A Fuller Discovery OF THE Dangerous Principles And lying spirit of the People called Quakers made manifest in George Whitehead John Whitehead and George Fox the younger In their Book against Iohn Horne and Thomas Moore of Lin Regis in NORTHFOLK Written by the said Thomas Moore and Iohn Horne for the fuller satisfaction of all such as desire to be further satisfied about the evil and erroniousnesse of the said People called Quakers Most men will proclame every man his own goodnesse but a faithful man to Christ and his Cause who can find Prov. 20. 6. I marvel yee are so soon removed from him that called you not into your selves but into the grace of Christ unto another Gospel which is not another but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ But though we even Apostles or an Angel from heaven persons of most Angel-like carriage and appearance preach any other Gospel unto you as the following Discourse shews that these Quakers do then that which we the Apostles have preached unto you let him be accursed Gal. 1. 6 7 8. LONDON Printed for John Allein at the signe of the Rising Sun in Pauls Church-yard 1660. THE EPISTLE TO THE READER ONce more we have herein presented thee Courteous Reader with a discovery of the People called Quakers in which thou mayest see from their own written and printed sayings by what manner of spirit they be led and what manner of Doctrine they publish and strive to maintain and indeed the naughtinesse of their way is made manifest partly by their Principles and Doctrines broachedly them and partly by the manner of their carriage in their managing and maintaining them Wee shall give thee here a brief account of both in a few Observations 1 For the Doctrines and Principles maintained by them thou mayest observe in their Queries sent us printed with our Answers to them at the close of our Answer to their Book against us as hintâ—d and in their book more clearly asserted or implyed these following viz. I. That Christ hath no other body but his Church no personal body and so that that body of his flesh in which he suffered and bare our sins and which rose again is not a body or is not in being Book pag. 7 8 9. answered by us in our Reply pag. 25. to pa. 42. and Quest 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 11. II. That the blood of Jesus Christ or his personal abasement sufferings in the flesh to the shedding and pouring out his blood and soul to Death sustained by him once in the end or last Ages of the World are not the foundation or of the foundation of their faith so that their faith is not faith in Christs blood as so considered nor is that precious blood or those sufferings of Christ that wherewith their conscience is purged or the spiritual drink of the soul but some other thing principle or spirit in men which they put the Name of the blood of Christ upon See if this conceit or Doctrine in both parts of it negative and affirmative be not hinted in their Quest 12 13 14. seeing the body of his flesh in which he suffered they deny to remain and yet say his blood is in his flesh what can they mean by his flesh but something of his Church which onely they grant to be his body and so that his blood is nothing but some seed principle or sufferings in his Church their pleading against his blood or suffering as the foundation or of the foundation of Faith thou mayst see in their book p. 14 15 16 17. answered by us here p. 52 53 54 c. III. That the lower parts of the earth into which Christ descended and the heavens into which he again ascended are no local places but some conditions or conceits in men Qu. 3 4 5 6â— Book p. 8 9. answered by us p. 26 27 33. IV. That the same body that dies shall not rise again in the Resurrection Book p. 10 11. Answered by us p. 42 to 46. and Quest 16 17. V. That the souls of the wicked shall not come out Hell at the great day of the Resurrection and judgement to be further judged they imply Quest 18. and so that neither the souls nor the bodies of the wicked shall rise again to judgement VI. That that coming of Christ in which the dead in him shall be raised and be caught up into the Ayr together to meet him and be ever with him and in which he shall descend from heaven with a short and the sound of the trumpet c. mentioned 1 Thess 4. 15 16. is already long since past For they say the Apostles and Believers of that Age in which the Apostle wrote remained to it Book p. â— Answered p. 32. Quest 15. and so they agree with Hymeneus and Philetus that said the Resurrection is already past 2 Tim. 16. to 18. VII That the Christ we look for to come from heaven again they desire not the knowledge of Book p. 10. Answered p. 41. VIII That they are sinless or have no sin in them they deny not and that those that are believers in Christ and born of God are perfectly freed from sin as to the being of it in them Book p. 1 to 6. and yet that the little children that John wrote to who were also born of God and know the Father might have sin in them Ans p. 9 10. to p. 24. IX That all sin is guide when as the scripture distinguishes guile from other sins and other sins from guile 1 Pet. 2. â— and sayes some have no guile in their spirits who yet have sins though forgiven and covered yet there to be covered Psalm 32. 1. 2. Book p. 4. 5. Answ p. 17 18. X. That Adam might have died the natural death if he had not sinned and so that the bodily or natural death came not in by sin Book p. 6 7. Ans p. 23. XI That Christ came not to redeem men from out of the natural or bodily death B. p. 7. Ans p. 25. XII That our faith that is not grounded in Christs appearing in us is to be turned up by the roots and so by consequence that all the faith that is grounded in Christs appearing and suffering for us without us and in his appearing in heaven for us and so such faith as that of the Elect mentioned Rom. 8. 33 34 35. is by these mens Doctrines to be rooted up Book p. 10. Ans p. 41 42. XIII That the Apostles and all that were led by the spirit of God c. witnessed the Redemption of the body spoken of Rom. 8. 23. when they were upon the earth and did not put it afar off as they deridingly phrase the looking and waiting for it till after death in which they say again in effect that the resurrection of the believers body is made in this life Book p 11 12. Ans p. 47 48 XIV That the knowledge
Epistle to the Reader as ours in which they shew their ignorance and deceit they be thus T. Moor say they affirmed That sin is a natural heritage in the beleevers while they be here To which T. Moor saith Ans This is falsly expressed his sayings were That sin is in the beleever as a natural heritage from Adam while he is in this mortal body And in noting this as erroneous they intimately deny the natural uncleanness of man by sin entring into the world by one mans sin and so that all have sinned in him and are fallen short of the glory of God in and unto which they were created Or else with the Papists imagine that its taken away by Baptism or Regeneration so as no more to be in men here But note that T. M. says its in them as a natural heritage from the first natural root fallen Adam in which is implied a distinction between what is the beleevers by nature as a son of the first Adam a man and what is his by grace as in Christ the second Adam and the Apostle tells us That by one man sin entred into the world and death by sin and that it abides in the beleever after beleeving is plain in that Paul says sin dwelt in him even then when he says it was not he that did sin but sin in him Rom. 7. 17 20. For I know that in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing there his natural heritage In which also he implies that in his Spirit was that that is good dwelling as also he after says vers 22. and that sin abides not in the beleever till death we find no Scripture saith but the contrary That no man living shall be justified in the sight of God if he enter into judgement with him Psal 143. 