and reigning in some and so hath been alwayes dying and rising in m●n from the beginning of the World and so will be to the end their words plainly enough import as much 4. Our Christ by that his death once suffered and in his Resurrection in that his body that body once in sacrifice offered up to God hath overcome Death and the Devil slain the enmity and taken out of the way all that was contrary to us redeemed us from the curse of the Law obtained eternal Redemption for us and received the immeasurable fulness of the Spirit in the man and for men and is become Wisdom Righteousnesse Sanctification and Redemption being by virtue of all his foresaid sufferings and sacrifice the propitiation for the sins of the whole World of man kind the Mediator of God and men that all that believe in him may by Faith be reckoned after him and receive of the virtues hereof a first fruits of the Spirit making their Spirits li●e for Righteousnesse sake and giving them the hope of the fulness in Soul and Body at his coming again to be enjoyed by them for which they wait of all which these Perverters make nothing as James Naylor writ to a certain Gentleman by way of reproach Thou lookest to be saved by a man that dyed 1600. years ago this is that they scoff at giving out in their words that the death they mean of is not the death of a man in a Mortal body which was Natural and must have dyed they say though sin had never been But the death they mean is the death of the Seed or Christ that is alwayes dying and rising sometime in one and sometime in another which death and resurrection they extol and account the other but a shadow and figure of 5. Our Christ being in his glorified Bodie in the Heavens the fulnesse of the Godhead dwelling in him bodily by his spirit draws in many to believe in him of whom he in his Personal body is the Head and they the Members are one spiritual body or Corporation But these Perverters denying that their Christ hath any Personal body made but one Body in and of all and that the Seed sure for the Natural Bodies of themselves and others they say must die and never rise again and therefore sure they are in their account no part of Christs Body that must live ever and sure that Seed is no Personal Body but a conceited spirit that is within them with a conceited flesh and blood in them to This is the fulnesse of God they say whereof they are every one of them in this Seed the Members such an Idol was scarce ever in any Generation
this life but which they partake of in this life but where can they shew us any that ever died that either had not sin in him or sin imputed to him They imply p. 6. l. 25 26. By their taxing us with the contrary that Adam might have died the naturall death if he had not sinned and to prove it adde for Christ died who had no sin To which we reply 1. Did Christ die a naturall death was it naturall to Christ to die 2. Had Christ no sin of ours upon him which occasioned his death or should he have died though he had not them laid upon him He bare our sins in his own body on the tree therefore he had sins though none of his own he did no sin neither was guile found in his mouth see there guile and sin distinguished as if all sin is not guile or guile not all sin yet he bare our sins 1 Pet. 2. 22 24. 3. Is this a good inference Christ died that did not sin yet had our sins charged or laid upon him therfore Adam should have died a natural death though he had not sinned let the reader judge they say Christ died to destroy the death that came by sin Rep. 1. If death came by sin as the Apostle testifies in Rom. 5. 12. What death was that if not the naturall death Or where doth the Apostle distinguish and say there is a death of men that came in by sin and the death of men that came not in by sin and that 's the natural death Or where find we mention of Adams dying before and without respect to his sinning in any kind of death 2. Did not Christ by death destroy the naturall death both in taking away its force for taking us out of favour and fellowship with God and in becoming the Resurrection and life from death by whom men shall be raised up out of it at the last day Did he not destroy that kind of death which he died and if that was the naturall death as they say the bodily death we may say then that he also destroyed and so destroying that death that came in by sin it follows that the naturall or bodily death came in by sin too and so that Adam should not have died had he not sinned Do they think that we will worship them and call them the masters of our faith to receive their dictates without proof Let them shew that Adam might have died the natural death or the believers either if they had not sinned They say They who die in the Lord are blessed and to die is gain to them Rep. True but it s by vertue of the Lord in whom they die that turns their curses into blessings death into life Nor is it natural to die in the Lord though to die be It s true too that the righteous mens dying was not charged upon them as a reward for their sin and yet true too that had they never been sinners or sinned in Adam they had never died for as much as by one mans sin death passed upon all as the Apostle witnesses as a reward of Adams sin and theirs in him it first was denounced and though through Christ the weight and destructiveness of it is removed yet the carcass of it remains upon men generally though through Christ turned to the believers gain W. and F. They say God said to Adam in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt die but Adam lost not his naturall life in the day he eat of the tree of knowledge for after that he lived in the body Rep. Herein again they shew their confusion for what though Adam lived in the body after he eat of the tree of knowledge follows it he had not lost his life that day he eat A man my loose or forfeit that which may not presently be taken from him men loose their lives in a Law sense when they do such things as subject them to the Law so as they are thereby condemned to die though death be not presently executed upon them That day he died then in the sentence of the Law though not as to its execution upon him which yet had been then executed too its probable had not Christ the Mediator interposed between him and death to die for him Besides that a thousand years being to the Lord but as one day and he dying in that space he might be said in that sense to have died on the day he sinned They say The covenant Adam was in before his fall was a covenant of life for he was in the image of God and a living soul having the breath of life in him and had dominion in it while he stood in his habitation c. Rep. That Adam was under a covenant of life before the fall is true nor opposes our sayings but their own that Adam might have died the naturall death though he had not sinned But they have weakly proved that it is so for sure the covenant made with him was with him alive and as a creature and not made with him before he was a living man and therefore his being in the image of God a living soul having the breath of life in him and dominion in it as they speak are not to the purpose The covenat might concern their continuance to him not his being made first in them they adde this state have the believers proved and witnessed that life and nature and image that was in man before the fall though they become further in the second Adam who is greater then the first Adam Rep. Still they dictate magisterially where have the believers proved that state of Adam and witness it let them shew it in all the Scriptures for as for their witnessings they are of no Authority with us it s the truth of their witnessings we would have them prove and not onely tell us they are true for we are not of the mind with some simple that believe every of their words to believe that their sayings are as good or better then the sayings of the Prophets and Apostle in the Scriptures have any believers ever witnessed that they were without sin as Adam under no more sentence of death then Adam while in his innocent condition let them shew us that that we may believe it have any believers proved that state of Adam to have life in themselves and not in Christ crucified as Adam had And how are they come further in the second Adam are they led to that and the second Adams state too Where prove they that Into the naturall life of Adam as earthly and fallen full of sin and death such as Adam fallen derived to them they are born and through it are led yea and out and beyond that in Christ in a measure here and fully hereafter but that Christ leads them first into the state of Adam innocent and then into the state of Christ they must prove and not onely dictate before it find credit with