2. If no man living but by Gods not entring into judgment with him then no man living here is without sin for if there were though God did enter into judgement with him he should be justified for God certainly cannot in judgment or will not condemn him in whom is no sin so that their ignorance and error herein appears in accusing T. M. of Error herein 2. T. M. say they affirmed that their nature is restored in Christ speaking of their own nature and that their nature is a filthy nature and Christ took upon him their nature Ans This also is falsly expressed and perverted for his sayings were to this effect That the nature or kind of man is perfectly redeemed and restored in one for all even in Christ the second Adam while yet sin is in and death upon the Individuals or particular persons of men for whom such Redemption is obtained in and by Jesus Christ Yea even the beleevers body is yet vile while not changed by death and they all waiting for the redemption of the body but here they confound things together and deal deceitfully they might as well have taxed the Apostle of confusion for saying men by nature do the things contained in the Law Rom. 2. 14. and yet by nature are children of wrath Eph. 2. 3. The word Nature signifies diversly when we say our nature is restored in Christ we speak of the nature or kind of man as it is distinguished from the nature or kind of Angels and other creatures which whole nature by reason of sin committed by it in Adam was fallen under wrath and curse but being assumed by Christ who was made flesh and man and not in the nature or kind of Angels he hath redeemed it even mans nature or being which is ours too inasmuch as we are men and restored it to favour and fellowship with God in himself and yet we say our nature kind or being as in us not in Christ for the same common nature kind or being of man is in every man though in divers persons diversly is corrupt and filthy in it self by reason of sin in it Isai 64. 6. and death upon us further then purified and purged by him yet Christ took upon him our nature as before not as it is filthy in us by sin in it but as it was under bondage to death and ourse without filth in him he being sanctified in his conception so as to be the Holy One even in his Birth Luke 1. 35. whereas others are conceived in sin and shapen in iniquity Psal 51. 5. so that there is neither error nor confusion in what is said by T. M. hereabout but they have mis-related his sayings and therefore tax them because they agree not with their Errors concerning mans natural sinfulness called Original sin and the humanity of Christ denied by them 3. John Horn they say holds that they that had no guile in them had sin in them that every sin is not guile Answ T is well they dared not to put in David with him as holding the same error for he says that man is blessed whose sins are covered and to whom the Lord will not impute sin and in whose spirit there is no guile so then it seems some men in whose spirit is no guile have sins in them though covered and not imputed to them there needs no cover for what is not yet John Horn did not say that every one that had no guile in him had sin in him for he excepts Jesus Christ who neither did sin nor had guile in him not that Principle then but the contradiction of it is the Error 4. T. M. say they affirmed That the blood of Christ shed is not in his person in heaven but the vertue of it To which T. M. saith Ans That herein also they have altered and falsified his sayings which in Answer to their Question where the blood of Christ is was to this effect That the material blood was shed and the vertue or preciousness thereof or of his bloodshedding is now with the Father in the person of Christ in Heaven forasmuch as by means and for the worth thereof he is raised from the dead and entred into heaven it self there to appear in the presence of God for us having by it obtained life from the dead even eternal life and redemption for us Mind also Reader that they say p. 15. that they blame us not nor did blame us for not asserting that the bloodshed is in the body of Christ Why then note they this as a dangerous principle had T. M. so said 5. T. M. say they affirmed That the blood of Christ shed is the foundation of their faith but where it is they answered not nor could they tell Ans The forementioned Answer to their Question was first often given and urged else what meant their reply to it to this effect That the vertue of a thing cannot be separated from the thing it self that it may be where the thing it self is not in a present reall sensible existence or being the contrary to which was then proved as is shewed in the Book they pretend to answer And further T.
idols will I cleanse you And as God promised to do so doth and will he do the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin and yet it follows If we say we have no sin we deceive our selves and he is the propitiation for our sins 1 John 1. 7 8. and 2. 2. As was before noted he that forgives and cleanseth us by way of pardon from all sins bids us also pray as duly as for our daily bread forgive us our trespasses c. 3. As for exhortations to be perfect they prove not the being of the thing exhorted to They supposed above the little children to whom the Apostle wrote that they might not sin might have sin in them not withstanding Nor is all perfectiom perfection of sinlesness in mens selves Asa was perfect hearted all his daies and yet had sin and sinned 2 Chron. 15. 17. and 16. 9. And yet every one that is perfect shall be as his Lord he saies not he is so yea in saying he shall be he implies he is not yet so but when he shall appear we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is This we granted but they skipt it over 4. The Apostle said they were circumcised with the circumcisiou made without hands in the putting off the body of sins of the flesh but it was in Christ he saies for so much the words in whom signifies And the same Apostle in the same Epist Col. 1. 10. 11 to the same people therefore he saith but now you also Mark now also put off all these anger wrath malice blasphemy filthy communication c. Col 3. 8 9. it seems then they had those things yet to put off still for can any put off what is not So to the Ephesians too when he had said they had learned to put off the old man and put on the new he addes wherefore putting away lying speak every man truth to his brother a lesson these men have not yet learned To the Corimbians also he saith purge out the old leaven that ye may be a new lump even as ye are unleavened so that in some sense in Christ they were unleavened and yet in other sense needed to purge out the old leaven which implies it was yet in them for how can a man purge that out of him that is not in him but they through ignorance confound these things and run themselves and Auditors into delusion Again p. 5. l. 36. They distinguish the true Prophets Christ and his Apostles from themselves that are accused by us and so again imply that they be neither the true Christ nor his true Prophets or Apostles Reader mind it they give out themselves for Prophets and Apostles and some of them say they are Christ but they are false ones and why then plead they for their false prophecyings and witnessings But they indeed shew their confusion and rayling against us as after will appear to their own delection and shame as for their innocence no liers are innocent but they be over and over proved liers that perfect heartedness and compleateness in Christ may consist with sin being in men in this life we have shewed And they cannot disprove unloss they will blot out Col. 2. 10. with Chap. 3. 8. 2 Chron. 15. 17. so 1 Cor. 5. 8. 9. Which we noted above either let them say those Scripture sayings are false or else own their own words to be false in saying that we fight against our own words and that they that are compleate in Christ are perfectly freed from sin namely as to all inherency of it in themselves or they say nothing to purpose that sinners are out of the compleatness of Christ which though in some sense true viz. Of sinners out of Christ yet is not universally true except Paul when he said of sinners I am the chief was out of Christs compleatness that the heart that hath sin dwelling in it is not perfect contrary to 2 Chron. 15. 17. with 16 17. Where Isaiahs heart is said to have been perfect all his daies and yet he is charged with relying on the King of Asyria and not relying on the Lord his God and those were heart-sins surely and they dwell there too for some time as the verses before manifest p. 6. They accuse us of confusion that we say believers are come to a further state and covenant then Adam was in before his fall who then had no sin in him and yet accuse the believers they say with having the body of sin or not being perfect while here Rep. Here they shew their own confusion for the believers being in a better state or convenant in Christ hinders not their having sin yet in themselves to purge out as is evident in Col. 2. 10 11. with 3. 5. 8 9. No more then it hinders them from having infirmides and death which Adam unfallen had not besides they have added a lie or two as that we accuse the believers with having a body of sin then Paul accused them when he said the believers old man is crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be destroyed the words might be plainly imply it a thing not then done but to be done as in all like expressions is evident and that we accuse them with not being perfect when in divers respects we grant them to be perfect as perfect in Christ Jesus and many of them perfect with Christ in their Spirits without guile there and perfect comparatively to some others c. In the same page they wrong us in giving it as our saying that Adam might possibly sin and die but not so the believers whereas we added what they suppress to not so the believer not under a covenant of works here nor hereafter the resurrection capable of sinning and dying as Adam before his fall was again they say we would accuse the Quakers of being sinners because of their dying which is false let any man read our book p 3. What we said is thus that the Quakers are not in Adams state before the fall because Adam had no death then upon him as the Quakers have for they must die but they say here our darkness appears for believers dying the natural death doth not prove them sinners while here for through death they gain more of the peace and glory of God which they partake of in their life time which is both confused and inconcludent for what if the believer gain by his death may it not therefore argue he had sin in him while he lived is not the being freed from the body of death and inherency and combating with sin again think they Though we did not bring it for an argument to prove what they charge us with as we before discovered and for their confusion their words sound as if they believed that the greater gain by their death they have it all in this live for they say not more of the peace and glory of God then they partake of in
this life but which they partake of in this life but where can they shew us any that ever died that either had not sin in him or sin imputed to him They imply p. 6. l. 25 26. By their taxing us with the contrary that Adam might have died the naturall death if he had not sinned and to prove it adde for Christ died who had no sin To which we reply 1. Did Christ die a naturall death was it naturall to Christ to die 2. Had Christ no sin of ours upon him which occasioned his death or should he have died though he had not them laid upon him He bare our sins in his own body on the tree therefore he had sins though none of his own he did no sin neither was guile found in his mouth see there guile and sin distinguished as if all sin is not guile or guile not all sin yet he bare our sins 1 Pet. 2. 22 24. 3. Is this a good inference Christ died that did not sin yet had our sins charged or laid upon him therfore Adam should have died a natural death though he had not sinned let the reader judge they say Christ died to destroy the death that came by sin Rep. 1. If death came by sin as the Apostle testifies in Rom. 5. 12. What death was that if not the naturall death Or where doth the Apostle distinguish and say there is a death of men that came in by sin and the death of men that came not in by sin and that 's the natural death Or where find we mention of Adams dying before and without respect to his sinning in any kind of death 2. Did not Christ by death destroy the naturall death both in taking away its force for taking us out of favour and fellowship with God and in becoming the Resurrection and life from death by whom men shall be raised up out of it at the last day Did he not destroy that kind of death which he died and if that was the naturall death as they say the bodily death we may say then that he also destroyed and so destroying that death that came in by sin it follows that the naturall or bodily death came in by sin too and so that Adam should not have died had he not sinned Do they think that we will worship them and call them the masters of our faith to receive their dictates without proof Let them shew that Adam might have died the natural death or the believers either if they had not sinned They say They who die in the Lord are blessed and to die is gain to them Rep. True but it s by vertue of the Lord in whom they die that turns their curses into blessings death into life Nor is it natural to die in the Lord though to die be It s true too that the righteous mens dying was not charged upon them as a reward for their sin and yet true too that had they never been sinners or sinned in Adam they had never died for as much as by one mans sin death passed upon all as the Apostle witnesses as a reward of Adams sin and theirs in him it first was denounced and though through Christ the weight and destructiveness of it is removed yet the carcass of it remains upon men generally though through Christ turned to the believers gain W. and F. They say God said to Adam in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt die but Adam lost not his naturall life in the day he eat of the tree of knowledge for after that he lived in the body Rep. Herein again they shew their confusion for what though Adam lived in the body after he eat of the tree of knowledge follows it he had not lost his life that day he eat A man my loose or forfeit that which may not presently be taken from him men loose their lives in a Law sense when they do such things as subject them to the Law so as they are thereby condemned to die though death be not presently executed upon them That day he died then in the sentence of the Law though not as to its execution upon him which yet had been then executed too its probable had not Christ the Mediator interposed between him and death to die for him Besides that a thousand years being to the Lord but as one day and he dying in that space he might be said in that sense to have died on the day he sinned They say The covenant Adam was in before his fall was a covenant of life for he was in the image of God and a living soul having the breath of life in him and had dominion in it while he stood in his habitation c. Rep. That Adam was under a covenant of life before the fall is true nor opposes our sayings but their own that Adam might have died the naturall death though he had not sinned But they have weakly proved that it is so for sure the covenant made with him was with him alive and as a creature and not made with him before he was a living man and therefore his being in the image of God a living soul having the breath of life in him and dominion in it as they speak are not to the purpose The covenat might concern their continuance to him not his being made first in them they adde this state have the believers proved and witnessed that life and nature and image that was in man before the fall though they become further in the