sacrificing or to be slain c. But is already sacrificed for us 1 Cor. 5. 7. With the Scriptures forecited nor could any such outward passeovers shew forth the Lords death as past to be remembred But the observance of it would be a denial of his death as actually sustained past and finished and a signification of it as yet to come therefore although it was very proper for our Saviour to observe and eat it with his Disciples at that time before he suffered Luke 22. 15. Yet he left no such commandment with them that they should any more observe it ye he fully signifies to them that they should no more observe it or have any occasion for it but that the very thing shadowed and Typically held forth in it as to come should now be accomplished and fulfilled in his personal body through sufferings and should be given them to remember and feed upon as so compleated in him whence after the eating of the passeover with them he took Bread and blessed and break and gave to them c. Likewise also the cup after Supper saying c. And having so done and instructed them in the end and use of it He then speaking of that distinctly and not of the passeover appointed them to do this in remembrance of him and so also the Apostle gives us to understand that it was of that and not the former Ordinance but of that observed and instituted after Supper of which he said do this 1 Cor. 11. 23 24. Yea his instituting that imediately after his eating the passeover with them and then appointing them to do that is as much as if he had said Christ your passeover is now presently to be slain and sacrificed for you and therefore you shall have no more use or occasion for this observance the thing typified and shadowed by it being come But instead thereof do you this and teach others this observance in remembrance of what is done at this time for you for now is Christ your Passeover sacrificed my body given and broken my Bloodshed my Life powered out for you Do ye this not that any more but this in remembrance of me 3. But what means this expression in their Query doth it really figure forth As not liking the expressions of the Holy Ghost that tell us we therein shew forth the Lords death they call it a figuring forth his death Now this we find in Scripture that patterns shaddows and resemblances of good things to come were said to be figures of the true and Heavenly things themselves resembled typified or shadowed by them for the time present they were figures while standing of such use which was until the first appearing of Christ to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself was finished So the first man Adam was a figure of him to come Rom. 5. 14. The Ark prepared by Noah and their being saved in it by water A figure answerable unto which Baptisme that of the Spirit now saveth by the Resurrection of Christ 1 Pet. 3. 20 21. And so also the first Tabernacle and holy places made with hands and Ordinances of Divine service appointed therein while standing were figures of the true and Heavenly things themselves that were to come in and by the first appearing of Christ Heb. 9. 1. 9. 11. 23 24. and 10. 1 c. And so the Ordinance of the passeover though that was a commemoration of something over and past as to the actual accomplishment of it yet also as we noted before it was a typical pattern and so a figure of things to come as in the blood-shed and sprinkled and Lamb roasted and eaten Yea even the thing commemorated in that Ordinance as over and past was but a pattern and figure of Christ our Passeover through whose being slain for us Death is abolished destruction kept off the Grace of God bringing Salvation But now since Jesus Christ in whom the whole body of truth is answering to all the former patterns and figures of the Heavenly things the shadows of good things to come Since that he is come in the flesh and hath offered up the perfect sacrifice of his own body once for all and so hath opened the way into the holiest being in that his spotlesse body entered into Heaven it self We find nothing of his appointments or in his Ministry that he hath left standing for us to be exercised in till his coming again that is called a figure or Figures the body being come figures and shadows are fled away they are done away in Christ in respect of such use of them as they were appointed to under the Law And now all his Ordinances shew him forth as already come in the flesh and being made perfect through sufferings and so direct alwayes to him wholly in and by all things in what he hath done and is become as the fountain of all Grace and Truth for instruction and strength in the way and to wait for his coming again But these men putting no difference but rendering the Supper of the Lord as well as the passeover a figure such as never stood or was of any use without it do at least imply that they make no more account of the Ordinances of Christ in his Ministration now then they do of the Types and Figures that were under the Law that are now done away in Christ in whom their truth and end is found If not also that the thing commemorated and shewed forth in that Ordinance of the Supper as already past viz. The Lords death once suffered in that one body is now of no more or other kind of Excellency or use for us and to us than the things commemorated in the outward passeover or not otherwise then as a pattern and figure of some Heavenly or Spiritual thing yet to come or that is acted or to be acted in men in their several ages and times Yea that such are their corrupt immaginations appeares in their former questions in which they signifie that that Blood Sufferings and Death of Christ that is over and past as to the actual accomplishment and sustaining thereof was so finished in that body is not the Bread of Life or the Drink indeed and the purger of the Conscience But something else figured by that which is now in a present and sensible being nigh to men and in them yea all along they shew as may bee seen in what we have noted that the witnesses and declarations of the Power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ both of his first and second personal appearing as delivered by the Apostles are of no more esteem with them than cunningly devised fables that must have some Mystery or meaning in which the truth must be found other then what is held forth in the plain import of the words or at least that they account them as Allegories of some other and further things which they call Christ and the things of Christ after the Spirit while