second Adam who is greater then the first Adam Rep. Still they dictate magisterially where have the believers proved that state of Adam and witness it let them shew it in all the Scriptures for as for their witnessings they are of no Authority with us it s the truth of their witnessings we would have them prove and not onely tell us they are true for we are not of the mind with some simple that believe every of their words to believe that their sayings are as good or better then the sayings of the Prophets and Apostle in the Scriptures have any believers ever witnessed that they were without sin as Adam under no more sentence of death then Adam while in his innocent condition let them shew us that that we may believe it have any believers proved that state of Adam to have life in themselves and not in Christ crucified as Adam had And how are they come further in the second Adam are they led to that and the second Adams state too Where prove they that Into the naturall life of Adam as earthly and fallen full of sin and death such as Adam fallen derived to them they are born and through it are led yea and out and beyond that in Christ in a measure here and fully hereafter but that Christ leads them first into the state of Adam innocent and then into the state of Christ they must prove and not onely dictate before it find credit with
us or with any that know and believe the Scriptures but they imply That if Adam was under a covenant of works do this and live then he should not have lived when he was in innocency till he had done some thing to merit life Rep. The mistake of this is shewed above in that that covenant was not for the first giving but for the continuance of his life in the favour of God and that though he could not merit by any works and obedience was to be continued upon his working that that was good sinlesly otherwise he was to die as appeared in that he lost it by his sinning and fell under death from which that covenant afforded no Redemption as the covenant in Christ doth so that we have not spoken ignorantly as they charge us but the ignorance is found with them that confound what covenant Adam was under with what was given to the people of Israel for convincement of their sin when fallen The covenant of works or Law as given to fallen man in the hand of a Mediator entred because of transgression till the seed came and so was given with subordination to the covenant of grace even the grace of God in the Redeemer from the fall and the death that came by sin as the naturall death also did though they erroneously imply the contrary and no marvaile for if that death be by sin then there must be a Redemption out of that death and so a Resurrection of the body from it which seeing they deny how can they grant it comes in by sin and that the seed should Redeem the creature out of it So that herein also their iniquity and corrupt judgement is seen and the root of their deniall that the naturall death came in by sin namely their deniall of the Redemption by Christ from that death and so the Resurrection of the body from it as after will more appear so that here Reader we have a complication of errours in them Thus much to their defence of their first errour about their sinlesness let us see how they defend their second Our second charge of them was about the personall body of Christ in which he suffered which that it is ascended into Heaven the Heavens without all men and above the clouds opposed to the visible earth we say they would not be brought to acknowledge touching which whether we questioned severall times altering our words as they charge us let them judge that read our book But they say W. and F. We contradict our selves because we say that they said the same body that suffered was glorified at Gods right hand in heaven Rep. Nay not unless by that body and that Heaven we say they meant as we expressed in our question which we said they did not and they in their book clearly manifest the truth of what we therein said so that it 's but another falshood added to the former to say that we are stifled in our own confusion and another yet to say that we charge them ignorantly with what they meant for here they plainly say W. and F. It appears we hold Christ hath two bodies in telling of a mysticall body and not receiving that as in answer that his body is the Church the fulness of him that filleth all in all and in that from our words they say we would have Christ to have a body besides or distinct from the fulness of God when as the Scripture doth not say that Christ hath two bodies or that his body is a body of flesh and bones without the blood in it as they say we told them Rep. See here Reader did we ignorantly charge them that by the body they said was glorified in Heaven they meant his Church do not they here speak it out while they tax us with holding Christ hath two bodies because we say he hath his personall body in which he suffered and which he shewed to have flesh and bones in it as a Spirit hath not And is it more absurd for Christ to have in two senses a body or two bodies in different senses of the word body then for the believer to have two heads in two distinct senses hath not George Whitehead and the rest each of them their personall head in which they have tongues with which they smite them that are more righteous then themselves And if they were believers in truth should they not have Christ for their head too And why then may not Christ have a body of his own as a man the man Christ Jesus in which he shewed his Disciples flesh and bones and yet have a body mysticall or body signifying a Church society or congregation as he is the Ruler and Governour of them and in them by his Spirit And doth not the Scripture set forth both these to us as distinct bodies though those very words two bodies it hath not was it his body the Church in which he shewed his Disciples his flesh and bones hands and feet that were pierced with Nailes and in which he bare our sins on the tree And was it his personal body for which Paul filled up the remainder of the sufferings Col. 1. 24. Is there not expresly the body of his flesh mentioned Col. 1. 22. In which he reconciled us to God his now glorious body in the Heavens to which the body of his Church is to be fashioned into the likeness of it Phil. 3. 20. 21. And the body his Church Col. 1. 24. See here how these men broadly deny Christ as man and onely make him a Spirit filling the Church and so the Spirit and the Church to be Christ and is not that all the Christ they confess now to be And whereas they say we would have Christ to have a body besides and distinct from the fulness of God Col. 2. 9. We say we acknowledge a body in which dwells the fulness of the Godhead which we say is distinct from the fulness of the Godhead that dwells in it and is distinct too from the Church the fulness it is not said of God as God but of him that filleth all in all that is of Christ as Mediator in the power of God Ephes 4. 9 10. Yet that his body is a body of flesh and bones in Heaven without blood in it we determined not but that that body of flesh and bones or in which he shewed his Disciples flesh and bones is ascâ—nded up into Heaven and he as in it is glorified against which they reason thâ—â— W. and F. It 's not proper to say a body of flesh and bones is in the Heavens as if it were in many places at once for Heavens are more then one a silly reason for by that reason it 's not proper to say a body of flesh and bones is in the waters or a stone sinks in the waters for waters are more then one Heaven and Heavens are indifferently used in the Singular or Plurall number as water and waters be as we
baffled them as there it appears had the Book out of which it is quoted If it be not so as he sets it down let the fault lie at his door For J. H. never see the Book though he sent for it that he might have seen it he might be too rash in taking it upon trust not fathering it upon him whence he had it in that he confesses himself faulty and craves forgivenesse yet it appears that they were not herein led by an infallible Spirit for then they would have known J. H. was guilty only of overcredulousnesse not of impudent lying he would be loath wilfully to bely the Devil much lesse any man though his instruments VVhat follows in p. 21 22. sufficiently speaks out their deceitful way to the intimate denying of Christ come in the flesh as the Apostles preached him to them that can understand truth from deceit VVhile they justified James Naylors deceitfull and erroneous sayings alleadged by us out of his Book called Love to the lost never taking notice of or giving any answer to what was said in our Book to confute them Reader I pray minde it James Naylor in the Book aforesaid as I Jo. Horn testifie by my own sight of it treating of Redemption says few know the subject of it the seed to which the promise viz. of Redemption is made but sayes it is a certain seed or principle in men groaning for liberty from sin c. Now here G. W. and the rest say that seed of God is Christ and wherever he is known in such a low measure as a seed that suffers and is burthened in man by corruption there he desires to be free from the burthen of sin and alwayes to do his Fathers will Now mind what the Apostles say they say Christ is the Redeemer and Redemption but never that he himselfe is the thing to be redeemed as these say he is the Redeemer saith Isaiah shall come to Zion Isa 59. 20. And Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law being made a curse for us c. saith Paul but they never say Christ himself is to be redeemed or that he is burthened in men by corruption and it hath power over him to binder him from doing his Fathers will alwayes as he desires to do And so makes him a sinner contrary to 1 John 3. 5. but on the contrary Death hath no more dominion over him and so by consequence not sin for if it had Death would it being the wages of sin Well but see yet further their corrupt mystical stuffâ— the mystery of Iniquity that is in them They say And this seed the power reaches to where it is begotten and in the power it arises in them that believe in the Light for their Redemption Reply Was there ever such confused stuffe heard of One while it is the seed which is Christ that is burthened in man by corruption that is to be redeemed and another while its the believer in the Light for the Redemption so that both Christ and the believer are to be Redeemed But who must redeem the Seed which is Christ That 's but darkly and confusedly hinted Babel like The power sure that reaches to the seed but what is that Is it Christ Then Christ redeems Christ is it the Spirit Then the Spirit redeems Christ where he is begotten So that here is Christ begotten and Christ suffering and burthened with sin to be redeemed by the Power or Spirit and all in them that believe in the light for Redemption but what is that light they believe in Sure that must be Christ too unlesse it be somthing from him lesse then Christ but how should a Believer believe in a Christ for redemption that wants it himselfe and is the subject of it The Apostles preached a raised Christ for men to believe in These men a suffering and burthened Christ that wants Redemption himselfe And is not here too Christ and corruption both in the believer are they both Natural or both Spiritual heritages think we But in them that believe in the Light it rises say they in the Power c. and this is Christs dying in men for their sins and rising in them for their justification that believe in him that 's dying and rising in them for redemption in their Language rare Mysteries of confusion confounding the Spirit of man with Christ and putting it for him The Apostles preacht Christ dead and raised for all never that he is yet dying and rising for and in some But They say The Apostle travelled again for the Galathians till Christ was formed in them who first is known as one without form or comlinesse Reply That the Apostle traviled again in birth of the Galathians till Christ was formed in them is true But even as the Galathians were not personally and carnally in Paul though he traveled again in birth of them but onely in his love and affection So neither are we so carnally and fantastically to conceive of Christs forming in them as if he was a seed or principle to be begotten and redeemed in them and suffering and burthened in them and to be brought forth into form in them personally but onely the knowledge and faith of him was to be brought forth or formed in their hearts 2. Nor is it true but very false that Christ is first known as one without form or comlinesse but rather while he is so apprehended he is not known its mens ignorance unbelief and wrong thoughts of him makes them see no beauty in him Isaiah speaking of the Jews and in their person as one of that body and prophecying of the mean appearance of Christ in the flesh signifies how he should through Ignorance and unbelief be rejected by them and they should see no form or comelinesse in him wherefore they should desire him as the verses following also shew not that any knowing him first know him so They proceed thus And so the seed of God suffers in some and in others it reigns and is known to be Prince of Peace Reply Here is their sence of Christs death and Resurrection Christs dying and rising in men and this is the word that they say is in every man before outward Preaching The word of Faith nigh in the heart and in the mouth but what need Preachers be sent then to preach this or who be the Preachers sent of God in men to declare it without whose being sent of God they could not Preach it and without whose preaching men could not hear and believe Yea in this Mysterious and Babylonish stuffe here is Christ forming suffering and rising at once Suffering in some and rising in others and so the Apostles doctrine is turned up by the roots as not grounded in Christs appearing in men Where he says Nor yet that he Christ should offer himself often as the High Priest entereth into the holy Place every year with blood of others for then must he often have suffered since
signifies Christ as come in the flesh and so takes in that body of his flesh upon the taking whereof that Name was given him as is before noted yea he whom God hath raised from the dead and made both Lord and Christ and so a quickening spirit is said to be Christ of the Seed of David after the flesh Rom. 1. 3 4 with Acts 2. 30. 36. the same that dyed and was buried 1 Cor. 15 3. 4 45. The last Adam as also before is hinted in not confessing which they privily deny what they pretend to grant and their seeming grant is like John VVhiteheads concerning the Resurrection of Christ who at our meeting with him at Gedney pretended to believe that the same Christ that took flesh in a body prepared for him of the Seed of Abraham and David and in that body served and suffered for at a time that the same Christ was raised and glorified with the Fathers own self And yet then would by no means acknowledge though oft intreated and urged to speak plainly to the Question that he was raised and did live again and continue for ever in the same body in which he so served and suffered or that the same body that then once in the last ages suffered and was hung on the Tree was raised again from the dead and is now alive for evermore yea at last he deneyed that the same dead bodies of men that dye in Adam shall be raised and made alive again from the dead that even the same that sleep in the dust of the earth shall come forth of their Graves by Christ and so consequently that Christ is raised for if the dead rise not then is not Christ raised for Jesus Christ was dead and buried as before we have shewed So then their immagination or meaning in this equivocal grant appears to be this That the same Christ that had a body distinct from all other in which in the dayes of his flesh he suffered is now raised ascended and gone out of that body of his flesh into some imaginary spiritual being which in that body of his flesh he could not be made yet that in that his spiritual being he is in the bodies or bodies and souls of divers persons working doing or suffering the same things in them which were typically or as a Pattern suffered and done in that body of his flesh and so they neither confess him already come in the flesh or as having finished that his coming in the flesh or first appearing to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself and so the works the Father gave him to do on the earth in that his once suffering for sin nor do they confesse yea they deny Jesus to be the very Christ who is made a quickening spirit and therefore we have laid down our answer plainly and distinctly that it s not onely the same that had a body and therein once suffered but also that it s he in the same body of his flesh in which he once suffered for sins even the same Jesus whom they crucified slew and hung on a Tree that God hath made the Lord and Christ and so a quickening spirit and have explained and confirmed our answer in the expressions of the Scripture quoted by them that its the last Adam c. of which they take no notice for that fully shews the fulnesse and ungodlinesse of their immagination which therefore we again desire the Reader to mind viz. that that Scripture 1 Cor. 15. 45. speaks of two Adams the first Adam the last Adam so then they were both men and had each the personal body of a man when those things there spoken of were verified in them yea so expresly called vers 47. the first man the second man It was the first man Adam that was made a living Soul and so it is the last Adam the second man that was made a quickening spirit The Lord formed the body of the first Adam of the dust of the earth and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life Gen. 2. 7. and man became a living Soul the breath of Life did not annihilate the body formed of the dust but enlive and quicken it by possessing it and defusing it self in and through all the parts and members of it so that that breath of Life and the body of the man united the man became a Living Soul it is not said it or the breath of life became so but the man upon Gods breathing in that breath of life he even the first man Adam became a living Soul And had he abode in that uprightnesse and innocency in which he was made he might have lived for ever but as there was then none dead for him to quicken so neither was he fitted for such a work so that when he this first man Adam not keeping his first estate but seeking out inventions sinned and fell from God under the Sentence of and into a state of death and Separation from God and so death passed upon all men and they are all partakers of flesh and blood forasmuch as all have sinned in that offence of one they must all have been shut out and perished for ever in that losse and misery if God had not found out and prepared a second man Adam and made him a quickening Spirit for as by man came death so by man also the abolishing of and resurrection from the dead such was mans condition by reason of sin entered and overspreading the nature and death already passed on him in the Sentence of God that without another man a second Adam in whom Gods Truth might be fulfilled and his Justice satisfied in the punishment of sin death of the sinner and through whose Sufferings by his overcoming death the Righteousnesse of God might appear and shine forth therein we could not have been quickened or made alive Therefore for the recovery of fallen man that he might not be utterly expelled or shut out in the first death and banishment but such Redemption wrought and obtained for him that through the Redeemer he might be saved and that they might be all in due time made alive or raised from the first death to appear before the judgement Seat of their Redeemer therefore God found out and prepared a second Adam and made him a quickening spirit Now this second Adam was even his onely begotten Son the Word that was in the beginning with God and so before the first Adam and he by whom and for whom the first Adam and all things were made that were made the proper Lord and Heir of all things for he onely was able and meet to undertake such a work and to have help laid upon him for us but he was made flesh of a woman and so made man the second Adam in the fulnesse of time once in the end of the World and that by a wonderful work of new Creation by the Grace Gift and Appointment of the Father and by the Operation
to prove that Adam might have died the natural death though he had not sinned they argue as thus Because Christ who had no sin not considering that Christ had our sins laid upon him and for them he died but Adam should have had no sin laid upon him or imputed to him had he not sinned himself But such like reasonings are too many to number up in them 4. They carry on their false designs and doctrines with lies and falshood most frequently as in saying often that we accuse the Saints and plead for sin p. 2 3 4 5. And in belying J. H. in saying that he turned G. Ws. words about his false Syllogisme above mentioned when as all that were at the dispute and heard and remembred his words may remember they were word for word as John Horn relates them Yea and in belying his own words in saying they were such as they indeed were not Again in saying we might as well have accused the true Prophets and Apostles with being Preachers of lies and deceivers as the Quakers and that the same Spirit in us that hath accused the Quakers with being deceivers that is the Spirit of Truth would have accused the true Prophets Christ and his Apostles for being deceivers page 5. That we contradict our selves in many things where we have made it we have made it evident there is no contradiction That we look for a Christ like our selves but that he hath no Blood in his Body as we imagine p. 10. That our expecting the Redemption of the Body to be waited for aster Death is contrary to the Saints expectations p. 11. and 12. In which words is both equivocation and falshood that what the Scriptures say of Christ and his Body they own in which they also either equivocate or say falsly or both they equivocate if by owning they mean as probably they do they own it as true of themselves the Quakers as if the things spoken of Christ and his Church are verified in and of them and may be affirmed of them Or if by owning they mean they believe and hold them true concerning Jesus of Nazareth and them that believe on him to be saved through the virtue of his sufferings Sacrifice and Mediation then they say falsly Yea whether this or the former be their meaning they are false therein as our reply makes manifest to the impartial Reader But who can number up their lies and falshoods in falsifying our sayings and otherwise which the following Reply will further evidence He that will procure and search and compare what Christopher Wade of Water-beach hath written against them with their writings against him may see a whole dozen of notorious lies of George Foxes clearly proved against him to which G. W. in his answer gives the go by most egregiously and in none of them disproves him 5. They misrelate and give the go-by to many of our charges and sayings as for instance We quoted Jam. 3. 2. to prove all believers here to have sin or sometime to offend to this they say nothing onely quote the place and give it the go-by telling us onely that James exhorted men to let patience have its perfect work c. Which is nothing to the purpose p. 3. So what we said of the Nature of man as it is in Christ discharged of sin Law and Death in his Resurrection p. 10. Of our former Book that they represent it as if we had said it of the Nature and being of man as in us to be discharged in our Resurrection p. 11. And whereas we charged them with denying the Humanity of Christ as to its being now in him they give it the go-by answering onely that they never denied the Man Christ for his flesh is their food p. 14. Whereas they had before denied him to have any other Body then his Church p. 8. And to our saying that Christ is not really and personally in the believer as in Heaven but by Faith they let go the words personally and as in Heaven in their answer and traduce us as denying any real being of him by Faith in the believer p. 14. More such like dealings thou mayst find in p. 15. and 18. and divers others 6. They carry their designes by reproaches Nick-names and abusive expressions in which also much hatred malice and spite against us is made evident to be in them and so that they are far from sinlessenesse to this purpose it is that in their Title page and Post-script they Nick-name us Calling us 1. Teachers of the People called Moorians or Manifestarians and called by some Free-willers and Independants which what can it proceed from but their hatred of us and indignation against us Seeing 1. The Names we own not nor are the People we Teach so called as Moorians that we know of T. M sen it seems for affirming not of himself as his own but from the Testimony of Christ and his Spirit recorded in the Scriptures that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the World and gave himself a ransom for all men and is by virtue thereof the Mediator of God and men the propitiation for the sins of the whole World and extends to men meanes leading them to Repentance and is ready to receive such as in the means are prevailed with to believe and this a good ground and motive to Repentance Faith Love c. Was by some that opposed those truths standered and called Papists or Arminian and some of the same mind with him in those truths were by means of a certain Manciple in one of the Colledges that turned Almanack-maker and reproachfully devising that Name called Moorians by some drunkards profane and cavilling persons but never owned by him nor by any of his friends much less by us or the people we teach nor do we know of any civil people or others these revilers excepted that say or write of us or of any people that they are the people called Moorians as these men call themselves in divers of their writings the Quakers the people called Quakers which makes it lawful for us also without reproach to give them that name by way of distinction in our speaking or writing of them as the names Herodians Sadduces and Pharisees are given in the Scripture to and were owned by those people 's so called without reproach to them And the rather because the Name Quakers fathers their Doctrine upon no man as the name Moorian doth nor charges it with any particular evil Opinion as the other name Manifestarian and Free-Willers import though had they been thereby wronged and reproached yet the Spirit of Truth would have led them not to return reviling for reviling reproach for reproach and to joyn hands with drunkards and others so that herein they are convicted to be sinners being guilty of reviling As also in that 2. They add or Manifestarians as if Moorian and Manifestarian were the same with them this is another of their spiteful reproaches against
partaker for a time that he might die for us That through Death he might destroy him that had the power of Death c. 3. To their parenchesis or a humane body we further say Doth the Light in them tell them that carnal and a body of Flesh and Bones and a humane body is alwayes one and the same Let us see if it be not darknesse Humane is alwayes used for the Nature or kind of man as Gods Creature as distinguished from other kinds of Creatures And so a humane body is the body of a man one that is verily a man whether sinful and mortal or not so either the one or the other And so the Body of Adam in his Innocency was humane the body of a man he was verily man yet sinless and so not subject to or in a state of Death though capable of becoming Immortal or mortal but when by sinning he fell from God then he became sinfult and mortal And such are all that by natural propagation come from him as of and from him while in this body not changed by Death yet still humane the nature or kinde remains though degenerated and corrupt God made man upright and t is man still that hath sought out inventions and is become carnal sold under sin Ecles 7. 21. with Gen. 5. 1. 2. and Chap. 8. 21. But the second Adam our Lord Jesus Christ is not a carnal but Spiritual man even from the first of his being made man for though his Body prepared for and taken by him when the word was made flesh was humane of mankinde and so he was a very man Yet he came not by propagation from Adam but though made of a woman of the seed of Abraham and so of Adam of whom Abraham was yet it was in a supernatural way a work of new Creation by the operation of the holy Ghost in the womb of a Virgin that had not known man and was holy being anointed of God with the Holy Ghost and power even in and from his conception and Birth And so that holy thing even before born of her and when born and alwayes without sin yet not Immortal but for a time partakers of Flesh and Blood as the Natural Children of Adam and because therein he was made subject to our infirmities that came on us naturally or as a natural heritage from Adam by reason of sin yet without sin he was said to be made in the likeness of sinful Flesh and his body might be said in some sence to be made a natural body as being partakers with us of Flesh and Blood and so mortal though not in every sence or in a full sence as the naturall Children of Adam are Yet to esteem him sinful Flesh or his body a carnal Body even then when he was on Earth partakers of Flesh and Blood and suffered in the Flesh we account blasphemie much more to esteem his raised and Glorified body in Heaven a carnal body For in his Resurrection form the dead all that weakness and mortality of the Flesh that came on the Nature of man by the first Adams sin and fall which he for a time was subject to in being partakers with us of Flesh Blood it was put off from him that he should no more return to it And so his body is become in a full and Glorious sence Spiritual Gloriously filled with the Spirit of Life and Power yea Immortal a Glorious body he being therein glorified with the Fathers own self and all by vertue of that his once suffering for our sins in the Fâ—esh in which he shed his blood and therein powered out his Soul unto Death laying down his Natural Mortal and Adam-like Life in the Flesh that he might take it again in the Spirit and Glory of the Father by which he was quickened raised from the dead now no more to return to corruption Yet still this raised and Glorious body is humane the body of a man even the man Christ Jesus having Flesh and bones hands and feet which by way of distinction from others and eminency above them is called his flâ—sh and his bones And had these men believed either the great Mystery as now revealed that God was manifested in the flesh in the words being made flesh and dwelling amongst men or the Resurrection of the body of Christ that dyed they would neither have cavelled at the denying his body to be carnal as if it could not stand with the acknowledgement of this man continuing for ever nor have spoken so contemptuously of the Glorious body of Christ And so neither would they have added this following query Is not a fleshly body Carnal To which we further Answer 1. Fleshly and carnal do not alwayes signify the same thing in Scripture for we read of a heart of flesh and fleshly Tables of the Heart Ezek. 36. 26. 2 Cor. 3. 3. whereby fleshly cannot be meant carnal but tender and fit to receive his impression or writing as opposed to a stony hard or carnal heart And though sometimes such expressions as to be flesh or fleshly named after it may be used to signify the weakness and brittleness of the outward man or a helpless withering worthlesse and decaying state which may stand with carnality in Scripture sence though distinct from it because all flesh in its present state is as Grass and the goodlinesse thereof as the flower of the Field fading and withering but the word of the Lord that was made flesh who is the spiritual and heavenly man and he abides for ever Yea though also sometimes a fleshly Mind and fleshly Lusts are equivalent with carnal mindedness and lusts as Rom. 8. 5. to 8. Col. 2. 18. 1 Pet. 2. 11 Yet 2. To have flesh and to be fleshly or named after it is two things whether we take flesh as signifying the outward man or body of man that hath flesh and bones and that whether as natural from Adam or as raised from the dead for there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body and both have flesh though not of or in the same quality or if we take flesh as Signifying the natural Sinfulness or carnal mind as the word is used for both yet to have flesh in either sence and to be fleshly or named after the flesh are not the same nor alwayes meeting in the same person The Apostles did live and walk in the flesh or natural body yet did not war after the flesh nor was fleshly or carnal in their knowings speakings or actings 2 Cor. 10. 3 4. with chap. 1 12 13 and 5. 16. Gal 2 20. with Phil. 1 2â— 24. and yet also they had flesh in the last sence even natural sinfulnesse and carnality still dwelling in them in their flesh members or outward man as from Adam though they were not reckoned after it nor did walk in or after it but did mind and walk in and after the spirit and so were not carnal but Spiritual
when nor what Bodies they have before they die yea according to this their imagination the resurrection of the unjust is usually or often first contrary to the order of the Resurrection of the dead witnessed in the Scriptures of truth and there may be also many Resurrections of both the just and the unjust whereas the Scriptures mention but one a Resurrection not many Resurrections and that of the dead both of the just and unjust but every man in his own order but more need not here be added to shew the filthiness of this Satanical Dream the mention of it is enough with what hath been already said to shew the Dreamers to be denyers of the Resurrection of the Bodies of men that die in Adam that is after the natural or Bodily death and so of the Resurrection of the dead affirmed and shewed in the Scripture and to evince the truth of that Doctrine against all their endeavours to overthrow it yeâ— something further we shall add to this subject in answer to their next Question Quest 18. And whether the wicked upon whom after Death Judgement is come whose Souls are in Hell must afterward come out of Hell again to receive a second Judgement Ans This Question needs no other answer but the mention of that Scripture Rev. 20. 12 13. which speaking prophetically of the final and Eternal Judgement saith expresly That Death and Hell delivered up the dead which were in them and they were judged every one according to his works ther 's death and hell delivering up their Prisoners to Judgement But because in this last Question especially they manifest their horrible Corruption and infidelity about the Doctrine of the Resurrection of the dead and Eternal Judgement and what Deriders and Scoffers of both they be even against the plainest assertions of Scripture as in the fifteenth Question they are of Christs personal coming the second time and that we may further bear witnesse to the Truth denyed and reproached by them for the good of others we shall here add something further in return to this Question also noting the palpable wickednesse of the intention and scope of it and the falshood and folly they are found in in their pursuit of such a wicked enterprise 1. The intention and scope of it is to fasten an error upon the Doctrine of the resurrection of the dead and their coming forth to an Eternal Judgement after death viz. That if so then the wicked must come out of hell again after sentenced and sent thither and thereby to give a total overthrow to that doctrine of the resurrection of the dead Bodies of men and their coming forth to Eternal judgement after the natural and bodily death and so to make God a lyar even in those his most plain and full manifestations of the Truth by the Son himself who having declared the powerful efficacy of his voice as now speaking from heaven in the glorious Gospel for making those dead in sins and trespasses to hear and to the quickening and preserving in life those that in hearing hear and said that hour is coming and now is John 5. 25. he biddeth them vers 28. not marvel at that for the hour is coming he saith not as before and now is but onely that it is coming and in leaving out that clause and now is having mentioned it in the former declaration he fully implies that the hour here spoken of in the 28. vers now is not but certainly cometh after the forementioned hour or time that was then begun even when God shall send us Jesus who before was preached to us as Acts 3. 20. with Mat. 24. 14. See the instruction to the living from the consideration of the future state of the dead by T. M. Junior pages 15 16 17 18 19. the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves in the dust of the earth and in the disappearing state of death shall hear his voice and shall come forth namely out of their graves they shall be wholly freed and made alive from the first death Hos 13. 14. 1 Cor. 15. 22. they that have done good shall come forth unto the Resurrection of life and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of Damnation for even death and hell shall deliver up the dead that are in them and they shall be judged every one according to his works as before is shewed This is that which the scope of this question is to deny and so consequently that Christ is risen from the dead for if the dead rise not then is not Christ risen and so in the denyal of this the Apostles whole Preaching is rendred vain and faith in Christ as Preached by them vain also yea they are therein proclamed false witnesses of God because they have testified of him that he raised up Christ whom he raised not up if so be the dead rise not 1 Cor. 15. 12. 15. 2. In their pursuit of this end they make lies and mistakes their desence that which they first suppose and take for granted as that in which their chief strength lies is neither granted by us nor so expressed in the Scripture but according to the import of it in their query very erroneous viz. that judgement is come upon the wicked after death now that by is come they mean is now already come as soon as they are dead and that by Judgement they mean the whole of the judgement is clear by their bringing it to disprove and deride a coming forth again to any other or further judgement and so it s very false for though judgement may come upon them in this life and their death is a terrible Judgement it proves so accidentally to them through their misimprovement of their time because it cuts them off from further space of repentance they being from thence sealed up and reserved as Prisoners in the Pit to the judgement of the great day of Christ yet neither is the one or the other that great and Eternal judgement unto which all the ungodly that continue such till death are reserved to be punished nor doth that seize on them till that day of judgement whence it is alwayes truly called the wrath to come and not that is already come upon any and so much is plain in that Heb. 9. 27. with vers 28. to which they would seem to allude especially if compared with other Scriptures see the text as it is appointed to men once to die he speaks of men indefinitely and so of the whole kind for all shall once dye though some shall not sleep in death but suffere a sudden change in which both death and resurrection shall be accomplished upon them in a moment But after this the judgement he saith not that then or as these that after this the judgement is come as if it were already come upon such of them as are dead or should come upon any that die before the rest at least of their